Re: Tiller slop [was Cal 36 parts]

Fred, we had a similar problem on our Cal 29. My solution was to build up the sides of the tiller using fiberglass cloth and resin. This provided the additional advantage of keeping the laminations together longer. While I was at it, I over-bored the bolt holes, filled them with thickened epoxy, then drilled for correct bolt size. The combination meant that not all the compression force was borne by the wood fibers, so the tiller did not continue to compress over time. I think that's a lot easier than trying to fix the metal parts. All the best, Alfred Poor 1973 Tartan 34C #288 "Jambalaya" = = = = = = Mike, The width of the casting that my tiller head slips over is 1 7/8". The outside diameter of the rudder head casting is 3 1/4". If these are consistent with your pieces I'd sure like to get them. My challenge is that the I.D. of the tang on the rudder casting is worn so that I have almost 6" of endplay on the tiller before the rudder moves. I have thought about attempting to crush the ends of the tang to close the 1/16" or so gap, or possibly taking the two pieces to a machine shop and having them built up and remachined. What does the group think? Another question, is my rudder likely to sink or float if I remove the head casting to deal with this challenge? Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma

Fred, We applied the same overdrill/fill/proper drill techniques on our cal-40 with great results when I laminated a new tiller. Something to look for if the yoke is sloppy are stress fractures in the metal where the tangs meet the cap body. Mike M. From: Alfred Poor <ap… [at] verizon.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Jan 30, 2012 14:17:29 GMT+00:00 Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [was Cal 36 parts] Fred, we had a similar problem on our Cal 29. My solution was to build up the sides of the tiller using fiberglass cloth and resin. This provided the additional advantage of keeping the laminations together longer. While I was at it, I over-bored the bolt holes, filled them with thickened epoxy, then drilled for correct bolt size. The combination meant that not all the compression force was borne by the wood fibers, so the tiller did not continue to compress over time. I think that's a lot easier than trying to fix the metal parts. All the best, Alfred Poor 1973 Tartan 34C #288 "Jambalaya" = = = = = = Mike, The width of the casting that my tiller head slips over is 1 7/8". The outside diameter of the rudder head casting is 3 1/4". If these are consistent with your pieces I'd sure like to get them. My challenge is that the I.D. of the tang on the rudder casting is worn so that I have almost 6" of endplay on the tiller before the rudder moves. I have thought about attempting to crush the ends of the tang to close the 1/16" or so gap, or possibly taking the two pieces to a machine shop and having them built up and remachined. What does the group think? Another question, is my rudder likely to sink or float if I remove the head casting to deal with this challenge? Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma

I would secure the rudder and be prepared to recover it if you are still in the water,when we droped the rudder on our Cal 30-2 it was waterlogged and extremely heavy and would have sunk. In our case theCal was out of the water. From: Mike McElhaney <mi… [at] wahini.org> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Mon, Jan 30, 2012 9:53 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [was Cal 36 parts] Fred, We applied the same overdrill/fill/proper drill techniques on our cal-40 with great results when I laminated a new tiller. Something to look for if the yoke is sloppy are stress fractures in the metal where the tangs meet the cap body. Mike M. From: Alfred Poor <ap… [at] verizon.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Jan 30, 2012 14:17:29 GMT+00:00 Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [was Cal 36 parts] Fred, we had a similar problem on our Cal 29. My solution was to build up the sides of the tiller using fiberglass cloth and resin. This provided the additional advantage of keeping the laminations together longer. While I was at it, I over-bored the bolt holes, filled them with thickened epoxy, then drilled for correct bolt size. The combination meant that not all the compression force was borne by the wood fibers, so the tiller did not continue to compress over time. I think that’s a lot easier than trying to fix the metal parts. All the best, Alfred Poor 1973 Tartan 34C #288 “Jambalaya” = = = = = = Mike, The width of the casting that my tiller head slips over is 1 7/8". The outside diameter of the rudder head casting is 3 1/4". If these are consistent with your pieces I'd sure like to get them. My challenge is that the I.D. of the tang on the rudder casting is worn so that I have almost 6" of endplay on the tiller before the rudder moves. I have thought about attempting to crush the ends of the tang to close the 1/16" or so gap, or possibly taking the two pieces to a machine shop and having them built up and remachined. What does the group think? Another question, is my rudder likely to sink or float if I remove the head casting to deal with this challenge? Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma

I think I am following the original questions… SLOPPY Tiller I’m understanding the cast rudder head, at the top (rt hand side of picture) has worn, so the tiller bracket fits loosely? If this is the case, then why not just use a shim? a fender washer (even a Teflon one) filed to take up the gap? [cid:image002.png@01CCDF35.4A084B20] The above picture shows two modifications I performed, one; I went to a smaller diameter rudder post, so a machined insert, and two; the sawn gap at the pinch bolts was opened up (cut larger) to increase head clamp forces. [cid:im… [at] 01CCDF36.AAB35810] RUDDER HEAD REMOVAL, Be careful, people on this list have lost rudders when the cap was removed, so take precautions if you decide to remove the head. Cheers, [cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls = = = = = = Mike, The width of the casting that my tiller head slips over is 1 7/8". The outside diameter of the rudder head casting is 3 1/4". If these are consistent with your pieces I'd sure like to get them. My challenge is that the I.D. of the tang on the rudder casting is worn so that I have almost 6" of endplay on the tiller before the rudder moves. I have thought about attempting to crush the ends of the tang to close the 1/16" or so gap, or possibly taking the two pieces to a machine shop and having them built up and remachined. What does the group think? Another question, is my rudder likely to sink or float if I remove the head casting to deal with this challenge? Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma

Note the portion in your left palm, where the tiller attaches by a through bolt, and extends towards your palm for steering. I found that area on mine is tapered, narrower towards the top..( ie at the heel of your left hand) and thicker towerds the rudder post. When the tiller was lowered all the way down, there was no play. When the tiller was raisd above its natural resting position, there was significant play. Since I am taller and stand while racing, I had significant play almost all the time. A shim only helped a little, since the shim takes up no play on the side of the steering head forward of the attaching bolt. My solution was to replace the tiller with one which had a higher rise, so that it was resting all the way down at the tiller head when I stood to steer. I suggest looking to see if the helmsperson is raising the tiller above its natural resting position when steering. That tiller head is designed to be used with the tiller all the way down. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: ti… [at] ch2m.com Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:44:21 +0000 Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [was Cal 36 parts] I think I am following the original questions… SLOPPY Tiller I’m understanding the cast rudder head, at the top (rt hand side of picture) has worn, so the tiller bracket fits loosely? If this is the case, then why not just use a shim? a fender washer (even a Teflon one) filed to take up the gap? The above picture shows two modifications I performed, one; I went to a smaller diameter rudder post, so a machined insert, and two; the sawn gap at the pinch bolts was opened up (cut larger) to increase head clamp forces. RUDDER HEAD REMOVAL, Be careful, people on this list have lost rudders when the cap was removed, so take precautions if you decide to remove the head. Cheers, Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls = = = = = = Mike, The width of the casting that my tiller head slips over is 1 7/8". The outside diameter of the rudder head casting is 3 1/4". If these are consistent with your pieces I'd sure like to get them. My challenge is that the I.D. of the tang on the rudder casting is worn so that I have almost 6" of endplay on the tiller before the rudder moves. I have thought about attempting to crush the ends of the tang to close the 1/16" or so gap, or possibly taking the two pieces to a machine shop and having them built up and remachined. What does the group think? Another question, is my rudder likely to sink or float if I remove the head casting to deal with this challenge? Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma

I understand better. The higher rise built into the tiller might help, I did not foresee this problem as we always use the maximum mechanical advantage on the rudder with the tiller low (on a spacer), engaging the length of the rudder head, then using a hiking stick. We sit to either side to maximize vision and weight balance. If we do race with the tiller "up", I can only envision doing such in light downwind circumstances. I'll also admit that we have (removable) spacers on the underside of the tiller bracket stopper bar, that does not allow the tiller handle to drop fully, and so our "normal" full down position is with the spacer hitting the top of the rudder head, instead of the tiller stop bar. You should have a stopper bar, the athwartships bar on the tiller bracket that hits / stops the tiller on the top of the rudder cap. Sorry no picture of this shim (ours is a stainless hex nut for a 1/4" diameter bolt). SHIMMED UP FOR RACING - Downwind. 3 cushions glued and sewn together for maximum vision height the "Maxi Pad" [cid:image008.jpg@01CCDF50.2F38C890] Bean bag for the trimmer and squall watch. [cid:image011.jpg@01CCDF50.2F38C890] Otherwise upwind with the extension Leeward for starting vision [cid:image009.jpg@01CCDF4E.C6C4A140] Windward for course vision and weight. [cid:image010.jpg@01CCDF4E.C6C4A140] Cheers, [cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 12:06 PM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [was Cal 36 parts] Note the portion in your left palm, where the tiller attaches by a through bolt, and extends towards your palm for steering. I found that area on mine is tapered, narrower towards the top..( ie at the heel of your left hand) and thicker towerds the rudder post. When the tiller was lowered all the way down, there was no play. When the tiller was raisd above its natural resting position, there was significant play. Since I am taller and stand while racing, I had significant play almost all the time. A shim only helped a little, since the shim takes up no play on the side of the steering head forward of the attaching bolt. My solution was to replace the tiller with one which had a higher rise, so that it was resting all the way down at the tiller head when I stood to steer. I suggest looking to see if the helmsperson is raising the tiller above its natural resting position when steering. That tiller head is designed to be used with the tiller all the way down. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: ti… [at] ch2m.com Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:44:21 +0000 Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [was Cal 36 parts] I think I am following the original questions... SLOPPY Tiller I'm understanding the cast rudder head, at the top (rt hand side of picture) has worn, so the tiller bracket fits loosely? If this is the case, then why not just use a shim? a fender washer (even a Teflon one) filed to take up the gap? [cid:image002.png@01CCDF4A.2DF5A8F0] The above picture shows two modifications I performed, one; I went to a smaller diameter rudder post, so a machined insert, and two; the sawn gap at the pinch bolts was opened up (cut larger) to increase head clamp forces. [cid:image003.png@01CCDF4A.2DF5A8F0] RUDDER HEAD REMOVAL, Be careful, people on this list have lost rudders when the cap was removed, so take precautions if you decide to remove the head. Cheers, [cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls = = = = = = Mike, The width of the casting that my tiller head slips over is 1 7/8". The outside diameter of the rudder head casting is 3 1/4". If these are consistent with your pieces I'd sure like to get them. My challenge is that the I.D. of the tang on the rudder casting is worn so that I have almost 6" of endplay on the tiller before the rudder moves. I have thought about attempting to crush the ends of the tang to close the 1/16" or so gap, or possibly taking the two pieces to a machine shop and having them built up and remachined. What does the group think? Another question, is my rudder likely to sink or float if I remove the head casting to deal with this challenge? Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma

On 1/30/2012 3:05 PM, r good wrote: > > Note the portion in your left palm, where the tiller attaches by a > through bolt, and extends towards your palm for steering. I found > that area on mine is tapered, narrower towards the top..( ie at the > heel of your left hand) and thicker towerds the rudder post. When > the tiller was lowered all the way down, there was no play. When > the tiller was raisd above its natural resting position, there was > significant play. Since I am taller and stand while racing, I had > significant play almost all the time. A shim only helped a little, > since the shim takes up no play on the side of the steering head > forward of the attaching bolt. My solution was to replace the tiller > with one which had a higher rise, so that it was resting all the way > down at the tiller head when I stood to steer. I suggest looking to > see if the helmsperson is raising the tiller above its natural resting > position when steering. That tiller head is designed to be used with > the tiller all the way down. This is exactly the problem I have on my other boat. Reggie has described the problem and solution very well. On my boat, the bronze fitting at the top of the rudder post and the matching one on the tiller are designed to be fully engaged and to have the best mechanical joint when the tiller is fully lowered. The side pieces on the tiller capture the square fitting on the rudder post by surrounding it. As you raise the tiller, the turning force is less and less transmitted via the pieces on either side of the tiller, and more and more by the pivot bolt. It wears & gets sloppy. The helms-person curses. So my long-term plan is to steam-bend or laminate a new tiller so the steering end is up at a good hand height, while the rudder-post end is still in the down position, Meanwhile, I tend to steer with my foot as much as possible, and when the wind picks up, to keep the tiller as low as possible. I've been steering this boat for 43 years and cursing the slop for most of that period, so I'm not exactly rushing into this project. Meanwhile, I've become pretty adept at steering with my foot. Chris Campbell

I have not purchased a tiller for a few years for the Cal 40, but last time they were <$100 from H&L in California. They will make any shape you want, in any dimensions... and already varnished. H & L Marine Woodwork Inc, 2965 E Harcourt St, (323) 636-1718 [cid:image002.png@01CCDF54.290EBB60] Cheers, [cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 1:30 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [was Cal 36 parts] On 1/30/2012 3:05 PM, r good wrote: Note the portion in your left palm, where the tiller attaches by a through bolt, and extends towards your palm for steering. I found that area on mine is tapered, narrower towards the top..( ie at the heel of your left hand) and thicker towerds the rudder post. When the tiller was lowered all the way down, there was no play. When the tiller was raisd above its natural resting position, there was significant play. Since I am taller and stand while racing, I had significant play almost all the time. A shim only helped a little, since the shim takes up no play on the side of the steering head forward of the attaching bolt. My solution was to replace the tiller with one which had a higher rise, so that it was resting all the way down at the tiller head when I stood to steer. I suggest looking to see if the helmsperson is raising the tiller above its natural resting position when steering. That tiller head is designed to be used with the tiller all the way down. This is exactly the problem I have on my other boat. Reggie has described the problem and solution very well. On my boat, the bronze fitting at the top of the rudder post and the matching one on the tiller are designed to be fully engaged and to have the best mechanical joint when the tiller is fully lowered. The side pieces on the tiller capture the square fitting on the rudder post by surrounding it. As you raise the tiller, the turning force is less and less transmitted via the pieces on either side of the tiller, and more and more by the pivot bolt. It wears & gets sloppy. The helms-person curses. So my long-term plan is to steam-bend or laminate a new tiller so the steering end is up at a good hand height, while the rudder-post end is still in the down position, Meanwhile, I tend to steer with my foot as much as possible, and when the wind picks up, to keep the tiller as low as possible. I've been steering this boat for 43 years and cursing the slop for most of that period, so I'm not exactly rushing into this project. Meanwhile, I've become pretty adept at steering with my foot. Chris Campbell

Hi, All. Here is Reggie's reference tiller(s) - the F/G shapes. I use the same thing on my CAL 25s. It has the added benefit of having the driver end of the tiller above the cockpit seats when one is tacking. Timm, my pictures are never near the quality of yours. You ever use that poo-poo cushion at parties? Looks like it could produce quite an output. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 4:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [tiller height] I understand better. The higher rise built into the tiller might help, I did not foresee this problem as we always use the maximum mechanical advantage on the rudder with the tiller low (on a spacer), engaging the length of the rudder head, then using a hiking stick. We sit to either side to maximize vision and weight balance. If we do race with the tiller "up", I can only envision doing such in light downwind circumstances. I'll also admit that we have (removable) spacers on the underside of the tiller bracket stopper bar, that does not allow the tiller handle to drop fully, and so our "normal" full down position is with the spacer hitting the top of the rudder head, instead of the tiller stop bar. You should have a stopper bar, the athwartships bar on the tiller bracket that hits / stops the tiller on the top of the rudder cap. Sorry no picture of this shim (ours is a stainless hex nut for a 1/4" diameter bolt). SHIMMED UP FOR RACING - Downwind. 3 cushions glued and sewn together for maximum vision height the "Maxi Pad" [Description: cid:image008.jpg@01CCDF50.2F38C890] Bean bag for the trimmer and squall watch. [Description: cid:image011.jpg@01CCDF50.2F38C890] Otherwise upwind with the extension Leeward for starting vision [Description: cid:image009.jpg@01CCDF4E.C6C4A140] Windward for course vision and weight. [Description: cid:image010.jpg@01CCDF4E.C6C4A140] Cheers, [Description: cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of r good Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 12:06 PM To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [was Cal 36 parts] Note the portion in your left palm, where the tiller attaches by a through bolt, and extends towards your palm for steering. I found that area on mine is tapered, narrower towards the top..( ie at the heel of your left hand) and thicker towerds the rudder post. When the tiller was lowered all the way down, there was no play. When the tiller was raisd above its natural resting position, there was significant play. Since I am taller and stand while racing, I had significant play almost all the time. A shim only helped a little, since the shim takes up no play on the side of the steering head forward of the attaching bolt. My solution was to replace the tiller with one which had a higher rise, so that it was resting all the way down at the tiller head when I stood to steer. I suggest looking to see if the helmsperson is raising the tiller above its natural resting position when steering. That tiller head is designed to be used with the tiller all the way down. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: ti… [at] ch2m.com Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 18:44:21 +0000 Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [was Cal 36 parts] I think I am following the original questions... SLOPPY Tiller I'm understanding the cast rudder head, at the top (rt hand side of picture) has worn, so the tiller bracket fits loosely? If this is the case, then why not just use a shim? a fender washer (even a Teflon one) filed to take up the gap? [Description: cid:image002.png@01CCDF4A.2DF5A8F0] The above picture shows two modifications I performed, one; I went to a smaller diameter rudder post, so a machined insert, and two; the sawn gap at the pinch bolts was opened up (cut larger) to increase head clamp forces. [Description: cid:image003.png@01CCDF4A.2DF5A8F0] RUDDER HEAD REMOVAL, Be careful, people on this list have lost rudders when the cap was removed, so take precautions if you decide to remove the head. Cheers, [Description: cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls = = = = = = Mike, The width of the casting that my tiller head slips over is 1 7/8". The outside diameter of the rudder head casting is 3 1/4". If these are consistent with your pieces I'd sure like to get them. My challenge is that the I.D. of the tang on the rudder casting is worn so that I have almost 6" of endplay on the tiller before the rudder moves. I have thought about attempting to crush the ends of the tang to close the 1/16" or so gap, or possibly taking the two pieces to a machine shop and having them built up and remachined. What does the group think? Another question, is my rudder likely to sink or float if I remove the head casting to deal with this challenge? Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma

see http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|118|297677|76313&id=76297 Several years ago I purchased a new tiller from H $ L Marine, similar to the one pictured. They have lots of profiles or can custom build. They come varnished. When I mounted it, I drilled only one mounting holem attached barcket and snugged it up, then adjusted the height up and down to my satisfaction before drilling the other holes Pretty shiney new tiller and no slop for $100? can't beat it Take a look at this table and pictures. http://www.apsltd.com/c-262-woodtillerscarbonfiberwheels.aspx Notice the CAL models listed there. notice the rise for the CAL 27. I believe my boat came to me with the incorrect tiller. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: cc… [at] lsnm.org Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:30:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [was Cal 36 parts] On 1/30/2012 3:05 PM, r good wrote: Note the portion in your left palm, where the tiller attaches by a through bolt, and extends towards your palm for steering. I found that area on mine is tapered, narrower towards the top..( ie at the heel of your left hand) and thicker towerds the rudder post. When the tiller was lowered all the way down, there was no play. When the tiller was raisd above its natural resting position, there was significant play. Since I am taller and stand while racing, I had significant play almost all the time. A shim only helped a little, since the shim takes up no play on the side of the steering head forward of the attaching bolt. My solution was to replace the tiller with one which had a higher rise, so that it was resting all the way down at the tiller head when I stood to steer. I suggest looking to see if the helmsperson is raising the tiller above its natural resting position when steering. That tiller head is designed to be used with the tiller all the way down. This is exactly the problem I have on my other boat. Reggie has described the problem and solution very well. On my boat, the bronze fitting at the top of the rudder post and the matching one on the tiller are designed to be fully engaged and to have the best mechanical joint when the tiller is fully lowered. The side pieces on the tiller capture the square fitting on the rudder post by surrounding it. As you raise the tiller, the turning force is less and less transmitted via the pieces on either side of the tiller, and more and more by the pivot bolt. It wears & gets sloppy. The helms-person curses. So my long-term plan is to steam-bend or laminate a new tiller so the steering end is up at a good hand height, while the rudder-post end is still in the down position, Meanwhile, I tend to steer with my foot as much as possible, and when the wind picks up, to keep the tiller as low as possible. I've been steering this boat for 43 years and cursing the slop for most of that period, so I'm not exactly rushing into this project. Meanwhile, I've become pretty adept at steering with my foot. Chris Campbell

Here's what I was describing yesterday. The cross brace on the tiller bracket is a stop. A slight shim under this allows the tiller handle to clear the cockpit well easily, and still keeps the tiller bracket engaged with the rudder cap, so no slop. Not elegant maybe, but a $0.20 solution plus duct tape. This has lasted @ 11 years and somewhere in the 50,0000 mile range.... pretty good value. [cid:image004.jpg@01CCE002.86BBC1F0] With the tape removed and "shim" exposed. [cid:image006.jpg@01CCE002.86BBC1F0] Cheers, [cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls The above picture shows two modifications I performed, one; I went to a smaller diameter rudder post, so a machined insert, and two; the sawn gap at the pinch bolts was opened up (cut larger) to increase head clamp forces. [cid:image003.png@01CCE001.648B4660]

Timm, I note that you have the second through-bolt that goes through the collar and the rudder post. I call this the "safety" in case the pressure fitting in the collar cracks (not rare). I point this out because the part I got from Mike does not have the hole. I thought the hole was standard equipment, but it may indeed be an after market mod. Are you sure you don't want to go fine thread on your spacer nut? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 1:25 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [tiller height] Here's what I was describing yesterday. The cross brace on the tiller bracket is a stop. A slight shim under this allows the tiller handle to clear the cockpit well easily, and still keeps the tiller bracket engaged with the rudder cap, so no slop. Not elegant maybe, but a $0.20 solution plus duct tape. This has lasted @ 11 years and somewhere in the 50,0000 mile range.... pretty good value. [Description: cid:image004.jpg@01CCE002.86BBC1F0] With the tape removed and "shim" exposed. [Description: cid:image006.jpg@01CCE002.86BBC1F0] Cheers, [Description: cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls The above picture shows two modifications I performed, one; I went to a smaller diameter rudder post, so a machined insert, and two; the sawn gap at the pinch bolts was opened up (cut larger) to increase head clamp forces. [Description: cid:image003.png@01CCE001.648B4660]

On 1/31/2012 3:21 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: > > Timm, I note that you have the second through-bolt that goes through > the collar and the rudder post. I call this the "safety" in case the > pressure fitting in the collar cracks (not rare). I point this out > because the part I got from Mike does not have the hole. I thought > the hole was standard equipment, but it may indeed be an after market mod. > I've always wondered about that. My other boat's bronze fitting has what appears to be a steel bolt as the "safety," with the head cut off and the thread end flush (it must be tapped into the bronze fitting). It looks like it would be daunting to extract so I've never tried, but the subject has given me many moments of quiet contemplation during dull meetings. The compression bolt is always a bit suspect. Early on, I wondered if my fitting had a Woodruff key or some similar device to prevent rotation, but I suspect that this is the function of the "safety" bolt. But Timm's pictures suggest a way to get a better angle on the tiller--have somebody weld up a stainless tiller fitting that captures the rudder post fitting while giving a tilted-up angle on the tiller itself. I'm in fresh water where bronze + stainless are a suitable combination. Chris Campbell > > Are you sure you don't want to go fine thread on your spacer nut? > > Cheers > > Charlie > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > *On Behalf Of *ti… [at] ch2m.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 31, 2012 1:25 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [tiller height] > > > > > Here's what I was describing yesterday. The cross brace on the tiller > bracket is a stop. > > A slight shim under this allows the tiller handle to clear the cockpit > well easily, and still keeps the tiller bracket engaged with the > rudder cap, so no slop. > > Not elegant maybe, but a $0.20 solution plus duct tape. This has > lasted @ 11 years and somewhere in the 50,0000 mile range.... pretty > good value. > > Description: cid:image004.jpg@01CCE002.86BBC1F0 > > With the tape removed and "shim" exposed. > > Description: cid:image006.jpg@01CCE002.86BBC1F0 > > Cheers, > > * * > > *Description: cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70*** > > *Timm Lessley* > > 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls > > The above picture shows two modifications I performed, one; I went to > a smaller diameter rudder post, so a machined insert, and two; the > sawn gap at the pinch bolts was opened up (cut larger) to increase > head clamp forces. > > Description: cid:image003.png@01CCE001.648B4660 > > > > >

We remove our High tech shim and use a low tech shim (thinner) when using the tiller pilot. The tiller pilot prefers to have the tiller "level" lower than a human driver. A "hardover" tiller pilot maneuver tends to lift the handle up instead of pushing it side to side it if the shim is too high.. Cheers, [cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 1:01 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [tiller height] On 1/31/2012 3:21 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: Timm, I note that you have the second through-bolt that goes through the collar and the rudder post. I call this the "safety" in case the pressure fitting in the collar cracks (not rare). I point this out because the part I got from Mike does not have the hole. I thought the hole was standard equipment, but it may indeed be an after market mod. I've always wondered about that. My other boat's bronze fitting has what appears to be a steel bolt as the "safety," with the head cut off and the thread end flush (it must be tapped into the bronze fitting). It looks like it would be daunting to extract so I've never tried, but the subject has given me many moments of quiet contemplation during dull meetings. The compression bolt is always a bit suspect. Early on, I wondered if my fitting had a Woodruff key or some similar device to prevent rotation, but I suspect that this is the function of the "safety" bolt. But Timm's pictures suggest a way to get a better angle on the tiller--have somebody weld up a stainless tiller fitting that captures the rudder post fitting while giving a tilted-up angle on the tiller itself. I'm in fresh water where bronze + stainless are a suitable combination. Chris Campbell Are you sure you don't want to go fine thread on your spacer nut? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 1:25 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [tiller height] Here's what I was describing yesterday. The cross brace on the tiller bracket is a stop. A slight shim under this allows the tiller handle to clear the cockpit well easily, and still keeps the tiller bracket engaged with the rudder cap, so no slop. Not elegant maybe, but a $0.20 solution plus duct tape. This has lasted @ 11 years and somewhere in the 50,0000 mile range.... pretty good value. [Description: cid:image004.jpg@01CCE002.86BBC1F0] With the tape removed and "shim" exposed. [Description: cid:image006.jpg@01CCE002.86BBC1F0] Cheers, [Description: cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls The above picture shows two modifications I performed, one; I went to a smaller diameter rudder post, so a machined insert, and two; the sawn gap at the pinch bolts was opened up (cut larger) to increase head clamp forces. [Description: cid:image003.png@01CCE001.648B4660]

I filled the post with expanding foam, then drilled the hole for the safety pin. The foam, was to add more buoyancy, and to hopefully keep water out from the inside of the post. [post] Then the post shim was match drilled (I made the new rudder with a smaller / thicker post.) [post_col] Smaller post and thinner NACA foil. [thick_th] Old verses new side profile, same area.. just less stall surfaces. [leading_] From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 1:01 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [tiller height] On 1/31/2012 3:21 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: Timm, I note that you have the second through-bolt that goes through the collar and the rudder post. I call this the "safety" in case the pressure fitting in the collar cracks (not rare). I point this out because the part I got from Mike does not have the hole. I thought the hole was standard equipment, but it may indeed be an after market mod. I've always wondered about that. My other boat's bronze fitting has what appears to be a steel bolt as the "safety," with the head cut off and the thread end flush (it must be tapped into the bronze fitting). It looks like it would be daunting to extract so I've never tried, but the subject has given me many moments of quiet contemplation during dull meetings. The compression bolt is always a bit suspect. Early on, I wondered if my fitting had a Woodruff key or some similar device to prevent rotation, but I suspect that this is the function of the "safety" bolt. But Timm's pictures suggest a way to get a better angle on the tiller--have somebody weld up a stainless tiller fitting that captures the rudder post fitting while giving a tilted-up angle on the tiller itself. I'm in fresh water where bronze + stainless are a suitable combination. Chris Campbell Are you sure you don't want to go fine thread on your spacer nut? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 1:25 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [tiller height] Here's what I was describing yesterday. The cross brace on the tiller bracket is a stop. A slight shim under this allows the tiller handle to clear the cockpit well easily, and still keeps the tiller bracket engaged with the rudder cap, so no slop. Not elegant maybe, but a $0.20 solution plus duct tape. This has lasted @ 11 years and somewhere in the 50,0000 mile range.... pretty good value. [Description: cid:image004.jpg@01CCE002.86BBC1F0] With the tape removed and "shim" exposed. [Description: cid:image006.jpg@01CCE002.86BBC1F0] Cheers, [Description: cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls The above picture shows two modifications I performed, one; I went to a smaller diameter rudder post, so a machined insert, and two; the sawn gap at the pinch bolts was opened up (cut larger) to increase head clamp forces. [Description: cid:image003.png@01CCE001.648B4660]

Timm, the closed cell foam is a great idea since the only way to get the water out of the post (without removing and replacing the rudder ashore) is to turn the boat over and shake it. I had to think about that one for a moment. I remember having a few antsy moments trying to get the position of the safety pin holes juusssttt right. Perfect fore and aft alignment of rudder and tiller, and having the height set just so the rudder cap sits properly on the post (with 2 or 3 possible shim positions. I also recall doing the fender washer shim with added hard rubber washer. Let's see. That hole position looks good. Yes, the one 1/64th inch diagonally up from that penciled "x". OK, hand me a brew and I'll drill the holes. Really helps to have a drill press available for these kinds of things (drilling into stainless on a rounded surface). Maybe my angst is what makes all my boat projects take so long. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 6:18 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [tiller height] I filled the post with expanding foam, then drilled the hole for the safety pin. The foam, was to add more buoyancy, and to hopefully keep water out from the inside of the post. [Description: post] Then the post shim was match drilled (I made the new rudder with a smaller / thicker post.) [Description: post_col] Smaller post and thinner NACA foil. [Description: thick_th] Old verses new side profile, same area.. just less stall surfaces. [Description: leading_] From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 1:01 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [tiller height] On 1/31/2012 3:21 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: Timm, I note that you have the second through-bolt that goes through the collar and the rudder post. I call this the "safety" in case the pressure fitting in the collar cracks (not rare). I point this out because the part I got from Mike does not have the hole. I thought the hole was standard equipment, but it may indeed be an after market mod. I've always wondered about that. My other boat's bronze fitting has what appears to be a steel bolt as the "safety," with the head cut off and the thread end flush (it must be tapped into the bronze fitting). It looks like it would be daunting to extract so I've never tried, but the subject has given me many moments of quiet contemplation during dull meetings. The compression bolt is always a bit suspect. Early on, I wondered if my fitting had a Woodruff key or some similar device to prevent rotation, but I suspect that this is the function of the "safety" bolt. But Timm's pictures suggest a way to get a better angle on the tiller--have somebody weld up a stainless tiller fitting that captures the rudder post fitting while giving a tilted-up angle on the tiller itself. I'm in fresh water where bronze + stainless are a suitable combination. Chris Campbell Are you sure you don't want to go fine thread on your spacer nut? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 1:25 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Tiller slop [tiller height] Here's what I was describing yesterday. The cross brace on the tiller bracket is a stop. A slight shim under this allows the tiller handle to clear the cockpit well easily, and still keeps the tiller bracket engaged with the rudder cap, so no slop. Not elegant maybe, but a $0.20 solution plus duct tape. This has lasted @ 11 years and somewhere in the 50,0000 mile range.... pretty good value. [Description: Description: cid:image004.jpg@01CCE002.86BBC1F0] With the tape removed and "shim" exposed. [Description: Description: cid:image006.jpg@01CCE002.86BBC1F0] Cheers, [Description: Description: cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls The above picture shows two modifications I performed, one; I went to a smaller diameter rudder post, so a machined insert, and two; the sawn gap at the pinch bolts was opened up (cut larger) to increase head clamp forces. [Description: Description: cid:image003.png@01CCE001.648B4660]

> Maybe my angst is what makes all my boat projects take so long.**** > > > Boat projects only take a boat week. There are 12 boat weeks in a year. Allen

On 1/31/2012 6:53 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: > > Maybe my angst is what makes all my boat projects take so long. > Or maybe it's the difference between sloppy work and a proper job. Chris Campbell > >