Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market

After spending far too many hours rooting and unlocking my new cell phone, next it was off to the android market. For those that race, this looks pretty interesting. https://market.android.com/details?id=com.embedia.regatta_basic&feature=also_installed_confirmation#?t=W251bGwsMSwyLDIwMCwiY29tLmVtYmVkaWEucmVnYXR0YV9iYXNpYyJd Enjoy. /ch

That's complicated. I will need to study it. Did you get it? How is it? I have BC Racer and it is good, easier to understand but lacks what I consider the most important function which is called TURN on a Garmin GPS. I think this new app has it. A word of warning on using GPS to time a start. You will be early as the GPS lags its position. In fact, you will be so early that it is probably not useful, I am thinking 50 to 100 feet off. There are some functions I would love to see so if anyone out there wants to build an app, talk to me. Basically, I want to see an app that will tell me, when I am sailing away from the line, when I should turn around and sail back to hit the line on time. You would have to store your speed and time to turn but then the phone could do the rest. Then you can adjust your course to hit the line just right. That calculation is difficult to do mentally when you sail in a lot of current. Allen On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:40 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > ** > > > After spending far too many hours rooting and unlocking my new cell > phone, next it was off to the android market. For those that race, > this looks pretty interesting. > > > https://market.android.com/details?id=com.embedia.regatta_basic&feature=also_installed_confirmation#?t=W251bGwsMSwyLDIwMCwiY29tLmVtYmVkaWEucmVnYXR0YV9iYXNpYyJd > > Enjoy. > > /ch > >

Comments in line....... On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:37 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > That's complicated. I will need to study it. Did you get it? How is it? > Nope, dont race, most on this list do, so figured I would pass it on. > > I have BC Racer and it is good, easier to understand but lacks what I > consider the most important function which is called TURN on a Garmin GPS. > I think this new app has it. > > A word of warning on using GPS to time a start. You will be early as the > GPS lags its position. In fact, you will be so early that it is probably > not useful, I am thinking 50 to 100 feet off. > > There are some functions I would love to see so if anyone out there wants > to build an app, talk to me. > > Basically, I want to see an app that will tell me, when I am sailing away > from the line, when I should turn around and sail back to hit the line on > time. You would have to store your speed and time to turn but then the > phone could do the rest. Then you can adjust your course to hit the line > just right. That calculation is difficult to do mentally when you sail in > a lot of current. > That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. See http://dmkyacht.com/ but they currently only support Apple. They are working on an android solution and when I offered them dev support.....the conversation ended. So it will be some time till it gets done. I dont code but from a previous time know some very good ones who would have loved to tackle this project. All in good time I guess. There was another device that I found that takes all the data input and transmits them via wifi but the front end was proprietary. ie: lots of money...:) /ch > Allen > > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 11:40 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> After spending far too many hours rooting and unlocking my new cell >> phone, next it was off to the android market. For those that race, >> this looks pretty interesting. >> >> >> https://market.android.com/details?id=com.embedia.regatta_basic&feature=also_installed_confirmation#?t=W251bGwsMSwyLDIwMCwiY29tLmVtYmVkaWEucmVnYXR0YV9iYXNpYyJd >> >> Enjoy. >> >> /ch >> > > > > -- /ch

> > That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. > Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all > the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. > > No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on speed at line during practice and time left. It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the errors cancel out. Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. Allen

sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 percent of the job. The rest is simple /ch On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. >> Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all >> the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. >> >> > No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a > practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at > where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed > to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This > practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you > start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are > at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at > practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or > late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn > is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your > practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to > start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late > starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a > little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on > speed at line during practice and time left. > > It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has > coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to > the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are > either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on > time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal > app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the > errors cancel out. > > Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon > as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. > > Allen > > > > > -- /ch

I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve is large and the market is probably small. I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But that is not enough to make more than beer money. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > ** > > > sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the > specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 > percent of the job. The rest is simple > > /ch > > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > >> >> >> That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. >>> Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all >>> the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. >>> >>> >> No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a >> practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at >> where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed >> to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This >> practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you >> start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are >> at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at >> practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or >> late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn >> is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your >> practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to >> start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late >> starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a >> little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on >> speed at line during practice and time left. >> >> It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has >> coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to >> the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are >> either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on >> time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal >> app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the >> errors cancel out. >> >> Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as >> soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. >> >> Allen >> >> >> >> > > > -- > /ch > > > >

Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me. Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! From: "Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve is large and the market is probably small. I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But that is not enough to make more than beer money. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 < ch… [at] gmail.com > wrote: sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 percent of the job. The rest is simple /ch On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards < al… [at] gmail.com > wrote: <blockquote> <blockquote> That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on speed at line during practice and time left. It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the errors cancel out. Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. Allen </blockquote> -- /ch </blockquote>

Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put together in Excel and won the race because of it. It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye. That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to the line? I think that would be the thing I want. I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the best winds. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote: > ** > > > Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing > Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS > and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line > between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the > Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me. > > > > Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have > "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. > > > > check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! > > ------------------------------ > > *From: *"Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To: *"Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent: *Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM > *Subject: *Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market > > > > I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is > because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and > knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and > will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit > there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort > for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve > is large and the market is probably small. > > I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and > create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are > going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I > appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing > another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. > > By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also > happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated > stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But > that is not enough to make more than beer money. > > Allen > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the >> specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 >> percent of the job. The rest is simple >> >> /ch >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com >> > wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the >>>> vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless >>>> setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. >>>> >>>> >>> No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a >>> practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at >>> where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed >>> to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This >>> practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you >>> start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are >>> at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at >>> practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or >>> late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn >>> is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your >>> practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to >>> start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late >>> starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a >>> little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on >>> speed at line during practice and time left. >>> >>> It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has >>> coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to >>> the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are >>> either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on >>> time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal >>> app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the >>> errors cancel out. >>> >>> Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as >>> soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. >>> >>> Allen >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> /ch >> >> >> > >

It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing watch that I had that cost about $50 _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put together in Excel and won the race because of it. It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye. That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to the line? I think that would be the thing I want. I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the best winds. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote: Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me. Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! _____ From: "Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve is large and the market is probably small. I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But that is not enough to make more than beer money. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 percent of the job. The rest is simple /ch On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on speed at line during practice and time left. It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the errors cancel out. Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. Allen -- /ch

That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood correctly. Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you exactly when to harden up. I might just have to write it myself. Allen On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > ** > > > It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is > being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing > watch that I had that cost about $50**** > > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* **Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com** [mailto:**Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com* > *] *On Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM > *To:* **Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > ** > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market > **** > > ** ** > > **** > > Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners > races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it > did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put > together in Excel and won the race because of it.**** > > ** ** > > It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do > that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a > route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the > line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line > on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and > don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye.*** > * > > ** ** > > That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to > the line? I think that would be the thing I want.**** > > ** ** > > I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the > best winds.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote:**** > > **** > > Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing > Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS > and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line > between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the **Great > Lakes** have it for the long distance races, including me.**** > > **** > > Nick - ****Lake St Clair**, **MI**** - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now > have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. **** > > **** > > check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! **** > ------------------------------ > > *From: *"Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To: *"****Cal**** Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent: *Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM > *Subject: *Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market > > **** > > I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is > because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and > knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and > will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit > there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort > for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve > is large and the market is probably small. **** > > ** ** > > I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and > create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are > going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I > appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing > another sail race application would have to be a labor of love.**** > > ** ** > > By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also > happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated > stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But > that is not enough to make more than beer money.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the > specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 > percent of the job. The rest is simple > > /ch**** > > ** ** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote:**** > > ** ** > > That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the > vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless > setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. **** > > ** ** > > No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a > practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at > where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed > to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This > practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you > start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are > at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at > practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or > late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn > is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your > practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to > start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late > starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a > little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on > speed at line during practice and time left.**** > > ** ** > > It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has > coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to > the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are > either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on > time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal > app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the > errors cancel out.**** > > ** ** > > Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon > as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > > > **** > > -- > /ch > > **** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > >

My starting sequence in a busy race.. if the fleet is small enough manage - intimidate: 1. 5 minute practices; note sailing angles (pick landmarks and courses) to cross, time out and back legs 2. Marshmallow Room; find weak boat(s) get close to them - weave - wobble - wiggle - bring up and down and push them away to make an open slot for your footing. 3. Foot for speed; We foot as hard as possible for max speed, while working our slot. 4. Power (trim) Genoa first; once the slot is good and we can sail across, harden the Genoa and bring up the course from foot to point. 5. Then trim the Main; once you need to lock the course 6. Begin watching the first tackers. If you pick an busy or crowed end, then no program could work, as you spend all efforts tacking and dodging - fiddling with a computer could not happen - unless you have a dedicated boat to boat tactical officer. (we do on important races) I usually decide to go to the lonely side of the line for clear air - longer races - but when tangling up for short courses, use the 6 steps above, listen to my countdown timers call off the time, and my bowman calling off last second avoidance tactics and lengths to the line. Cheers, [cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 1:46 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood correctly. Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you exactly when to harden up. I might just have to write it myself. Allen On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com<mailto:je… [at] gmail.com>> wrote: It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing watch that I had that cost about $50 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put together in Excel and won the race because of it. It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye. That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to the line? I think that would be the thing I want. I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the best winds. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net<mailto:ng… [at] comcast.net>> wrote: Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me. Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. check out www.affirmedracig.com<http://www.affirmedracig.com> very cool ! From: "Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com>> To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve is large and the market is probably small. I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But that is not enough to make more than beer money. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com<mailto:ch… [at] gmail.com>> wrote: sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 percent of the job. The rest is simple /ch On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com>> wrote: That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on speed at line during practice and time left. It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the errors cancel out. Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. Allen -- /ch

Hi Timm, I don't think there is any degree that the line can be off that makes the "favored" end of the line better than being in clear air. As evidence of that, in the Master Mariners the line is parallel to the wind instead of perpendicular. You can't have a more heavily favored end. We were at the favored end in traffic one year and another L-36 was down the line and did much better. I also did some calculations assuming boat speeds for traffic and added distance from being at the non favored end and clear air was the winner. The point of the app would be to tell you when to begin your start sequence knowing where you are as well as how much time remains. Right now you are starting knowing only how much time remains. It has to be better. You are just pointing out that it isn't a simple thing. I agree, this would only work if your tactician wasn't also your grinder. I am not committed to doing this app but if I do it would be on Android. I hate Apple. Allen On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 2:16 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > ** > > > My starting sequence in a busy race.. if the fleet is small enough > manage - intimidate:**** > > ** ** > > **1. ***5 minute practices;* note sailing angles (pick landmarks > and courses) to cross, time out and back legs**** > > **2. ***Marshmallow Room;* find weak boat(s) get close to them – > weave – wobble – wiggle – bring up and down and push them away to make an > open slot for your footing.**** > > **3. ***Foot for speed;* We foot as hard as possible for max speed, > while working our slot.**** > > **4. ***Power (trim) Genoa first;* once the slot is good and we can > sail across, harden the Genoa and bring up the course from foot to point.* > *** > > **5. ***Then trim the Main*; once you need to lock the course **** > > **6. ***Begin watching the first tackers*.**** > > ** ** > > If you pick an busy or crowed end, then no program could work, as you > spend all efforts tacking and dodging – fiddling with a computer could not > happen – unless you have a dedicated boat to boat tactical officer. (we do > on important races)**** > > ** ** > > I usually decide to go to the lonely side of the line for clear air – > longer races – but when tangling up for short courses, use the 6 steps > above, listen to my countdown timers call off the time, and my bowman > calling off last second avoidance tactics and lengths to the line.**** > > ** ** > > Cheers,**** > > * * > > *[image: cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70]* > > *Timm Lessley* > > 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Monday, January 30, 2012 1:46 PM > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market**** > > ** ** > > **** > > That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are > talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot > luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, > assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for > strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood > correctly.**** > > ** ** > > Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by > running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not > perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the > right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were > early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, > it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be > going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you > exactly when to harden up.**** > > ** ** > > I might just have to write it myself.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > **** > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote:**** > > **** > > It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is > being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing > watch that I had that cost about $50**** > > **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com**** > > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market**** > > **** > > **** > > Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners > races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it > did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put > together in Excel and won the race because of it.**** > > **** > > It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do > that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a > route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the > line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line > on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and > don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye.*** > * > > **** > > That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to > the line? I think that would be the thing I want.**** > > **** > > I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the > best winds.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote:**** > > **** > > Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing > Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS > and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line > between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the > Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me.**** > > **** > > Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have > "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. **** > > **** > > check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! **** > ------------------------------ > > *From: *"Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To: *"Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent: *Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM > *Subject: *Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market > > **** > > I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is > because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and > knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and > will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit > there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort > for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve > is large and the market is probably small. **** > > **** > > I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and > create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are > going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I > appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing > another sail race application would have to be a labor of love.**** > > **** > > By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also > happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated > stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But > that is not enough to make more than beer money.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the > specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 > percent of the job. The rest is simple > > /ch**** > > **** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the > vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless > setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. **** > > **** > > No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a > practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at > where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed > to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This > practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you > start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are > at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at > practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or > late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn > is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your > practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to > start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late > starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a > little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on > speed at line during practice and time left.**** > > **** > > It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has > coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to > the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are > either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on > time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal > app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the > errors cancel out.**** > > **** > > Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon > as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > **** > > **** > > > > **** > > -- > /ch**** > > **** > > **** > > ** ** > > **** > > >

I AGREE about open-clean air for the majority of races... The standing exception(s) may be match and one design fleets, particularly on short courses. Perhaps match racers don't really care about the line, except as an obstacle to use against the competition, and similarly the short races are simply about initial position, as there are no real passing lanes. If you can force your way into open air, on the favored end, then you can completely control and gas the fleet. I do not race on the Columbia, generally. The courses here are so short, that with few exceptions, the boat that wins the start wins the race. I am Apple ambivalent - never owned one, yet have a curious admiration from a distance. I guess they have great marketing - I've heard from sources that technology wise they are inferior to Droids - but have a sweeter presentation. One nice feature of our local Cal 20 fleet. NO ELECTRONICS allowed. I'm meeting - being interviewed by Garmin Marine HQ tomorrow - about the future of their instruments and the needs and shortcomings of the casual racer. I did beta testing on their newest line of stuff. I'll bring up some of your thoughts. Cheers, [cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley 503.863.4019 Cell to cell calls From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 4:33 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Hi Timm, I don't think there is any degree that the line can be off that makes the "favored" end of the line better than being in clear air. As evidence of that, in the Master Mariners the line is parallel to the wind instead of perpendicular. You can't have a more heavily favored end. We were at the favored end in traffic one year and another L-36 was down the line and did much better. I also did some calculations assuming boat speeds for traffic and added distance from being at the non favored end and clear air was the winner. The point of the app would be to tell you when to begin your start sequence knowing where you are as well as how much time remains. Right now you are starting knowing only how much time remains. It has to be better. You are just pointing out that it isn't a simple thing. I agree, this would only work if your tactician wasn't also your grinder. I am not committed to doing this app but if I do it would be on Android. I hate Apple. Allen

When I originally bought mine GPS was a military thing only, not to mention that I sailed in the Niagara River (3 miles from the top of the Falls) where we had almost 2 kts of current. In these conditions the watch would have worked better than GPS. However, in all cases a.) the wind and boat speed varies and b) there are other boats. I found that it all came down to skipper and crew being in sync. _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 4:46 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood correctly. Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you exactly when to harden up. I might just have to write it myself. Allen On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing watch that I had that cost about $50 _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put together in Excel and won the race because of it. It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye. That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to the line? I think that would be the thing I want. I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the best winds. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote: Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me. Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! _____ From: "Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve is large and the market is probably small. I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But that is not enough to make more than beer money. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 percent of the job. The rest is simple /ch On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on speed at line during practice and time left. It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the errors cancel out. Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. Allen -- /ch

Wow, I completely disagree. Consider the case with a boat going 6 knots in 2 knots of current. Sail away from the line at 8 knots for 1 minute then return to the line at 4 knots and think you are going to get there in 1 minute? That is the algorithm on the watch being discussed assuming we are talking about the same watch. On the other hand, if your GPS app knows you are going to be traveling 4 knots on your return trip and you head away from the line at 8 knots, at about 40 seconds it is going to tell you to turn around and go back giving you 80 seconds to get there. This assumes 0 time to turn and instant acceleration. The last race we were in had 4 knots of current. We stayed along the shore out of both the wind and the current. We caught all but 2 boats of the faster fleet that started 10 minutes ahead of us. Current is very important in SF Bay. This was in a T-10, not Papoose for full disclosure. Allen On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:10 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > ** > > > When I originally bought mine GPS was a military thing only, not to > mention that I sailed in the Niagara River (3 miles from the top of the > Falls) where we had almost 2 kts of current. In these conditions the watch > would have worked better than GPS. However, in all cases a.) the wind and > boat speed varies and b) there are other boats. I found that it all came > down to skipper and crew being in sync.**** > > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* **Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com** [mailto:**Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com* > *] *On Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Monday, January 30, 2012 4:46 PM > *To:* **Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com** > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market**** > > ** ** > > **** > > That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are > talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot > luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, > assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for > strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood > correctly.**** > > ** ** > > Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by > running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not > perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the > right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were > early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, > it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be > going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you > exactly when to harden up.**** > > ** ** > > I might just have to write it myself.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > **** > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote:**** > > **** > > It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is > being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing > watch that I had that cost about $50**** > > **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com**** > > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market**** > > **** > > **** > > Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners > races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it > did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put > together in Excel and won the race because of it.**** > > **** > > It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do > that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a > route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the > line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line > on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and > don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye.*** > * > > **** > > That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to > the line? I think that would be the thing I want.**** > > **** > > I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the > best winds.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote:**** > > **** > > Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing > Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS > and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line > between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the **Great > Lakes** have it for the long distance races, including me.**** > > **** > > Nick - ****Lake St Clair**, **MI**** - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now > have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. **** > > **** > > check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! **** > ------------------------------ > > *From: *"Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To: *"****Cal**** Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent: *Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM > *Subject: *Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market > > **** > > I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is > because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and > knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and > will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit > there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort > for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve > is large and the market is probably small. **** > > **** > > I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and > create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are > going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I > appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing > another sail race application would have to be a labor of love.**** > > **** > > By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also > happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated > stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But > that is not enough to make more than beer money.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the > specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 > percent of the job. The rest is simple > > /ch**** > > **** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the > vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless > setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. **** > > **** > > No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a > practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at > where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed > to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This > practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you > start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are > at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at > practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or > late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn > is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your > practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to > start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late > starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a > little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on > speed at line during practice and time left.**** > > **** > > It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has > coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to > the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are > either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on > time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal > app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the > errors cancel out.**** > > **** > > Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon > as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > **** > > **** > > > > **** > > -- > /ch**** > > **** > > **** > > ** ** > > >

Getting a good start isn't all that hard. What works for me is a very sophisticated devise that is attached to ones wrist. It is called a TIMEX....with Chrono. Find yourself along the start-line during the 5 or 10 minute warning, sail away with your timer set while on a coarse that will give you an optimum return to the line. What electronics can not do is assess the actions of the other boats and often finding the best position at the start will require some quick un calculated manuvers. Too many electronics take the attention away from sailing fast in the right direction. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Edwards To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood correctly. Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you exactly when to harden up. I might just have to write it myself. Allen On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing watch that I had that cost about $50 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put together in Excel and won the race because of it. It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye. That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to the line? I think that would be the thing I want. I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the best winds. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote: Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me. Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve is large and the market is probably small. I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But that is not enough to make more than beer money. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 percent of the job. The rest is simple /ch On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on speed at line during practice and time left. It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the errors cancel out. Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. Allen -- /ch __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6841 (20120130) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6852 (20120202) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

Yes, the best pre-start "computer" is between your ears. No electronic device could come close to adjusting for all the things you sometimes have to think about at a starting line. Terry On Feb 2, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) wrote: > > Getting a good start isn't all that hard. What works for me is a very sophisticated devise that is attached to ones wrist. It is called a TIMEX....with Chrono. Find yourself along the start-line during the 5 or 10 minute warning, sail away with your timer set while on a coarse that will give you an optimum return to the line. What electronics can not do is assess the actions of the other boats and often finding the best position at the start will require some quick un calculated manuvers. > Too many electronics take the attention away from sailing fast in the right direction. > Mark > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Allen Edwards > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 1:46 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market > > > That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood correctly. > > > Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you exactly when to harden up. > > I might just have to write it myself. > > Allen > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > > It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing watch that I had that cost about $50 > > > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market > > > > > > Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put together in Excel and won the race because of it. > > > > It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye. > > > > That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to the line? I think that would be the thing I want. > > > > I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the best winds. > > > > Allen > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote: > > > > Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me. > > > > Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. > > > > check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! > > From: "Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> > To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market > > > > I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve is large and the market is probably small. > > > > I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. > > > > By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But that is not enough to make more than beer money. > > > > Allen > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > > > sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 percent of the job. The rest is simple > > /ch > > > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > > > That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. > > > > No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on speed at line during practice and time left. > > > > It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the errors cancel out. > > > > Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. > > > > Allen > > > > > > > > > -- > /ch > > > > > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6841 (20120130) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6852 (20120202) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > >

All, A starting watch/timer is invaluable. We use a Ronstan ClearStart model. With buoy racing, the race is often won at the start. Racing in a class of boats with a wide range of handicap ratings, the general rule of thumb is go for "clear air" and away from larger/faster competitors "dirty air". On Magic, we typically use the Vanderbilt Start. Google it. As "weekend warriors" with rotating crew, it has proven to be a consistent winner for us to be at the line at 0:00. Assign a crew member to operate the watch and announce time remaining till start. Be at or near the start line at the 5-minute signal. The timer, tactician, and helmsman need close coordination. Grinders, railmeat, and trimmers should preload leward winches/sheets to be ready at all times. Lazy sheets should not be underfoot in the cockpit. My .02 Worth, --Michael-- From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Getting a good start isn't all that hard. What works for me is a very sophisticated devise that is attached to ones wrist. It is called a TIMEX....with Chrono. Find yourself along the start-line during the 5 or 10 minute warning, sail away with your timer set while on a coarse that will give you an optimum return to the line. What electronics can not do is assess the actions of the other boats and often finding the best position at the start will require some quick un calculated manuvers. Too many electronics take the attention away from sailing fast in the right direction. Mark >From: Allen Edwards >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 1:46 PM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market > > >That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood correctly. > > >Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you exactly when to harden up. > > >I might just have to write it myself. > > >Allen > > > >On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > >> >>It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing watch that I had that cost about $50 >> >> >>________________________________ >> >>From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards >>Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market >> >> >>Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put together in Excel and won the race because of it. >> >>It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye. >> >>That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to the line? I think that would be the thing I want. >> >>I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the best winds. >> >>Allen >>On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote: >> >>Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me. >> >>Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. >> >>check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! >> >>________________________________ >> >>From: "Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> >>To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market >> >> >>I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve is large and the market is probably small. >> >>I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. >> >>By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But that is not enough to make more than beer money. >> >>Allen >>On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >> >>sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 percent of the job. The rest is simple >> >>/ch >> >>On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >> >>That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. >> >>No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on speed at line during practice and time left. >> >>It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the errors cancel out. >> >>Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. >> >>Allen >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >>/ch >> >> >> >> > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6841 (20120130) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6852 (20120202) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

My Adminral is getting tired of the leaks: therefore I am. Magic has a teak rub rail with SS cap. A PO attached the teak to the hull with 5200, so removal will be destructive. What will I find under the teak? I assume the Cal 2-27 joint is an "outward flange" as shown in the attached files. Can anyone confirm this? I seem to remember at least one other Cal owner going through this on some old email threads... I know it'll take a boat buck or more, but I want a long term fix/repair; not a temporary "patch". A Happy Wife is a Happy Life... Thanks! Michael From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 9:06 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer All, A starting watch/timer is invaluable. We use a Ronstan ClearStart model. With buoy racing, the race is often won at the start. Racing in a class of boats with a wide range of handicap ratings, the general rule of thumb is go for "clear air" and away from larger/faster competitors "dirty air". On Magic, we typically use the Vanderbilt Start. Google it. As "weekend warriors" with rotating crew, it has proven to be a consistent winner for us to be at the line at 0:00. Assign a crew member to operate the watch and announce time remaining till start. Be at or near the start line at the 5-minute signal. The timer, tactician, and helmsman need close coordination. Grinders, railmeat, and trimmers should preload leward winches/sheets to be ready at all times. Lazy sheets should not be underfoot in the cockpit. My .02 Worth, --Michael-- From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Getting a good start isn't all that hard. What works for me is a very sophisticated devise that is attached to ones wrist. It is called a TIMEX....with Chrono. Find yourself along the start-line during the 5 or 10 minute warning, sail away with your timer set while on a coarse that will give you an optimum return to the line. What electronics can not do is assess the actions of the other boats and often finding the best position at the start will require some quick un calculated manuvers. Too many electronics take the attention away from sailing fast in the right direction. Mark >From: Allen Edwards >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 1:46 PM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market > > >That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood correctly. > > >Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you exactly when to harden up. > > >I might just have to write it myself. > > >Allen > > > >On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > >> >>It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing watch that I had that cost about $50 >> >> >>________________________________ >> >>From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards >>Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market >> >> >>Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put together in Excel and won the race because of it. >> >>It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye. >> >>That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to the line? I think that would be the thing I want. >> >>I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the best winds. >> >>Allen >>On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote: >> >>Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me. >> >>Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. >> >>check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! >> >>________________________________ >> >>From: "Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> >>To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market >> >> >>I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve is large and the market is probably small. >> >>I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. >> >>By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But that is not enough to make more than beer money. >> >>Allen >>On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >> >>sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 percent of the job. The rest is simple >> >>/ch >> >>On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >> >>That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. >> >>No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on speed at line during practice and time left. >> >>It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the errors cancel out. >> >>Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. >> >>Allen >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >>/ch >> >> >> >> > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6841 (20120130) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6852 (20120202) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

Michael, I also use a clear start watch. I also try for clear air. I have done calculations to try and figure out what the relative advantages of "clear air", "favored end"., and "more wind" are and "favored end", which is what most people read about and where most of the boats are, is at the bottom of the list unless the committee isn't at all good at setting the line. I usually start away from the other boats as a result, typically at the pin end with the rest of the fleet at the committee boat. I am usually the first or second boat at the first mark and considering that most of the fleet owes me time, as much as 68 seconds a mile, that isn't bad. The Vanderbilt start is based on the principal that a boat will go the same speed on a run at 135 degrees to the wind as it will on a beat at 45 degrees to the wind. Therefore, if you know how long it takes you to turn you and subtract that from the time you begin your start sequence (at the line and heading away from it) then allow half the remaining time for your return trip, you will be at the line when the gun goes off. However, this doesn't work if you sail in current, or if you can't get to the right place to start the sequence, or if you want to approach the line on a reach, or... The app I am proposing is just a way to do a timed approach without having to time the thing with the run. If you know where you are, and you know how long it will take you to get back to the line from that distance, you can time it to be there on time. If you want to allow for some extra time because of traffic, start your turn early, there can be a countdown on the app. Personally I would like an app like this. I see from the replies that most people do not and that certainly removes motivation for me to write it. Maybe I don't need it. I typically win the start without it, typically win the race, and have won our summer series for the last couple of years. I won the Master Mariners by 10 minutes last year so maybe I shouldn't even worry about the start. On the MM, I went for clear air, and was a football field away from all the other boats at the start. That particular starting line is not set perpendicular to the wind so a Vanderbilt start would be impossible. We did our timed run by timing by eye where we should be and timing how long it would take us to get to the line from there. We did it the day before. How nice it would have been to be able to calibrate that same day in the actual wind we were racing in. You would not even need to calibrate at the starting line, just in the same wind at the same approach angle. But whatever works for you. Best of luck on the race course. Allen On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:06 AM, Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > All, > > A starting watch/timer is invaluable. We use a Ronstan ClearStart model. > With buoy racing, the race is often won at the start. Racing in a class of > boats with a wide range of handicap ratings, the general rule of thumb is > go for "clear air" and away from larger/faster competitors "dirty air". > > On Magic, we typically use the Vanderbilt Start. Google it. As "weekend > warriors" with rotating crew, it has proven to be a consistent winner for > us to be at the line at 0:00. > > Assign a crew member to operate the watch and announce time remaining till > start. Be at or near the start line at the 5-minute signal. The timer, > tactician, and helmsman need close coordination. Grinders, railmeat, and > trimmers should preload leward winches/sheets to be ready at all times. > Lazy sheets should not be underfoot in the cockpit. > > My .02 Worth, > --Michael-- > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, February 2, 2012 7:15 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market > > > Getting a good start isn't all that hard. What works for me is a very > sophisticated devise that is attached to ones wrist. It is called a > TIMEX....with Chrono. Find yourself along the start-line during the 5 or 10 > minute warning, sail away with your timer set while on a coarse that will > give you an optimum return to the line. What electronics can not do is > assess the actions of the other boats and often finding the best position > at the start will require some quick un calculated manuvers. > Too many electronics take the attention away from sailing fast in the > right direction. > Mark > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Monday, January 30, 2012 1:46 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market > > > That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are > talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot > luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, > assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for > strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood > correctly. > > Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by > running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not > perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the > right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were > early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, > it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be > going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you > exactly when to harden up. > > I might just have to write it myself. > > Allen > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > ** > > It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is > being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing > watch that I had that cost about $50**** > **** > ------------------------------ > *From:* **Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com** [mailto:**Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > **] *On Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM > *To:* **Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > ** > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market > **** > **** > **** > Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master > Mariners races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. > However, it did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a > model I put together in Excel and won the race because of it.**** > **** > It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can > do that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) > to a route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance > to the line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to > the line on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using > GPS and don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by > eye.**** > **** > That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to > the line? I think that would be the thing I want.**** > **** > I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find > the best winds.**** > **** > Allen**** > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote:**** > **** > Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing > Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS > and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line > between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the **Great > Lakes** have it for the long distance races, including me.**** > **** > Nick - ****Lake St Clair**, **MI**** - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now > have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. **** > **** > check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! **** > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To: *"****Cal**** Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent: *Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM > *Subject: *Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market > > **** > I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it > is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and > knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and > will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit > there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort > for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve > is large and the market is probably small. **** > **** > I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and > create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are > going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I > appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing > another sail race application would have to be a labor of love.**** > **** > By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also > happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated > stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But > that is not enough to make more than beer money.**** > **** > Allen**** > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> > wrote:**** > **** > sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the > specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 > percent of the job. The rest is simple > > /ch**** > **** > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote:**** > **** > > That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the > vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless > setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. **** > > **** > No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a > practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at > where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed > to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This > practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you > start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are > at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at > practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or > late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn > is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your > practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to > start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late > starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a > little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on > speed at line during practice and time left.**** > **** > It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has > coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to > the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are > either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on > time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal > app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the > errors cancel out.**** > **** > Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as > soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented.**** > **** > Allen**** > **** > **** > > > **** > -- > /ch > > **** > **** > **** > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 6841 (20120130) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 6852 (20120202) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > >

Michael, I think your answer is “none of the above”. I’ve been waiting years to spring this briefing on somebody. The picture of the sawed off cross section on your boat would indicate that the attached deck/hull and rub rail design applies. Seals Spars has the “gunnel rubber” (as do others). I can convert the “briefing to JPGs if needed. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [2 Attachments] [Attachment(s) from Michael D included below] My Adminral is getting tired of the leaks: therefore I am. Magic has a teak rub rail with SS cap. A PO attached the teak to the hull with 5200, so removal will be destructive. What will I find under the teak? I assume the Cal 2-27 joint is an "outward flange" as shown in the attached files. Can anyone confirm this? I seem to remember at least one other Cal owner going through this on some old email threads... I know it'll take a boat buck or more, but I want a long term fix/repair; not a temporary "patch". A Happy Wife is a Happy Life... Thanks! Michael From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 9:06 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer All, A starting watch/timer is invaluable. We use a Ronstan ClearStart model. With buoy racing, the race is often won at the start. Racing in a class of boats with a wide range of handicap ratings, the general rule of thumb is go for "clear air" and away from larger/faster competitors "dirty air". On Magic, we typically use the Vanderbilt Start. Google it. As "weekend warriors" with rotating crew, it has proven to be a consistent winner for us to be at the line at 0:00. Assign a crew member to operate the watch and announce time remaining till start. Be at or near the start line at the 5-minute signal. The timer, tactician, and helmsman need close coordination. Grinders, railmeat, and trimmers should preload leward winches/sheets to be ready at all times. Lazy sheets should not be underfoot in the cockpit. My .02 Worth, --Michael-- From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Getting a good start isn't all that hard. What works for me is a very sophisticated devise that is attached to ones wrist. It is called a TIMEX....with Chrono. Find yourself along the start-line during the 5 or 10 minute warning, sail away with your timer set while on a coarse that will give you an optimum return to the line. What electronics can not do is assess the actions of the other boats and often finding the best position at the start will require some quick un calculated manuvers. Too many electronics take the attention away from sailing fast in the right direction. Mark From: Allen Edwards<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood correctly. Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you exactly when to harden up. I might just have to write it myself. Allen On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com<mailto:je… [at] gmail.com>> wrote: It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing watch that I had that cost about $50 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put together in Excel and won the race because of it. It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye. That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to the line? I think that would be the thing I want. I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the best winds. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net<mailto:ng… [at] comcast.net>> wrote: Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me. Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. check out www.affirmedracig.com<http://www.affirmedracig.com> very cool ! From: "Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com>> To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve is large and the market is probably small. I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But that is not enough to make more than beer money. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com<mailto:ch… [at] gmail.com>> wrote: sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 percent of the job. The rest is simple /ch On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com>> wrote: That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on speed at line during practice and time left. It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the errors cancel out. Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. Allen -- /ch __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6841 (20120130) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6852 (20120202) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Attachment(s) from Michael D 2 of 2 Photo(s) [Description: Image removed by sender. hull-deck-joints.jpg]<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats/attachments/folder/761050451/item/930256473/view> hull-deck-joints.jpg<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats/attachments/folder/761050451/item/930256473/view> [Description: Image removed by sender. IMG00180-20110208-0845.jpg]<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats/attachments/folder/761050451/item/20897266/view> IMG00180-20110208-0845.jpg<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cal_Boats/attachments/folder/761050451/item/20897266/view>

Charlie! Thanks for the PPT. It explains a lot. The photo of the sawed off cross section was from an Ericsson (I think), and I attached it only as an illustrative example. I kind of like the teak rub rail, so I'll probably have a new one fabricated. We have a lot of marine lumber yards/mills in our area. At the end of the day, I figure it'll date a few boat weeks to get it repaired. I'll try to photo document the project and will make them available to anyone interested. --Michael-- From: "Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE)" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 3:17 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [1 Attachment] [Attachment(s) from Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) included below] Michael, I think your answer is “none of the above”. I’ve been waiting years to spring this briefing on somebody. The picture of the sawed off cross section on your boat would indicate that the attached deck/hull and rub rail design applies. Seals Spars has the “gunnel rubber” (as do others). I can convert the “briefing to JPGs if needed. Cheers Charlie From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [2 Attachments] [Attachment(s) from Michael D included below] My Adminral is getting tired of the leaks: therefore I am. Magic has a teak rub rail with SS cap. A PO attached the teak to the hull with 5200, so removal will be destructive. What will I find under the teak? I assume the Cal 2-27 joint is an "outward flange" as shown in the attached files. Can anyone confirm this? I seem to remember at least one other Cal owner going through this on some old email threads... I know it'll take a boat buck or more, but I want a long term fix/repair; not a temporary "patch". A Happy Wife is a Happy Life... Thanks! Michael From:Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 9:06 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer All, A starting watch/timer is invaluable. We use a Ronstan ClearStart model. With buoy racing, the race is often won at the start. Racing in a class of boats with a wide range of handicap ratings, the general rule of thumb is go for "clear air" and away from larger/faster competitors "dirty air". On Magic, we typically use the Vanderbilt Start. Google it. As "weekend warriors" with rotating crew, it has proven to be a consistent winner for us to be at the line at 0:00. Assign a crew member to operate the watch and announce time remaining till start. Be at or near the start line at the 5-minute signal. The timer, tactician, and helmsman need close coordination. Grinders, railmeat, and trimmers should preload leward winches/sheets to be ready at all times. Lazy sheets should not be underfoot in the cockpit. My .02 Worth, --Michael-- From:Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Getting a good start isn't all that hard. What works for me is a very sophisticated devise that is attached to ones wrist. It is called a TIMEX....with Chrono. Find yourself along the start-line during the 5 or 10 minute warning, sail away with your timer set while on a coarse that will give you an optimum return to the line. What electronics can not do is assess the actions of the other boats and often finding the best position at the start will require some quick un calculated manuvers. Too many electronics take the attention away from sailing fast in the right direction. Mark >From:Allen Edwards >To:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent:Monday, January 30, 2012 1:46 PM >Subject:Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market > > >That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood correctly. > >Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you exactly when to harden up. > >I might just have to write it myself. > >Allen > >On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > >It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing watch that I had that cost about $50 > > >________________________________ > >From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards >Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market > > >Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put together in Excel and won the race because of it. > >It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye. > >That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to the line? I think that would be the thing I want. > >I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the best winds. > >Allen >On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote: > >Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me. > >Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. > >check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! > >________________________________ > >From: "Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market > > >I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve is large and the market is probably small. > >I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. > >By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But that is not enough to make more than beer money. > >Allen >On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > >sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 percent of the job. The rest is simple > >/ch > >On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > >That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. > >No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on speed at line during practice and time left. > >It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the errors cancel out. > >Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. > >Allen > > > > > >-- >/ch > > > > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6841 (20120130) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6852 (20120202) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com Attachment(s) from Michael D 2 of 2 Photo(s) hull-deck-joints.jpg IMG00180-20110208-0845.jpg

Michael, On my 227 the rub rail is hard plastic that slides over the two flanges that are on the hull and deck sections. The plastic piece is attached with screws that go through the vertical section of the rail and in between the two flanges. A soft vinyl piece goes into groves in the rub rail to cover the screws and aluminum caps cover both ends of the rail. And it leaks! The rub rail design is dumb, the resistance to breakage of the hard plastic is near zero when it is new and much worse ten years later. The hull and deck flanges were pop riveted together and glassed on the interior since this interior section is or was covered by cabinetry or carpet full inspection has not been possible but I'd bet that some of the glass has failed or that one or more of the original screws went through it. Other versions of the CAL 227 had the rubberry rub rail, which I had on a CAL 25. This rail slipped over the two flanges without any flanges It is a better seal but becomes very chalky and after a few years many people put screws in from the bottom in order to keep it attached. A friend installed one on a CAL 28 by first heating it to make it very pliable and then stretching it so that when it cooled it would become very tight. This rubrail was continuous from a stern cap on starboard to one on port. Good luck on your project, the approach that was taken on Mariposa http://www.mariposasailing.com/hulldeck.html is probably the only one that would stop the leak. John B CAL 227 #650 Gotcha Again _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [2 Attachments] [Attachment(s) from Michael D included below] My Adminral is getting tired of the leaks: therefore I am. Magic has a teak rub rail with SS cap. A PO attached the teak to the hull with 5200, so removal will be destructive. What will I find under the teak? I assume the Cal 2-27 joint is an "outward flange" as shown in the attached files. Can anyone confirm this? I seem to remember at least one other Cal owner going through this on some old email threads... I know it'll take a boat buck or more, but I want a long term fix/repair; not a temporary "patch". A Happy Wife is a Happy Life... Thanks! Michael _____

Allen, I think I understand your problem from the explanation below. A variation of the vanderbuilt start is what I learned when I started sailing/racing. Sail away from the line on a tack that will match boat speed on a reciprocal course back to the starting point. 1 min. out, one minute back. I do not have a expensive chart plotter or even one of the newer more accurate GPS. I can set a waypoint at a spot on the earth (starting line) and set the GPS to show me an ETA to that point. Of course it is only as accurate as my 10 year old GPS will calculate. And you are looking to have the GPS or Computer program to calculate the ETA to a line on the earth rather than a specific point. (maybe a series of points would work) I am not a computer engineer nor GPS programmer. I would like to see if this application is available, I think it is workable, but the science of this application is well beyond my experience. Good luck, John From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 11:01 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer Michael, I also use a clear start watch. I also try for clear air. I have done calculations to try and figure out what the relative advantages of "clear air", "favored end"., and "more wind" are and "favored end", which is what most people read about and where most of the boats are, is at the bottom of the list unless the committee isn't at all good at setting the line. I usually start away from the other boats as a result, typically at the pin end with the rest of the fleet at the committee boat. I am usually the first or second boat at the first mark and considering that most of the fleet owes me time, as much as 68 seconds a mile, that isn't bad. The Vanderbilt start is based on the principal that a boat will go the same speed on a run at 135 degrees to the wind as it will on a beat at 45 degrees to the wind. Therefore, if you know how long it takes you to turn you and subtract that from the time you begin your start sequence (at the line and heading away from it) then allow half the remaining time for your return trip, you will be at the line when the gun goes off. However, this doesn't work if you sail in current, or if you can't get to the right place to start the sequence, or if you want to approach the line on a reach, or... The app I am proposing is just a way to do a timed approach without having to time the thing with the run. If you know where you are, and you know how long it will take you to get back to the line from that distance, you can time it to be there on time. If you want to allow for some extra time because of traffic, start your turn early, there can be a countdown on the app. Personally I would like an app like this. I see from the replies that most people do not and that certainly removes motivation for me to write it. Maybe I don't need it. I typically win the start without it, typically win the race, and have won our summer series for the last couple of years. I won the Master Mariners by 10 minutes last year so maybe I shouldn't even worry about the start. On the MM, I went for clear air, and was a football field away from all the other boats at the start. That particular starting line is not set perpendicular to the wind so a Vanderbilt start would be impossible. We did our timed run by timing by eye where we should be and timing how long it would take us to get to the line from there. We did it the day before. How nice it would have been to be able to calibrate that same day in the actual wind we were racing in. You would not even need to calibrate at the starting line, just in the same wind at the same approach angle. But whatever works for you. Best of luck on the race course. Allen On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:06 AM, Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: All, A starting watch/timer is invaluable. We use a Ronstan ClearStart model. With buoy racing, the race is often won at the start. Racing in a class of boats with a wide range of handicap ratings, the general rule of thumb is go for "clear air" and away from larger/faster competitors "dirty air". On Magic, we typically use the Vanderbilt Start. Google it. As "weekend warriors" with rotating crew, it has proven to be a consistent winner for us to be at the line at 0:00. Assign a crew member to operate the watch and announce time remaining till start. Be at or near the start line at the 5-minute signal. The timer, tactician, and helmsman need close coordination. Grinders, railmeat, and trimmers should preload leward winches/sheets to be ready at all times. Lazy sheets should not be underfoot in the cockpit. My .02 Worth, --Michael-- _____ From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Getting a good start isn't all that hard. What works for me is a very sophisticated devise that is attached to ones wrist. It is called a TIMEX....with Chrono. Find yourself along the start-line during the 5 or 10 minute warning, sail away with your timer set while on a coarse that will give you an optimum return to the line. What electronics can not do is assess the actions of the other boats and often finding the best position at the start will require some quick un calculated manuvers. Too many electronics take the attention away from sailing fast in the right direction. Mark From: Allen Edwards <mailto:al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood correctly. Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you exactly when to harden up. I might just have to write it myself. Allen On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing watch that I had that cost about $50 _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put together in Excel and won the race because of it. It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye. That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to the line? I think that would be the thing I want. I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the best winds. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote: Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me. Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! _____ From: "Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve is large and the market is probably small. I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But that is not enough to make more than beer money. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 percent of the job. The rest is simple /ch On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on speed at line during practice and time left. It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the errors cancel out. Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. Allen -- /ch __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6841 (20120130) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6852 (20120202) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

Since I just happened to be cutting up a CAL 25, here is a shot of that deck hull joint and the area that can trap water. I did not know that any of the 27s had a hard plastic rail (probably not original?). There are now a few vinyl rails that do not chalk (as much). John, I always use t he screws from the underside. Maybe it actually helps drain that area? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Boyce Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:43 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks Michael, On my 227 the rub rail is hard plastic that slides over the two flanges that are on the hull and deck sections. The plastic piece is attached with screws that go through the vertical section of the rail and in between the two flanges. A soft vinyl piece goes into groves in the rub rail to cover the screws and aluminum caps cover both ends of the rail. And it leaks! The rub rail design is dumb, the resistance to breakage of the hard plastic is near zero when it is new and much worse ten years later. The hull and deck flanges were pop riveted together and glassed on the interior since this interior section is or was covered by cabinetry or carpet full inspection has not been possible but I'd bet that some of the glass has failed or that one or more of the original screws went through it. Other versions of the CAL 227 had the rubberry rub rail, which I had on a CAL 25. This rail slipped over the two flanges without any flanges It is a better seal but becomes very chalky and after a few years many people put screws in from the bottom in order to keep it attached. A friend installed one on a CAL 28 by first heating it to make it very pliable and then stretching it so that when it cooled it would become very tight. This rubrail was continuous from a stern cap on starboard to one on port. Good luck on your project, the approach that was taken on Mariposa http://www.mariposasailing.com/hulldeck.html is probably the only one that would stop the leak. John B CAL 227 #650 Gotcha Again From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [2 Attachments] My Adminral is getting tired of the leaks: therefore I am. Magic has a teak rub rail with SS cap. A PO attached the teak to the hull with 5200, so removal will be destructive. What will I find under the teak? I assume the Cal 2-27 joint is an "outward flange" as shown in the attached files. Can anyone confirm this? I seem to remember at least one other Cal owner going through this on some old email threads... I know it'll take a boat buck or more, but I want a long term fix/repair; not a temporary "patch". A Happy Wife is a Happy Life... Thanks! Michael

There are apps that will tell you your ETA to the point on a line you are headed to. This will work during the return portion of the Vanderbilt start. But as you know, by then you are already too early or too late. I personally don't see the benefit of these programs because they are only good for adjusting if you are early. If you are late, you are late. They have other problems as well but even if they were perfect, if you are early your remedy is to slow down, then you end up being on time but slow. I write programs as you know if you visit L-36.com. I am also a retired measurement guy. I made a career out of figuring out how to remove errors from measurements. I also race sailboats. This combination makes this a very interesting problem. So, just to be clear, what I am thinking of is something that will tell you when to start your approach to the line just as your 1 minute timed run tells you on a Vanderbilt start. Only it works in current and you would not have to do the first minute of your example 2 minutes start sequence. You could just hang around and know when to head to the line. I just need to get motivated to take on a new big unknown project. Allen On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 7:50 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: > ** > > > Allen,**** > > ** ** > > I think I understand your problem from the explanation below. A variation > of the vanderbuilt start is what I learned when I started sailing/racing. > Sail away from the line on a tack that will match boat speed on a > reciprocal course back to the starting point. 1 min. out, one minute back. > **** > > ** ** > > I do not have a expensive chart plotter or even one of the newer more > accurate GPS. I can set a waypoint at a spot on the earth (starting line) > and set the GPS to show me an ETA to that point. Of course it is only as > accurate as my 10 year old GPS will calculate. **** > > ** ** > > And you are looking to have the GPS or Computer program to calculate the > ETA to a line on the earth rather than a specific point. (maybe a series of > points would work) I am not a computer engineer nor GPS programmer. I > would like to see if this application is available, I think it is > workable, but the science of this application is well beyond my experience. > **** > > ** ** > > Good luck,**** > > ** ** > > John**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Friday, February 03, 2012 11:01 AM > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer**** > > ** ** > > **** > > Michael, I also use a clear start watch. I also try for clear air. I > have done calculations to try and figure out what the relative advantages > of "clear air", "favored end"., and "more wind" are and "favored end", > which is what most people read about and where most of the boats are, is at > the bottom of the list unless the committee isn't at all good at setting > the line. I usually start away from the other boats as a result, typically > at the pin end with the rest of the fleet at the committee boat. I am > usually the first or second boat at the first mark and considering that > most of the fleet owes me time, as much as 68 seconds a mile, that isn't > bad.**** > > ** ** > > The Vanderbilt start is based on the principal that a boat will go the > same speed on a run at 135 degrees to the wind as it will on a beat at 45 > degrees to the wind. Therefore, if you know how long it takes you to turn > you and subtract that from the time you begin your start sequence (at the > line and heading away from it) then allow half the remaining time for your > return trip, you will be at the line when the gun goes off.**** > > ** ** > > However, this doesn't work if you sail in current, or if you can't get to > the right place to start the sequence, or if you want to approach the line > on a reach, or...**** > > ** ** > > The app I am proposing is just a way to do a timed approach without having > to time the thing with the run. If you know where you are, and you know > how long it will take you to get back to the line from that distance, you > can time it to be there on time. If you want to allow for some extra time > because of traffic, start your turn early, there can be a countdown on the > app.**** > > ** ** > > Personally I would like an app like this. I see from the replies that > most people do not and that certainly removes motivation for me to write > it. Maybe I don't need it. I typically win the start without it, > typically win the race, and have won our summer series for the last couple > of years. I won the Master Mariners by 10 minutes last year so maybe I > shouldn't even worry about the start. On the MM, I went for clear air, and > was a football field away from all the other boats at the start. That > particular starting line is not set perpendicular to the wind so a > Vanderbilt start would be impossible. We did our timed run by timing by > eye where we should be and timing how long it would take us to get to the > line from there. We did it the day before. How nice it would have been to > be able to calibrate that same day in the actual wind we were racing in. > You would not even need to calibrate at the starting line, just in the > same wind at the same approach angle.**** > > ** ** > > But whatever works for you. Best of luck on the race course.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > ** ** > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:06 AM, Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> wrote:**** > > **** > > All,**** > > ** ** > > A starting watch/timer is invaluable. We use a Ronstan ClearStart model. > With buoy racing, the race is often won at the start. Racing in a class of > boats with a wide range of handicap ratings, the general rule of thumb is > go for "clear air" and away from larger/faster competitors "dirty air". * > *** > > ** ** > > On Magic, we typically use the Vanderbilt Start. Google it. As "weekend > warriors" with rotating crew, it has proven to be a consistent winner for > us to be at the line at 0:00.**** > > ** ** > > Assign a crew member to operate the watch and announce time remaining till > start. Be at or near the start line at the 5-minute signal. The timer, > tactician, and helmsman need close coordination. Grinders, railmeat, and > trimmers should preload leward winches/sheets to be ready at all times. > Lazy sheets should not be underfoot in the cockpit.**** > > ** ** > > My .02 Worth,**** > > --Michael--**** > > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, February 2, 2012 7:15 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market**** > > ** ** > > **** > > Getting a good start isn't all that hard. What works for me is a very > sophisticated devise that is attached to ones wrist. It is called a > TIMEX....with Chrono. Find yourself along the start-line during the 5 or 10 > minute warning, sail away with your timer set while on a coarse that will > give you an optimum return to the line. What electronics can not do is > assess the actions of the other boats and often finding the best position > at the start will require some quick un calculated manuvers.**** > > Too many electronics take the attention away from sailing fast in the > right direction. **** > > Mark**** > > **** > > ----- Original Message ----- **** > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> **** > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com **** > > *Sent:* Monday, January 30, 2012 1:46 PM**** > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market**** > > ** ** > > **** > > That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are > talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot > luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, > assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for > strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood > correctly. **** > > ** ** > > Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by > running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not > perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the > right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were > early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, > it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be > going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you > exactly when to harden up.**** > > ** ** > > I might just have to write it myself.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > ** ** > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote:**** > > **** > > It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is > being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing > watch that I had that cost about $50**** > > **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com**** > > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market**** > > **** > > **** > > Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners > races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it > did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put > together in Excel and won the race because of it.**** > > **** > > It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do > that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a > route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the > line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line > on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and > don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye.*** > * > > **** > > That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to > the line? I think that would be the thing I want.**** > > **** > > I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the > best winds.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote:**** > > **** > > Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing > Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS > and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line > between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the > Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me.**** > > **** > > Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have > "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. **** > > **** > > check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! **** > ------------------------------ > > *From: *"Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To: *"Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent: *Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM > *Subject: *Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market > > **** > > I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is > because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and > knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and > will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit > there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort > for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve > is large and the market is probably small. **** > > **** > > I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and > create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are > going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I > appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing > another sail race application would have to be a labor of love.**** > > **** > > By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also > happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated > stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But > that is not enough to make more than beer money.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the > specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 > percent of the job. The rest is simple > > /ch**** > > **** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. > Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all > the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. **** > > **** > > No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a > practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at > where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed > to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This > practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you > start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are > at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at > practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or > late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn > is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your > practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to > start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late > starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a > little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on > speed at line during practice and time left.**** > > **** > > It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has > coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to > the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are > either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on > time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal > app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the > errors cancel out.**** > > **** > > Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon > as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > **** > > **** > > > > **** > > -- > /ch**** > > **** > > **** > > ** ** > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 6841 (20120130) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com**** > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 6852 (20120202) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > **** > > >

I would think the app would need input from several external devises. Wind speed and direction (anemometer), through hull speedo to provide your through the water speeds, digital compass and GPS to provide adjusted COG, SOG (which could also provide drift or current) Then your program would require a complete set of polars for your boat, sail plan etc. I think Demo has a program for developing polars for your boat, based on empirical data collected during sailing. Would you also need some way to measure the actual load on your sails. i.e. if you are headed to the line, on a close reach, trying to slow the boat by luffing the sails, what input to the program would change your ETA? It sounds like a very ambitious and complicated program. Based my view of your website, you definitely have knowledge and resources to make this happen. It would be nice to have all this in a "black box" gadget for less than a boat buck. J Good luck john From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:55 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer There are apps that will tell you your ETA to the point on a line you are headed to. This will work during the return portion of the Vanderbilt start. But as you know, by then you are already too early or too late. I personally don't see the benefit of these programs because they are only good for adjusting if you are early. If you are late, you are late. They have other problems as well but even if they were perfect, if you are early your remedy is to slow down, then you end up being on time but slow. I write programs as you know if you visit L-36.com. I am also a retired measurement guy. I made a career out of figuring out how to remove errors from measurements. I also race sailboats. This combination makes this a very interesting problem. So, just to be clear, what I am thinking of is something that will tell you when to start your approach to the line just as your 1 minute timed run tells you on a Vanderbilt start. Only it works in current and you would not have to do the first minute of your example 2 minutes start sequence. You could just hang around and know when to head to the line. I just need to get motivated to take on a new big unknown project. Allen On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 7:50 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: Allen, I think I understand your problem from the explanation below. A variation of the vanderbuilt start is what I learned when I started sailing/racing. Sail away from the line on a tack that will match boat speed on a reciprocal course back to the starting point. 1 min. out, one minute back. I do not have a expensive chart plotter or even one of the newer more accurate GPS. I can set a waypoint at a spot on the earth (starting line) and set the GPS to show me an ETA to that point. Of course it is only as accurate as my 10 year old GPS will calculate. And you are looking to have the GPS or Computer program to calculate the ETA to a line on the earth rather than a specific point. (maybe a series of points would work) I am not a computer engineer nor GPS programmer. I would like to see if this application is available, I think it is workable, but the science of this application is well beyond my experience. Good luck, John From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 11:01 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer Michael, I also use a clear start watch. I also try for clear air. I have done calculations to try and figure out what the relative advantages of "clear air", "favored end"., and "more wind" are and "favored end", which is what most people read about and where most of the boats are, is at the bottom of the list unless the committee isn't at all good at setting the line. I usually start away from the other boats as a result, typically at the pin end with the rest of the fleet at the committee boat. I am usually the first or second boat at the first mark and considering that most of the fleet owes me time, as much as 68 seconds a mile, that isn't bad. The Vanderbilt start is based on the principal that a boat will go the same speed on a run at 135 degrees to the wind as it will on a beat at 45 degrees to the wind. Therefore, if you know how long it takes you to turn you and subtract that from the time you begin your start sequence (at the line and heading away from it) then allow half the remaining time for your return trip, you will be at the line when the gun goes off. However, this doesn't work if you sail in current, or if you can't get to the right place to start the sequence, or if you want to approach the line on a reach, or... The app I am proposing is just a way to do a timed approach without having to time the thing with the run. If you know where you are, and you know how long it will take you to get back to the line from that distance, you can time it to be there on time. If you want to allow for some extra time because of traffic, start your turn early, there can be a countdown on the app. Personally I would like an app like this. I see from the replies that most people do not and that certainly removes motivation for me to write it. Maybe I don't need it. I typically win the start without it, typically win the race, and have won our summer series for the last couple of years. I won the Master Mariners by 10 minutes last year so maybe I shouldn't even worry about the start. On the MM, I went for clear air, and was a football field away from all the other boats at the start. That particular starting line is not set perpendicular to the wind so a Vanderbilt start would be impossible. We did our timed run by timing by eye where we should be and timing how long it would take us to get to the line from there. We did it the day before. How nice it would have been to be able to calibrate that same day in the actual wind we were racing in. You would not even need to calibrate at the starting line, just in the same wind at the same approach angle. But whatever works for you. Best of luck on the race course. Allen On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:06 AM, Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: All, A starting watch/timer is invaluable. We use a Ronstan ClearStart model. With buoy racing, the race is often won at the start. Racing in a class of boats with a wide range of handicap ratings, the general rule of thumb is go for "clear air" and away from larger/faster competitors "dirty air". On Magic, we typically use the Vanderbilt Start. Google it. As "weekend warriors" with rotating crew, it has proven to be a consistent winner for us to be at the line at 0:00. Assign a crew member to operate the watch and announce time remaining till start. Be at or near the start line at the 5-minute signal. The timer, tactician, and helmsman need close coordination. Grinders, railmeat, and trimmers should preload leward winches/sheets to be ready at all times. Lazy sheets should not be underfoot in the cockpit. My .02 Worth, --Michael-- _____ From: Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Getting a good start isn't all that hard. What works for me is a very sophisticated devise that is attached to ones wrist. It is called a TIMEX....with Chrono. Find yourself along the start-line during the 5 or 10 minute warning, sail away with your timer set while on a coarse that will give you an optimum return to the line. What electronics can not do is assess the actions of the other boats and often finding the best position at the start will require some quick un calculated manuvers. Too many electronics take the attention away from sailing fast in the right direction. Mark From: Allen Edwards <mailto:al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood correctly. Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you exactly when to harden up. I might just have to write it myself. Allen On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing watch that I had that cost about $50 _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put together in Excel and won the race because of it. It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye. That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to the line? I think that would be the thing I want. I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the best winds. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote: Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me. Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! _____ From: "Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android Market I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve is large and the market is probably small. I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing another sail race application would have to be a labor of love. By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But that is not enough to make more than beer money. Allen On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> wrote: sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 percent of the job. The rest is simple /ch On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on speed at line during practice and time left. It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the errors cancel out. Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented. Allen -- /ch __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6841 (20120130) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6852 (20120202) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

The plastic rub rail was original. I've had the boat since 1987. The cap was always screwed on horizontally. My 227 also had the same mast section as the 25-2. Other differences included an engine shaft that came out closer to the rudder than others making it very difficult to install a folding prop. The transom is down ~3 inches and the bow is up the same amount. There were only six boats made after this one so I think they were using whatever parts they had on hand. John B _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:50 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [1 Attachment] [Attachment(s) from Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) included below] Since I just happened to be cutting up a CAL 25, here is a shot of that deck hull joint and the area that can trap water. I did not know that any of the 27s had a hard plastic rail (probably not original?). There are now a few vinyl rails that do not chalk (as much). John, I always use t he screws from the underside. Maybe it actually helps drain that area? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Boyce Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:43 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks Michael, On my 227 the rub rail is hard plastic that slides over the two flanges that are on the hull and deck sections. The plastic piece is attached with screws that go through the vertical section of the rail and in between the two flanges. A soft vinyl piece goes into groves in the rub rail to cover the screws and aluminum caps cover both ends of the rail. And it leaks! The rub rail design is dumb, the resistance to breakage of the hard plastic is near zero when it is new and much worse ten years later. The hull and deck flanges were pop riveted together and glassed on the interior since this interior section is or was covered by cabinetry or carpet full inspection has not been possible but I'd bet that some of the glass has failed or that one or more of the original screws went through it. Other versions of the CAL 227 had the rubberry rub rail, which I had on a CAL 25. This rail slipped over the two flanges without any flanges It is a better seal but becomes very chalky and after a few years many people put screws in from the bottom in order to keep it attached. A friend installed one on a CAL 28 by first heating it to make it very pliable and then stretching it so that when it cooled it would become very tight. This rubrail was continuous from a stern cap on starboard to one on port. Good luck on your project, the approach that was taken on Mariposa http://www.mariposasailing.com/hulldeck.html is probably the only one that would stop the leak. John B CAL 227 #650 Gotcha Again _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [2 Attachments] My Adminral is getting tired of the leaks: therefore I am. Magic has a teak rub rail with SS cap. A PO attached the teak to the hull with 5200, so removal will be destructive. What will I find under the teak? I assume the Cal 2-27 joint is an "outward flange" as shown in the attached files. Can anyone confirm this? I seem to remember at least one other Cal owner going through this on some old email threads... I know it'll take a boat buck or more, but I want a long term fix/repair; not a temporary "patch". A Happy Wife is a Happy Life... Thanks! Michael _____

I'm almost afraid to ask you what you named your sloop, John B. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Boyce Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 7:48 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks The plastic rub rail was original. I've had the boat since 1987. The cap was always screwed on horizontally. My 227 also had the same mast section as the 25-2. Other differences included an engine shaft that came out closer to the rudder than others making it very difficult to install a folding prop. The transom is down ~3 inches and the bow is up the same amount. There were only six boats made after this one so I think they were using whatever parts they had on hand. John B From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:50 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [1 Attachment] Since I just happened to be cutting up a CAL 25, here is a shot of that deck hull joint and the area that can trap water. I did not know that any of the 27s had a hard plastic rail (probably not original?). There are now a few vinyl rails that do not chalk (as much). John, I always use t he screws from the underside. Maybe it actually helps drain that area? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Boyce Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:43 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks Michael, On my 227 the rub rail is hard plastic that slides over the two flanges that are on the hull and deck sections. The plastic piece is attached with screws that go through the vertical section of the rail and in between the two flanges. A soft vinyl piece goes into groves in the rub rail to cover the screws and aluminum caps cover both ends of the rail. And it leaks! The rub rail design is dumb, the resistance to breakage of the hard plastic is near zero when it is new and much worse ten years later. The hull and deck flanges were pop riveted together and glassed on the interior since this interior section is or was covered by cabinetry or carpet full inspection has not been possible but I'd bet that some of the glass has failed or that one or more of the original screws went through it. Other versions of the CAL 227 had the rubberry rub rail, which I had on a CAL 25. This rail slipped over the two flanges without any flanges It is a better seal but becomes very chalky and after a few years many people put screws in from the bottom in order to keep it attached. A friend installed one on a CAL 28 by first heating it to make it very pliable and then stretching it so that when it cooled it would become very tight. This rubrail was continuous from a stern cap on starboard to one on port. Good luck on your project, the approach that was taken on Mariposa http://www.mariposasailing.com/hulldeck.html is probably the only one that would stop the leak. John B CAL 227 #650 Gotcha Again From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [2 Attachments] My Adminral is getting tired of the leaks: therefore I am. Magic has a teak rub rail with SS cap. A PO attached the teak to the hull with 5200, so removal will be destructive. What will I find under the teak? I assume the Cal 2-27 joint is an "outward flange" as shown in the attached files. Can anyone confirm this? I seem to remember at least one other Cal owner going through this on some old email threads... I know it'll take a boat buck or more, but I want a long term fix/repair; not a temporary "patch". A Happy Wife is a Happy Life... Thanks! Michael

My 25 was Gotcha, my 227 is Gotcha Again _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 7:58 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks I'm almost afraid to ask you what you named your sloop, John B. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Boyce Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 7:48 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks The plastic rub rail was original. I've had the boat since 1987. The cap was always screwed on horizontally. My 227 also had the same mast section as the 25-2. Other differences included an engine shaft that came out closer to the rudder than others making it very difficult to install a folding prop. The transom is down ~3 inches and the bow is up the same amount. There were only six boats made after this one so I think they were using whatever parts they had on hand. John B _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:50 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [1 Attachment] Since I just happened to be cutting up a CAL 25, here is a shot of that deck hull joint and the area that can trap water. I did not know that any of the 27s had a hard plastic rail (probably not original?). There are now a few vinyl rails that do not chalk (as much). John, I always use t he screws from the underside. Maybe it actually helps drain that area? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Boyce Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:43 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks Michael, On my 227 the rub rail is hard plastic that slides over the two flanges that are on the hull and deck sections. The plastic piece is attached with screws that go through the vertical section of the rail and in between the two flanges. A soft vinyl piece goes into groves in the rub rail to cover the screws and aluminum caps cover both ends of the rail. And it leaks! The rub rail design is dumb, the resistance to breakage of the hard plastic is near zero when it is new and much worse ten years later. The hull and deck flanges were pop riveted together and glassed on the interior since this interior section is or was covered by cabinetry or carpet full inspection has not been possible but I'd bet that some of the glass has failed or that one or more of the original screws went through it. Other versions of the CAL 227 had the rubberry rub rail, which I had on a CAL 25. This rail slipped over the two flanges without any flanges It is a better seal but becomes very chalky and after a few years many people put screws in from the bottom in order to keep it attached. A friend installed one on a CAL 28 by first heating it to make it very pliable and then stretching it so that when it cooled it would become very tight. This rubrail was continuous from a stern cap on starboard to one on port. Good luck on your project, the approach that was taken on Mariposa http://www.mariposasailing.com/hulldeck.html is probably the only one that would stop the leak. John B CAL 227 #650 Gotcha Again _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [2 Attachments] My Adminral is getting tired of the leaks: therefore I am. Magic has a teak rub rail with SS cap. A PO attached the teak to the hull with 5200, so removal will be destructive. What will I find under the teak? I assume the Cal 2-27 joint is an "outward flange" as shown in the attached files. Can anyone confirm this? I seem to remember at least one other Cal owner going through this on some old email threads... I know it'll take a boat buck or more, but I want a long term fix/repair; not a temporary "patch". A Happy Wife is a Happy Life... Thanks! Michael _____

I am thinking GPS only. All you would need is your cell phone and a $10 app. It would depend, much as the Vanderbilt start depends, on retracing a pre-determined approach to the line. You would do a practice calibration run where you sail the course you intend to sail to the line. The idea being there are two points in time that matter. The first point is when you start your approach to the line. The second point is when you cross the line. In your practice run, you supply both points to the app. In the real run, the app supplies the first point and hopefully you cross at the start gun. If the practice run and the real run are identical, you don't need the app, you will be on time. The largest error will be that you are not in exactly the same place with the same time remaining. The app would take out most of the error caused by that by knowing just time and distance. There are second order errors some of which could be taken out with the GPS information alone and some with full instrument input. But full instrument input is beyond the scope of what I am thinking of and I do not believe is necessary. Anyway, those are my thoughts. Allen On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 3:50 AM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: > ** > > > I would think the app would need input from several external devises. > Wind speed and direction (anemometer), through hull speedo to provide your > through the water speeds, digital compass and GPS to provide adjusted COG, > SOG (which could also provide drift or current)**** > > ** ** > > Then your program would require a complete set of polars for your boat, > sail plan etc. I think Demo has a program for developing polars for your > boat, based on empirical data collected during sailing.**** > > ** ** > > Would you also need some way to measure the actual load on your sails. > i.e. if you are headed to the line, on a close reach, trying to slow the > boat by luffing the sails, what input to the program would change your ETA? > **** > > ** ** > > It sounds like a very ambitious and complicated program. Based my view of > your website, you definitely have knowledge and resources to make this > happen.**** > > ** ** > > It would be nice to have all this in a “black box” gadget for less than a > boat buck. J**** > > ** ** > > Good luck**** > > ** ** > > john**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:55 AM > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer**** > > ** ** > > **** > > There are apps that will tell you your ETA to the point on a line you are > headed to. This will work during the return portion of the Vanderbilt > start. But as you know, by then you are already too early or too late. I > personally don't see the benefit of these programs because they are only > good for adjusting if you are early. If you are late, you are late. They > have other problems as well but even if they were perfect, if you are early > your remedy is to slow down, then you end up being on time but slow. **** > > ** ** > > I write programs as you know if you visit L-36.com. I am also a retired > measurement guy. I made a career out of figuring out how to remove errors > from measurements. I also race sailboats. This combination makes this a > very interesting problem.**** > > ** ** > > So, just to be clear, what I am thinking of is something that will tell > you when to start your approach to the line just as your 1 minute timed run > tells you on a Vanderbilt start. Only it works in current and you would > not have to do the first minute of your example 2 minutes start sequence. > You could just hang around and know when to head to the line.**** > > ** ** > > I just need to get motivated to take on a new big unknown project.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > ** ** > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 7:50 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote:* > *** > > **** > > Allen,**** > > **** > > I think I understand your problem from the explanation below. A variation > of the vanderbuilt start is what I learned when I started sailing/racing. > Sail away from the line on a tack that will match boat speed on a > reciprocal course back to the starting point. 1 min. out, one minute back. > **** > > **** > > I do not have a expensive chart plotter or even one of the newer more > accurate GPS. I can set a waypoint at a spot on the earth (starting line) > and set the GPS to show me an ETA to that point. Of course it is only as > accurate as my 10 year old GPS will calculate. **** > > **** > > And you are looking to have the GPS or Computer program to calculate the > ETA to a line on the earth rather than a specific point. (maybe a series of > points would work) I am not a computer engineer nor GPS programmer. I > would like to see if this application is available, I think it is > workable, but the science of this application is well beyond my experience. > **** > > **** > > Good luck,**** > > **** > > John**** > > **** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Friday, February 03, 2012 11:01 AM**** > > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer**** > > **** > > **** > > Michael, I also use a clear start watch. I also try for clear air. I > have done calculations to try and figure out what the relative advantages > of "clear air", "favored end"., and "more wind" are and "favored end", > which is what most people read about and where most of the boats are, is at > the bottom of the list unless the committee isn't at all good at setting > the line. I usually start away from the other boats as a result, typically > at the pin end with the rest of the fleet at the committee boat. I am > usually the first or second boat at the first mark and considering that > most of the fleet owes me time, as much as 68 seconds a mile, that isn't > bad.**** > > **** > > The Vanderbilt start is based on the principal that a boat will go the > same speed on a run at 135 degrees to the wind as it will on a beat at 45 > degrees to the wind. Therefore, if you know how long it takes you to turn > you and subtract that from the time you begin your start sequence (at the > line and heading away from it) then allow half the remaining time for your > return trip, you will be at the line when the gun goes off.**** > > **** > > However, this doesn't work if you sail in current, or if you can't get to > the right place to start the sequence, or if you want to approach the line > on a reach, or...**** > > **** > > The app I am proposing is just a way to do a timed approach without having > to time the thing with the run. If you know where you are, and you know > how long it will take you to get back to the line from that distance, you > can time it to be there on time. If you want to allow for some extra time > because of traffic, start your turn early, there can be a countdown on the > app.**** > > **** > > Personally I would like an app like this. I see from the replies that > most people do not and that certainly removes motivation for me to write > it. Maybe I don't need it. I typically win the start without it, > typically win the race, and have won our summer series for the last couple > of years. I won the Master Mariners by 10 minutes last year so maybe I > shouldn't even worry about the start. On the MM, I went for clear air, and > was a football field away from all the other boats at the start. That > particular starting line is not set perpendicular to the wind so a > Vanderbilt start would be impossible. We did our timed run by timing by > eye where we should be and timing how long it would take us to get to the > line from there. We did it the day before. How nice it would have been to > be able to calibrate that same day in the actual wind we were racing in. > You would not even need to calibrate at the starting line, just in the > same wind at the same approach angle.**** > > **** > > But whatever works for you. Best of luck on the race course.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > **** > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:06 AM, Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> wrote:**** > > **** > > All,**** > > **** > > A starting watch/timer is invaluable. We use a Ronstan ClearStart model. > With buoy racing, the race is often won at the start. Racing in a class of > boats with a wide range of handicap ratings, the general rule of thumb is > go for "clear air" and away from larger/faster competitors "dirty air". * > *** > > **** > > On Magic, we typically use the Vanderbilt Start. Google it. As "weekend > warriors" with rotating crew, it has proven to be a consistent winner for > us to be at the line at 0:00.**** > > **** > > Assign a crew member to operate the watch and announce time remaining till > start. Be at or near the start line at the 5-minute signal. The timer, > tactician, and helmsman need close coordination. Grinders, railmeat, and > trimmers should preload leward winches/sheets to be ready at all times. > Lazy sheets should not be underfoot in the cockpit.**** > > **** > > My .02 Worth,**** > > --Michael--**** > > **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, February 2, 2012 7:15 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market**** > > **** > > **** > > Getting a good start isn't all that hard. What works for me is a very > sophisticated devise that is attached to ones wrist. It is called a > TIMEX....with Chrono. Find yourself along the start-line during the 5 or 10 > minute warning, sail away with your timer set while on a coarse that will > give you an optimum return to the line. What electronics can not do is > assess the actions of the other boats and often finding the best position > at the start will require some quick un calculated manuvers.**** > > Too many electronics take the attention away from sailing fast in the > right direction. **** > > Mark**** > > **** > > ----- Original Message ----- **** > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> **** > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com **** > > *Sent:* Monday, January 30, 2012 1:46 PM**** > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market**** > > **** > > **** > > That was a nice watch, one of my competitors uses it. But what were are > talking about here uses GPS so you could be just sitting in one spot > luffing and the app would tell you when to when to head to the line, > assuming that is the approach you had the app train on. The watch was for > strict timed runs back away and back at constant speed if I understood > correctly. **** > > **** > > Let me give an example. On the Master Mariners last time we started by > running parallel to the line, which is aligned with the wind, not > perpendicular with it as is typical for a starting line. At about the > right time to the gun, we hardened up and headed to the line. We were > early so had to do little S curves to kill time. With a trained GPS app, > it would know how far you were from the line, how fast the boat would be > going at the line, and how long it takes to accelerate so it could tell you > exactly when to harden up.**** > > **** > > I might just have to write it myself.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > **** > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:17 PM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote:**** > > **** > > It is interesting that most of the race starting functionality that is > being discussed here was offered over twenty years ago on a Timex racing > watch that I had that cost about $50**** > > **** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:19 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com**** > > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market**** > > **** > > **** > > Timm was kind enough to run Expedition before one of the Master Mariners > races. It gave me a routing around the marks here in the bay. However, it > did not do that good a job with the current. We followed a model I put > together in Excel and won the race because of it.**** > > **** > > It actually isn't that hard to get a start line in something. You can do > that with any GPS by asking for track error (I think that is the term) to a > route between the ends of the line. That will tell you the distance to the > line. BC Racer will tell you how long it will take you to get to the line > on the course you are on. That costs $4. But if you are using GPS and > don't do something about the errors from lag, you can do better by eye.*** > * > > **** > > That said, can Expedition tell you when to turn around and head back to > the line? I think that would be the thing I want.**** > > **** > > I think Expedition is best for long races where it is helping you find the > best winds.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, <ng… [at] comcast.net> wrote:**** > > **** > > Allen, Their is software available named Expedition Tactical/Routing > Software. It takes data from your Okham or other instruments and your GPS > and displays it on your laptop. It actually creates the entire start line > between the two marks. Be ready to spend $1,350 for it, but many in the > Great Lakes have it for the long distance races, including me.**** > > **** > > Nick - Lake St Clair, MI - "Jade" Cal 92 (stll for sale) now have > "Affirmed" a Carroll Marine Tripp 36. **** > > **** > > check out www.affirmedracig.com very cool ! **** > ------------------------------ > > *From: *"Allen Edwards" <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To: *"Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent: *Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:49:45 PM > *Subject: *Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer - Apps on Android > Market > > **** > > I often wonder why nobody programs these kind of functions. Maybe it is > because I have a big heavy boat that takes time to get up to speed and > knowing I am a few seconds early means I need to slow the boat down and > will be slow at the start is different than the dingy racers who can sit > there and accelerate in just few seconds. The problem is that the effort > for writing such a program when you have to come up on the learning curve > is large and the market is probably small. **** > > **** > > I just spent about a man week on this set of pages to find waypoints and > create routes. It was fun and all that but not clear how many people are > going to be interested. I think I have 4 responses off this list and I > appreciate each one, but that also means most people don't care. So doing > another sail race application would have to be a labor of love.**** > > **** > > By the way, L-36.com gets about 30,000 page views a month. It also > happens to have about 30,000 pages on the site! Love that auto generated > stuff. I just added over 500 pages with the waypoint stuff alone. But > that is not enough to make more than beer money.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > sound like you are well into it already....:) I dont race Allen so the > specific of the requirements spec are not familiar to me. That is 90 > percent of the job. The rest is simple > > /ch**** > > **** > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > That would require multiple sensor inputs to calculate all the vectors. > Not sure it can be done unless you have a completely wireless setup on all > the instruments, which is almost possible now a days. **** > > **** > > No, it is simple. All you need is the GPS in the phone. You do a > practice run. Go to the line, turn and go away. Press the button right at > where you want to turn back to the line, turn the boat and build up speed > to the line. Press the button again when you get to the line. This > practice run should be approximately what you plan on doing. In use, you > start the app as you start your run away from the line. Ideally, you are > at the same distance from the line with the same amount of time left as at > practice at which point the app tells you to turn. If you are early or > late, it can make the calculation of what the difference in time to turn > is. The calculation involves adding or subtracting time based on your > practice speed at the line and using that to determine when you need to > start your turn. Simple calculation... for a computer. If you are late > starting your run away from the line, the program has you start your turn a > little closer to the line than in your practice run. Distance based on > speed at line during practice and time left.**** > > **** > > It is a perfect calculation for a computer and I am surprised nobody has > coded it up. Everyone just codes up how long it will take you to get to > the line at your current speed. What it is telling you is that you are > either early or late. Better to make an app that tells you how to be on > time. I think this would get you much closer to on time than the normal > app which has a 50 foot error in it. In what I am suggesting, most of the > errors cancel out.**** > > **** > > Maybe I will have to code it up myself. I will need a new project as soon > as the Light List Waypoint editor is documented.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > **** > > **** > > > > **** > > -- > /ch**** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 6841 (20120130) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com**** > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 6852 (20120202) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com**** > > **** > > **** > > ** ** > > **** > > >

John, Was your boat made in N.J.? Nemesis has a similar rub rail, and was #127 0f 135 3-30's. I've often wondered if the "regular" Cal rub rail would work if the plastic strip was removed. We are more than overdue for new rubber. BTW, thanks to all for your discussion of my rudder/tiller slop. Since I will soon have to replace the tiller (rot and delamination), I will address that whole situation then. Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma On Feb 4, 2012, at 4:48 AM, John Boyce wrote: > > The plastic rub rail was original. I've had the boat since 1987. > The cap was always screwed on horizontally. My 227 also had the > same mast section as the 25-2. Other differences included an engine > shaft that came out closer to the rudder than others making it very > difficult to install a folding prop. The transom is down ~3 inches > and the bow is up the same amount. > > There were only six boats made after this one so I think they were > using whatever parts they had on hand. > > > > John B > > > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) > Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:50 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [1 Attachment] > > > > > > Since I just happened to be cutting up a CAL 25, here is a shot of > that deck hull joint and the area that can trap water. I did not > know that any of the 27s had a hard plastic rail (probably not > original?). There are now a few vinyl rails that do not chalk (as > much). > > > > John, I always use t he screws from the underside. Maybe it > actually helps drain that area? > > > > Cheers > > Charlie > > > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of John Boyce > Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:43 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks > > > > > > > > > Michael, > > > > On my 227 the rub rail is hard plastic that slides over the two > flanges that are on the hull and deck sections. The plastic piece > is attached with screws that go through the vertical section of the > rail and in between the two flanges. A soft vinyl piece goes into > groves in the rub rail to cover the screws and aluminum caps cover > both ends of the rail. And it leaks! > > > > The rub rail design is dumb, the resistance to breakage of the hard > plastic is near zero when it is new and much worse ten years > later. The hull and deck flanges were pop riveted together and > glassed on the interior since this interior section is or was > covered by cabinetry or carpet full inspection has not been > possible but I'd bet that some of the glass has failed or that one > or more of the original screws went through it. > > > > Other versions of the CAL 227 had the rubberry rub rail, which I > had on a CAL 25. This rail slipped over the two flanges without > any flanges It is a better seal but becomes very chalky and after a > few years many people put screws in from the bottom in order to > keep it attached. A friend installed one on a CAL 28 by first > heating it to make it very pliable and then stretching it so that > when it cooled it would become very tight. This rubrail was > continuous from a stern cap on starboard to one on port. > > > > Good luck on your project, the approach that was taken on Mariposa > http://www.mariposasailing.com/hulldeck.html is probably the only > one that would stop the leak. > > > > John B > > > > CAL 227 #650 > > Gotcha Again > > > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of Michael D > Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:59 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [2 Attachments] > > > > > > My Adminral is getting tired of the leaks: therefore I am. > > > > Magic has a teak rub rail with SS cap. A PO attached the teak to > the hull with 5200, so removal will be destructive. What will I > find under the teak? I assume the Cal 2-27 joint is an "outward > flange" as shown in the attached files. Can anyone confirm this? > I seem to remember at least one other Cal owner going through this > on some old email threads... > > > > I know it'll take a boat buck or more, but I want a long term fix/ > repair; not a temporary "patch". > > > > A Happy Wife is a Happy Life... > > > > Thanks! > > Michael > > > > > > > > > >

I believe that the "regular rub rail would fit, the flanges that it attaches to are still under the plastic one. The end fittings are the only potential issue but they look close. On my Cal 25 the rubber rubrail was continuous around the bow and only had fittings at the stern. Personally I like the looks of the plastic one much better, it just serves no purpose, as soon as it touches a piling it breaks. John B _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fred Haas Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 1:34 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks John, Was your boat made in N.J.? Nemesis has a similar rub rail, and was #127 0f 135 3-30's. I've often wondered if the "regular" Cal rub rail would work if the plastic strip was removed. We are more than overdue for new rubber. BTW, thanks to all for your discussion of my rudder/tiller slop. Since I will soon have to replace the tiller (rot and delamination), I will address that whole situation then. Fred Haas 3-30 Nemesis Tacoma On Feb 4, 2012, at 4:48 AM, John Boyce wrote: The plastic rub rail was original. I've had the boat since 1987. The cap was always screwed on horizontally. My 227 also had the same mast section as the 25-2. Other differences included an engine shaft that came out closer to the rudder than others making it very difficult to install a folding prop. The transom is down ~3 inches and the bow is up the same amount. There were only six boats made after this one so I think they were using whatever parts they had on hand. John B _____ From: <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:50 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [1 Attachment] Since I just happened to be cutting up a CAL 25, here is a shot of that deck hull joint and the area that can trap water. I did not know that any of the 27s had a hard plastic rail (probably not original?). There are now a few vinyl rails that do not chalk (as much). John, I always use t he screws from the underside. Maybe it actually helps drain that area? Cheers Charlie From: <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Boyce Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:43 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks Michael, On my 227 the rub rail is hard plastic that slides over the two flanges that are on the hull and deck sections. The plastic piece is attached with screws that go through the vertical section of the rail and in between the two flanges. A soft vinyl piece goes into groves in the rub rail to cover the screws and aluminum caps cover both ends of the rail. And it leaks! The rub rail design is dumb, the resistance to breakage of the hard plastic is near zero when it is new and much worse ten years later. The hull and deck flanges were pop riveted together and glassed on the interior since this interior section is or was covered by cabinetry or carpet full inspection has not been possible but I'd bet that some of the glass has failed or that one or more of the original screws went through it. Other versions of the CAL 227 had the rubberry rub rail, which I had on a CAL 25. This rail slipped over the two flanges without any flanges It is a better seal but becomes very chalky and after a few years many people put screws in from the bottom in order to keep it attached. A friend installed one on a CAL 28 by first heating it to make it very pliable and then stretching it so that when it cooled it would become very tight. This rubrail was continuous from a stern cap on starboard to one on port. Good luck on your project, the approach that was taken on Mariposa http://www.mariposasailing.com/hulldeck.html is probably the only one that would stop the leak. John B CAL 227 #650 Gotcha Again _____ From: <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [2 Attachments] My Adminral is getting tired of the leaks: therefore I am. Magic has a teak rub rail with SS cap. A PO attached the teak to the hull with 5200, so removal will be destructive. What will I find under the teak? I assume the Cal 2-27 joint is an "outward flange" as shown in the attached files. Can anyone confirm this? I seem to remember at least one other Cal owner going through this on some old email threads... I know it'll take a boat buck or more, but I want a long term fix/repair; not a temporary "patch". A Happy Wife is a Happy Life... Thanks! Michael _____

Take a look at rubrails.com which shows the detail for the "hard plastic" component and the "soft vinyl" cover for it. I had this system on a Beachcomber 25 which did not have the Cal's interior fiberglass seam and, boy, was it a leaker. Marine Concepts, the builder of the Beachcomber, through-bolted the deck to the hull and covered the seam with the plastic unit, then through bolted the plastic unit. As I said, it was a leaker. There was only a thin bead of caulk between the deck and hull moldings. I have no rub rail on "Knackered", my Cal 28. I have a clear view of the fiberglass seam on the interior and it is still completely intact. I am considering purchasing a length of red industrial hose and splitting it lengthwise, then installing it over the seam on the exterior. Maybe not that pretty, but, would serve. Remember, she's knackered. My objective is to keep her sailing, not to restore her to perfection. George Barlow Cal 28, No. 155 "Knackered" Eagle Mountain Lake, Texas --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "John Boyce" <jecyob@...> wrote: > > I believe that the "regular rub rail would fit, the flanges that it attaches > to are still under the plastic one. The end fittings are the only potential > issue but they look close. On my Cal 25 the rubber rubrail was continuous > around the bow and only had fittings at the stern. Personally I like the > looks of the plastic one much better, it just serves no purpose, as soon as > it touches a piling it breaks. > > > > John > B > > > > _____ > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Fred Haas > Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 1:34 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks > > > > > > John, > > Was your boat made in N.J.? Nemesis has a similar rub rail, and was #127 0f > 135 3-30's. I've often wondered if the "regular" Cal rub rail would work if > the plastic strip was removed. We are more than overdue for new rubber. > > BTW, thanks to all for your discussion of my rudder/tiller slop. Since I > will soon have to replace the tiller (rot and delamination), I will address > that whole situation then. > > Fred Haas > > 3-30 Nemesis > > Tacoma > > > > > > > > On Feb 4, 2012, at 4:48 AM, John Boyce wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The plastic rub rail was original. I've had the boat since 1987. The cap > was always screwed on horizontally. My 227 also had the same mast section > as the 25-2. Other differences included an engine shaft that came out closer > to the rudder than others making it very difficult to install a folding > prop. The transom is down ~3 inches and the bow is up the same amount. > > There were only six boats made after this one so I think they were using > whatever parts they had on hand. > > > > John B > > > > _____ > > From: <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) > Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:50 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [1 Attachment] > > > > > > Since I just happened to be cutting up a CAL 25, here is a shot of that deck > hull joint and the area that can trap water. I did not know that any of the > 27s had a hard plastic rail (probably not original?). There are now a few > vinyl rails that do not chalk (as much). > > > > John, I always use t he screws from the underside. Maybe it actually helps > drain that area? > > > > Cheers > > Charlie > > > > From: <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Boyce > Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:43 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks > > > > > > > > > > > Michael, > > > > On my 227 the rub rail is hard plastic that slides over the two flanges > that are on the hull and deck sections. The plastic piece is attached with > screws that go through the vertical section of the rail and in between the > two flanges. A soft vinyl piece goes into groves in the rub rail to cover > the screws and aluminum caps cover both ends of the rail. And it leaks! > > > > The rub rail design is dumb, the resistance to breakage of the hard plastic > is near zero when it is new and much worse ten years later. The hull and > deck flanges were pop riveted together and glassed on the interior since > this interior section is or was covered by cabinetry or carpet full > inspection has not been possible but I'd bet that some of the glass has > failed or that one or more of the original screws went through it. > > > > Other versions of the CAL 227 had the rubberry rub rail, which I had on a > CAL 25. This rail slipped over the two flanges without any flanges It is a > better seal but becomes very chalky and after a few years many people put > screws in from the bottom in order to keep it attached. A friend installed > one on a CAL 28 by first heating it to make it very pliable and then > stretching it so that when it cooled it would become very tight. This > rubrail was continuous from a stern cap on starboard to one on port. > > > > Good luck on your project, the approach that was taken on Mariposa > http://www.mariposasailing.com/hulldeck.html is probably the only one that > would stop the leak. > > > > John B > > > > CAL 227 #650 > > Gotcha Again > > > > _____ > > From: <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael D > Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 10:59 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Hull to Deck Joint Leaks [2 Attachments] > > > > > > My Adminral is getting tired of the leaks: therefore I am. > > > > Magic has a teak rub rail with SS cap. A PO attached the teak to the hull > with 5200, so removal will be destructive. What will I find under the teak? > I assume the Cal 2-27 joint is an "outward flange" as shown in the attached > files. Can anyone confirm this? I seem to remember at least one other Cal > owner going through this on some old email threads... > > > > I know it'll take a boat buck or more, but I want a long term fix/repair; > not a temporary "patch". > > > > A Happy Wife is a Happy Life... > > > > Thanks! > > Michael > > > > _____ >

I have been watching the conversation on hull-to-deck joint hoping to hear someone suggest where to get replacement rubrails. I have heard of a company in California that sells rubrail for the Cal25 but at $500 or so. There must be other products out there that will fit and look OK and not cost more than I paid for the boat! Any ideas? Cheers, Mark Cosens s/v Sue Two

Mark, I parceled out the last one in my attic last year. Contact Rudy Nickerson at D&R Marine. D & R Marine 14 Water St Assonet, MA 02702 Ph 508 644-3001 Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Cosens Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 7:14 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Replacement rubrail for Cal25 I have been watching the conversation on hull-to-deck joint hoping to hear someone suggest where to get replacement rubrails. I have heard of a company in California that sells rubrail for the Cal25 but at $500 or so. There must be other products out there that will fit and look OK and not cost more than I paid for the boat! Any ideas? Cheers, Mark Cosens s/v Sue Two

Steve Seals <http://www.sealsspars.com/gunnelcatalog.html> In case the link does not work.............http://www.sealsspars.com/gunnelcatalog.html Great guy and knows Cals Walter Cal 34 #301 On 02/04/2012 06:13 PM, Mark Cosens wrote: > > I have been watching the conversation on hull-to-deck joint hoping to > hear someone suggest where to get replacement rubrails. I have heard > of a company in California that sells rubrail for the Cal25 but at > $500 or so. There must be other products out there that will fit and > look OK and not cost more than I paid for the boat! Any ideas? > Cheers, > Mark Cosens > s/v Sue Two >

http://www.drmarine.com/products.asp?cat=278 Check out D&R Marine. I bought my rubrail from there, as did a few other boats from my club. Its NON-Yellowing/Non-Chalking... I sail out of Detroit and the ones that our fleet purchased from SEALS SPARS did yellow and chalk after 2 seasons. Price is about 300 bucks for almost 60 ft as I remember. They gave me way to much. I have had mine for 6 years and it looks new. George Cal25 #630 and 1231 To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: wa… [at] cal34.com Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 19:08:40 -0600 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Replacement rubrail for Cal25 Steve Seals In case the link does not work.............http://www.sealsspars.com/gunnelcatalog.html Great guy and knows Cals Walter Cal 34 #301 On 02/04/2012 06:13 PM, Mark Cosens wrote: I have been watching the conversation on hull-to-deck joint hoping to hear someone suggest where to get replacement rubrails. I have heard of a company in California that sells rubrail for the Cal25 but at $500 or so. There must be other products out there that will fit and look OK and not cost more than I paid for the boat! Any ideas? Cheers, Mark Cosens s/v Sue Two

I'm wondering, does my Garmin 76 tell me my ETA to an MOB to within a minute, or to a second? If it is to a minute, it beats getting mixed up with the boats in the next start, or being really grossly late. And doing a Vanderbilt start (Vanderbilt is my middle name...my Mother said I could make up any middle name I wanted, and I don't think Hilton was much of a sailboat racer..am I wrong? I never use the middle name, haven't used it in many decades, so it never fails to amuse me when I receive a letter from some marketer with that middle name. Another thing, when you get ready to make the reverse turn to the start, don't you really HATE IT when some other racers are zooming toward you on a starboard tack get in you way? Aarghh! Jerry PS. Another idea may be to time yourself starting from a starboard to port turn on the start line so you don't have to guesstimate so much how long the start run turn will take. I've never tried it, so I don't know if it's practical.

Yes Jerry It's practical! I started many races from the Golden Gate YC start line where north end of the line was X buoy and the "boat" end was the flag on shore. With the usual west or southwest wind the inboard end was most favored on a flood tide. I often started on the port tack just off the rocks and port tacked the whole fleet, other times I took a stern or two before coming over to get better relief inshore. I would also start on Stb. at the "boat" end and call for "sea room" before tacking to port. With strong tides I have seen boats as big as a Santa Cruz 70 do a dinghy start with kevlar/graphite flogging 2 boat lengths from the line. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Regatta basic & start timer I'm wondering, does my Garmin 76 tell me my ETA to an MOB to within a minute, or to a second? If it is to a minute, it beats getting mixed up with the boats in the next start, or being really grossly late. And doing a Vanderbilt start (Vanderbilt is my middle name...my Mother said I could make up any middle name I wanted, and I don't think Hilton was much of a sailboat racer..am I wrong? I never use the middle name, haven't used it in many decades, so it never fails to amuse me when I receive a letter from some marketer with that middle name. Another thing, when you get ready to make the reverse turn to the start, don't you really HATE IT when some other racers are zooming toward you on a starboard tack get in you way? Aarghh! Jerry PS. Another idea may be to time yourself starting from a starboard to port turn on the start line so you don't have to guesstimate so much how long the start run turn will take. I've never tried it, so I don't know if it's practical.