Farlonne Islands MOB disaster, near MOB drowning at our docks Thursday.

I am reading about the horrific mishap this week end involving a 38' racer that floundered onto the Farlone Rocks while trying to rescue four of its crew members that washed over board when the boat was smacked and rolled on its side by a boarding wave. Three were fortunate to be rescued by helocpter and a recue diver which were winched up in a litter. One crew was deceased, and the four remaining crew are still missing a presumed lost after an additional day of searching, which was called off minutes ago, to-nite. Survival expectancy in the icy Pacific waters is less than an hour, so we have five fatalities. But one need not be crewing in a racing yacht going balls to the wall in treacherous seas to become a man overboard (M.O.B.) fatality. It can happen right here in Marina del Rey, as it very nearly did at my dock Thursday evening at sunset. I'd come down to my boat, which I rarely do on weekdays, to trouble shoot my recently cranky starting out board and pick up some scrubbing supplies to prep/ for some painting I was planning at a job site. As an afterthought, I went down the ramp of an adjacent dock, closer to where I was parked, to refill a water spray bottle from a dock box tap, and as I did, squeezed passed a typically portly retired stay aboard boater who I'd waved to a minute before while was in the midst of cooking dinner from the cockpit of his sailboat, using one of those popular rail mounted grills. He'd run out of fuel, and was lifting a spare propane bottle out of his dock box. I had just gotten back to my van , was putting stuff away when I heard a dull 'thunk' sound followed by the faint sound of a splash. I figured I probably should investigate, pushing the possibility of a worse case scenario that popped in my head, when I heard two woman, who were strolling past at just that moment call out "Are You O.K.?" ...nothing...and again "Are you o.k.? They walked further along the railing for a better view and leaned over again. "Are YOU O.K.?!". Finally, a response, a barely audible man's voice. The Gals turned around, saw me, and said "There's a guy in the water" Just what I was afraid of, The fellow had lost his balance getting back in his boat; I was now already having visions of having to jump in to save him. I rushed over to the gate, feeling in my pocket for my keys as I went, opened the gate, sped down the ramp and onto the dock finger hidden by his high freeboard Erricson 27. The rather portly fellow, perhaps between 260 to 290 lbs? was indeed in the drink, his head just above the water, and he was desperately clutching his rear mooring line with a badly bleeding hand. My sailing buddy Eric was already there, having already gotten to the gate before me, with the two little gals on the narrow dock finger, leaning over the water. Eric said, "I can't pull you out, I've got a torn rotor cuff in one shoulder, and a broken bone spur in my other. The two middle age women were barely five feet tall, and I have a bad back. I said, "I'll run and get my boarding ladder, shall I call for help from the Harbor Patrol?"...(big mistake..'de Nile', 'de Nile'). The fellow said. "Oh, please don't do that!" I could smell a wiff of alcohol on his breath, and he was very embarrassed at what had just happened, as I'm sure I or anyone else would be at that moment. So, against my better judgement, I ran around the ramps and sea wall, over to my dock, down the dock to my boat which was closer to the end of the dock, unlocked my hatch, dove under floating cushions and PFD's, dragging out my boarding ladder, grabbed a paddle (I'd seen a low freeboard hull of a high tech racing dinghy squeezed behind a partially deflated dinghy on the other side of his boat, thinking that might be an option to scoop him up if the ladder failed, and maybe I could paddle it out and around his boat). I dashed down my dock, up the ramp, to the next dock, down the ramp and onto the dock, to the first finger. Luckily, his boat is next to the seawall, otherwise, he'd have been out of luck, and no one would have known he'd fallen in. I set up the ladder on the dock, tied it with the lose end of his mooring line, and I could tell right away, it wasn't going to work. The fellow was very weak, he was very heavy, and my ladder was designed to hook over a gunwale, and not capable of supporting his weight on the ends of it's loops against the dock surface. Neither was he strong enough to hang onto the dock. As he tried to step onto the lowest rungs, his legs floated out under the dock, leaving him on his back rather than vertical. But at least he had something to secure him in place where he could rest. The little racer dingy was all tied up, jammed under the inflatable and wouldn't be easy to free, but an option if all else failed. I then dashed back around to my boat, jumped inside, got on channel 16 and called in M.O.B., directing the operator to the location, trying to keep my cool, to the right basin, and the right fairway, between my dock and the adjacent one. The Harbor Patrol said they'd be right over. I ran back around to the M.O.B., and in five minutes I could hear the thundering sound of a big diesel idling out in the basin, but, without seeing anything, not entering our fairway. I called for one of the little gals to run out to the end of the dock and guide the rescue boat in; by now it was pretty dark. The Baywatch Rescue Boat pulled into the fairway, and first crew, and then, the two crew couldn't pull him up, couldn't get a floatation belt around him from the stern of their boat till one, wearing a half wetsuit, hopped in the water. By now a second rescue boat, the gray catamaran, was on scene in the fairway. It took two strong guys on the finger, and one pushing up from inside the water, to drag up and roll the fellow up onto the finger, where he lay immobile and exhausted for several minutes, till we could get him up and help him into his boat. Luckily, he was cold, wet, very tired, but otherwise, OK. And able to change out of his soaking wet clothes. It had taken four sailors, two gals,and two guys, all at the right time and the right place, and four very professional rescuers who were close by to make the save. If anything had been different, if he'd been offshore, or if we hadn't been there being observant, and keeping our heads, the outcome would have been very bad, the kind we too often read about in the water "Body of boater found floating in the water". It happened on my dock several years before. It happened to a popular sail maker, Rui of "Rooster Sails", in the Bay Area last June .It was sobering for me, for my dock mate. And it leads me to wonder how adequate the rescue gear is on these boats. They have no full supporting rescue harness aboard, just a floatation belt, they don't have a crane, davit, or an electric winch, or even multiple pulleys to lift a very heavy, very incapacitated person out of the water. In fact, they have less rescue gear, a boom and tackle with a life sling horse shoe buoy, than the average well equipped sailboat has! And I shudder to think what would have happened if these two boats had been well off shore when this happened, as was the case two days before on Tuesday evening of this week when they both took off speeding out of the Marina, for Playa del Rey to attend to a big cabin cruiser that had lost power. It turned out that they eventually left that boat drifting as it was far enough off shore to allow time for a tow boat to retrieve it without further assistance. And what if this fellow was MOB in rough water? How long would it have taken them to get him out, if it was going to take two boats and four strong crewmen to do it, could it have been done quickly enough to save him? I wonder. Gerald Sobel, G Basin.

On 4/16/2012 4:55 AM, Gerald Sobel wrote: > I am reading about the horrific mishap this week end involving a 38' > racer that floundered onto the Farlone Rocks while trying to rescue > four of its crew members that washed over board when the boat was > smacked and rolled on its side by a boarding wave. Three were > fortunate to be rescued by helocpter and a recue diver which were > winched up in a litter. One crew was deceased, and the four remaining > crew are still missing a presumed lost after an additional day of > searching, which was called off minutes ago, to-nite. Survival > expectancy in the icy Pacific waters is less than an hour, so we have > five fatalities. I had just read the _Practical Sailor_ article on the deaths in the last Chicago-Mackinac race and then heard news reports about the latest losses. As with Jerry's observations about an event in his marina, below, the lesson is that things are always going to be worse than we expect when an emergency arises. We tend to dismiss safety issues by adopting illusions of control and rescue. Cold, harsh weather, injuries, mistakes, and equipment failures all conspire to make our plans illusory. By coincidence, I'd had my every-two-years CPR training this weekend, so safety issues were on my mind. We all need to pay attention. Chris Campbell > > But one need not be crewing in a racing yacht going balls to the wall > in treacherous seas to become a man overboard (M.O.B.) fatality. It > can happen right here in Marina del Rey, as it very nearly did at my > dock Thursday evening at sunset. I'd come down to my boat, which I > rarely do on weekdays, to trouble shoot my recently cranky starting > out board and pick up some scrubbing supplies to prep/ for some > painting I was planning at a job site. As an afterthought, I went down > the ramp of an adjacent dock, closer to where I was parked, to refill > a water spray bottle from a dock box tap, and as I did, squeezed > passed a typically portly retired stay aboard boater who I'd waved > to a minute before while was in the midst of cooking dinner from the > cockpit of his sailboat, using one of those popular rail mounted > grills. He'd run out of fuel, and was lifting a spare propane bottle > out of his dock box. I had just gotten back to my van , was putting > stuff away when I heard a dull 'thunk' sound followed by the faint > sound of a splash. I figured I probably should investigate, pushing > the possibility of a worse case scenario that popped in my head, when > I heard two woman, who were strolling past at just that moment call > out "Are You O.K.?" ...nothing...and again "Are you o.k.? They walked > further along the railing for a better view and leaned over again. > "Are YOU O.K.?!". Finally, a response, a barely audible man's voice. > The Gals turned around, saw me, and said "There's a guy in the water" > Just what I was afraid of, The fellow had lost his balance getting > back in his boat; I was now already having visions of having to jump > in to save him. I rushed over to the gate, feeling in my pocket for my > keys as I went, opened the gate, sped down the ramp and onto the dock > finger hidden by his high freeboard Erricson 27. > The rather portly fellow, perhaps between 260 to 290 lbs? was indeed > in the drink, his head just above the water, and he was desperately > clutching his rear mooring line with a badly bleeding hand. My sailing > buddy Eric was already there, having already gotten to the gate before > me, with the two little gals on the narrow dock finger, leaning over > the water. Eric said, "I can't pull you out, I've got a torn rotor > cuff in one shoulder, and a broken bone spur in my other. The two > middle age women were barely five feet tall, and I have a bad back. I > said, "I'll run and get my boarding ladder, shall I call for help > from the Harbor Patrol?"...(big mistake..'de Nile', 'de Nile'). The > fellow said. "Oh, please don't do that!" I could smell a wiff of > alcohol on his breath, and he was very embarrassed at what had just > happened, as I'm sure I or anyone else would be at that moment. So, > against my better judgement, I ran around the ramps and sea wall, over > to my dock, down the dock to my boat which was closer to the end of > the dock, unlocked my hatch, dove under floating cushions and PFD's, > dragging out my boarding ladder, grabbed a paddle (I'd seen a low > freeboard hull of a high tech racing dinghy squeezed behind a > partially deflated dinghy on the other side of his boat, thinking that > might be an option to scoop him up if the ladder failed, and maybe I > could paddle it out and around his boat). I dashed down my dock, up > the ramp, to the next dock, down the ramp and onto the dock, to the > first finger. Luckily, his boat is next to the seawall, otherwise, > he'd have been out of luck, and no one would have known he'd fallen in. > > I set up the ladder on the dock, tied it with the lose end of his > mooring line, and I could tell right away, it wasn't going to work. > The fellow was very weak, he was very heavy, and my ladder was > designed to hook over a gunwale, and not capable of supporting his > weight on the ends of it's loops against the dock surface. Neither was > he strong enough to hang onto the dock. As he tried to step onto the > lowest rungs, his legs floated out under the dock, leaving him on his > back rather than vertical. But at least he had something to secure him > in place where he could rest. The little racer dingy was all tied up, > jammed under the inflatable and wouldn't be easy to free, but an > option if all else failed. I then dashed back around to my boat, > jumped inside, got on channel 16 and called in M.O.B., directing the > operator to the location, trying to keep my cool, to the right basin, > and the right fairway, between my dock and the adjacent one. The > Harbor Patrol said they'd be right over. I ran back around to the > M.O.B., and in five minutes I could hear the thundering sound of a big > diesel idling out in the basin, but, without seeing anything, not > entering our fairway. I called for one of the little gals to run out > to the end of the dock and guide the rescue boat in; by now it was > pretty dark. > > The Baywatch Rescue Boat pulled into the fairway, and first crew, and > then, the two crew couldn't pull him up, couldn't get a floatation > belt around him from the stern of their boat till one, wearing a half > wetsuit, hopped in the water. By now a second rescue boat, the gray > catamaran, was on scene in the fairway. It took two strong guys on the > finger, and one pushing up from inside the water, to drag up and roll > the fellow up onto the finger, where he lay immobile and exhausted for > several minutes, till we could get him up and help him into his boat. > Luckily, he was cold, wet, very tired, but otherwise, OK. And able to > change out of his soaking wet clothes. > > It had taken four sailors, two gals,and two guys, all at the right > time and the right place, and four very professional rescuers who were > close by to make the save. If anything had been different, if he'd > been offshore, or if we hadn't been there being observant, and keeping > our heads, the outcome would have been very bad, the kind we too often > read about in the water "Body of boater found floating in the water". > It happened on my dock several years before. It happened to a popular > sail maker, Rui of "Rooster Sails", in the Bay Area last June .It was > sobering for me, for my dock mate. And it leads me to wonder how > adequate the rescue gear is on these boats. They have no full > supporting rescue harness aboard, just a floatation belt, they don't > have a crane, davit, or an electric winch, or even multiple pulleys to > lift a very heavy, very incapacitated person out of the water. In > fact, they have less rescue gear, a boom and tackle with a life sling > horse shoe buoy, than the average well equipped sailboat has! And I > shudder to think what would have happened if these two boats had been > well off shore when this happened, as was the case two days before on > Tuesday evening of this week when they both took off speeding out of > the Marina, for Playa del Rey to attend to a big cabin cruiser that > had lost power. It turned out that they eventually left that boat > drifting as it was far enough off shore to allow time for a tow boat > to retrieve it without further assistance. And what if this fellow was > MOB in rough water? How long would it have taken them to get him out, > if it was going to take two boats and four strong crewmen to do it, > could it have been done quickly enough to save him? I wonder. > Gerald Sobel, G Basin. >

One of my additions to my Cal 9.2 was a stainless steel stern boarding ladder. I tried to use the emergency Plastimo rope ladder but found that it was not adequate when I was tired. I single hand and also enjoy swimming in the coves, thus necessity.. If you land in the drink, try to get back on board alone, don't assume you can do it, try it, then try it one handed, try it after swimming for 1/2 hr etc..... On 4/16/2012 10:13 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: > > On 4/16/2012 4:55 AM, Gerald Sobel wrote: > >> I am reading about the horrific mishap this week end involving a 38' >> racer that floundered onto the Farlone Rocks while trying to rescue >> four of its crew members that washed over board when the boat was >> smacked and rolled on its side by a boarding wave. Three were >> fortunate to be rescued by helocpter and a recue diver which were >> winched up in a litter. One crew was deceased, and the four remaining >> crew are still missing a presumed lost after an additional day of >> searching, which was called off minutes ago, to-nite. Survival >> expectancy in the icy Pacific waters is less than an hour, so we have >> five fatalities. > > I had just read the _Practical Sailor_ article on the deaths in the > last Chicago-Mackinac race and then heard news reports about the > latest losses. As with Jerry's observations about an event in his > marina, below, the lesson is that things are always going to be worse > than we expect when an emergency arises. We tend to dismiss safety > issues by adopting illusions of control and rescue. Cold, harsh > weather, injuries, mistakes, and equipment failures all conspire to > make our plans illusory. By coincidence, I'd had my every-two-years > CPR training this weekend, so safety issues were on my mind. We all > need to pay attention. > > Chris Campbell >> >> But one need not be crewing in a racing yacht going balls to the wall >> in treacherous seas to become a man overboard (M.O.B.) fatality. It >> can happen right here in Marina del Rey, as it very nearly did at my >> dock Thursday evening at sunset. I'd come down to my boat, which I >> rarely do on weekdays, to trouble shoot my recently cranky starting >> out board and pick up some scrubbing supplies to prep/ for some >> painting I was planning at a job site. As an afterthought, I went >> down the ramp of an adjacent dock, closer to where I was parked, to >> refill a water spray bottle from a dock box tap, and as I did, >> squeezed passed a typically portly retired stay aboard boater who >> I'd waved to a minute before while was in the midst of cooking dinner >> from the cockpit of his sailboat, using one of those popular rail >> mounted grills. He'd run out of fuel, and was lifting a spare propane >> bottle out of his dock box. I had just gotten back to my van , was >> putting stuff away when I heard a dull 'thunk' sound followed by the >> faint sound of a splash. I figured I probably should investigate, >> pushing the possibility of a worse case scenario that popped in my >> head, when I heard two woman, who were strolling past at just that >> moment call out "Are You O.K.?" ...nothing...and again "Are you o.k.? >> They walked further along the railing for a better view and leaned >> over again. "Are YOU O.K.?!". Finally, a response, a barely audible >> man's voice. The Gals turned around, saw me, and said "There's a guy >> in the water" Just what I was afraid of, The fellow had lost his >> balance getting back in his boat; I was now already having visions of >> having to jump in to save him. I rushed over to the gate, feeling in >> my pocket for my keys as I went, opened the gate, sped down the ramp >> and onto the dock finger hidden by his high freeboard Erricson 27. >> The rather portly fellow, perhaps between 260 to 290 lbs? was indeed >> in the drink, his head just above the water, and he was desperately >> clutching his rear mooring line with a badly bleeding hand. My >> sailing buddy Eric was already there, having already gotten to the >> gate before me, with the two little gals on the narrow dock finger, >> leaning over the water. Eric said, "I can't pull you out, I've got a >> torn rotor cuff in one shoulder, and a broken bone spur in my other. >> The two middle age women were barely five feet tall, and I have a bad >> back. I said, "I'll run and get my boarding ladder, shall I call for >> help from the Harbor Patrol?"...(big mistake..'de Nile', 'de Nile'). >> The fellow said. "Oh, please don't do that!" I could smell a wiff of >> alcohol on his breath, and he was very embarrassed at what had just >> happened, as I'm sure I or anyone else would be at that moment. So, >> against my better judgement, I ran around the ramps and sea wall, >> over to my dock, down the dock to my boat which was closer to the end >> of the dock, unlocked my hatch, dove under floating cushions and >> PFD's, dragging out my boarding ladder, grabbed a paddle (I'd seen a >> low freeboard hull of a high tech racing dinghy squeezed behind a >> partially deflated dinghy on the other side of his boat, thinking >> that might be an option to scoop him up if the ladder failed, and >> maybe I could paddle it out and around his boat). I dashed down my >> dock, up the ramp, to the next dock, down the ramp and onto the dock, >> to the first finger. Luckily, his boat is next to the seawall, >> otherwise, he'd have been out of luck, and no one would have known >> he'd fallen in. >> >> I set up the ladder on the dock, tied it with the lose end of his >> mooring line, and I could tell right away, it wasn't going to work. >> The fellow was very weak, he was very heavy, and my ladder was >> designed to hook over a gunwale, and not capable of supporting his >> weight on the ends of it's loops against the dock surface. Neither >> was he strong enough to hang onto the dock. As he tried to step onto >> the lowest rungs, his legs floated out under the dock, leaving him on >> his back rather than vertical. But at least he had something to >> secure him in place where he could rest. The little racer dingy was >> all tied up, jammed under the inflatable and wouldn't be easy to >> free, but an option if all else failed. I then dashed back around to >> my boat, jumped inside, got on channel 16 and called in M.O.B., >> directing the operator to the location, trying to keep my cool, to >> the right basin, and the right fairway, between my dock and the >> adjacent one. The Harbor Patrol said they'd be right over. I ran >> back around to the M.O.B., and in five minutes I could hear the >> thundering sound of a big diesel idling out in the basin, but, >> without seeing anything, not entering our fairway. I called for one >> of the little gals to run out to the end of the dock and guide the >> rescue boat in; by now it was pretty dark. >> >> The Baywatch Rescue Boat pulled into the fairway, and first crew, and >> then, the two crew couldn't pull him up, couldn't get a floatation >> belt around him from the stern of their boat till one, wearing a half >> wetsuit, hopped in the water. By now a second rescue boat, the gray >> catamaran, was on scene in the fairway. It took two strong guys on >> the finger, and one pushing up from inside the water, to drag up and >> roll the fellow up onto the finger, where he lay immobile and >> exhausted for several minutes, till we could get him up and help him >> into his boat. Luckily, he was cold, wet, very tired, but otherwise, >> OK. And able to change out of his soaking wet clothes. >> >> It had taken four sailors, two gals,and two guys, all at the right >> time and the right place, and four very professional rescuers who >> were close by to make the save. If anything had been different, if >> he'd been offshore, or if we hadn't been there being observant, and >> keeping our heads, the outcome would have been very bad, the kind we >> too often read about in the water "Body of boater found floating in >> the water". It happened on my dock several years before. It happened >> to a popular sail maker, Rui of "Rooster Sails", in the Bay Area >> last June .It was sobering for me, for my dock mate. And it leads me >> to wonder how adequate the rescue gear is on these boats. They have >> no full supporting rescue harness aboard, just a floatation belt, >> they don't have a crane, davit, or an electric winch, or even >> multiple pulleys to lift a very heavy, very incapacitated person out >> of the water. In fact, they have less rescue gear, a boom and tackle >> with a life sling horse shoe buoy, than the average well equipped >> sailboat has! And I shudder to think what would have happened if >> these two boats had been well off shore when this happened, as was >> the case two days before on Tuesday evening of this week when they >> both took off speeding out of the Marina, for Playa del Rey to attend >> to a big cabin cruiser that had lost power. It turned out that they >> eventually left that boat drifting as it was far enough off shore to >> allow time for a tow boat to retrieve it without further assistance. >> And what if this fellow was MOB in rough water? How long would it >> have taken them to get him out, if it was going to take two boats and >> four strong crewmen to do it, could it have been done quickly enough >> to save him? I wonder. >> Gerald Sobel, G Basin. > >

There IS another way to get to the Farallon islands http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2011/05/25/SPH01JKDRD.DTL&object=%2Fg%2Fav%2Fmovies%2F2011%2F05%2F24%2FGGBridge_Farallon_957903348001.bcv From: roline <ro… [at] charter.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Farlonne Islands MOB disaster, near MOB drowning at our docks Thursday. One of my additions to my Cal 9.2 was a stainless steel stern boarding ladder. I tried to use the emergency Plastimo rope ladder but found that it was not adequate when I was tired. I single hand and also enjoy swimming in the coves, thus necessity.. If you land in the drink, try to get back on board alone, don't assume you can do it, try it, then try it one handed, try it after swimming for 1/2 hr etc..... On 4/16/2012 10:13 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: >On 4/16/2012 4:55 AM, Gerald Sobel wrote: > >>I am reading about the horrific mishap this week end involving a 38' racer that floundered onto the Farlone Rocks while trying to rescue four of its crew members that washed over board when the boat was smacked and rolled on its side by a boarding wave. Three were fortunate to be rescued by helocpter and a recue diver which were winched up in a litter. One crew was deceased, and the four remaining crew are still missing a presumed lost after an additional day of searching, which was called off minutes ago, to-nite. Survival expectancy in the icy Pacific waters is less than an hour, so we have five fatalities. >> >I had just read the Practical Sailor article on the deaths in the last Chicago-Mackinac race and then heard news reports about the latest losses. As with Jerry's observations about an event in his marina, below, the lesson is that things are always going to be worse than we expect when an emergency arises. We tend to dismiss safety issues by adopting illusions of control and rescue. Cold, harsh weather, injuries, mistakes, and equipment failures all conspire to make our plans illusory. By coincidence, I'd had my every-two-years CPR training this weekend, so safety issues were on my mind. We all need to pay attention. > >Chris Campbell > > >>But one need not be crewing in a racing yacht going balls to the wall in treacherous seas to become a man overboard (M.O.B.) fatality. It can happen right here in Marina del Rey, as it very nearly did at my dock Thursday evening at sunset. I'd come down to my boat, which I rarely do on weekdays, to trouble shoot my recently cranky starting out board and pick up some scrubbing supplies to prep/ for some painting I was planning at a job site. As an afterthought, I went down the ramp of an adjacent dock, closer to where I was parked, to refill a water spray bottle from a dock box tap, and as I did, squeezed passed a typically portly retired stay aboard boater who I'd waved to a minute before while was in the midst of cooking dinner from the cockpit of his sailboat, using one of those popular rail mounted grills. He'd run out of fuel, and was lifting a spare propane bottle out of his dock box. I had just gotten back to my van , was putting stuff away when I heard a dull 'thunk' sound followed by the faint sound of a splash. I figured I probably should investigate, pushing the possibility of a worse case scenario that popped in my head, when I heard two woman, who were strolling past at just that moment call out "Are You O.K.?" ...nothing...and again "Are you o.k.? They walked further along the railing for a better view and leaned over again. "Are YOU O.K.?!". Finally, a response, a barely audible man's voice. The Gals turned around, saw me, and said "There's a guy in the water" Just what I was afraid of, The fellow had lost his balance getting back in his boat; I was now already having visions of having to jump in to save him. I rushed over to the gate, feeling in my pocket for my keys as I went, opened the gate, sped down the ramp and onto the dock finger hidden by his high freeboard Erricson 27. >>The rather portly fellow, perhaps between 260 to 290 lbs? was indeed in the drink, his head just above the water, and he was desperately clutching his rear mooring line with a badly bleeding hand. My sailing buddy Eric was already there, having already gotten to the gate before me, with the two little gals on the narrow dock finger, leaning over the water. Eric said, "I can't pull you out, I've got a torn rotor cuff in one shoulder, and a broken bone spur in my other. The two middle age women were barely five feet tall, and I have a bad back. I said, "I'll run and get my boarding ladder, shall I call for help from the Harbor Patrol?"...(big mistake..'de Nile', 'de Nile'). The fellow said. "Oh, please don't do that!" I could smell a wiff of alcohol on his breath, and he was very embarrassed at what had just happened, as I'm sure I or anyone else would be at that moment. So, against my better judgement, I ran around the ramps and sea wall, over to my dock, down the dock to my boat which was closer to the end of the dock, unlocked my hatch, dove under floating cushions and PFD's, dragging out my boarding ladder, grabbed a paddle (I'd seen a low freeboard hull of a high tech racing dinghy squeezed behind a partially deflated dinghy on the other side of his boat, thinking that might be an option to scoop him up if the ladder failed, and maybe I could paddle it out and around his boat). I dashed down my dock, up the ramp, to the next dock, down the ramp and onto the dock, to the first finger. Luckily, his boat is next to the seawall, otherwise, he'd have been out of luck, and no one would have known he'd fallen in. >> >>I set up the ladder on the dock, tied it with the lose end of his mooring line, and I could tell right away, it wasn't going to work. The fellow was very weak, he was very heavy, and my ladder was designed to hook over a gunwale, and not capable of supporting his weight on the ends of it's loops against the dock surface. Neither was he strong enough to hang onto the dock. As he tried to step onto the lowest rungs, his legs floated out under the dock, leaving him on his back rather than vertical. But at least he had something to secure him in place where he could rest. The little racer dingy was all tied up, jammed under the inflatable and wouldn't be easy to free, but an option if all else failed. I then dashed back around to my boat, jumped inside, got on channel 16 and called in M.O.B., directing the operator to the location, trying to keep my cool, to the right basin, and the right fairway, between my dock and the adjacent one. The Harbor Patrol said they'd be right over. I ran back around to the M.O.B., and in five minutes I could hear the thundering sound of a big diesel idling out in the basin, but, without seeing anything, not entering our fairway. I called for one of the little gals to run out to the end of the dock and guide the rescue boat in; by now it was pretty dark. >> >>The Baywatch Rescue Boat pulled into the fairway, and first crew, and then, the two crew couldn't pull him up, couldn't get a floatation belt around him from the stern of their boat till one, wearing a half wetsuit, hopped in the water. By now a second rescue boat, the gray catamaran, was on scene in the fairway. It took two strong guys on the finger, and one pushing up from inside the water, to drag up and roll the fellow up onto the finger, where he lay immobile and exhausted for several minutes, till we could get him up and help him into his boat. Luckily, he was cold, wet, very tired, but otherwise, OK. And able to change out of his soaking wet clothes. >> >>It had taken four sailors, two gals,and two guys, all at the right time and the right place, and four very professional rescuers who were close by to make the save. If anything had been different, if he'd been offshore, or if we hadn't been there being observant, and keeping our heads, the outcome would have been very bad, the kind we too often read about in the water "Body of boater found floating in the water". It happened on my dock several years before. It happened to a popular sail maker, Rui of "Rooster Sails", in the Bay Area last June .It was sobering for me, for my dock mate. And it leads me to wonder how adequate the rescue gear is on these boats. They have no full supporting rescue harness aboard, just a floatation belt, they don't have a crane, davit, or an electric winch, or even multiple pulleys to lift a very heavy, very incapacitated person out of the water. In fact, they have less rescue gear, a boom and tackle with a life sling horse shoe buoy, than the average well equipped sailboat has! And I shudder to think what would have happened if these two boats had been well off shore when this happened, as was the case two days before on Tuesday evening of this week when they both took off speeding out of the Marina, for Playa del Rey to attend to a big cabin cruiser that had lost power. It turned out that they eventually left that boat drifting as it was far enough off shore to allow time for a tow boat to retrieve it without further assistance. And what if this fellow was MOB in rough water? How long would it have taken them to get him out, if it was going to take two boats and four strong crewmen to do it, could it have been done quickly enough to save him? I wonder. >>Gerald Sobel, G Basin. >

imho, there is no way I could get back on Papoose if I fell overboard without help. I often swim in my marina and was shocked to hear that some people cannot get back on a dock from the water. My next thought was that I was very lucky that I can as the first time I dove in the water, I didn't think twice about getting back on dock. Compared to the dock, the deck of Papoose is so much higher I don't even know where I would start. I have a life sling and the connecting rope hangs over the stern like I am a sloppy skipper. At least I figure I can get a line if I fall over, maybe even the life sling. We were grounded once and one of my crew jumped in to swim a tow line to another boat. He didn't think twice about getting back aboard either. I have a couple of blocks with a line and a loop but as I recall, we just pulled him back on board. Calm waters always make this stuff easy. Being overweight and out of shape would make it more difficult. When single handing Papoose, I am always tied in unless I am in the cockpit. The jack line terminates at the aft end of the cabin as I figure I don'w want to be trailing the boat should I actually fall in. Never tried it and hope I never do. But back to the marina. If I was ever too worn out to get back on the dock, I would just swim around until I found a boat with a swim platform or boarding ladder on the stern. An option we should all think of, assuming we can all swim. Allen On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 2:56 PM, roline <ro… [at] charter.net> wrote: > ** > > > One of my additions to my Cal 9.2 was a stainless steel stern boarding > ladder. I tried to use the emergency Plastimo rope ladder but found that > it was not adequate when I was tired. I single hand and also enjoy > swimming in the coves, thus necessity.. > If you land in the drink, try to get back on board alone, don't assume > you can do it, try it, then try it one handed, try it after swimming for > 1/2 hr etc..... > > > On 4/16/2012 10:13 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: > > > > On 4/16/2012 4:55 AM, Gerald Sobel wrote: > > > I am reading about the horrific mishap this week end involving a 38' > racer that floundered onto the Farlone Rocks while trying to rescue four of > its crew members that washed over board when the boat was smacked and > rolled on its side by a boarding wave. Three were fortunate to be rescued > by helocpter and a recue diver which were winched up in a litter. One crew > was deceased, and the four remaining crew are still missing a presumed lost > after an additional day of searching, which was called off minutes ago, > to-nite. Survival expectancy in the icy Pacific waters is less than an > hour, so we have five fatalities. > > > I had just read the *Practical Sailor* article on the deaths in the last > Chicago-Mackinac race and then heard news reports about the latest losses. > As with Jerry's observations about an event in his marina, below, the > lesson is that things are always going to be worse than we expect when an > emergency arises. We tend to dismiss safety issues by adopting illusions > of control and rescue. Cold, harsh weather, injuries, mistakes, and > equipment failures all conspire to make our plans illusory. By > coincidence, I'd had my every-two-years CPR training this weekend, so > safety issues were on my mind. We all need to pay attention. > > Chris Campbell > > > But one need not be crewing in a racing yacht going balls to the wall in > treacherous seas to become a man overboard (M.O.B.) fatality. It can happen > right here in Marina del Rey, as it very nearly did at my dock Thursday > evening at sunset. I'd come down to my boat, which I rarely do on weekdays, > to trouble shoot my recently cranky starting out board and pick up some > scrubbing supplies to prep/ for some painting I was planning at a job site. > As an afterthought, I went down the ramp of an adjacent dock, closer to > where I was parked, to refill a water spray bottle from a dock box tap, and > as I did, squeezed passed a typically portly retired stay aboard boater > who I'd waved to a minute before while was in the midst of cooking dinner > from the cockpit of his sailboat, using one of those popular rail mounted > grills. He'd run out of fuel, and was lifting a spare propane bottle out of > his dock box. I had just gotten back to my van , was putting stuff away > when I heard a dull 'thunk' sound followed by the faint sound of a splash. > I figured I probably should investigate, pushing the possibility of a worse > case scenario that popped in my head, when I heard two woman, who were > strolling past at just that moment call out "Are You O.K.?" > ...nothing...and again "Are you o.k.? They walked further along the railing > for a better view and leaned over again. "Are YOU O.K.?!". Finally, a > response, a barely audible man's voice. The Gals turned around, saw me, and > said "There's a guy in the water" Just what I was afraid of, The fellow had > lost his balance getting back in his boat; I was now already having visions > of having to jump in to save him. I rushed over to the gate, feeling in my > pocket for my keys as I went, opened the gate, sped down the ramp and onto > the dock finger hidden by his high freeboard Erricson 27. > The rather portly fellow, perhaps between 260 to 290 lbs? was indeed in > the drink, his head just above the water, and he was desperately clutching > his rear mooring line with a badly bleeding hand. My sailing buddy Eric was > already there, having already gotten to the gate before me, with the two > little gals on the narrow dock finger, leaning over the water. Eric said, > "I can't pull you out, I've got a torn rotor cuff in one shoulder, and a > broken bone spur in my other. The two middle age women were barely five > feet tall, and I have a bad back. I said, "I'll run and get my boarding > ladder, shall I call for help from the Harbor Patrol?"...(big mistake..'de > Nile', 'de Nile'). The fellow said. "Oh, please don't do that!" I could > smell a wiff of alcohol on his breath, and he was very embarrassed at what > had just happened, as I'm sure I or anyone else would be at that moment. > So, against my better judgement, I ran around the ramps and sea wall, over > to my dock, down the dock to my boat which was closer to the end of the > dock, unlocked my hatch, dove under floating cushions and PFD's, dragging > out my boarding ladder, grabbed a paddle (I'd seen a low freeboard hull of > a high tech racing dinghy squeezed behind a partially deflated dinghy on > the other side of his boat, thinking that might be an option to scoop him > up if the ladder failed, and maybe I could paddle it out and around his > boat). I dashed down my dock, up the ramp, to the next dock, down the ramp > and onto the dock, to the first finger. Luckily, his boat is next to the > seawall, otherwise, he'd have been out of luck, and no one would have known > he'd fallen in. > > I set up the ladder on the dock, tied it with the lose end of his mooring > line, and I could tell right away, it wasn't going to work. The fellow was > very weak, he was very heavy, and my ladder was designed to hook over a > gunwale, and not capable of supporting his weight on the ends of it's loops > against the dock surface. Neither was he strong enough to hang onto the > dock. As he tried to step onto the lowest rungs, his legs floated out under > the dock, leaving him on his back rather than vertical. But at least he had > something to secure him in place where he could rest. The little racer > dingy was all tied up, jammed under the inflatable and wouldn't be easy to > free, but an option if all else failed. I then dashed back around to my > boat, jumped inside, got on channel 16 and called in M.O.B., directing the > operator to the location, trying to keep my cool, to the right basin, and > the right fairway, between my dock and the adjacent one. The Harbor Patrol > said they'd be right over. I ran back around to the M.O.B., and in five > minutes I could hear the thundering sound of a big diesel idling out in the > basin, but, without seeing anything, not entering our fairway. I called for > one of the little gals to run out to the end of the dock and guide the > rescue boat in; by now it was pretty dark. > > The Baywatch Rescue Boat pulled into the fairway, and first crew, and > then, the two crew couldn't pull him up, couldn't get a floatation belt > around him from the stern of their boat till one, wearing a half wetsuit, > hopped in the water. By now a second rescue boat, the gray catamaran, was > on scene in the fairway. It took two strong guys on the finger, and one > pushing up from inside the water, to drag up and roll the fellow up onto > the finger, where he lay immobile and exhausted for several minutes, till > we could get him up and help him into his boat. Luckily, he was cold, wet, > very tired, but otherwise, OK. And able to change out of his soaking wet > clothes. > > It had taken four sailors, two gals,and two guys, all at the right time > and the right place, and four very professional rescuers who were close by > to make the save. If anything had been different, if he'd been offshore, or > if we hadn't been there being observant, and keeping our heads, the outcome > would have been very bad, the kind we too often read about in the water > "Body of boater found floating in the water". It happened on my dock > several years before. It happened to a popular sail maker, Rui of "Rooster > Sails", in the Bay Area last June .It was sobering for me, for my dock > mate. And it leads me to wonder how adequate the rescue gear is on these > boats. They have no full supporting rescue harness aboard, just a > floatation belt, they don't have a crane, davit, or an electric winch, or > even multiple pulleys to lift a very heavy, very incapacitated person out > of the water. In fact, they have less rescue gear, a boom and tackle with a > life sling horse shoe buoy, than the average well equipped sailboat has! > And I shudder to think what would have happened if these two boats had been > well off shore when this happened, as was the case two days before on > Tuesday evening of this week when they both took off speeding out of the > Marina, for Playa del Rey to attend to a big cabin cruiser that had lost > power. It turned out that they eventually left that boat drifting as it was > far enough off shore to allow time for a tow boat to retrieve it without > further assistance. And what if this fellow was MOB in rough water? How > long would it have taken them to get him out, if it was going to take two > boats and four strong crewmen to do it, could it have been done quickly > enough to save him? I wonder. > Gerald Sobel, G Basin. > > > >

On 4/17/2012 12:08 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > imho, there is no way I could get back on Papoose if I fell overboard > without help. I often swim in my marina and was shocked to hear that > some people cannot get back on a dock from the water. My next thought > was that I was very lucky that I can as the first time I dove in the > water, I didn't think twice about getting back on dock. Compared to > the dock, the deck of Papoose is so much higher I don't even know > where I would start. > A number of years ago an ex-Coast Guard survival guy conducted safety training for our schooner crew. It was in an indoor pool (warm, safe). He brought an inflatable dinghy that he inflated and placed in the pool. Then he had us try to climb into this little inflatable. Whoa!! Impossible!! There was nothing to grab onto to pull yourself in. It would have been easy if there had been grab lines of some kid within reach, or maybe an outboard motor with a cavitation plate. But with just this low-freeboard boat, it was good for nothing. I know I could not get back onto my Cal 20 without assistance. It's hard enough using a boarding ladder--the problem is having a handhold above me when climbing. I have thought about making some sort of rope ladder that could be pulled overboard when single-handing. Maybe I need to think harder about that. Chris Campbell > >

I have considered getting one of these http://www.rei.com/product/474077/black-diamond-5-step-etrier But I almost never sail alone so have not done it. Just clip myself in when I do. Allen On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:54 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > ** > > > ** On 4/17/2012 12:08 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > > > imho, there is no way I could get back on Papoose if I fell overboard > without help. I often swim in my marina and was shocked to hear that some > people cannot get back on a dock from the water. My next thought was that > I was very lucky that I can as the first time I dove in the water, I didn't > think twice about getting back on dock. Compared to the dock, the deck of > Papoose is so much higher I don't even know where I would start. > > > A number of years ago an ex-Coast Guard survival guy conducted safety > training for our schooner crew. It was in an indoor pool (warm, safe). He > brought an inflatable dinghy that he inflated and placed in the pool. Then > he had us try to climb into this little inflatable. Whoa!! Impossible!! > There was nothing to grab onto to pull yourself in. It would have been > easy if there had been grab lines of some kid within reach, or maybe an > outboard motor with a cavitation plate. But with just this low-freeboard > boat, it was good for nothing. > > I know I could not get back onto my Cal 20 without assistance. It's hard > enough using a boarding ladder--the problem is having a handhold above me > when climbing. I have thought about making some sort of rope ladder that > could be pulled overboard when single-handing. Maybe I need to think > harder about that. > > Chris Campbell > > > > > >

There are very few good solutions.. other than do not leave the boat, unless it is tied to the dock. I tell my crew that if they leave the boat, they are dead. If I can save them, it will be an unexpected bonus. Picture using any solution, while the boat is doing 4-6+ knots, pitching in seas, in 40-50 degree water... after just a moment, all energy is completely gone from the immersed person, so you are lifting a 200-300 pound rag doll covered with slimy loose gear, over a 30" wire, 4 feet below you.... *´¨) ¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·**¨) (¸.·´ (¸.·' ( ..........-_/) [cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley

I posted an article in S.F. Gate about a relay team of six swimmers, one woman and four guys, one in his sixties, that swam from under the golden gate bridge to the Farallon buoy in 14 hours. They wore speedos and swim caps to keep them warm. Shoulda used bear grease! Ok, polar bear grease! The water was 49 to 52 degrees. Ouch! My nephew Jon did the Alcatraz swim last Spring. His fiance Becka did it too, but she wore a half wet suit, and took first place. Wooo Hoo! Doesn't hurt that they were in shape. If you're not, it can be really hard to climb a boarding ladder, even, especially after you've been swimming around for 45 minutes. I found that out at Catalina. Since I was by myself at Howlands after everyone else had left, I just HAD to make it, so I did. There was something in Latitude 38 about using the Genoa, lowering it into the water, climbing aboard it and getting winched up using the halyard and sheet. I guess you'd have to un-hank it from the forestay? Not sure of the exact technique, but it would be relatively quick and give you mechanical advantage. Another technique published in Lat. 38 is using a big fish net for scooping big fish out of the water. Another "Lee Helm" bright idea. When I recovered my first MOB during a race I had my boat heeled over steeply hove-to in strong winds, putting the lee deck nearly awash. We had the MOB on board in just seconds, going from first to second place in the race. Of course, me CAl 24 has really low freeboard compared to most modern boats. Jerry From: "ti… [at] ch2m.com" <ti… [at] ch2m.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 4:16 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Farlonne Islands MOB disaster, near MOB drowning at our docks Thursday. There are very few good solutions.. other than do not leave the boat, unless it is tied to the dock. I tell my crew that if they leave the boat, they are dead. If I can save them, it will be an unexpected bonus. Picture using any solution, while the boat is doing 4-6+ knots, pitching in seas, in 40-50 degree water… after just a moment, all energy is completely gone from the immersed person, so you are lifting a 200-300 pound rag doll covered with slimy loose gear, over a 30” wire, 4 feet below you…. *´¨) ¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·**¨) (¸.·´ (¸.·' ( ......….-_/) Timm Lessley

I am told that most people who fall overboard actually die from a heart attack from the shock of thinking they are going to die because someone has told them the same advice Tim gives all his crew. That is what got a local sail maker a bit back. The good part of the advice is to stay on the boat. Planting the fear of God in them, maybe not so good. Allen On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:16 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > ** > > > There are very few good solutions.. other than do not leave the boat, > unless it is tied to the dock.**** > > ** ** > > I tell my crew that if they leave the boat, they are dead. If I can save > them, it will be an unexpected bonus.**** > > ** ** > > Picture using any solution, while the boat is doing 4-6+ knots, pitching > in seas, in 40-50 degree water… **** > > ** ** > > after just a moment, all energy is completely gone from the immersed > person, **** > > ** ** > > so you are lifting a 200-300 pound rag doll covered with slimy loose gear, > over a 30” wire, 4 feet below you….**** > > ** ** > > *´¨) > ¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·**¨) > (¸.·´ (¸.·' ( ......….-*_/)** * **** > > *[image: cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70]* > > *Timm Lessley* > > ** ** > > >

It is too flexable and will bend under the boat when you try to climb up it. The plastimo was worthless on the Cal. You have to use upper body strength to pull your self up and you can not rely on that when you have been in cold water. Try it and know if it works. On 4/17/2012 6:50 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > I have considered getting one of these > > http://www.rei.com/product/474077/black-diamond-5-step-etrier > > But I almost never sail alone so have not done it. Just clip myself > in when I do. > > Allen > > > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:54 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org > <mailto:cc… [at] lsnm.org>> wrote: > > On 4/17/2012 12:08 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: >> >> imho, there is no way I could get back on Papoose if I fell >> overboard without help. I often swim in my marina and was >> shocked to hear that some people cannot get back on a dock from >> the water. My next thought was that I was very lucky that I can >> as the first time I dove in the water, I didn't think twice about >> getting back on dock. Compared to the dock, the deck of Papoose >> is so much higher I don't even know where I would start. >> > > A number of years ago an ex-Coast Guard survival guy conducted > safety training for our schooner crew. It was in an indoor pool > (warm, safe). He brought an inflatable dinghy that he inflated > and placed in the pool. Then he had us try to climb into this > little inflatable. Whoa!! Impossible!! There was nothing to grab > onto to pull yourself in. It would have been easy if there had > been grab lines of some kid within reach, or maybe an outboard > motor with a cavitation plate. But with just this low-freeboard > boat, it was good for nothing. > > I know I could not get back onto my Cal 20 without assistance. > It's hard enough using a boarding ladder--the problem is having a > handhold above me when climbing. I have thought about making some > sort of rope ladder that could be pulled overboard when > single-handing. Maybe I need to think harder about that. > > Chris Campbell >> >> > > >

I remember rounding the Farralones once about 20 years ago and marveling at the size and power of the breakers as they hit the lee shore. I think it sticks in my memory because the boat I was on had an engine that was not functioning that day. I distinctly remember thinking about how ugly it could be if something broke right about then. I think it can be deceptive, looking toward shore, and appreciating just where the danger begins. That said, I would not want to second guess those guys. It just may have been one of those freak waves. Terry On Apr 17, 2012, at 9:54 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: > On 4/17/2012 12:08 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > >> >> imho, there is no way I could get back on Papoose if I fell overboard without help. I often swim in my marina and was shocked to hear that some people cannot get back on a dock from the water. My next thought was that I was very lucky that I can as the first time I dove in the water, I didn't think twice about getting back on dock. Compared to the dock, the deck of Papoose is so much higher I don't even know where I would start. >> > > A number of years ago an ex-Coast Guard survival guy conducted safety training for our schooner crew. It was in an indoor pool (warm, safe). He brought an inflatable dinghy that he inflated and placed in the pool. Then he had us try to climb into this little inflatable. Whoa!! Impossible!! There was nothing to grab onto to pull yourself in. It would have been easy if there had been grab lines of some kid within reach, or maybe an outboard motor with a cavitation plate. But with just this low-freeboard boat, it was good for nothing. > > I know I could not get back onto my Cal 20 without assistance. It's hard enough using a boarding ladder--the problem is having a handhold above me when climbing. I have thought about making some sort of rope ladder that could be pulled overboard when single-handing. Maybe I need to think harder about that. > > Chris Campbell >> > > >

Jerry, I’ve had the stern engine cut-out on the CAL 25 be a handy item a couple times in MOB situations. Thinking about everything that could go wrong on a boat can really make my head spin. I guess one could say that about a lot of things. Take Care Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:43 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] MOB recovery and Farallon swim I posted an article in S.F. Gate about a relay team of six swimmers, one woman and four guys, one in his sixties, that swam from under the golden gate bridge to the Farallon buoy in 14 hours. They wore speedos and swim caps to keep them warm. Shoulda used bear grease! Ok, polar bear grease! The water was 49 to 52 degrees. Ouch! My nephew Jon did the Alcatraz swim last Spring. His fiance Becka did it too, but she wore a half wet suit, and took first place. Wooo Hoo! Doesn't hurt that they were in shape. If you're not, it can be really hard to climb a boarding ladder, even, especially after you've been swimming around for 45 minutes. I found that out at Catalina. Since I was by myself at Howlands after everyone else had left, I just HAD to make it, so I did. There was something in Latitude 38 about using the Genoa, lowering it into the water, climbing aboard it and getting winched up using the halyard and sheet. I guess you'd have to un-hank it from the forestay? Not sure of the exact technique, but it would be relatively quick and give you mechanical advantage. Another technique published in Lat. 38 is using a big fish net for scooping big fish out of the water. Another "Lee Helm" bright idea. When I recovered my first MOB during a race I had my boat heeled over steeply hove-to in strong winds, putting the lee deck nearly awash. We had the MOB on board in just seconds, going from first to second place in the race. Of course, me CAl 24 has really low freeboard compared to most modern boats. Jerry From: "ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com>" <ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com>> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 4:16 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Farlonne Islands MOB disaster, near MOB drowning at our docks Thursday. There are very few good solutions.. other than do not leave the boat, unless it is tied to the dock. I tell my crew that if they leave the boat, they are dead. If I can save them, it will be an unexpected bonus. Picture using any solution, while the boat is doing 4-6+ knots, pitching in seas, in 40-50 degree water… after just a moment, all energy is completely gone from the immersed person, so you are lifting a 200-300 pound rag doll covered with slimy loose gear, over a 30” wire, 4 feet below you…. *´¨) ¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·**¨) (¸.·´ (¸.·' ( ......….-_/) [cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70] Timm Lessley

Roline, my boarding ladder has little legs to hold the ladder away from the boat, but they're right where the side of the boat tucks under the hull, and they tend to collapse on their hinges, so don't work well, and these little leggs collapsed with the weight of the MOB. You really need something to help pull you up on the deck that you can grab onto, not just the ladder. The ladder did provide something for the MOB to rest and hang on to till help arrived. He was too inebriated to think clearly, or follow suggestions. I'm afraid drinking to excess and boating don't mix, even dockside. I find its hard enough for a lot of people to think fast and think clearly even when they're sober, on a sailboat, where each crewman can and should make a valuable contribution to the safety of all. Jerry From: roline <ro… [at] charter.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Farlonne Islands MOB disaster, near MOB drowning at our docks Thursday. It is too flexable and will bend under the boat when you try to climb up it. The plastimo was worthless on the Cal. You have to use upper body strength to pull your self up and you can not rely on that when you have been in cold water. Try it and know if it works. On 4/17/2012 6:50 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: >I have considered getting one of these >http://www.rei.com/product/474077/black-diamond-5-step-etrier > > >But I almost never sail alone so have not done it. Just clip myself in when I do. > > >Allen > > > >On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:54 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > > >>On 4/17/2012 12:08 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: >> >>>imho, there is no way I could get back on Papoose if I fell overboard without help. I often swim in my marina and was shocked to hear that some people cannot get back on a dock from the water. My next thought was that I was very lucky that I can as the first time I dove in the water, I didn't think twice about getting back on dock. Compared to the dock, the deck of Papoose is so much higher I don't even know where I would start. >> A number of years ago an ex-Coast Guard survival guy conducted safety training for our schooner crew. It was in an indoor pool (warm, safe). He brought an inflatable dinghy that he inflated and placed in the pool. Then he had us try to climb into this little inflatable. Whoa!! Impossible!! There was nothing to grab onto to pull yourself in. It would have been easy if there had been grab lines of some kid within reach, or maybe an outboard motor with a cavitation plate. But with just this low-freeboard boat, it was good for nothing. >> >>I know I could not get back onto my Cal 20 without assistance. It's hard enough using a boarding ladder--the problem is having a handhold above me when climbing. I have thought about making some sort of rope ladder that could be pulled overboard when single-handing. Maybe I need to think harder about that. >> >>Chris Campbell >> >> >>> >> >

Allen, sadly that may be true that the stress of falling off the boat causes panic that induces a heart attack, or..., it may be the case that sailors in the race having a heart attack fall overboard, or something in between? I know of several cases here in MdR that the MOB had a heart attacks and were dead upon recovery, some in their early forties. For me it would be an un-planned for swim, and I'd be striking out for the beach if I couldn't get back on board. Of course, the water is ten degrees warmer down here on average, and I'm a former competitive swimmer with a very different mind set. Of course, mid way to Catalina that might not work, and I know I'm horribly out of shaped compared to my youth. I guess we'll be finding out a lot more about what happened Saturday in the next few weeks, and hopefully we can all learn from it. Jerry From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Farlonne Islands MOB disaster, near MOB drowning at our docks Thursday. I am told that most people who fall overboard actually die from a heart attack from the shock of thinking they are going to die because someone has told them the same advice Tim gives all his crew. That is what got a local sail maker a bit back. The good part of the advice is to stay on the boat. Planting the fear of God in them, maybe not so good. Allen On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:16 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > >There are very few good solutions.. other than do not leave the boat, unless it is tied to the dock. > >I tell my crew that if they leave the boat, they are dead. If I can save them, it will be an unexpected bonus. > >Picture using any solution, while the boat is doing 4-6+ knots, pitching in seas, in 40-50 degree water… > >after just a moment, all energy is completely gone from the immersed person, > >so you are lifting a 200-300 pound rag doll covered with slimy loose gear, over a 30” wire, 4 feet below you…. > > *´¨) > ¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·**¨) >(¸.·´ (¸.·' ( ......….-_/) >Timm Lessley >

It swings down into the water far enough to get a foot on the bottom rung, http://www.angelfire.com/tn/santana525/cal92/tladder.jpg On 4/18/2012 1:05 AM, Gerald Sobel wrote: > Roline, my boarding ladder has little legs to hold the ladder away > from the boat, but they're right where the side of the boat tucks > under the hull, and they tend to collapse on their hinges, so don't > work well, and these little leggs collapsed with the weight of the > MOB. You really need something to help pull you up on the deck that > you can grab onto, not just the ladder. The ladder did provide > something for the MOB to rest and hang on to till help arrived. He was > too inebriated to think clearly, or follow suggestions. I'm afraid > drinking to excess and boating don't mix, even dockside. I find its > hard enough for a lot of people to think fast and think clearly even > when they're sober, on a sailboat, where each crewman can and should > make a valuable contribution to the safety of all. > Jerry > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* roline <ro… [at] charter.net> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Cc:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:43 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Farlonne Islands MOB disaster, near MOB > drowning at our docks Thursday. > > It is too flexable and will bend under the boat when you try to climb > up it. The plastimo was worthless on the Cal. You have to use upper > body strength to pull your self up and you can not rely on that when > you have been in cold water. Try it and know if it works. > > On 4/17/2012 6:50 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: >> I have considered getting one of these >> http://www.rei.com/product/474077/black-diamond-5-step-etrier >> >> But I almost never sail alone so have not done it. Just clip myself >> in when I do. >> >> Allen >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:54 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org >> <mailto:cc… [at] lsnm.org>> wrote: >> >> On 4/17/2012 12:08 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: >>> imho, there is no way I could get back on Papoose if I fell >>> overboard without help. I often swim in my marina and was >>> shocked to hear that some people cannot get back on a dock from >>> the water. My next thought was that I was very lucky that I can >>> as the first time I dove in the water, I didn't think twice >>> about getting back on dock. Compared to the dock, the deck of >>> Papoose is so much higher I don't even know where I would start. >> >> A number of years ago an ex-Coast Guard survival guy conducted >> safety training for our schooner crew. It was in an indoor pool >> (warm, safe). He brought an inflatable dinghy that he inflated >> and placed in the pool. Then he had us try to climb into this >> little inflatable. Whoa!! Impossible!! There was nothing to >> grab onto to pull yourself in. It would have been easy if there >> had been grab lines of some kid within reach, or maybe an >> outboard motor with a cavitation plate. But with just this >> low-freeboard boat, it was good for nothing. >> >> I know I could not get back onto my Cal 20 without assistance. >> It's hard enough using a boarding ladder--the problem is having a >> handhold above me when climbing. I have thought about making >> some sort of rope ladder that could be pulled overboard when >> single-handing. Maybe I need to think harder about that. >> >> Chris Campbell >>> >> >> > > >

On 4/18/2012 1:18 AM, Gerald Sobel wrote: > Allen, sadly that may be true that the stress of falling off the boat > causes panic that induces a heart attack, or..., it may be the case > that sailors in the race having a heart attack fall overboard, or > something in between? I know of several cases here in MdR that the MOB > had a heart attacks and were dead upon recovery, some in their early > forties. For me it would be an un-planned for swim, and I'd be > striking out for the beach if I couldn't get back on board. Of course, > the water is ten degrees warmer down here on average, and I'm a former > competitive swimmer with a very different mind set. Funny you should mention that. Bill Schanen, publisher of /Sailing/ magazine, has a column in the latest issue about the odd reluctance of sailors to go swimming, especially when it's necessary to avoid a distress call. For example, when you've wrapped a line around the prop shaft. His view is that you go over and cut off or unwrap the line, you _don't_ get on the VHF and call for a tow. Or if you don't want to get wet, you sail the boat in. Bravo. When I was on /Brilliant/, we ran over a lobster pot buoy (Capt. driving, luckily). The line wrapped. We sailed in and the first mate was nominated for the dive. By the way, Bill Schanen's columns are usually very perceptive and wise. They're the first place I turn in his magazine, then I flip to Bob Perry's boat reviews. The other day at CPR training one of the captains of the schoolship mentioned the celebrated story of the 19th century fisherman who was separated from his ship in the fog and rowed his dory many miles with hands frozen to the oars. Then we got into famous tales of long distance swims or extended exposure when people did not, inexplicably, die of exposure (hypothermia). But in the Great Lakes, where you can often see shore, most public instruction says "do not leave your boat, even if it's swamped; don't try to swim for shore." This is because many people overestimate their fitness, underestimate the distance and endurance required, and drown while swimming. It's kind of like not wearing seat belts because you think it's safer to be "thrown free" in an accident (what a weird illusion). Chris Campbell > Of course, mid way to Catalina that might not work, and I know I'm > horribly out of shaped compared to my youth. > > I guess we'll be finding out a lot more about what happened Saturday > in the next few weeks, and hopefully we can all learn from it. > Jerry > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:27 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Farlonne Islands MOB disaster, near MOB > drowning at our docks Thursday. > > I am told that most people who fall overboard actually die from a > heart attack from the shock of thinking they are going to die because > someone has told them the same advice Tim gives all his crew. That is > what got a local sail maker a bit back. The good part of the advice > is to stay on the boat. Planting the fear of God in them, maybe not > so good. > > Allen > > > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:16 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com > <mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com>> wrote: > > There are very few good solutions.. other than do not leave the > boat, unless it is tied to the dock. > I tell my crew that if they leave the boat, they are dead. If I > can save them, it will be an unexpected bonus. > Picture using any solution, while the boat is doing 4-6+ knots, > pitching in seas, in 40-50 degree water… > after just a moment, all energy is completely gone from the > immersed person, > so you are lifting a 200-300 pound rag doll covered with slimy > loose gear, over a 30” wire, 4 feet below you…. > *´¨) > ¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·**¨) > (¸.·´ (¸.·' ( ......….-*/_/)/** * > *cid:image005.png@01CBF93B.85770E70* > *Timm Lessley* > > > >

On 4/17/2012 8:27 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > I am told that most people who fall overboard actually die from a > heart attack from the shock of thinking they are going to die because > someone has told them the same advice Tim gives all his crew. That is > what got a local sail maker a bit back. The good part of the advice > is to stay on the boat. Planting the fear of God in them, maybe not > so good. > My conversation the other day about unexplained survival in cold water turned to a guy who had made a swim of 12 miles or some such astonishing distance in cold water. He didn't know that he was supposed to die and he had confidence that if he swam, he'd make it, and he did. Of course, psychology does not always trump physiology, but it can have surprising effects. There's a crewman from a Great Lakes freighter that sank in late November who gives talks about his survival. The vessel broke in half. He reached a life raft in boxer shorts and his pea coat. He was the only survivor. He was not rescued for 40 hours. Here's a summary (scroll down to top of 2d page). > http://www.ewcupdate.com/userfiles/survivalsystemsinc_com/file/SSUSA%20Hypothermia.pdf I've heard him speak. He doesn't know why he survived. Nobody else can explain it either. By the way, the vessel was built in the town where I grew up. The boat was old (1906) and smallish by current standards (~600 ft.--the Wkipedia article cites two different lengths). You can read about the boat and the wreck here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Daniel_J._Morrell Chris Campbell

On 4/18/2012 1:05 AM, Gerald Sobel wrote: > You really need something to help pull you up on the deck that you > can grab onto, not just the ladder. This is hard to understand until you have tried it. On our schooner we have a "traditional" jacobs ladder--rope, wood steps. Women in particular found it difficult to use because some of them lacked upper body strength to pull up, and the bottom tended to tuck under the hull, etc. We're talking difficult _when swimming at dockside for recreation_. We made a better traditional-style ladder that helps some. > The ladder did provide something for the MOB to rest and hang on to > till help arrived. He was too inebriated to think clearly, or follow > suggestions. I'm afraid drinking to excess and boating don't mix, even > dockside. I find its hard enough for a lot of people to think fast and > think clearly even when they're sober, on a sailboat, where each > crewman can and should make a valuable contribution to the safety of all. These last two sentences should be printed and displayed on all recreational vessels. Very well stated. Sometimes we forget about mutual obligations. Chris Campbell

My former wife was intrerested in what shoreside fishermen were doing in NY Slough. She was steering. I was below making ham sandwiches. We took the bottom. I put down my Dos Equis beer and jumped into the water to clear the 3/8 line wrapped around the prop in a kedgeing off exercise. At some point I was swimming for all I had to regain contact with Jupiter my Hinckley Pilot. I made it and slithered back on board after cutting the fouled rode off the prop. Don't try this at home kiddies. It was close and I was not roped in. I could have made it to shore most likely but who can really say! Some are just lucky! My Best, Mike Farrell From: Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] MOB and heartattack On 4/18/2012 1:18 AM, Gerald Sobel wrote: Allen, sadly that may be true that the stress of falling off the boat causes panic that induces a heart attack, or..., it may be the case that sailors in the race having a heart attack fall overboard, or something in between? I know of several cases here in MdR that the MOB had a heart attacks and were dead upon recovery, some in their early forties. For me it would be an un-planned for swim, and I'd be striking out for the beach if I couldn't get back on board. Of course, the water is ten degrees warmer down here on average, and I'm a former competitive swimmer with a very different mind set. Funny you should mention that. Bill Schanen, publisher of Sailing magazine, has a column in the latest issue about the odd reluctance of sailors to go swimming, especially when it's necessary to avoid a distress call. For example, when you've wrapped a line around the prop shaft. His view is that you go over and cut off or unwrap the line, you don't get on the VHF and call for a tow. Or if you don't want to get wet, you sail the boat in. Bravo. When I was on Brilliant, we ran over a lobster pot buoy (Capt. driving, luckily). The line wrapped. We sailed in and the first mate was nominated for the dive. By the way, Bill Schanen's columns are usually very perceptive and wise. They're the first place I turn in his magazine, then I flip to Bob Perry's boat reviews. The other day at CPR training one of the captains of the schoolship mentioned the celebrated story of the 19th century fisherman who was separated from his ship in the fog and rowed his dory many miles with hands frozen to the oars. Then we got into famous tales of long distance swims or extended exposure when people did not, inexplicably, die of exposure (hypothermia). But in the Great Lakes, where you can often see shore, most public instruction says "do not leave your boat, even if it's swamped; don't try to swim for shore." This is because many people overestimate their fitness, underestimate the distance and endurance required, and drown while swimming. It's kind of like not wearing seat belts because you think it's safer to be "thrown free" in an accident (what a weird illusion). Chris Campbell Of course, mid way to Catalina that might not work, and I know I'm horribly out of shaped compared to my youth. > > >I guess we'll be finding out a lot more about what happened Saturday in the next few weeks, and hopefully we can all learn from it. > >Jerry > > > > >________________________________ >From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:27 PM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Farlonne Islands MOB disaster, near MOB drowning at our docks Thursday. > > > >I am told that most people who fall overboard actually die from a heart attack from the shock of thinking they are going to die because someone has told them the same advice Tim gives all his crew. That is what got a local sail maker a bit back. The good part of the advice is to stay on the boat. Planting the fear of God in them, maybe not so good. > >Allen > > > > >On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:16 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > > >>There are very few good solutions.. other than do not leave the boat, unless it is tied to the dock. >> >>I tell my crew that if they leave the boat, they are dead. If I can save them, it will be an unexpected bonus. >> >>Picture using any solution, while the boat is doing 4-6+ knots, pitching in seas, in 40-50 degree water… >> >>after just a moment, all energy is completely gone from the immersed person, >> >>so you are lifting a 200-300 pound rag doll covered with slimy loose gear, over a 30” wire, 4 feet below you…. >> >> *´¨) >> ¸.· ´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·**¨) >>(¸.·´ (¸.·' ( ......….-_/) >>Timm Lessley >> > > >

Allen, I concur. My Best, Mike ps. I tell my crew not to go in, wet crew are very hard to get back onto the deck! From: Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Farlonne Islands MOB disaster, near MOB drowning at our docks Thursday. On 4/17/2012 8:27 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: >I am told that most people who fall overboard actually die from a heart attack from the shock of thinking they are going to die because someone has told them the same advice Tim gives all his crew. That is what got a local sail maker a bit back. The good part of the advice is to stay on the boat. Planting the fear of God in them, maybe not so good. > My conversation the other day about unexplained survival in cold water turned to a guy who had made a swim of 12 miles or some such astonishing distance in cold water. He didn't know that he was supposed to die and he had confidence that if he swam, he'd make it, and he did. Of course, psychology does not always trump physiology, but it can have surprising effects. There's a crewman from a Great Lakes freighter that sank in late November who gives talks about his survival. The vessel broke in half. He reached a life raft in boxer shorts and his pea coat. He was the only survivor. He was not rescued for 40 hours. Here's a summary (scroll down to top of 2d page). http://www.ewcupdate.com/userfiles/survivalsystemsinc_com/file/SSUSA%20Hypothermia.pdf I've heard him speak. He doesn't know why he survived. Nobody else can explain it either. By the way, the vessel was built in the town where I grew up. The boat was old (1906) and smallish by current standards (~600 ft.--the Wkipedia article cites two different lengths). You can read about the boat and the wreck here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Daniel_J._Morrell Chris Campbell

Hey guys. I've been trying to logon to Yahoo to search the group posts to find the answer to the question that has been asked numerous times. How to decode a HIN. But I can't for the life of me remember my password. Yahoo's "I've forgot my password" like is useless! So, unless I create a new account and rejoin the group I have no access to previous posts. So, sadly, I here is the question one more time. I have just bought a Cal T2 and the one thing that is not known about the boat is the hull/sail number. (ok, please forgive me here, I'm writing the HIN from memory....) CABT20711073 - Is my hull/sail number 71? and the production date 10/73? Thanks, Craig Johnson 1973 Cal T21979 Catalina 27 (for sale very cheap!!)1983 Ranger FUN 23 (also, for sale. also, quite the bargain)

Allen, Really?!! I thought most drowned men were found with their zippers down, which leads me to believe something else might have caused their heart attack. Also, I dispute your concept that my statements, or any other statements have anything to do with causing heart attacks, and or drowning. In fact to the contrary, I have one of the most relaxed "professional" crews in any fleet. Finally, I have no fear of God - nor does my crew. The Drowning Process. The drowning process is a continuum that begins when the victim's airway lies below the surface of the liquid, usually water, at which time the victim voluntarily holds his or her breath. Breathholding is usually followed by an involuntary period of laryngospasm secondary to the presence of liquid in the oropharynx or larynx.31<http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-31> During this period of breathholding and laryngospasm, the victim is unable to breathe gas. This results in oxygen being depleted and carbon dioxide not being eliminated. The victim then becomes hypercarbic, hypoxemic, and acidotic.27<http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-27> During this time the victim will frequently swallow large quantities of water.32<http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-32> The victim's respiratory movements may become very active, but there is no exchange of air because of the obstruction at the level of the larynx. As the victim's arterial oxygen tension drops further, laryngospasm abates, and the victim actively breathes liquid.33<http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-33> The amount of liquid inhaled varies considerably from victim to victim. Changes occur in the lungs, body fluids, blood-gas tensions, acid-base balance, and electrolyte concentrations, which are dependent on the composition and volume of the liquid aspirated and duration of submersion.27,33,34<http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-27> Surfactant washout, pulmonary hypertension, and shunting also contribute to development of hypoxemia.35,36<http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-35> Additional physiological derangements, such as the cold shock response, may occur in victims immersed in cold water. Water that is 10°C or colder has pronounced cardiovascular effects, including increased blood pressure and ectopic tachyarrhythmias. The response may also trigger a gasp reflex followed by hyperventilation, which may occur while the victim is underwater.37<http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-37>

The correct translation of your numbers is that you have a great sailing boat! (though a little odd looking) Reggie CAL 27 T/2 "Knot Ready" To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: cr… [at] hotmail.com Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:54:12 -0400 Subject: [Cal_Boats] HIN numbers Hey guys. I've been trying to logon to Yahoo to search the group posts to find the answer to the question that has been asked numerous times. How to decode a HIN. But I can't for the life of me remember my password. Yahoo's "I've forgot my password" like is useless! So, unless I create a new account and rejoin the group I have no access to previous posts. So, sadly, I here is the question one more time. I have just bought a Cal T2 and the one thing that is not known about the boat is the hull/sail number. (ok, please forgive me here, I'm writing the HIN from memory....) CABT20711073 - Is my hull/sail number 71? and the production date 10/73? Thanks, Craig Johnson 1973 Cal T2 1979 Catalina 27 (for sale very cheap!!) 1983 Ranger FUN 23 (also, for sale. also, quite the bargain)

I have water in my veins.....don't have to worry about drowning, only if you pull me out of the water. My crew are the walking dead....just like the Pirates of the Caribbean..lol From: "ti… [at] ch2m.com" <ti… [at] ch2m.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 4:26:01 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Farlonne Islands MOB disaster. Allen, Really?!! I thought most drowned men were found with their zippers down, which leads me to believe something else might have caused their heart attack. Also, I dispute your concept that my statements, or any other statements have anything to do with causing heart attacks, and or drowning. In fact to the contrary, I have one of the most relaxed “professional” crews in any fleet. Finally, I have no fear of God – nor does my crew. The Drowning Process. The drowning process is a continuum that begins when the victim’s airway lies below the surface of the liquid, usually water, at which time the victim voluntarily holds his or her breath. Breathholding is usually followed by an involuntary period of laryngospasm secondary to the presence of liquid in the oropharynx or larynx.31 During this period of breathholding and laryngospasm, the victim is unable to breathe gas. This results in oxygen being depleted and carbon dioxide not being eliminated. The victim then becomes hypercarbic, hypoxemic, and acidotic.27 During this time the victim will frequently swallow large quantities of water.32 The victim’s respiratory movements may become very active, but there is no exchange of air because of the obstruction at the level of the larynx. As the victim’s arterial oxygen tension drops further, laryngospasm abates, and the victim actively breathes liquid.33 The amount of liquid inhaled varies considerably from victim to victim. Changes occur in the lungs, body fluids, blood-gas tensions, acid-base balance, and electrolyte concentrations, which are dependent on the composition and volume of the liquid aspirated and duration of submersion.27,33,34 Surfactant washout, pulmonary hypertension, and shunting also contribute to development of hypoxemia.35,36 Additional physiological derangements, such as the cold shock response, may occur in victims immersed in cold water. Water that is 10°C or colder has pronounced cardiovascular effects, including increased blood pressure and ectopic tachyarrhythmias. The response may also trigger a gasp reflex followed by hyperventilation, which may occur while the victim is underwater.37

All, Here are some photos of Magic from last weekend. It was a lot of fun... 45 miles through Biscayne Bay. http://www.imagesbymarco.com/p425286977/h4bb3a2c#h4bb3a2c http://www.imagesbymarco.com/p425286977/h4bb3a2c#h1a1c9c Two boats dismasted. :( I heard, but not confirmed, that one was a Cal 29. The other was a Morgan 40 something that we passed. It's rig snapped off just above the spreaders. --Michael--

Liberty ships used to sink in cold water. They were made of Cold Rolled Steel (CRS). CRS gets very weak when it gets cold. I wonder what the ship in the Wiki article was made of. The article didn't say. I also wonder if by chance the survivor had a lot of fat to insulate his core. Allen On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 7:28 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > ** > > > ** On 4/17/2012 8:27 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > > > I am told that most people who fall overboard actually die from a heart > attack from the shock of thinking they are going to die because someone has > told them the same advice Tim gives all his crew. That is what got a local > sail maker a bit back. The good part of the advice is to stay on the boat. > Planting the fear of God in them, maybe not so good. > > > My conversation the other day about unexplained survival in cold water > turned to a guy who had made a swim of 12 miles or some such astonishing > distance in cold water. He didn't know that he was supposed to die and he > had confidence that if he swam, he'd make it, and he did. Of course, > psychology does not always trump physiology, but it can have surprising > effects. There's a crewman from a Great Lakes freighter that sank in late > November who gives talks about his survival. The vessel broke in half. He > reached a life raft in boxer shorts and his pea coat. He was the only > survivor. He was not rescued for 40 hours. Here's a summary (scroll down > to top of 2d page). > > > http://www.ewcupdate.com/userfiles/survivalsystemsinc_com/file/SSUSA%20Hypothermia.pdf > > > I've heard him speak. He doesn't know why he survived. Nobody else can > explain it either. > > By the way, the vessel was built in the town where I grew up. The boat was > old (1906) and smallish by current standards (~600 ft.--the Wkipedia > article cites two different lengths). You can read about the boat and the > wreck here: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Daniel_J._Morrell > > > Chris Campbell > > > > >

On 4/20/2012 9:55 AM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > Liberty ships used to sink in cold water. They were made of Cold > Rolled Steel (CRS). CRS gets very weak when it gets cold. I wonder > what the ship in the Wiki article was made of. The article didn't say. > The article mentioned that the steel may have been more brittle than appropriate in the Morrell. When you see huge steel vessels in calm circumstances, it's always hard to believe that any seas could make them come apart. Our most famous Great Lakes wreck, the Edmund Fitzgerald, was 711 feet. That's pretty big, especially when you're next to it in a little sailboat. Note that both sank in November. > > I also wonder if by chance the survivor had a lot of fat to insulate > his core. > No, actually. The Morrell sinking was in 1966 before Americans were near-universally overweight. Dennis Hale, the survivor, is fairly trim even in old age. His survival is one of those unexplained phenomena. Chris Campbell > >

I like the concept of don't fall off the boat. An additional point not mentioned that a friend of mine related to me. She was wearing an inflatable life vest. In a race going from port rail to starboard rail she overshot and went in the water. The interesting thing is that when her life vest inflated, she was at eye level to the bottom of the keel. It would be most difficult of blow up a non-auto inflatable life vest at that level and getting to the surface in full foul weather gear might also be a challenge. One reason I don't wear my inflatable but rather a standard life vest. The other is that it keeps me warm. Allen On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:26 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > ** > > > Allen, **** > > ** ** > > Really?!!**** > > ** ** > > I thought most drowned men were found with their zippers down, which leads > me to believe something else might have caused their heart attack.**** > > ** ** > > Also, I dispute your concept that my statements, or any other statements > have anything to do with causing heart attacks, and or drowning. In fact to > the contrary, I have one of the most relaxed “professional” crews in any > fleet.**** > > ** ** > > Finally, I have no fear of God – nor does my crew.**** > > ** ** > > *The Drowning Process.* > > The drowning process is a continuum that begins when the victim’s airway > lies below the surface of the liquid, usually water, at which time the > victim voluntarily holds his or her breath. Breathholding is usually > followed by an involuntary period of laryngospasm secondary to the presence > of liquid in the oropharynx or larynx.31<http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-31>During this period of breathholding and laryngospasm, the victim is unable > to breathe gas. This results in oxygen being depleted and carbon dioxide > not being eliminated. The victim then becomes hypercarbic, hypoxemic, and > acidotic.27 <http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-27>During this time the victim will frequently swallow large quantities of > water.32 <http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-32>The victim’s respiratory movements may become very active, but there is no > exchange of air because of the obstruction at the level of the larynx. As > the victim’s arterial oxygen tension drops further, laryngospasm abates, > and the victim actively breathes liquid.33<http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-33>The amount of liquid inhaled varies considerably from victim to victim. > Changes occur in the lungs, body fluids, blood-gas tensions, acid-base > balance, and electrolyte concentrations, which are dependent on the > composition and volume of the liquid aspirated and duration of submersion. > 27,33,34 <http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-27>Surfactant washout, pulmonary hypertension, and shunting also contribute to > development of hypoxemia.35,36<http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-35>Additional physiological derangements, such as the cold shock response, may > occur in victims immersed in cold water. Water that is 10°C or colder has > pronounced cardiovascular effects, including increased blood pressure and > ectopic tachyarrhythmias. The response may also trigger a gasp reflex > followed by hyperventilation, which may occur while the victim is > underwater.37<http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/20/2565.full#ref-37> > **** > > >

It's also good padding! I spoke to a PRO who went in and inflated his pfd. He said it made recovery onto the deck much harder than with a "life vest" I have an inflatable hybrid. I use my older pfd. I went into the water in a GGYC Friday nite race a couple of years ago. I kept ahold of the tiller until I realized the boat may take off and shake me off. My crew laughed as I said "please could you help me back aboard?" My foredeck did not believe I was even the the water. I have been overboard 4 times in 20 years at sea 3 times in SF Bay and once in Hawaiian waters---no time I have ever been detached from the boat. I have done a number of Farallons (correct spelling) races, Full crewed, DH and singlehanded. I remember looking at my DH buddy Jim and we both had the same issue on our minds. If something breaks now we are both fuc---. The island is a lee shore. We/I have kept 4 boatlengths from the rockpile but I have seen others go even closer. Sometimes you get the bear---sometimes he gets you. I will sail the singlehanded Farallons in a few weeks, I will keep the option of surviving to race another day. No pickle dish is worth your life. My Best Mike Farrell former owner of 8 Cal20's ,Now, Yellow Jack SC27 Hull58 sail #57313 From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Farlonne Islands MOB disaster. I like the concept of don't fall off the boat. An additional point not mentioned that a friend of mine related to me. She was wearing an inflatable life vest. In a race going from port rail to starboard rail she overshot and went in the water. The interesting thing is that when her life vest inflated, she was at eye level to the bottom of the keel. It would be most difficult of blow up a non-auto inflatable life vest at that level and getting to the surface in full foul weather gear might also be a challenge. One reason I don't wear my inflatable but rather a standard life vest. The other is that it keeps me warm. Allen On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:26 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: >Allen, > >Really?!! > >I thought most drowned men were found with their zippers down, which leads me to believe something else might have caused their heart attack. > >Also, I dispute your concept that my statements, or any other statements have anything to do with causing heart attacks, and or drowning. In fact to the contrary, I have one of the most relaxed “professional” crews in any fleet. > >Finally, I have no fear of God – nor does my crew. > >The Drowning Process. >The drowning process is a continuum that begins when the victim’s airway lies below the surface of the liquid, usually water, at which time the victim voluntarily holds his or her breath. Breathholding is usually followed by an involuntary period of laryngospasm secondary to the presence of liquid in the oropharynx or larynx.31 During this period of breathholding and laryngospasm, the victim is unable to breathe gas. This results in oxygen being depleted and carbon dioxide not being eliminated. The victim then becomes hypercarbic, hypoxemic, and acidotic.27 During this time the victim will frequently swallow large quantities of water.32 The victim’s respiratory movements may become very active, but there is no exchange of air because of the obstruction at the level of the larynx. As the victim’s arterial oxygen tension drops further, laryngospasm abates, and the victim actively breathes liquid.33 The amount of liquid inhaled varies considerably from victim to victim. Changes occur in the lungs, body fluids, blood-gas tensions, acid-base balance, and electrolyte concentrations, which are dependent on the composition and volume of the liquid aspirated and duration of submersion.27,33,34 Surfactant washout, pulmonary hypertension, and shunting also contribute to development of hypoxemia.35,36 Additional physiological derangements, such as the cold shock response, may occur in victims immersed in cold water. Water that is 10°C or colder has pronounced cardiovascular effects, including increased blood pressure and ectopic tachyarrhythmias. The response may also trigger a gasp reflex followed by hyperventilation, which may occur while the victim is underwater.37

I just attended a US Sailing Safety at Sea seminar last weekend, and was surprised at how much I already knew. We had some nice live demos, and nice presentations, from USCG and NOAA in particular. I have raced and done RC for years, have done 4 Chi-Mac races, and Allen said it best: Stay in the boat. Most of our racers and RC wear PFDs, most of the time, but always at night. PLBs seem to be gaining favor on the Great Lakes also. I just know that that water is cold, even in August, and the longer you are in it the lower your chance of rescue. Some of our friends marvel because my wife sails, and she swims like a rock. They ask that question, she replies that she stays in the boat. At any rate I would suggest that anyone who sails/races offshore think about attending one of the seminars. David Dobbs CAL29 411 From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Farlonne Islands MOB disaster. I like the concept of don't fall off the boat. An additional point not mentioned that a friend of mine related to me. She was wearing an inflatable life vest. In a race going from port rail to starboard rail she overshot and went in the water. The interesting thing is that when her life vest inflated, she was at eye level to the bottom of the keel. It would be most difficult of blow up a non-auto inflatable life vest at that level and getting to the surface in full foul weather gear might also be a challenge. One reason I don't wear my inflatable but rather a standard life vest. The other is that it keeps me warm. Allen On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:26 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > >Allen, > >Really?!! > >I thought most drowned men were found with their zippers down, which leads me to believe something else might have caused their heart attack. > >Also, I dispute your concept that my statements, or any other statements have anything to do with causing heart attacks, and or drowning. In fact to the contrary, I have one of the most relaxed “professional” crews in any fleet. > >Finally, I have no fear of God – nor does my crew. > >The Drowning Process. >The drowning process is a continuum that begins when the victim’s airway lies below the surface of the liquid, usually water, at which time the victim voluntarily holds his or her breath. Breathholding is usually followed by an involuntary period of laryngospasm secondary to the presence of liquid in the oropharynx or larynx.31 During this period of breathholding and laryngospasm, the victim is unable to breathe gas. This results in oxygen being depleted and carbon dioxide not being eliminated. The victim then becomes hypercarbic, hypoxemic, and acidotic.27 During this time the victim will frequently swallow large quantities of water.32 The victim’s respiratory movements may become very active, but there is no exchange of air because of the obstruction at the level of the larynx. As the victim’s arterial oxygen tension drops further, laryngospasm abates, and the victim actively breathes liquid.33 The amount of liquid inhaled varies considerably from victim to victim. Changes occur in the lungs, body fluids, blood-gas tensions, acid-base balance, and electrolyte concentrations, which are dependent on the composition and volume of the liquid aspirated and duration of submersion.27,33,34 Surfactant washout, pulmonary hypertension, and shunting also contribute to development of hypoxemia.35,36 Additional physiological derangements, such as the cold shock response, may occur in victims immersed in cold water. Water that is 10°C or colder has pronounced cardiovascular effects, including increased blood pressure and ectopic tachyarrhythmias. The response may also trigger a gasp reflex followed by hyperventilation, which may occur while the victim is underwater.37