Re: [Cal_Boats] Was Van Ness Engineering - Now "On Paper"

Yeah, via telephone that could've been "What? Did you tell me to go to Hell?" ;-) We had one developer who admitted he threw away all our correspondence apparently so he could deny ever seeing it. Fortunately we never had any issues with him. Paul In a message dated 5/10/2012 11:37:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hu… [at] bah.com writes: Paul, it’s one of the reasons I much prefer E-Mail to telephone. I can state myself carefully in written words and have evidence of what I wrote. Verbal discussions go to interpretation hell very quickly. Take Care Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:31 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Van Ness Engineering and my Gray Marine Engine saga Allen - If water is leaking out of the engine from your head gasket in can be also leaking INTO your cylinders as well which as you know can cause major damage. My first boss had a saying that "if it didn't happen on paper, it didn't happen" meaning that all conversations, details, specs whatever had to be on paper between us and our clients. If we had a conversation with a client we'd have to follow it up with a letters stating our understanding of the conversation (we were land planning consultants dealing with banks, lawyers and developers so you can understand the reasoning behind this). I'd get all your emails and correspondence together and threaten action with the BBB or if its not too late, cancel any checks or credit card payments if you can until you get all these issues solved. I'd be all over this guy like stink on a skunk if it were me. Good luck! Paul In a message dated 5/10/2012 10:40:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, al… [at] gmail.com writes: I replaced the head gasket on this engine myself and the head didn't leak. I hope he is right on the gasket swelling up but I don't know. I did resolve the carb issue. He remembered the color wrong. It was green. I know I have red engine enamel so when he said red, I assumed he was correct however I just reviewed one of the thousands of photographs I have of my boat and it was in fact green so I have to think that is OK even though the shaft seemed like the wrong diameter... I just got off the phone with him and he says they don't seal the transmission inspection plate in case it needs adjustment the first time the boat is run. It would have been nice if he told me that ahead of time. Like, how was I supposed to know that? By noticing the oil leak and phoning him? Seems like an odd way for it to come up. But that is his story. Mike, I fear all the things you are talking about while I hope he is telling me the truth. The sensors are a pain in the butt. The missing 1/8" flare to 1/8" NPT bushing looks like it will be hard to find. Allen On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 7:22 AM, mike farrell <_v… [at] yahoo.com_ (mailto:ve… [at] yahoo.com) > wrote: Allen, I have worked on many hundreds of engines in the time that I ran my German Car shop in Marin from 1970 to 1989. I have worked on Ford, Chrysler, Hudson and Jeep flatheads in my teenaged years. I have never seen an engine that has been properly assembled leak coolent from the head/headgasket/block joint. The possibilities are: head not properly torqued, head gasket failure/wrong gasket, cracked head, cracked block. Retorquing a head is normal after heating and cooling cycle but water leaking out is not normal! It's not good that the estimates were short for the work and shipping. Also the carb issue is a real red flag as are the missing sensors. At best a retorque of the head may work. Next best is a new head gasket. From there possibilities go downhill quickly. The block or head may need to be resurfaced if this was not properly done before by Van Ness. This brings up the question if this much is wrong that you can see now what may be wrong inside that is not visible. As always, My Best, Mike Farrell From: Allen Edwards <_a… [at] gmail.com_ (mailto:al… [at] gmail.com) > To: _C… [at] yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:35 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Van Ness Engineering and my Gray Marine Engine saga I am having some problems figuring out if I am getting the truth from the guy who just rebuilt my engine. It started with him saying it would take 2 days to ship the engine to him and having it take 2 weeks out and one week back. Best I can tell, it took him a week to put the order in. A week with him telling me it would be picked up that day (every day). California to New Jersey in 2 days seemed like a stretch so I allowed a week, not two. It didn't help that the bill was over the "worst case" number by about $800. New crank, new head, new starter, OK that is expensive so fair price for that stuff. He shipped it back COD and told me it would be $275 but it was $429. He said the engine weight was 320 pounds but the freight company said 465 pounds. Got the engine back and the two sensors I asked to make sure were there didn't make it back. The final "little thing" was that the carb that I made a special point saying was working so well I wasn't even sure I wanted him to touch it came was switched. He said it was not switched and I would find my red paint under his black but I found green, indicating he didn't even boil it out but just gave me another carb. All this makes me wonder who I am dealing with. But the real question comes with the fact that there is water dripping out the side of the engine between the head and the block. He claims that is normal and will go away if I re-torque the head. I never heard of such a thing and it didn't go away torquing it cold, or hot but I have been told by someone else that I need to torque it cold after being hot, something I can't do until Monday when I return from a trip. Should I believe him? Do I have a non-issue or a serious problem. I don't know. The final thing is that he says he ran it for 15 hours but I am wondering how it is that when I ran it for 15 minutes I had oil dripping out the cover plate on the trans. Maybe he ran it flat and I have it at the normal angle in the boat so I am going with the possibility that there is an innocent explanation. There is about 1/4 quart too much oil in it (he put the oil in) which someone told me is a sign the engine was run flat (horizontal). There is oil dripping from the bottom of the engine. I sure hope it is from this cover plate leak and not a rear main seal. Probable dripped down and under until it got to the back of the engine where it then dripped into the bilge. Has anyone dealt with Dave? Anyone think it is normal to have water drip from a newly re built engine with a new head? Allen

Well I did, but… (plausible deniability kicks in…) Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:43 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Was Van Ness Engineering - Now "On Paper" Yeah, via telephone that could've been "What? Did you tell me to go to Hell?" ;-) We had one developer who admitted he threw away all our correspondence apparently so he could deny ever seeing it. Fortunately we never had any issues with him. Paul In a message dated 5/10/2012 11:37:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hu… [at] bah.com<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com> writes: Paul, it’s one of the reasons I much prefer E-Mail to telephone. I can state myself carefully in written words and have evidence of what I wrote. Verbal discussions go to interpretation hell very quickly. Take Care Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]<mailto:[mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]> On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com<mailto:pw… [at] aol.com> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:31 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Van Ness Engineering and my Gray Marine Engine saga Allen - If water is leaking out of the engine from your head gasket in can be also leaking INTO your cylinders as well which as you know can cause major damage. My first boss had a saying that "if it didn't happen on paper, it didn't happen" meaning that all conversations, details, specs whatever had to be on paper between us and our clients. If we had a conversation with a client we'd have to follow it up with a letters stating our understanding of the conversation (we were land planning consultants dealing with banks, lawyers and developers so you can understand the reasoning behind this). I'd get all your emails and correspondence together and threaten action with the BBB or if its not too late, cancel any checks or credit card payments if you can until you get all these issues solved. I'd be all over this guy like stink on a skunk if it were me. Good luck! Paul In a message dated 5/10/2012 10:40:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com> writes: I replaced the head gasket on this engine myself and the head didn't leak. I hope he is right on the gasket swelling up but I don't know. I did resolve the carb issue. He remembered the color wrong. It was green. I know I have red engine enamel so when he said red, I assumed he was correct however I just reviewed one of the thousands of photographs I have of my boat and it was in fact green so I have to think that is OK even though the shaft seemed like the wrong diameter... I just got off the phone with him and he says they don't seal the transmission inspection plate in case it needs adjustment the first time the boat is run. It would have been nice if he told me that ahead of time. Like, how was I supposed to know that? By noticing the oil leak and phoning him? Seems like an odd way for it to come up. But that is his story. Mike, I fear all the things you are talking about while I hope he is telling me the truth. The sensors are a pain in the butt. The missing 1/8" flare to 1/8" NPT bushing looks like it will be hard to find. Allen On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 7:22 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:ve… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: Allen, I have worked on many hundreds of engines in the time that I ran my German Car shop in Marin from 1970 to 1989. I have worked on Ford, Chrysler, Hudson and Jeep flatheads in my teenaged years. I have never seen an engine that has been properly assembled leak coolent from the head/headgasket/block joint. The possibilities are: head not properly torqued, head gasket failure/wrong gasket, cracked head, cracked block. Retorquing a head is normal after heating and cooling cycle but water leaking out is not normal! It's not good that the estimates were short for the work and shipping. Also the carb issue is a real red flag as are the missing sensors. At best a retorque of the head may work. Next best is a new head gasket. From there possibilities go downhill quickly. The block or head may need to be resurfaced if this was not properly done before by Van Ness. This brings up the question if this much is wrong that you can see now what may be wrong inside that is not visible. As always, My Best, Mike Farrell From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com>> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:35 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Van Ness Engineering and my Gray Marine Engine saga I am having some problems figuring out if I am getting the truth from the guy who just rebuilt my engine. It started with him saying it would take 2 days to ship the engine to him and having it take 2 weeks out and one week back. Best I can tell, it took him a week to put the order in. A week with him telling me it would be picked up that day (every day). California to New Jersey in 2 days seemed like a stretch so I allowed a week, not two. It didn't help that the bill was over the "worst case" number by about $800. New crank, new head, new starter, OK that is expensive so fair price for that stuff. He shipped it back COD and told me it would be $275 but it was $429. He said the engine weight was 320 pounds but the freight company said 465 pounds. Got the engine back and the two sensors I asked to make sure were there didn't make it back. The final "little thing" was that the carb that I made a special point saying was working so well I wasn't even sure I wanted him to touch it came was switched. He said it was not switched and I would find my red paint under his black but I found green, indicating he didn't even boil it out but just gave me another carb. All this makes me wonder who I am dealing with. But the real question comes with the fact that there is water dripping out the side of the engine between the head and the block. He claims that is normal and will go away if I re-torque the head. I never heard of such a thing and it didn't go away torquing it cold, or hot but I have been told by someone else that I need to torque it cold after being hot, something I can't do until Monday when I return from a trip. Should I believe him? Do I have a non-issue or a serious problem. I don't know. The final thing is that he says he ran it for 15 hours but I am wondering how it is that when I ran it for 15 minutes I had oil dripping out the cover plate on the trans. Maybe he ran it flat and I have it at the normal angle in the boat so I am going with the possibility that there is an innocent explanation. There is about 1/4 quart too much oil in it (he put the oil in) which someone told me is a sign the engine was run flat (horizontal). There is oil dripping from the bottom of the engine. I sure hope it is from this cover plate leak and not a rear main seal. Probable dripped down and under until it got to the back of the engine where it then dripped into the bilge. Has anyone dealt with Dave? Anyone think it is normal to have water drip from a newly re built engine with a new head? Allen

Its really the only way to go even in this electronic age. When I worked for a consulting firm all minutes of meetings, phone calls, and random conversations were recorded and submitted to the client. DND/USAF for confirmation and sign off. Everything was transferred to hard copy and filed by date and correspondent with reference numbers that were logged into the computer and cross referenced. Kept three girls busy for 8 years. Hard to argue with a sheet of paper with your "signature" on it....:) /ch On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:42 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > ** > Yeah, via telephone that could've been "What? Did you tell me to go to > Hell?" ;-) > > We had one developer who admitted he threw away all our correspondence > apparently so he could deny ever seeing it. Fortunately we never had any > issues with him. > > Paul > > > > In a message dated 5/10/2012 11:37:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > hu… [at] bah.com writes: > > > > Paul, it’s one of the reasons I much prefer E-Mail to telephone. I can > state myself carefully in written words and have evidence of what I wrote. > Verbal discussions go to interpretation hell very quickly.**** > > **** > > Take Care**** > > Charlie**** > > **** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *pw… [at] aol.com > *Sent:* Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:31 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Van Ness Engineering and my Gray Marine Engine > saga**** > > **** > > > > > **** > > Allen - **** > > **** > > If water is leaking out of the engine from your head gasket in can be also > leaking INTO your cylinders as well which as you know can cause major > damage.**** > > **** > > My first boss had a saying that "if it didn't happen on paper, it didn't > happen" meaning that all conversations, details, specs whatever had to be > on paper between us and our clients. If we had a conversation with a > client we'd have to follow it up with a letters stating our understanding > of the conversation (we were land planning consultants dealing with banks, > lawyers and developers so you can understand the reasoning behind this). > I'd get all your emails and correspondence together and threaten action > with the BBB or if its not too late, cancel any checks or credit card > payments if you can until you get all these issues solved.**** > > **** > > I'd be all over this guy like stink on a skunk if it were me.**** > > **** > > Good luck!**** > > **** > > Paul**** > > **** > > In a message dated 5/10/2012 10:40:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > al… [at] gmail.com writes:**** > > **** > > I replaced the head gasket on this engine myself and the head didn't leak. > I hope he is right on the gasket swelling up but I don't know. **** > > **** > > I did resolve the carb issue. He remembered the color wrong. It was > green. I know I have red engine enamel so when he said red, I assumed he > was correct however I just reviewed one of the thousands of photographs I > have of my boat and it was in fact green so I have to think that is OK even > though the shaft seemed like the wrong diameter...**** > > **** > > I just got off the phone with him and he says they don't seal the > transmission inspection plate in case it needs adjustment the first time > the boat is run. It would have been nice if he told me that ahead of time. > Like, how was I supposed to know that? By noticing the oil leak and > phoning him? Seems like an odd way for it to come up. But that is his > story.**** > > **** > > Mike, I fear all the things you are talking about while I hope he is > telling me the truth.**** > > **** > > The sensors are a pain in the butt. The missing 1/8" flare to 1/8" NPT > bushing looks like it will be hard to find.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 7:22 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > Allen,**** > > I have worked on many hundreds of engines in the time that I ran my > German Car shop in Marin from 1970 to 1989. I have worked on > Ford, Chrysler, Hudson and Jeep flatheads in my teenaged years. I have > never seen an engine that has been properly assembled leak coolent from the > head/headgasket/block joint. The possibilities are: head not properly > torqued, head gasket failure/wrong gasket, cracked head, cracked > block. Retorquing a head is normal after heating and cooling cycle but > water leaking out is not normal! It's not good that the estimates were > short for the work and shipping. Also the carb issue is a real red flag as > are the missing sensors. At best a retorque of the head may work. Next > best is a new head gasket. From there possibilities go downhill quickly. > The block or head may need to be resurfaced if this was not properly done > before by Van Ness. This brings up the question if this much is wrong that > you can see now what may be wrong inside that is not visible.**** > > As always, My Best, Mike Farrell**** > > **** > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:35 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Van Ness Engineering and my Gray Marine Engine saga > **** > > **** > > > > I am having some problems figuring out if I am getting the truth from the > guy who just rebuilt my engine. It started with him saying it would take 2 > days to ship the engine to him and having it take 2 weeks out and one week > back. Best I can tell, it took him a week to put the order in. A week > with him telling me it would be picked up that day (every day). California > to New Jersey in 2 days seemed like a stretch so I allowed a week, not two. > It didn't help that the bill was over the "worst case" number by about > $800. New crank, new head, new starter, OK that is expensive so fair price > for that stuff. He shipped it back COD and told me it would be $275 but it > was $429. He said the engine weight was 320 pounds but the freight company > said 465 pounds. Got the engine back and the two sensors I asked to make > sure were there didn't make it back. The final "little thing" was that the > carb that I made a special point saying was working so well I wasn't even > sure I wanted him to touch it came was switched. He said it was not > switched and I would find my red paint under his black but I found green, > indicating he didn't even boil it out but just gave me another carb. All > this makes me wonder who I am dealing with. **** > > **** > > But the real question comes with the fact that there is water dripping out > the side of the engine between the head and the block. He claims that is > normal and will go away if I re-torque the head. I never heard of such a > thing and it didn't go away torquing it cold, or hot but I have been told > by someone else that I need to torque it cold after being hot, something I > can't do until Monday when I return from a trip. Should I believe him? Do > I have a non-issue or a serious problem. I don't know.**** > > **** > > The final thing is that he says he ran it for 15 hours but I am wondering > how it is that when I ran it for 15 minutes I had oil dripping out the > cover plate on the trans. Maybe he ran it flat and I have it at the normal > angle in the boat so I am going with the possibility that there is an > innocent explanation. There is about 1/4 quart too much oil in it (he put > the oil in) which someone told me is a sign the engine was run flat > (horizontal). There is oil dripping from the bottom of the engine. I sure > hope it is from this cover plate leak and not a rear main seal. Probable > dripped down and under until it got to the back of the engine where it then > dripped into the bilge.**** > > **** > > Has anyone dealt with Dave? Anyone think it is normal to have water drip > from a newly re built engine with a new head?**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > > > > **** > > **** > > > > -- /ch

Canceling a check will only postpone a court action. When you get to court the judge will likely ask you ...did you write this check...yes... did you know this is a legal document indicating that you agree to pay....pay the man...and if you disagree with the work file a court action to get your money back. So as you can see not honoring your check will only drag it out and cost you more in court costs. Been there done that. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: chris123 To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Was Van Ness Engineering - Now "On Paper" Its really the only way to go even in this electronic age. When I worked for a consulting firm all minutes of meetings, phone calls, and random conversations were recorded and submitted to the client. DND/USAF for confirmation and sign off. Everything was transferred to hard copy and filed by date and correspondent with reference numbers that were logged into the computer and cross referenced. Kept three girls busy for 8 years. Hard to argue with a sheet of paper with your "signature" on it....:) /ch On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:42 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: Yeah, via telephone that could've been "What? Did you tell me to go to Hell?" ;-) We had one developer who admitted he threw away all our correspondence apparently so he could deny ever seeing it. Fortunately we never had any issues with him. Paul In a message dated 5/10/2012 11:37:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hu… [at] bah.com writes: Paul, it’s one of the reasons I much prefer E-Mail to telephone. I can state myself carefully in written words and have evidence of what I wrote. Verbal discussions go to interpretation hell very quickly. Take Care Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:31 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Van Ness Engineering and my Gray Marine Engine saga Allen - If water is leaking out of the engine from your head gasket in can be also leaking INTO your cylinders as well which as you know can cause major damage. My first boss had a saying that "if it didn't happen on paper, it didn't happen" meaning that all conversations, details, specs whatever had to be on paper between us and our clients. If we had a conversation with a client we'd have to follow it up with a letters stating our understanding of the conversation (we were land planning consultants dealing with banks, lawyers and developers so you can understand the reasoning behind this). I'd get all your emails and correspondence together and threaten action with the BBB or if its not too late, cancel any checks or credit card payments if you can until you get all these issues solved. I'd be all over this guy like stink on a skunk if it were me. Good luck! Paul In a message dated 5/10/2012 10:40:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, al… [at] gmail.com writes: I replaced the head gasket on this engine myself and the head didn't leak. I hope he is right on the gasket swelling up but I don't know. I did resolve the carb issue. He remembered the color wrong. It was green. I know I have red engine enamel so when he said red, I assumed he was correct however I just reviewed one of the thousands of photographs I have of my boat and it was in fact green so I have to think that is OK even though the shaft seemed like the wrong diameter... I just got off the phone with him and he says they don't seal the transmission inspection plate in case it needs adjustment the first time the boat is run. It would have been nice if he told me that ahead of time. Like, how was I supposed to know that? By noticing the oil leak and phoning him? Seems like an odd way for it to come up. But that is his story. Mike, I fear all the things you are talking about while I hope he is telling me the truth. The sensors are a pain in the butt. The missing 1/8" flare to 1/8" NPT bushing looks like it will be hard to find. Allen On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 7:22 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Allen, I have worked on many hundreds of engines in the time that I ran my German Car shop in Marin from 1970 to 1989. I have worked on Ford, Chrysler, Hudson and Jeep flatheads in my teenaged years. I have never seen an engine that has been properly assembled leak coolent from the head/headgasket/block joint. The possibilities are: head not properly torqued, head gasket failure/wrong gasket, cracked head, cracked block. Retorquing a head is normal after heating and cooling cycle but water leaking out is not normal! It's not good that the estimates were short for the work and shipping. Also the carb issue is a real red flag as are the missing sensors. At best a retorque of the head may work. Next best is a new head gasket. From there possibilities go downhill quickly. The block or head may need to be resurfaced if this was not properly done before by Van Ness. This brings up the question if this much is wrong that you can see now what may be wrong inside that is not visible. As always, My Best, Mike Farrell From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:35 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Van Ness Engineering and my Gray Marine Engine saga I am having some problems figuring out if I am getting the truth from the guy who just rebuilt my engine. It started with him saying it would take 2 days to ship the engine to him and having it take 2 weeks out and one week back. Best I can tell, it took him a week to put the order in. A week with him telling me it would be picked up that day (every day). California to New Jersey in 2 days seemed like a stretch so I allowed a week, not two. It didn't help that the bill was over the "worst case" number by about $800. New crank, new head, new starter, OK that is expensive so fair price for that stuff. He shipped it back COD and told me it would be $275 but it was $429. He said the engine weight was 320 pounds but the freight company said 465 pounds. Got the engine back and the two sensors I asked to make sure were there didn't make it back. The final "little thing" was that the carb that I made a special point saying was working so well I wasn't even sure I wanted him to touch it came was switched. He said it was not switched and I would find my red paint under his black but I found green, indicating he didn't even boil it out but just gave me another carb. All this makes me wonder who I am dealing with. But the real question comes with the fact that there is water dripping out the side of the engine between the head and the block. He claims that is normal and will go away if I re-torque the head. I never heard of such a thing and it didn't go away torquing it cold, or hot but I have been told by someone else that I need to torque it cold after being hot, something I can't do until Monday when I return from a trip. Should I believe him? Do I have a non-issue or a serious problem. I don't know. The final thing is that he says he ran it for 15 hours but I am wondering how it is that when I ran it for 15 minutes I had oil dripping out the cover plate on the trans. Maybe he ran it flat and I have it at the normal angle in the boat so I am going with the possibility that there is an innocent explanation. There is about 1/4 quart too much oil in it (he put the oil in) which someone told me is a sign the engine was run flat (horizontal). There is oil dripping from the bottom of the engine. I sure hope it is from this cover plate leak and not a rear main seal. Probable dripped down and under until it got to the back of the engine where it then dripped into the bilge. Has anyone dealt with Dave? Anyone think it is normal to have water drip from a newly re built engine with a new head? Allen -- /ch __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7127 (20120510) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7127 (20120510) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

Mark - Technically you are correct, however it depends on how willing the mechanic is to pursue action and if lawyers' fees etc is worth the hassle to him. I've canceled a couple of checks when I knew I was in the right and didn't have any actions brought against me . . . one was to Pep Boys now that I think about it. They sent me a nasty letter which I answered with what my wife calls a "Billy Paul whup-ass letter" and I never heard another word from them. I think I have a knack for them as I actually shut my 2nd wife's divorce lawyer up when he wanted to get alimony from me (no kids involved btw). Paul In a message dated 5/10/2012 3:59:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ma… [at] cox.net writes: Canceling a check will only postpone a court action. When you get to court the judge will likely ask you ...did you write this check...yes... did you know this is a legal document indicating that you agree to pay....pay the man...and if you disagree with the work file a court action to get your money back. So as you can see not honoring your check will only drag it out and cost you more in court costs. Been there done that. Mark From: _chris123_ (mailto:ch… [at] gmail.com) To: _C… [at] yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Was Van Ness Engineering - Now "On Paper" Its really the only way to go even in this electronic age. When I worked for a consulting firm all minutes of meetings, phone calls, and random conversations were recorded and submitted to the client. DND/USAF for confirmation and sign off. Everything was transferred to hard copy and filed by date and correspondent with reference numbers that were logged into the computer and cross referenced. Kept three girls busy for 8 years. Hard to argue with a sheet of paper with your "signature" on it....:) /ch On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:42 AM, <_p… [at] aol.com_ (mailto:pw… [at] aol.com) > wrote: Yeah, via telephone that could've been "What? Did you tell me to go to Hell?" ;-) We had one developer who admitted he threw away all our correspondence apparently so he could deny ever seeing it. Fortunately we never had any issues with him. Paul In a message dated 5/10/2012 11:37:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _h… [at] bah.com_ (mailto:hu… [at] bah.com) writes: Paul, it’s one of the reasons I much prefer E-Mail to telephone. I can state myself carefully in written words and have evidence of what I wrote. Verbal discussions go to interpretation hell very quickly. Take Care Charlie From: _C… [at] yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) [mailto:_C… [at] yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf Of _p… [at] aol.com_ (mailto:pw… [at] aol.com) Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:31 AM To: _C… [at] yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Van Ness Engineering and my Gray Marine Engine saga Allen - If water is leaking out of the engine from your head gasket in can be also leaking INTO your cylinders as well which as you know can cause major damage. My first boss had a saying that "if it didn't happen on paper, it didn't happen" meaning that all conversations, details, specs whatever had to be on paper between us and our clients. If we had a conversation with a client we'd have to follow it up with a letters stating our understanding of the conversation (we were land planning consultants dealing with banks, lawyers and developers so you can understand the reasoning behind this). I'd get all your emails and correspondence together and threaten action with the BBB or if its not too late, cancel any checks or credit card payments if you can until you get all these issues solved. I'd be all over this guy like stink on a skunk if it were me. Good luck! Paul In a message dated 5/10/2012 10:40:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _a… [at] gmail.com_ (mailto:al… [at] gmail.com) writes: I replaced the head gasket on this engine myself and the head didn't leak. I hope he is right on the gasket swelling up but I don't know. I did resolve the carb issue. He remembered the color wrong. It was green. I know I have red engine enamel so when he said red, I assumed he was correct however I just reviewed one of the thousands of photographs I have of my boat and it was in fact green so I have to think that is OK even though the shaft seemed like the wrong diameter... I just got off the phone with him and he says they don't seal the transmission inspection plate in case it needs adjustment the first time the boat is run. It would have been nice if he told me that ahead of time. Like, how was I supposed to know that? By noticing the oil leak and phoning him? Seems like an odd way for it to come up. But that is his story. Mike, I fear all the things you are talking about while I hope he is telling me the truth. The sensors are a pain in the butt. The missing 1/8" flare to 1/8" NPT bushing looks like it will be hard to find. Allen On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 7:22 AM, mike farrell <_v… [at] yahoo.com_ (mailto:ve… [at] yahoo.com) > wrote: Allen, I have worked on many hundreds of engines in the time that I ran my German Car shop in Marin from 1970 to 1989. I have worked on Ford, Chrysler, Hudson and Jeep flatheads in my teenaged years. I have never seen an engine that has been properly assembled leak coolent from the head/headgasket/block joint. The possibilities are: head not properly torqued, head gasket failure/wrong gasket, cracked head, cracked block. Retorquing a head is normal after heating and cooling cycle but water leaking out is not normal! It's not good that the estimates were short for the work and shipping. Also the carb issue is a real red flag as are the missing sensors. At best a retorque of the head may work. Next best is a new head gasket. From there possibilities go downhill quickly. The block or head may need to be resurfaced if this was not properly done before by Van Ness. This brings up the question if this much is wrong that you can see now what may be wrong inside that is not visible. As always, My Best, Mike Farrell From: Allen Edwards <_a… [at] gmail.com_ (mailto:al… [at] gmail.com) > To: _C… [at] yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com) Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:35 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Van Ness Engineering and my Gray Marine Engine saga I am having some problems figuring out if I am getting the truth from the guy who just rebuilt my engine. It started with him saying it would take 2 days to ship the engine to him and having it take 2 weeks out and one week back. Best I can tell, it took him a week to put the order in. A week with him telling me it would be picked up that day (every day). California to New Jersey in 2 days seemed like a stretch so I allowed a week, not two. It didn't help that the bill was over the "worst case" number by about $800. New crank, new head, new starter, OK that is expensive so fair price for that stuff. He shipped it back COD and told me it would be $275 but it was $429. He said the engine weight was 320 pounds but the freight company said 465 pounds. Got the engine back and the two sensors I asked to make sure were there didn't make it back. The final "little thing" was that the carb that I made a special point saying was working so well I wasn't even sure I wanted him to touch it came was switched. He said it was not switched and I would find my red paint under his black but I found green, indicating he didn't even boil it out but just gave me another carb. All this makes me wonder who I am dealing with. But the real question comes with the fact that there is water dripping out the side of the engine between the head and the block. He claims that is normal and will go away if I re-torque the head. I never heard of such a thing and it didn't go away torquing it cold, or hot but I have been told by someone else that I need to torque it cold after being hot, something I can't do until Monday when I return from a trip. Should I believe him? Do I have a non-issue or a serious problem. I don't know. The final thing is that he says he ran it for 15 hours but I am wondering how it is that when I ran it for 15 minutes I had oil dripping out the cover plate on the trans. Maybe he ran it flat and I have it at the normal angle in the boat so I am going with the possibility that there is an innocent explanation. There is about 1/4 quart too much oil in it (he put the oil in) which someone told me is a sign the engine was run flat (horizontal). There is oil dripping from the bottom of the engine. I sure hope it is from this cover plate leak and not a rear main seal. Probable dripped down and under until it got to the back of the engine where it then dripped into the bilge. Has anyone dealt with Dave? Anyone think it is normal to have water drip from a newly re built engine with a new head? Allen -- /ch __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7127 (20120510) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. _http://www.eset.com_ (http://www.eset.com/) __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7127 (20120510) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. _http://www.eset.com_ (http://www.eset.com/)