My new bottom paint is coming off...

I got this really nice bottom job done. They sanded for 26.5 hours then painted it with the wrong paint. I have used ProLine 1088 Vinyl Copper Blue for years. They put black modified epoxy over it. I asked why and they said that the ProLine was better and they made a mistake, wold fix it, no problem. They said that ProLine needs a barrier coat and put that between the modified epoxy and the new ProLine. Looked great. Oh, there was racing graphite in the ProLine and perhaps in the Modified Epoxy. Anyway, I dove to clean the bottom last week and there are half a dozen spots where the paint is coming off. Most kind of silver dollar size. One spot, probably where a strap was, is about 6x6 and is down to the old paint. Some came off in my hand as I rubbed a towel over the paint in some other random spot. The flake that came off was blue on one side and black on the other. As the barrier coat was light gray, I am thinking that it is the modified epoxy that is coming off but one spot does not make a story. I phoned ProLine in San Diego and they had no idea about comparability. They were not even sure what modified epoxy is. I don't know either except I read it is one of the three main kinds of bottom paint. When I first had the ProLine put on 15 years ago, they told me they used it because they were not sure what kind of paint I had and it can go over anything but be careful because nothing can go over it. The yard this year said the opposite, that you can't put it over other types of bottom paint and thus the barrier coat. Anyone know which story is correct? The plan is to wait until September and see if it is still just a few isolated spots, or if it has grown and we have general paint failure. I like that plan. Of course, the yard will make good and do whatever it takes to make it right, I would just like to collect as much information from anyone who really knows what might be going on as I can. By the way, the new bottom job seems to have made the boat quite fast so there is a good side to the story. Allen

Allen, I'm a bit confused by your letter. Did they put modified epoxy, the common "hard paint" over a vinyl type bottom paint? I was lead to believe Epoxy is one of the premium type bottom paints. Then there is the kind that sloughs off so that after a few years it is all rubbed off by the action of water flow passing over it, whereas, the epoxy will tend to stay on and the copper will dissolve out of the paint's pores over 4 plus years, and only be removed by constant abrasive scrubbing. I found this off google. They say the 'aggrsive solvents in vinyl paint will lift off the paint underneath it if it is different type'. http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/applying-bottom-paint.asp Jerry From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:56 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] My new bottom paint is coming off... I got this really nice bottom job done. They sanded for 26.5 hours then painted it with the wrong paint. I have used ProLine 1088 Vinyl Copper Blue for years. They put black modified epoxy over it. I asked why and they said that the ProLine was better and they made a mistake, wold fix it, no problem. They said that ProLine needs a barrier coat and put that between the modified epoxy and the new ProLine. Looked great. Oh, there was racing graphite in the ProLine and perhaps in the Modified Epoxy. Anyway, I dove to clean the bottom last week and there are half a dozen spots where the paint is coming off. Most kind of silver dollar size. One spot, probably where a strap was, is about 6x6 and is down to the old paint. Some came off in my hand as I rubbed a towel over the paint in some other random spot. The flake that came off was blue on one side and black on the other. As the barrier coat was light gray, I am thinking that it is the modified epoxy that is coming off but one spot does not make a story. I phoned ProLine in San Diego and they had no idea about comparability. They were not even sure what modified epoxy is. I don't know either except I read it is one of the three main kinds of bottom paint. When I first had the ProLine put on 15 years ago, they told me they used it because they were not sure what kind of paint I had and it can go over anything but be careful because nothing can go over it. The yard this year said the opposite, that you can't put it over other types of bottom paint and thus the barrier coat. Anyone know which story is correct? The plan is to wait until September and see if it is still just a few isolated spots, or if it has grown and we have general paint failure. I like that plan. Of course, the yard will make good and do whatever it takes to make it right, I would just like to collect as much information from anyone who really knows what might be going on as I can. By the way, the new bottom job seems to have made the boat quite fast so there is a good side to the story. Allen

Thanks for the link. To clarify the work order was vinyl over the old vinyl. What they did was vinyl over barrier coat over modified epoxy over the old vinyl. The modified epoxy was a mistake. The barrier coat was to deal with the lifting that the article talks about. Not sure it worked... When I asked why they put the black paint on instead of blue they discovered that they had put modified epoxy on instead of the vinyl the work order called for. I asked if the modified epoxy was better and if what they did was OK. (I really didn't mind the black, I was just asking questions at that point). They said the ProLine was better and that they would re-do it so I got what I asked for. The question at this point is what to do. Spot repair or sand all the modified epoxy off and start over. I guess time will tell. Allen On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 10:49 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > ** > > > Allen, I'm a bit confused by your letter. Did they put modified epoxy, the > common "hard paint" over a vinyl type bottom paint? I was lead to believe > Epoxy is one of the premium type bottom paints. Then there is the kind that > sloughs off so that after a few years it is all rubbed off by the action of > water flow passing over it, whereas, the epoxy will tend to stay on and the > copper will dissolve out of the paint's pores over 4 plus years, and only > be removed by constant abrasive scrubbing. I found this off google. They > say the 'aggrsive solvents in vinyl paint will lift off the paint > underneath it if it is different type'. > http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/applying-bottom-paint.asp > Jerry > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Monday, June 11, 2012 9:56 PM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] My new bottom paint is coming off... > > > I got this really nice bottom job done. They sanded for 26.5 hours then > painted it with the wrong paint. I have used ProLine 1088 Vinyl Copper > Blue for years. They put black modified epoxy over it. I asked why and > they said that the ProLine was better and they made a mistake, wold fix it, > no problem. They said that ProLine needs a barrier coat and put that > between the modified epoxy and the new ProLine. Looked great. Oh, there > was racing graphite in the ProLine and perhaps in the Modified Epoxy. > Anyway, I dove to clean the bottom last week and there are half a dozen > spots where the paint is coming off. Most kind of silver dollar size. One > spot, probably where a strap was, is about 6x6 and is down to the old > paint. Some came off in my hand as I rubbed a towel over the paint in some > other random spot. The flake that came off was blue on one side and black > on the other. As the barrier coat was light gray, I am thinking that it is > the modified epoxy that is coming off but one spot does not make a story. > > I phoned ProLine in San Diego and they had no idea about comparability. > They were not even sure what modified epoxy is. I don't know either > except I read it is one of the three main kinds of bottom paint. > > When I first had the ProLine put on 15 years ago, they told me they used > it because they were not sure what kind of paint I had and it can go over > anything but be careful because nothing can go over it. The yard this year > said the opposite, that you can't put it over other types of bottom paint > and thus the barrier coat. > > Anyone know which story is correct? > > The plan is to wait until September and see if it is still just a few > isolated spots, or if it has grown and we have general paint failure. I > like that plan. Of course, the yard will make good and do whatever it > takes to make it right, I would just like to collect as much information > from anyone who really knows what might be going on as I can. > > By the way, the new bottom job seems to have made the boat quite fast so > there is a good side to the story. > > Allen > > > > >

Allen, as far as your bottom paint goes, I've never messed with the vinyl so I don't know. (I went from Baltoplate to Trinidad SR a few years back when the Balto could not keep up with a particularly hot summer.) Could be a bunch of things. However, when I see "barrier coat" I get suspicious. I've seen several cases of paint peeling from barrier coat. I understand that the top barrier coat cannot be allowed to completely dry before the first coat of bottom paint is put over it. I just hope that the reaction among the various things you have painted on the bottom is not highly exothermic. Best of Luck Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 11:46 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] My new bottom paint is coming off... Thanks for the link. To clarify the work order was vinyl over the old vinyl. What they did was vinyl over barrier coat over modified epoxy over the old vinyl. The modified epoxy was a mistake. The barrier coat was to deal with the lifting that the article talks about. Not sure it worked... When I asked why they put the black paint on instead of blue they discovered that they had put modified epoxy on instead of the vinyl the work order called for. I asked if the modified epoxy was better and if what they did was OK. (I really didn't mind the black, I was just asking questions at that point). They said the ProLine was better and that they would re-do it so I got what I asked for. The question at this point is what to do. Spot repair or sand all the modified epoxy off and start over. I guess time will tell. Allen On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 10:49 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:so… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: Allen, I'm a bit confused by your letter. Did they put modified epoxy, the common "hard paint" over a vinyl type bottom paint? I was lead to believe Epoxy is one of the premium type bottom paints. Then there is the kind that sloughs off so that after a few years it is all rubbed off by the action of water flow passing over it, whereas, the epoxy will tend to stay on and the copper will dissolve out of the paint's pores over 4 plus years, and only be removed by constant abrasive scrubbing. I found this off google. They say the 'aggrsive solvents in vinyl paint will lift off the paint underneath it if it is different type'. http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/applying-bottom-paint.asp Jerry From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com>> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:56 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] My new bottom paint is coming off... I got this really nice bottom job done. They sanded for 26.5 hours then painted it with the wrong paint. I have used ProLine 1088 Vinyl Copper Blue for years. They put black modified epoxy over it. I asked why and they said that the ProLine was better and they made a mistake, wold fix it, no problem. They said that ProLine needs a barrier coat and put that between the modified epoxy and the new ProLine. Looked great. Oh, there was racing graphite in the ProLine and perhaps in the Modified Epoxy. Anyway, I dove to clean the bottom last week and there are half a dozen spots where the paint is coming off. Most kind of silver dollar size. One spot, probably where a strap was, is about 6x6 and is down to the old paint. Some came off in my hand as I rubbed a towel over the paint in some other random spot. The flake that came off was blue on one side and black on the other. As the barrier coat was light gray, I am thinking that it is the modified epoxy that is coming off but one spot does not make a story. I phoned ProLine in San Diego and they had no idea about comparability. They were not even sure what modified epoxy is. I don't know either except I read it is one of the three main kinds of bottom paint. When I first had the ProLine put on 15 years ago, they told me they used it because they were not sure what kind of paint I had and it can go over anything but be careful because nothing can go over it. The yard this year said the opposite, that you can't put it over other types of bottom paint and thus the barrier coat. Anyone know which story is correct? The plan is to wait until September and see if it is still just a few isolated spots, or if it has grown and we have general paint failure. I like that plan. Of course, the yard will make good and do whatever it takes to make it right, I would just like to collect as much information from anyone who really knows what might be going on as I can. By the way, the new bottom job seems to have made the boat quite fast so there is a good side to the story. Allen

http://www.pinetree.net/humor/thermodynamics.html On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) < hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: > ** > > > Allen, as far as your bottom paint goes, I’ve never messed with the > vinyl so I don’t know. (I went from Baltoplate to Trinidad SR a few years > back when the Balto could not keep up with a particularly hot summer.) > Could be a bunch of things. However, when I see “barrier coat” I get > suspicious. I’ve seen several cases of paint peeling from barrier coat. I > understand that the top barrier coat cannot be allowed to completely dry > before the first coat of bottom paint is put over it.**** > > ** ** > > I just hope that the reaction among the various things you have painted on > the bottom is not highly exothermic.**** > > ** ** > > Best of Luck**** > > Charlie**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 12, 2012 11:46 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] My new bottom paint is coming off... > **** > > ** ** > > > > Thanks for the link. **** > > ** ** > > To clarify the work order was vinyl over the old vinyl. What they did was > vinyl over barrier coat over modified epoxy over the old vinyl. The > modified epoxy was a mistake. The barrier coat was to deal with the > lifting that the article talks about. Not sure it worked...**** > > ** ** > > When I asked why they put the black paint on instead of blue they > discovered that they had put modified epoxy on instead of the vinyl the > work order called for. I asked if the modified epoxy was better and if > what they did was OK. (I really didn't mind the black, I was just asking > questions at that point). They said the ProLine was better and that they > would re-do it so I got what I asked for.**** > > ** ** > > The question at this point is what to do. Spot repair or sand all the > modified epoxy off and start over. I guess time will tell.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 10:49 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > Allen, I'm a bit confused by your letter. Did they put modified epoxy, the > common "hard paint" over a vinyl type bottom paint? I was lead to believe > Epoxy is one of the premium type bottom paints. Then there is the kind that > sloughs off so that after a few years it is all rubbed off by the action of > water flow passing over it, whereas, the epoxy will tend to stay on and the > copper will dissolve out of the paint's pores over 4 plus years, and only > be removed by constant abrasive scrubbing. I found this off google. They > say the 'aggrsive solvents in vinyl paint will lift off the paint > underneath it if it is different type'. > http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/applying-bottom-paint.asp > Jerry**** > > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Monday, June 11, 2012 9:56 PM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] My new bottom paint is coming off...**** > > ** ** > > **** > > I got this really nice bottom job done. They sanded for 26.5 hours then > painted it with the wrong paint. I have used ProLine 1088 Vinyl Copper > Blue for years. They put black modified epoxy over it. I asked why and > they said that the ProLine was better and they made a mistake, wold fix it, > no problem. They said that ProLine needs a barrier coat and put that > between the modified epoxy and the new ProLine. Looked great. Oh, there > was racing graphite in the ProLine and perhaps in the Modified Epoxy. > Anyway, I dove to clean the bottom last week and there are half a dozen > spots where the paint is coming off. Most kind of silver dollar size. One > spot, probably where a strap was, is about 6x6 and is down to the old > paint. Some came off in my hand as I rubbed a towel over the paint in some > other random spot. The flake that came off was blue on one side and black > on the other. As the barrier coat was light gray, I am thinking that it is > the modified epoxy that is coming off but one spot does not make a story.* > *** > > ** ** > > I phoned ProLine in San Diego and they had no idea about comparability. > They were not even sure what modified epoxy is. I don't know either > except I read it is one of the three main kinds of bottom paint.**** > > ** ** > > When I first had the ProLine put on 15 years ago, they told me they used > it because they were not sure what kind of paint I had and it can go over > anything but be careful because nothing can go over it. The yard this year > said the opposite, that you can't put it over other types of bottom paint > and thus the barrier coat.**** > > ** ** > > Anyone know which story is correct?**** > > ** ** > > The plan is to wait until September and see if it is still just a few > isolated spots, or if it has grown and we have general paint failure. I > like that plan. Of course, the yard will make good and do whatever it > takes to make it right, I would just like to collect as much information > from anyone who really knows what might be going on as I can.**** > > ** ** > > By the way, the new bottom job seems to have made the boat quite fast so > there is a good side to the story.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > > > > **** > > **** > > >

Charlie. Exothermic? Perhaps the paint combination is causing the water to boil at the paint water boundary layer. This could account for Papooses extra ordinary speed! I've heard of racers applying liquid Tide to the bottom just before racing, and using tiny soap bubbles to achieve the same effect. Jerry PS: "A wasted mind is a terrible thing" PPS: I've gotten 15 years out of my Trinidad. My boat cleaner says it's cheaper for him to clean the bottom twice a month during the warm season than for me to haul and repaint. I applied red (highest Cu content) over blue, so I'll know when the paint is completely gone. Meanwhile, this highest Cu.content bottom paint I bought at west marine 10 years ago keeps going up in value. I wonder what the shelf life is of an un-opened can? From: "Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE)" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:41 AM Subject: RE: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] My new bottom paint is coming off... Allen, as far as your bottom paint goes, I’ve never messed with the vinyl so I don’t know. (I went from Baltoplate to Trinidad SR a few years back when the Balto could not keep up with a particularly hot summer.) Could be a bunch of things. However, when I see “barrier coat” I get suspicious. I’ve seen several cases of paint peeling from barrier coat. I understand that the top barrier coat cannot be allowed to completely dry before the first coat of bottom paint is put over it. I just hope that the reaction among the various things you have painted on the bottom is not highly exothermic. Best of Luck Charlie From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 11:46 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] My new bottom paint is coming off... Thanks for the link. To clarify the work order was vinyl over the old vinyl. What they did was vinyl over barrier coat over modified epoxy over the old vinyl. The modified epoxy was a mistake. The barrier coat was to deal with the lifting that the article talks about. Not sure it worked... When I asked why they put the black paint on instead of blue they discovered that they had put modified epoxy on instead of the vinyl the work order called for. I asked if the modified epoxy was better and if what they did was OK. (I really didn't mind the black, I was just asking questions at that point). They said the ProLine was better and that they would re-do it so I got what I asked for. The question at this point is what to do. Spot repair or sand all the modified epoxy off and start over. I guess time will tell. Allen On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 10:49 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Allen, I'm a bit confused by your letter. Did they put modified epoxy, the common "hard paint" over a vinyl type bottom paint? I was lead to believe Epoxy is one of the premium type bottom paints. Then there is the kind that sloughs off so that after a few years it is all rubbed off by the action of water flow passing over it, whereas, the epoxy will tend to stay on and the copper will dissolve out of the paint's pores over 4 plus years, and only be removed by constant abrasive scrubbing. I found this off google. They say the 'aggrsive solvents in vinyl paint will lift off the paint underneath it if it is different type'. http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/applying-bottom-paint.asp Jerry From:Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:56 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] My new bottom paint is coming off... I got this really nice bottom job done. They sanded for 26.5 hours then painted it with the wrong paint. I have used ProLine 1088 Vinyl Copper Blue for years. They put black modified epoxy over it. I asked why and they said that the ProLine was better and they made a mistake, wold fix it, no problem. They said that ProLine needs a barrier coat and put that between the modified epoxy and the new ProLine. Looked great. Oh, there was racing graphite in the ProLine and perhaps in the Modified Epoxy. Anyway, I dove to clean the bottom last week and there are half a dozen spots where the paint is coming off. Most kind of silver dollar size. One spot, probably where a strap was, is about 6x6 and is down to the old paint. Some came off in my hand as I rubbed a towel over the paint in some other random spot. The flake that came off was blue on one side and black on the other. As the barrier coat was light gray, I am thinking that it is the modified epoxy that is coming off but one spot does not make a story. I phoned ProLine in San Diego and they had no idea about comparability. They were not even sure what modified epoxy is. I don't know either except I read it is one of the three main kinds of bottom paint. When I first had the ProLine put on 15 years ago, they told me they used it because they were not sure what kind of paint I had and it can go over anything but be careful because nothing can go over it. The yard this year said the opposite, that you can't put it over other types of bottom paint and thus the barrier coat. Anyone know which story is correct? The plan is to wait until September and see if it is still just a few isolated spots, or if it has grown and we have general paint failure. I like that plan. Of course, the yard will make good and do whatever it takes to make it right, I would just like to collect as much information from anyone who really knows what might be going on as I can. By the way, the new bottom job seems to have made the boat quite fast so there is a good side to the story. Allen