Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do?

What kind of cal do you own?.... Anyway, better to be safe and live to sail another day. You could have had RoW and lost the race if you collided. Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >Allen, > >Unless you know the driver and the boat well enough to know that they would have ducked or tacked, you did the right thing. > >Greg > >--- On Wed, 6/27/12, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > >From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >Subject: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Date: Wednesday, June 27, 2012, 12:10 AM > > > > > > > >I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two boat lengths away. > > >http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 > > >By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. > > >Allen > > > >

In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up to. There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never realized we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can tack to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course yelled back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his actions. 1) he was an overtaking boat. 2) he was a windward boat In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara, Ca. In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, my… [at] hotmail.com writes: and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning opportunity. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net From: ve… [at] yahoo.com Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision is imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not tell the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by insisting that all follow the same rules. My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two boat lengths away. http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. Allen

Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in front and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. Randy ai… [at] aol.com wrote: In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up to. There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never realized we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can tack to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course yelled back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his actions. 1) he was an overtaking boat. 2) he was a windward boat In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara, Ca. In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, my… [at] hotmail.com writes: and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning opportunity. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net From: ve… [at] yahoo.com Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision is imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not tell the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by insisting that all follow the same rules. My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two boat lengths away. http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. Allen TODAY(Beta) • Powered by Yahoo! Siblings who are star athletes Get Yahoo Search App! • Privacy Policy

Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with him concluded. 1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and it was 85 feet. 2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but stay as close to your max VMG. 3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For several reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster and we were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their racing ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the opinion at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they were doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return communication. 4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to proper course. 5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. 6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against a Port tack boat http://l-36.com/even.php [image: tiger2] [image: Inline image 1] The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing your boat in the process. Allen On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in front > and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his > hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. > > I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. > > Randy > Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G > > > > ai… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > > In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep > yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I > then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up to. > There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never realized > we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually > heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat > hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. > I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer > can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off > their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. > Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling > "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? > Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point > higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can tack > to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course yelled > back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take > evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his actions. > 1) he was an overtaking boat. > 2) he was a windward boat > In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat > him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! > > Daniel Casey > "AirTime" > Cal 9.2R #75 > Santa Barbara, Ca. > > In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > my… [at] hotmail.com writes: > > > > and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in > the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning opportunity. > Reggie > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net > From: ve… [at] yahoo.com > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a > tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course > you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or > helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" > and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision is > imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " > Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. > Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was > acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. > This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. > When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. > Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand > the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . > Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your > competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not tell > the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by > insisting that all follow the same rules. > My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would > do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto > Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port > tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. > What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat > claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked > us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two > boat lengths away. > > http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 > > By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second > place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 > (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all > boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is > 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. > > Allen > > > > > > > > >

Allen, I'm interested in your comment number 4. Do you know where that is in the racing rules? Since me Cal 24 doesn't point worth a darn, I frequently not only get overtaken, but pinched up to the point where I have to tack away, which isn't in the cards in a crowded start, leaving me getting yelled at and dead in the water. You mean, the overtaking boat can't head me up while yelling "Leeward!!"? I can just yell back "I'm sailing my proper course, bugger off!!?" I'd like that. Jerry From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with him concluded. 1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and it was 85 feet. 2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but stay as close to your max VMG. 3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For several reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster and we were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their racing ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the opinion at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they were doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return communication. 4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to proper course. 5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. 6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against a Port tack boat http://l-36.com/even.php The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing your boat in the process. Allen On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > >Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in front and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. > > >I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. > > >Randy >Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G > > > >ai… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > >In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up to. There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never realized we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. >I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. >Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? >Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can tack to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course yelled back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his actions. >1) he was an overtaking boat. >2) he was a windward boat >In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! > >Daniel Casey >"AirTime" >Cal 9.2R #75 >Santa Barbara, Ca. > >In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, my… [at] hotmail.com writes: > >>and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning opportunity. >>Reggie >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net >>From: ve… [at] yahoo.com >>Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? >> >> >> Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision is imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. >> This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . >> Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not tell the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by insisting that all follow the same rules. >> My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >> >> >>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM >>Subject: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? >> >> >> >> >>I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two boat lengths away. >> >> >>http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 >> >> >>By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. >> >> >>Allen >> >> >> >> >> >> >>

I think I had it backward. It it the proper course of the leeward boat. Too bad. In any event, the overtaking boat cannot complain about proper course, which was the context of the original question. Allen * * *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. *17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE* If a boat *clear astern *becomes *overlapped *within two of her hull lengths to *leeward *of a boat on the same *tack*, she shall not sail above her *proper course *while they remain on the same *tack *and *overlapped* within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the *overlap* begins while the *windward *boat is required by rule 13 to *keep clear*. On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > ** > > > Allen, I'm interested in your comment number 4. Do you know where that is > in the racing rules? Since me Cal 24 doesn't point worth a darn, I > frequently not only get overtaken, but pinched up to the point where I have > to tack away, which isn't in the cards in a crowded start, leaving me > getting yelled at and dead in the water. You mean, the overtaking boat > can't head me up while yelling "Leeward!!"? I can just yell back "I'm > sailing my proper course, bugger off!!?" I'd like that. > Jerry > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:45 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I > will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with > him concluded. > > 1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as > fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and > it was 85 feet. > > 2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no > movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it > closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready > to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are > going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that > is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but > stay as close to your max VMG. > > 3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For > several reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster > and we were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their > racing ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the > opinion at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they > were doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return > communication. > > 4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to > a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the > overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined > by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim > that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would > be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to > proper course. > > 5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it > again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple > feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the > boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a > collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat > lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away > with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor > tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat > lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means > you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. > > 6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against > a Port tack boat > http://l-36.com/even.php > > [image: tiger2] > [image: Inline image 1] > > > The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to > avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. > But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth > finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing your > boat in the process. > > > > Allen > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > ** > > Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in > front and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds > his hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. > > I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. > > Randy > Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G > > > > ai… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep > yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I > then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up to. > There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never realized > we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually > heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat > hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. > I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer > can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off > their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. > Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling > "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? > Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point > higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can tack > to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course yelled > back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take > evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his actions. > 1) he was an overtaking boat. > 2) he was a windward boat > In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat > him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! > > Daniel Casey > "AirTime" > Cal 9.2R #75 > Santa Barbara, Ca. > > In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > my… [at] hotmail.com writes: > > > and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope > in the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning > opportunity. > Reggie > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net > From: ve… [at] yahoo.com > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a > tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course > you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or > helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" > and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision is > imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " > Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. > Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was > acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. > This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. > When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. > Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand > the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . > Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your > competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not tell > the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by > insisting that all follow the same rules. > My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would > do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto > Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port > tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. > What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat > claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked > us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two > boat lengths away. > > http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 > > By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second > place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 > (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all > boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is > 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. > > Allen > > > > > > > > > > > >

Randy, WOOoo HOooo, I LOVE IT! Jerry. From: Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com> To: ai… [at] aol.com; Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in front and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. Randy ai… [at] aol.com wrote: In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up to. There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never realized we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can tack to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course yelled back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his actions. 1) he was an overtaking boat. 2) he was a windward boat In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara, Ca. In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, my… [at] hotmail.com writes: >and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning opportunity. >Reggie > > > >________________________________ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net >From: ve… [at] yahoo.com >Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision is imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. > This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . > Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not tell the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by insisting that all follow the same rules. > My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > >From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM >Subject: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > >I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two boat lengths away. > > >http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 > > >By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. > > >Allen > > > > > > >

Allen. That gives me a good idea. Since US Sailing is constantly revising racing rules to make them more fair, maybe it's about time the overtaking boat can not sail above the overtaken boat's proper course? It would me more than fair, especially when you consider that PHRF, for example, handicaps each boat to give each a fair chance to win a race. Why should I have to take gas every time a fin keel boat wants to out point and blow me off the course:? What if the overtaken boat was a gaff rigged boat? A square rigged boat?? It seems to me it would make a lot of sense. Jerry From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? I think I had it backward. It it the proper course of the leeward boat. Too bad. In any event, the overtaking boat cannot complain about proper course, which was the context of the original question. Allen Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear. On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > >Allen, I'm interested in your comment number 4. Do you know where that is in the racing rules? Since me Cal 24 doesn't point worth a darn, I frequently not only get overtaken, but pinched up to the point where I have to tack away, which isn't in the cards in a crowded start, leaving me getting yelled at and dead in the water. You mean, the overtaking boat can't head me up while yelling "Leeward!!"? I can just yell back "I'm sailing my proper course, bugger off!!?" I'd like that. > >Jerry > > > > >________________________________ > >From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:45 AM > >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > >Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with him concluded. > > >1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and it was 85 feet. > > >2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but stay as close to your max VMG. > > >3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For several reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster and we were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their racing ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the opinion at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they were doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return communication. > > >4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to proper course. > > >5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. > > >6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against a Port tack boat >http://l-36.com/even.php > > > > > > >The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing your boat in the process. > > > > > > >Allen > > >On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> >>Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in front and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. >> >> >>I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. >> >> >>Randy >>Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G >> >> >> >>ai… [at] aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >>In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up to. There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never realized we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. >>I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. >>Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? >>Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can tack to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course yelled back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his actions. >>1) he was an overtaking boat. >>2) he was a windward boat >>In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! >> >>Daniel Casey >>"AirTime" >>Cal 9.2R #75 >>Santa Barbara, Ca. >> >>In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, my… [at] hotmail.com writes: >> >>>and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning opportunity. >>>Reggie >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net >>>From: ve… [at] yahoo.com >>>Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? >>> >>> >>> Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision is imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. >>> This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . >>> Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not tell the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by insisting that all follow the same rules. >>> My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >>> >>> >>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM >>>Subject: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two boat lengths away. >>> >>> >>>http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 >>> >>> >>>By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. >>> >>> >>>Allen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > >

You should have protested. All else is not revelent. Pictures of damaged boats it exciting, following the rules is dull but rewarding. Sniveling after the fact is not productive. My best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with him concluded. 1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and it was 85 feet. 2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but stay as close to your max VMG. 3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For several reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster and we were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their racing ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the opinion at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they were doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return communication. 4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to proper course. 5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. 6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against a Port tack boat http://l-36.com/even.php The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing your boat in the process. Allen On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in front and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. > > >I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. > > >Randy >Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G > > > >ai… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > >In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up to. There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never realized we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. >I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. >Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? >Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can tack to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course yelled back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his actions. >1) he was an overtaking boat. >2) he was a windward boat >In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! > >Daniel Casey >"AirTime" >Cal 9.2R #75 >Santa Barbara, Ca. > >In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, my… [at] hotmail.com writes: > >>and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning opportunity. >>Reggie >> >> >> >>________________________________ >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net >>From: ve… [at] yahoo.com >>Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? >> >> >> Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision is imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. >> This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . >> Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not tell the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by insisting that all follow the same rules. >> My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >> >> >>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM >>Subject: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? >> >> >> >> >>I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two boat lengths away. >> >> >>http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 >> >> >>By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. >> >> >>Allen >> >> >> >> >> >> >>

Allen, I just wanted to thank you for putting up these videos and following up with a question about tactics or sail trim or whatever it is. It brings about good discussion and is interesting to watch you guys work and move about the boat (coming from a non-racer perspective). Thanks, Adam On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 2:19 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > You should have protested. All else is not revelent. Pictures of damaged > boats it exciting, following the rules is dull but rewarding. Sniveling > after the fact is not productive. > My best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:45 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I > will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with > him concluded. > > 1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as > fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and > it was 85 feet. > > 2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no > movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it > closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready > to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are > going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that > is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but > stay as close to your max VMG. > > 3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For > several reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster > and we were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their > racing ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the > opinion at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they > were doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return > communication. > > 4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to > a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the > overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined > by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim > that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would > be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to > proper course. > > 5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it > again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple > feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the > boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a > collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat > lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away > with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor > tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat > lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means > you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. > > 6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against > a Port tack boat > http://l-36.com/even.php > > [image: tiger2] > [image: Inline image 1] > > > The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to > avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. > But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth > finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing your > boat in the process. > > > > Allen > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > ** > > Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in > front and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds > his hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. > > I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. > > Randy > Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G > > > > ai… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep > yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I > then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up to. > There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never realized > we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually > heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat > hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. > I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer > can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off > their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. > Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling > "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? > Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point > higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can tack > to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course yelled > back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take > evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his actions. > 1) he was an overtaking boat. > 2) he was a windward boat > In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat > him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! > > Daniel Casey > "AirTime" > Cal 9.2R #75 > Santa Barbara, Ca. > > In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > my… [at] hotmail.com writes: > > > and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in > the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning opportunity. > Reggie > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net > From: ve… [at] yahoo.com > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a > tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course > you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or > helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" > and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision is > imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " > Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. > Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was > acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. > This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. > When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. > Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand > the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . > Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your > competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not tell > the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by > insisting that all follow the same rules. > My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would > do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto > Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port > tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. > What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat > claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked > us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two > boat lengths away. > > http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 > > By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second > place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 > (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all > boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is > 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. > > Allen > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Allen, I haven't been able to watch the video, so I'm giving my opinion based on your original description and clarifications below. I've done a lot of racing in lots of different types of boats, from a wooden gaff rigged schooner to a Tornado catamaran, including racing Cals in SF Bay. I would have done what you did, which was the smart thing. You were uncomfortable and protected your boat in a situation where you could afford to not push your rights. That was the right decision. You chose not to protest, also the right decision, since I believe you would not have won the protest. Two boat lengths is plenty for him to have ducked you or tacked and you couldn't prove he wouldn't have done either, so the protest committee would have disallowed the protest. You also did the right thing talking to the other skipper afterwards. It's not a comfortable thing to approach the other skipper after an incident like that, and being conflict averse it's not something I enjoy, but I always do so and congratulate you on your actions. Good discussion! George From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com on behalf of Allen Edwards Sent: Wed 6/27/2012 10:45 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with him concluded. 1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and it was 85 feet. 2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but stay as close to your max VMG. 3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For several reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster and we were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their racing ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the opinion at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they were doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return communication. 4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to proper course. 5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. 6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against a Port tack boat http://l-36.com/even.php [image: tiger2] [image: Inline image 1] The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing your boat in the process. Allen On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in front > and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his > hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. > > I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. > > Randy > Sent from my Samsung EpicT 4G > > > > ai… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > > In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep > yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I > then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up to. > There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never realized > we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually > heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat > hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. > I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer > can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off > their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. > Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling > "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? > Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point > higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can tack > to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course yelled > back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take > evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his actions. > 1) he was an overtaking boat. > 2) he was a windward boat > In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat > him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! > > Daniel Casey > "AirTime" > Cal 9.2R #75 > Santa Barbara, Ca. > > In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > my… [at] hotmail.com writes: > > > > and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in > the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning opportunity. > Reggie > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net > From: ve… [at] yahoo.com > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a > tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course > you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or > helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" > and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision is > imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " > Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. > Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was > acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. > This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. > When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. > Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand > the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . > Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your > competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not tell > the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by > insisting that all follow the same rules. > My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would > do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto > Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port > tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. > What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat > claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked > us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two > boat lengths away. > > http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 > > By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second > place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 > (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all > boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is > 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. > > Allen > > > > > > > > >

Thanks George and everyone else. I appreciate the feedback. George, do watch the video. It is short and you can see the other boat clearly. There is a rule that says I have the right of way (Rule 10) but another one that says I should not get hit (Rule 14). In this situation where my boat takes a lot longer to get out of the way then his boat would to not hit me, I need to respect rule 14 before he needs to respect rule 10. I think that in that case there is no way for me to win a protest so I said what I said and let it go. If I could do the conversation over again, I would suggest that he needs to make his intentions clear as to how he is going to avoid hitting me. I thought there was a rule about that and I always make it clear to a boat that has right of way over me what I am going to do by making some exaggerated move or talk to the other skipper. However, I could not find such a rule. Speaking of races. I was watching the TP-52s in Big Boat Series a couple of years ago from the deck at the StFYC. There was a situation where two boats were overlapped and the inside ahead boat was about to enter the lunch room. They called for room and were told to "tack now", which they did. Then the outside boat ducked them and tacked to windward of them, a standard smart racing move. At this time these two boats were on port and Samba Pa Ti comes along on Starboard right in front of them. Everyone swerved and no boats were hit, nobody seemed upset. The crowd on the deck broke into applause. I got into a conversation with an attractive woman, who was also watching the race, about boats and how close they came and mentioned that in what was the last Americas Cup race at the time that the US skipper had hit another boat on purpose and that Ellison fired him because of it. She said something I will never forget: "My husband never hit anyone on purpose" Allen On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Elwers, George A. <ge… [at] saic.com > wrote: > ** > > > > Allen, > > I haven't been able to watch the video, so I'm giving my opinion based on > your original description and clarifications below. > > I've done a lot of racing in lots of different types of boats, from a > wooden gaff rigged schooner to a Tornado catamaran, including racing Cals > in SF Bay. > > I would have done what you did, which was the smart thing. You were > uncomfortable and protected your boat in a situation where you could afford > to not push your rights. That was the right decision. You chose not to > protest, also the right decision, since I believe you would not have won > the protest. Two boat lengths is plenty for him to have ducked you or > tacked and you couldn't prove he wouldn't have done either, so the protest > committee would have disallowed the protest. You also did the right thing > talking to the other skipper afterwards. It's not a comfortable thing to > approach the other skipper after an incident like that, and being conflict > averse it's not something I enjoy, but I always do so and congratulate you > on your actions. > > Good discussion! > George > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com on behalf of Allen Edwards > Sent: Wed 6/27/2012 10:45 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I > will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with > him concluded. > > 1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as > fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and > it was 85 feet. > > 2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no > movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it > closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready > to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are > going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that > is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but > stay as close to your max VMG. > > 3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For several > reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster and we > were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their racing > ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the opinion > at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they were > doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return > communication. > > 4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to > a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the > overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined > by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim > that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would > be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to > proper course. > > 5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it > again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple > feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the > boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a > collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat > lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away > with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor > tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat > lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means > you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. > > 6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against > a Port tack boat > http://l-36.com/even.php > > [image: tiger2] > [image: Inline image 1] > > The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to > avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. > But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth > finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing your > boat in the process. > > Allen > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in front > > and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his > > hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. > > > > I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. > > > > Randy > > Sent from my Samsung EpicT 4G > > > > > > > > > ai… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep > > yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I > > then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up > to. > > There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never > realized > > we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually > > heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat > > hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. > > I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer > > can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off > > their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. > > Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling > > "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? > > Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point > > higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can > tack > > to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course > yelled > > back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take > > evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his > actions. > > 1) he was an overtaking boat. > > 2) he was a windward boat > > In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat > > him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! > > > > Daniel Casey > > "AirTime" > > Cal 9.2R #75 > > Santa Barbara, Ca. > > > > In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > > my… [at] hotmail.com writes: > > > > > > > > and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in > > the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning > opportunity. > > Reggie > > > > ------------------------------ > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net > > From: ve… [at] yahoo.com > > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > > > Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a > > tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course > > you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or > > helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" > > and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision > is > > imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " > > Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. > > Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was > > acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. > > This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. > > When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. > > Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand > > the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . > > Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your > > competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not > tell > > the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by > > insisting that all follow the same rules. > > My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM > > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > > > > > > I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would > > do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto > > Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port > > tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. > > What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat > > claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or > ducked > > us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two > > boat lengths away. > > > > http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 > > > > By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the > second > > place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 > > (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all > > boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is > > 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. > > > > Allen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Works for me. On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 1:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > Allen. That gives me a good idea. Since US Sailing is constantly revising > racing rules to make them more fair, maybe it's about time the overtaking > boat can not sail above the overtaken boat's proper course? It would me > more than fair, especially when you consider that PHRF, for example, > handicaps each boat to give each a fair chance to win a race. Why should I > have to take gas every time a fin keel boat wants to out point and blow me > off the course:? > > What if the overtaken boat was a gaff rigged boat? A square rigged boat?? > It seems to me it would make a lot of sense. > Jerry > >

I heard someone yell starboard and saw someone wave their arms... I do feel that you are within your rights to protest, and you followed the rules by keeping clear to avoid an accident that was bound to happen, plus you captured it on tape! One thing I have learned, you can be right and still lose, such as getting smacked while on staboard tack. I thought you guys tacked nicely and hopefully gave them some dirty air! Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >Thanks George and everyone else. I appreciate the feedback. > >George, do watch the video. It is short and you can see the other boat >clearly. > >There is a rule that says I have the right of way (Rule 10) but another one >that says I should not get hit (Rule 14). In this situation where my boat >takes a lot longer to get out of the way then his boat would to not hit me, >I need to respect rule 14 before he needs to respect rule 10. I think that >in that case there is no way for me to win a protest so I said what I said >and let it go. > >If I could do the conversation over again, I would suggest that he needs to >make his intentions clear as to how he is going to avoid hitting me. I >thought there was a rule about that and I always make it clear to a boat >that has right of way over me what I am going to do by making >some exaggerated move or talk to the other skipper. However, I could not >find such a rule. > >Speaking of races. I was watching the TP-52s in Big Boat Series a couple >of years ago from the deck at the StFYC. There was a situation where two >boats were overlapped and the inside ahead boat was about to enter the >lunch room. They called for room and were told to "tack now", which they >did. Then the outside boat ducked them and tacked to windward of them, a >standard smart racing move. At this time these two boats were on port and >Samba Pa Ti comes along on Starboard right in front of them. Everyone >swerved and no boats were hit, nobody seemed upset. The crowd on the deck >broke into applause. > >I got into a conversation with an attractive woman, who was also watching >the race, about boats and how close they came and mentioned that in what >was the last Americas Cup race at the time that the US skipper had hit >another boat on purpose and that Ellison fired him because of it. She said >something I will never forget: "My husband never hit anyone on purpose" > > >Allen > >On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Elwers, George A. <ge… [at] saic.com >> wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> >> Allen, >> >> I haven't been able to watch the video, so I'm giving my opinion based on >> your original description and clarifications below. >> >> I've done a lot of racing in lots of different types of boats, from a >> wooden gaff rigged schooner to a Tornado catamaran, including racing Cals >> in SF Bay. >> >> I would have done what you did, which was the smart thing. You were >> uncomfortable and protected your boat in a situation where you could afford >> to not push your rights. That was the right decision. You chose not to >> protest, also the right decision, since I believe you would not have won >> the protest. Two boat lengths is plenty for him to have ducked you or >> tacked and you couldn't prove he wouldn't have done either, so the protest >> committee would have disallowed the protest. You also did the right thing >> talking to the other skipper afterwards. It's not a comfortable thing to >> approach the other skipper after an incident like that, and being conflict >> averse it's not something I enjoy, but I always do so and congratulate you >> on your actions. >> >> Good discussion! >> George >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com on behalf of Allen Edwards >> Sent: Wed 6/27/2012 10:45 AM >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? >> >> Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I >> will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with >> him concluded. >> >> 1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as >> fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and >> it was 85 feet. >> >> 2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no >> movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it >> closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready >> to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are >> going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that >> is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but >> stay as close to your max VMG. >> >> 3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For several >> reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster and we >> were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their racing >> ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the opinion >> at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they were >> doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return >> communication. >> >> 4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to >> a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the >> overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined >> by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim >> that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would >> be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to >> proper course. >> >> 5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it >> again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple >> feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the >> boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a >> collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat >> lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away >> with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor >> tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat >> lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means >> you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. >> >> 6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against >> a Port tack boat >> http://l-36.com/even.php >> >> [image: tiger2] >> [image: Inline image 1] >> >> The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to >> avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. >> But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth >> finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing your >> boat in the process. >> >> Allen >> >> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > ** >> >> > >> > >> > Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in front >> > and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his >> > hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. >> > >> > I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. >> > >> > Randy >> > Sent from my Samsung EpicT 4G >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ai… [at] aol.com wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep >> > yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I >> > then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up >> to. >> > There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never >> realized >> > we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually >> > heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat >> > hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. >> > I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer >> > can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off >> > their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. >> > Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling >> > "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? >> > Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point >> > higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can >> tack >> > to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course >> yelled >> > back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take >> > evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his >> actions. >> > 1) he was an overtaking boat. >> > 2) he was a windward boat >> > In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat >> > him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! >> > >> > Daniel Casey >> > "AirTime" >> > Cal 9.2R #75 >> > Santa Barbara, Ca. >> > >> > In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, >> > my… [at] hotmail.com writes: >> > >> > >> > >> > and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in >> > the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning >> opportunity. >> > Reggie >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> >> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> > CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net >> > From: ve… [at] yahoo.com >> > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 >> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? >> > >> > >> > Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a >> > tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course >> > you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or >> > helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" >> > and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision >> is >> > imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " >> > Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. >> > Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was >> > acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. >> > This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. >> > When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. >> > Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand >> > the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . >> > Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your >> > competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not >> tell >> > the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by >> > insisting that all follow the same rules. >> > My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >> > >> > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM >> > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] What would you do? >> >> > >> > >> > >> > I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would >> > do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto >> > Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port >> > tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. >> > What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat >> > claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or >> ducked >> > us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two >> > boat lengths away. >> > >> > http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 >> > >> > By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the >> second >> > place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 >> > (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all >> > boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is >> > 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. >> > >> > Allen >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>

Tim, I was just reading about the U.S. Navy's notorious Mk 14 torpedo, known as 'ol reliable' (to be a dud) whose defects weren't remedied until 1944, where upon it proved so reliable it was in use for the next thirty years. Seems it was a brilliant design made in the early 1930's, but unfortunately, because it was the Depression, the pencil pushers thought they were being brilliant by not bothering to test out a single torpedo with live explosives until the war started. A sad story. It's all in Wikipedia. The Japanese had the best torpedo, with liquid oxygen oxidizer, which turned out to be its Achilles heel. The Mk 14 weighs in at 3200 lb (more than Shpritz) and is over twenty feet long, so I think I'll have to just stick to using my six pounder swivel gun..DRAT! Jerry From: Timm <ti… [at] danishmarineco.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:12 PM Subject: Re: New Racing rule! was.Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Allen, you need to install one of these on your bow, Guarantee you'll not let anyone finish in front of you, ever again On Jun 27, 2012, at 8:04 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: Works for me. On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 1:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > >Allen. That gives me a good idea. Since US Sailing is constantly revising racing rules to make them more fair, maybe it's about time the overtaking boat can not sail above the overtaken boat's proper course? It would me more than fair, especially when you consider that PHRF, for example, handicaps each boat to give each a fair chance to win a race. Why should I have to take gas every time a fin keel boat wants to out point and blow me off the course:? > > > >What if the overtaken boat was a gaff rigged boat? A square rigged boat?? It seems to me it would make a lot of sense. > >Jerry > > >

Allen, you need to install one of these on your bow, Guarantee you'll not let anyone finish in front of you, ever again On Jun 27, 2012, at 8:04 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: Works for me. On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 1:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Allen. That gives me a good idea. Since US Sailing is constantly revising racing rules to make them more fair, maybe it's about time the overtaking boat can not sail above the overtaken boat's proper course? It would me more than fair, especially when you consider that PHRF, for example, handicaps each boat to give each a fair chance to win a race. Why should I have to take gas every time a fin keel boat wants to out point and blow me off the course:? What if the overtaken boat was a gaff rigged boat? A square rigged boat?? It seems to me it would make a lot of sense. Jerry

I have been looking through my rule book and can not find any mention of luffing rights, has this been deleted? Mark Cal 2-29 (looking for steering quadrant at rudder post) ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Edwards To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Thanks George and everyone else. I appreciate the feedback. George, do watch the video. It is short and you can see the other boat clearly. There is a rule that says I have the right of way (Rule 10) but another one that says I should not get hit (Rule 14). In this situation where my boat takes a lot longer to get out of the way then his boat would to not hit me, I need to respect rule 14 before he needs to respect rule 10. I think that in that case there is no way for me to win a protest so I said what I said and let it go. If I could do the conversation over again, I would suggest that he needs to make his intentions clear as to how he is going to avoid hitting me. I thought there was a rule about that and I always make it clear to a boat that has right of way over me what I am going to do by making some exaggerated move or talk to the other skipper. However, I could not find such a rule. Speaking of races. I was watching the TP-52s in Big Boat Series a couple of years ago from the deck at the StFYC. There was a situation where two boats were overlapped and the inside ahead boat was about to enter the lunch room. They called for room and were told to "tack now", which they did. Then the outside boat ducked them and tacked to windward of them, a standard smart racing move. At this time these two boats were on port and Samba Pa Ti comes along on Starboard right in front of them. Everyone swerved and no boats were hit, nobody seemed upset. The crowd on the deck broke into applause. I got into a conversation with an attractive woman, who was also watching the race, about boats and how close they came and mentioned that in what was the last Americas Cup race at the time that the US skipper had hit another boat on purpose and that Ellison fired him because of it. She said something I will never forget: "My husband never hit anyone on purpose" Allen On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Elwers, George A. <ge… [at] saic.com> wrote: Allen, I haven't been able to watch the video, so I'm giving my opinion based on your original description and clarifications below. I've done a lot of racing in lots of different types of boats, from a wooden gaff rigged schooner to a Tornado catamaran, including racing Cals in SF Bay. I would have done what you did, which was the smart thing. You were uncomfortable and protected your boat in a situation where you could afford to not push your rights. That was the right decision. You chose not to protest, also the right decision, since I believe you would not have won the protest. Two boat lengths is plenty for him to have ducked you or tacked and you couldn't prove he wouldn't have done either, so the protest committee would have disallowed the protest. You also did the right thing talking to the other skipper afterwards. It's not a comfortable thing to approach the other skipper after an incident like that, and being conflict averse it's not something I enjoy, but I always do so and congratulate you on your actions. Good discussion! George -----Original Message----- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com on behalf of Allen Edwards Sent: Wed 6/27/2012 10:45 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with him concluded. 1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and it was 85 feet. 2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but stay as close to your max VMG. 3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For several reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster and we were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their racing ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the opinion at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they were doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return communication. 4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to proper course. 5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. 6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against a Port tack boat http://l-36.com/even.php [image: tiger2] [image: Inline image 1] The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing your boat in the process. Allen On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in front > and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his > hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. > > I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. > > Randy > Sent from my Samsung EpicT 4G > > > > ai… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > > In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep > yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I > then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up to. > There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never realized > we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually > heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat > hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. > I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer > can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off > their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. > Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling > "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? > Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point > higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can tack > to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course yelled > back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take > evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his actions. > 1) he was an overtaking boat. > 2) he was a windward boat > In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat > him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! > > Daniel Casey > "AirTime" > Cal 9.2R #75 > Santa Barbara, Ca. > > In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > my… [at] hotmail.com writes: > > > > and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in > the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning opportunity. > Reggie > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net > From: ve… [at] yahoo.com > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a > tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course > you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or > helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" > and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision is > imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " > Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. > Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was > acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. > This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. > When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. > Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand > the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . > Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your > competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not tell > the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by > insisting that all follow the same rules. > My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would > do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto > Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port > tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. > What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat > claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked > us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two > boat lengths away. > > http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 > > By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second > place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 > (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all > boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is > 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. > > Allen > > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7252 (20120627) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7255 (20120628) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

I think "luffing rights" are covered by rule 11 as restricted by rule 17, 18, and 19. In other words, you can luff a boat unless you overtook it or need to give it room at a mark or obstruction. If you want to see what changed, here is a marked up copy of the rules showing the changes http://l-36.com/read_pdf.php?file=/Race/RRS200920092012SHOWINGCHANGES-[6255]&title=The%20racing%20Rules%20of%20Sailing%20Changes Allen On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) < ma… [at] cox.net> wrote: > ** > > > ** > I have been looking through my rule book and can not find any mention of > luffing rights, has this been deleted? > Mark > Cal 2-29 (looking for steering quadrant at rudder post) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:53 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > Thanks George and everyone else. I appreciate the feedback. > > George, do watch the video. It is short and you can see the other boat > clearly. > > There is a rule that says I have the right of way (Rule 10) but another > one that says I should not get hit (Rule 14). In this situation where my > boat takes a lot longer to get out of the way then his boat would to not > hit me, I need to respect rule 14 before he needs to respect rule 10. I > think that in that case there is no way for me to win a protest so I said > what I said and let it go. > > If I could do the conversation over again, I would suggest that he needs > to make his intentions clear as to how he is going to avoid hitting me. I > thought there was a rule about that and I always make it clear to a boat > that has right of way over me what I am going to do by making > some exaggerated move or talk to the other skipper. However, I could not > find such a rule. > > Speaking of races. I was watching the TP-52s in Big Boat Series a couple > of years ago from the deck at the StFYC. There was a situation where two > boats were overlapped and the inside ahead boat was about to enter the > lunch room. They called for room and were told to "tack now", which they > did. Then the outside boat ducked them and tacked to windward of them, a > standard smart racing move. At this time these two boats were on port and > Samba Pa Ti comes along on Starboard right in front of them. Everyone > swerved and no boats were hit, nobody seemed upset. The crowd on the deck > broke into applause. > > I got into a conversation with an attractive woman, who was also watching > the race, about boats and how close they came and mentioned that in what > was the last Americas Cup race at the time that the US skipper had hit > another boat on purpose and that Ellison fired him because of it. She said > something I will never forget: "My husband never hit anyone on purpose" > > > Allen > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Elwers, George A. < > ge… [at] saic.com> wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> >> Allen, >> >> I haven't been able to watch the video, so I'm giving my opinion based on >> your original description and clarifications below. >> >> I've done a lot of racing in lots of different types of boats, from a >> wooden gaff rigged schooner to a Tornado catamaran, including racing Cals >> in SF Bay. >> >> I would have done what you did, which was the smart thing. You were >> uncomfortable and protected your boat in a situation where you could afford >> to not push your rights. That was the right decision. You chose not to >> protest, also the right decision, since I believe you would not have won >> the protest. Two boat lengths is plenty for him to have ducked you or >> tacked and you couldn't prove he wouldn't have done either, so the protest >> committee would have disallowed the protest. You also did the right thing >> talking to the other skipper afterwards. It's not a comfortable thing to >> approach the other skipper after an incident like that, and being conflict >> averse it's not something I enjoy, but I always do so and congratulate you >> on your actions. >> >> Good discussion! >> George >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com on behalf of Allen Edwards >> Sent: Wed 6/27/2012 10:45 AM >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? >> >> Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I >> will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with >> him concluded. >> >> 1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as >> fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and >> it was 85 feet. >> >> 2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no >> movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it >> closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready >> to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are >> going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that >> is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but >> stay as close to your max VMG. >> >> 3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For several >> reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster and we >> were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their racing >> ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the opinion >> at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they were >> doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return >> communication. >> >> 4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to >> a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the >> overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined >> by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim >> that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would >> be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to >> proper course. >> >> 5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it >> again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple >> feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the >> boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a >> collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat >> lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away >> with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor >> tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat >> lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means >> you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. >> >> 6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against >> a Port tack boat >> http://l-36.com/even.php >> >> [image: tiger2] >> [image: Inline image 1] >> >> The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to >> avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. >> But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth >> finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing >> your >> boat in the process. >> >> Allen >> >> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> > ** >> >> > >> > >> > Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in >> front >> > and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his >> > hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. >> > >> > I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested >> anyone. >> > >> > Randy >> > Sent from my Samsung EpicT 4G >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ai… [at] aol.com wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep >> > yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I >> > then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up >> to. >> > There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never >> realized >> > we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually >> > heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat >> > hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. >> > I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer >> > can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off >> > their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. >> > Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling >> > "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? >> > Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could >> point >> > higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can >> tack >> > to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course >> yelled >> > back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take >> > evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his >> actions. >> > 1) he was an overtaking boat. >> > 2) he was a windward boat >> > In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we >> beat >> > him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! >> > >> > Daniel Casey >> > "AirTime" >> > Cal 9.2R #75 >> > Santa Barbara, Ca. >> > >> > In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, >> > my… [at] hotmail.com writes: >> > >> > >> > >> > and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope >> in >> > the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning >> opportunity. >> > Reggie >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> >> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> > CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net >> > From: ve… [at] yahoo.com >> > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 >> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? >> > >> > >> > Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a >> > tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course >> > you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or >> > helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" >> > and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that >> collision is >> > imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " >> > Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. >> > Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was >> > acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. >> > This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. >> > When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the >> rules. >> > Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand >> > the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . >> > Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your >> > competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not >> tell >> > the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing >> by >> > insisting that all follow the same rules. >> > My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >> > >> > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM >> > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] What would you do? >> >> > >> > >> > >> > I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would >> > do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked >> onto >> > Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a >> port >> > tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. >> > What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat >> > claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or >> ducked >> > us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two >> > boat lengths away. >> > >> > http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 >> > >> > By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the >> second >> > place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 >> > (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats >> all >> > boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap >> is >> > 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. >> > >> > Allen >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 7252 (20120627) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 7255 (20120628) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > >

Thanks Allen, rule 11 was it....Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Edwards To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? (luffing rights) I think "luffing rights" are covered by rule 11 as restricted by rule 17, 18, and 19. In other words, you can luff a boat unless you overtook it or need to give it room at a mark or obstruction. If you want to see what changed, here is a marked up copy of the rules showing the changes http://l-36.com/read_pdf.php?file=/Race/RRS200920092012SHOWINGCHANGES-[6255]&title=The%20racing%20Rules%20of%20Sailing%20Changes Allen On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) <ma… [at] cox.net> wrote: I have been looking through my rule book and can not find any mention of luffing rights, has this been deleted? Mark Cal 2-29 (looking for steering quadrant at rudder post) ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Edwards To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Thanks George and everyone else. I appreciate the feedback. George, do watch the video. It is short and you can see the other boat clearly. There is a rule that says I have the right of way (Rule 10) but another one that says I should not get hit (Rule 14). In this situation where my boat takes a lot longer to get out of the way then his boat would to not hit me, I need to respect rule 14 before he needs to respect rule 10. I think that in that case there is no way for me to win a protest so I said what I said and let it go. If I could do the conversation over again, I would suggest that he needs to make his intentions clear as to how he is going to avoid hitting me. I thought there was a rule about that and I always make it clear to a boat that has right of way over me what I am going to do by making some exaggerated move or talk to the other skipper. However, I could not find such a rule. Speaking of races. I was watching the TP-52s in Big Boat Series a couple of years ago from the deck at the StFYC. There was a situation where two boats were overlapped and the inside ahead boat was about to enter the lunch room. They called for room and were told to "tack now", which they did. Then the outside boat ducked them and tacked to windward of them, a standard smart racing move. At this time these two boats were on port and Samba Pa Ti comes along on Starboard right in front of them. Everyone swerved and no boats were hit, nobody seemed upset. The crowd on the deck broke into applause. I got into a conversation with an attractive woman, who was also watching the race, about boats and how close they came and mentioned that in what was the last Americas Cup race at the time that the US skipper had hit another boat on purpose and that Ellison fired him because of it. She said something I will never forget: "My husband never hit anyone on purpose" Allen On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Elwers, George A. <ge… [at] saic.com> wrote: Allen, I haven't been able to watch the video, so I'm giving my opinion based on your original description and clarifications below. I've done a lot of racing in lots of different types of boats, from a wooden gaff rigged schooner to a Tornado catamaran, including racing Cals in SF Bay. I would have done what you did, which was the smart thing. You were uncomfortable and protected your boat in a situation where you could afford to not push your rights. That was the right decision. You chose not to protest, also the right decision, since I believe you would not have won the protest. Two boat lengths is plenty for him to have ducked you or tacked and you couldn't prove he wouldn't have done either, so the protest committee would have disallowed the protest. You also did the right thing talking to the other skipper afterwards. It's not a comfortable thing to approach the other skipper after an incident like that, and being conflict averse it's not something I enjoy, but I always do so and congratulate you on your actions. Good discussion! George -----Original Message----- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com on behalf of Allen Edwards Sent: Wed 6/27/2012 10:45 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with him concluded. 1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and it was 85 feet. 2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but stay as close to your max VMG. 3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For several reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster and we were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their racing ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the opinion at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they were doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return communication. 4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to proper course. 5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. 6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against a Port tack boat http://l-36.com/even.php [image: tiger2] [image: Inline image 1] The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing your boat in the process. Allen On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in front > and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his > hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. > > I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. > > Randy > Sent from my Samsung EpicT 4G > > > > ai… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > > In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep > yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I > then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up to. > There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never realized > we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually > heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat > hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. > I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer > can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off > their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. > Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling > "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? > Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point > higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can tack > to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course yelled > back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take > evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his actions. > 1) he was an overtaking boat. > 2) he was a windward boat > In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat > him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! > > Daniel Casey > "AirTime" > Cal 9.2R #75 > Santa Barbara, Ca. > > In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > my… [at] hotmail.com writes: > > > > and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in > the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning opportunity. > Reggie > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net > From: ve… [at] yahoo.com > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a > tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course > you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or > helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" > and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision is > imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " > Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. > Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was > acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. > This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. > When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. > Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand > the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . > Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your > competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not tell > the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by > insisting that all follow the same rules. > My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would > do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto > Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port > tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. > What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat > claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked > us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two > boat lengths away. > > http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 > > By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second > place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 > (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all > boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is > 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. > > Allen > > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7252 (20120627) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7255 (20120628) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7255 (20120628) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7255 (20120628) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

I watched the video. When I replied last I was on a ship in the East China Sea with vey limited connectivity and couldn't watch it. It didn't change my opinion, although I did see that you had tacked onto starboard not long before, so that would've added to the chance that he didn't see you. I still would have done everything just as you did, including second guessing myself and asking for others' opinions! Thanks for making it a learning experience for all of us. George From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com on behalf of Allen Edwards Sent: Wed 6/27/2012 7:53 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Thanks George and everyone else. I appreciate the feedback. George, do watch the video. It is short and you can see the other boat clearly. There is a rule that says I have the right of way (Rule 10) but another one that says I should not get hit (Rule 14). In this situation where my boat takes a lot longer to get out of the way then his boat would to not hit me, I need to respect rule 14 before he needs to respect rule 10. I think that in that case there is no way for me to win a protest so I said what I said and let it go. If I could do the conversation over again, I would suggest that he needs to make his intentions clear as to how he is going to avoid hitting me. I thought there was a rule about that and I always make it clear to a boat that has right of way over me what I am going to do by making some exaggerated move or talk to the other skipper. However, I could not find such a rule. Speaking of races. I was watching the TP-52s in Big Boat Series a couple of years ago from the deck at the StFYC. There was a situation where two boats were overlapped and the inside ahead boat was about to enter the lunch room. They called for room and were told to "tack now", which they did. Then the outside boat ducked them and tacked to windward of them, a standard smart racing move. At this time these two boats were on port and Samba Pa Ti comes along on Starboard right in front of them. Everyone swerved and no boats were hit, nobody seemed upset. The crowd on the deck broke into applause. I got into a conversation with an attractive woman, who was also watching the race, about boats and how close they came and mentioned that in what was the last Americas Cup race at the time that the US skipper had hit another boat on purpose and that Ellison fired him because of it. She said something I will never forget: "My husband never hit anyone on purpose" Allen On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Elwers, George A. <ge… [at] saic.com> wrote: Allen, I haven't been able to watch the video, so I'm giving my opinion based on your original description and clarifications below. I've done a lot of racing in lots of different types of boats, from a wooden gaff rigged schooner to a Tornado catamaran, including racing Cals in SF Bay. I would have done what you did, which was the smart thing. You were uncomfortable and protected your boat in a situation where you could afford to not push your rights. That was the right decision. You chose not to protest, also the right decision, since I believe you would not have won the protest. Two boat lengths is plenty for him to have ducked you or tacked and you couldn't prove he wouldn't have done either, so the protest committee would have disallowed the protest. You also did the right thing talking to the other skipper afterwards. It's not a comfortable thing to approach the other skipper after an incident like that, and being conflict averse it's not something I enjoy, but I always do so and congratulate you on your actions. Good discussion! George -----Original Message----- From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Allen Edwards Sent: Wed 6/27/2012 10:45 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with him concluded. 1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and it was 85 feet. 2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but stay as close to your max VMG. 3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For several reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster and we were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their racing ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the opinion at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they were doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return communication. 4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to proper course. 5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. 6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against a Port tack boat http://l-36.com/even.php [image: tiger2] [image: Inline image 1] The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing your boat in the process. Allen On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com <mailto:saylorran%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > ** > > > Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in front > and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his > hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. > > I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. > > Randy > Sent from my Samsung EpicT 4G > > > > ai… [at] aol.com <mailto:airtimeskipper%40aol.com> wrote: > > > > > In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep > yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I > then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up to. > There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never realized > we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually > heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat > hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. > I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer > can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off > their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. > Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling > "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? > Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point > higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can tack > to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course yelled > back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take > evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his actions. > 1) he was an overtaking boat. > 2) he was a windward boat > In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat > him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! > > Daniel Casey > "AirTime" > Cal 9.2R #75 > Santa Barbara, Ca. > > In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > my… [at] hotmail.com <mailto:my1972ih%40hotmail.com> writes: > > > > and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in > the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning opportunity. > Reggie > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> > CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net <mailto:mberline%40sbcglobal.net> > From: ve… [at] yahoo.com <mailto:vectormenow%40yahoo.com> > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a > tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course > you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or > helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" > and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision is > imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " > Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. > Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was > acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. > This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. > When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. > Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand > the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . > Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your > competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not tell > the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by > insisting that all follow the same rules. > My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com <mailto:allen.p.edwards%40gmail.com> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would > do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto > Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port > tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. > What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat > claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or ducked > us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two > boat lengths away. > > http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 > > By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the second > place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 > (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all > boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is > 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. > > Allen > > > > > > > > >

Thanks George, Yes, we waited a bit before tacking onto starboard as we thought they would tack first as we were both past the layline. They didn't and we decided tacking on to starboard would leave them enough time to respond so we tacked. There was not a lot of time but they should have expected us to tack given our position relative to the finish marker. An aside, we ended up sailing toward the finish line more or less on an extension of the line. We then tack around the nearest marker as our way of making sure we cross it. That way there is no guessing where the line is as the other end is way ashore where they have a telescope aimed at the mark we round. Allen On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 1:42 AM, Elwers, George A. <ge… [at] saic.com > wrote: > ** > > > I watched the video. When I replied last I was on a ship in the East China > Sea with vey limited connectivity and couldn't watch it. > > It didn't change my opinion, although I did see that you had tacked onto > starboard not long before, so that would've added to the chance that he > didn't see you. I still would have done everything just as you did, > including second guessing myself and asking for others' opinions! > > Thanks for making it a learning experience for all of us. > > George > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com on behalf of Allen Edwards > Sent: Wed 6/27/2012 7:53 PM > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > Thanks George and everyone else. I appreciate the feedback. > > George, do watch the video. It is short and you can see the other boat > clearly. > > There is a rule that says I have the right of way (Rule 10) but another > one that says I should not get hit (Rule 14). In this situation where my > boat takes a lot longer to get out of the way then his boat would to not > hit me, I need to respect rule 14 before he needs to respect rule 10. I > think that in that case there is no way for me to win a protest so I said > what I said and let it go. > > If I could do the conversation over again, I would suggest that he needs > to make his intentions clear as to how he is going to avoid hitting me. I > thought there was a rule about that and I always make it clear to a boat > that has right of way over me what I am going to do by making some > exaggerated move or talk to the other skipper. However, I could not find > such a rule. > > Speaking of races. I was watching the TP-52s in Big Boat Series a couple > of years ago from the deck at the StFYC. There was a situation where two > boats were overlapped and the inside ahead boat was about to enter the > lunch room. They called for room and were told to "tack now", which they > did. Then the outside boat ducked them and tacked to windward of them, a > standard smart racing move. At this time these two boats were on port and > Samba Pa Ti comes along on Starboard right in front of them. Everyone > swerved and no boats were hit, nobody seemed upset. The crowd on the deck > broke into applause. > > I got into a conversation with an attractive woman, who was also watching > the race, about boats and how close they came and mentioned that in what > was the last Americas Cup race at the time that the US skipper had hit > another boat on purpose and that Ellison fired him because of it. She said > something I will never forget: "My husband never hit anyone on purpose" > > Allen > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Elwers, George A. < > ge… [at] saic.com> wrote: > > > > > > Allen, > > I haven't been able to watch the video, so I'm giving my opinion based on > your original description and clarifications below. > > I've done a lot of racing in lots of different types of boats, from a > wooden gaff rigged schooner to a Tornado catamaran, including racing Cals > in SF Bay. > > I would have done what you did, which was the smart thing. You were > uncomfortable and protected your boat in a situation where you could afford > to not push your rights. That was the right decision. You chose not to > protest, also the right decision, since I believe you would not have won > the protest. Two boat lengths is plenty for him to have ducked you or > tacked and you couldn't prove he wouldn't have done either, so the protest > committee would have disallowed the protest. You also did the right thing > talking to the other skipper afterwards. It's not a comfortable thing to > approach the other skipper after an incident like that, and being conflict > averse it's not something I enjoy, but I always do so and congratulate you > on your actions. > > Good discussion! > George > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> on > behalf of Allen Edwards > Sent: Wed 6/27/2012 10:45 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > Thanks everyone for the replies. There were some questions raised and I > will try and answer them. At the end I will share how my discussion with > him concluded. > > 1) I have a Lapworth-36 which is pre-Cal. It is wood and does not turn as > fast as all your boats. I measured a complete U turn using a GPS track and > it was 85 feet. > > 2) I yelled Starboard and my tactician waved his arms around. We saw no > movement by any of the crew on the other boat. Maybe I should have cut it > closer but it looked to me like they were not doing anything to get ready > to tack and were not bearing off to take our stern. In my mind, if you are > going to take a stern, you start your move as soon as you can because that > is the fastest course from a polar standpoint. Just miss the stern but > stay as close to your max VMG. > > 3) We had crosses with them several times during the last leg. For several > reasons, including that they were rated 38 seconds per mile faster and we > were sailing the same speed made me less than impressed with their racing > ability. It was not a boat I had experience with and I was of the opinion > at the time I tacked to avoid them that they didn't know what they were > doing. I didn't even know if they saw us as there was no return > communication. > > 4) Not relevant to this situation but the rule of proper course applies to > a boat that overtakes another boat to gain an overlap. In that case, the > overtaking boat can not head the other boat high. Proper course is defined > by the properties of the boat so a boat that cannot sail high can claim > that they are on their proper course even though your proper course would > be higher. But if they are the overtaking boat, they have no claim to > proper course. > > 5) The smallest boat I have raced in was a V-17 and I will never do it > again :-) I have, on the other hand, passed boats sterns by just a couple > feet and have had boats do the same to me. Communications between the > boats is the key. Also, if you are ducking someone, you are not on a > collision course and they can see that. Starting a duck from 2 boat > lengths away is not a smart move. It is slow. Being 2 boat lengths away > with crew on the rail when your intention is to tack makes for a very poor > tack like the one we did which you can see wan't pretty. Being 2 boat > lengths away and not knowing if you are going to tack or duck to me means > you don't know you are on a bow to bow collision course. > > 6) Here is what happens when an L-36 on Starboard holds its course against > a Port tack boat > http://l-36.com/even.php > > [image: tiger2] > [image: Inline image 1] > > The bottom line is that I accepted his explanation that he was going to > avoid us and that we tacked needlessly, that I should have held my course. > But I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. It isn't worth > finding out if some random boat knows what they are doing and crashing your > boat in the process. > > Allen > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Randy <sa… [at] yahoo.com <mailto: > saylorran%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > ** > > > > > > > Our Wet Wednesday protest are heard before your peers. You stand in front > > and state your buisness in front of all the racers. The judge holds his > > hand above their head and you get thumbs up or booed off. > > > > I can't tell you how long it has been since someone has protested anyone. > > > > Randy > > > Sent from my Samsung EpicT 4G > > > > > > > > > ai… [at] aol.com <mailto:airtimeskipper%40aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In that situation, the first thing I do is hail "Starboard" and keep > > yelling starboard until I see acknowledgement from the other skipper. I > > then keep my eye on him to make sure we understand what the other is up > to. > > There have been numerous occasions where the port tack boat never > realized > > we were there. I have never had a scenario where we were not eventually > > heard. Of course in 25-30 knots of wind I do not rely on the other boat > > hearing me and do what is necessary to make sure we don't collide. > > I also agree with Reggie, even though protesting is frowned upon in beer > > can racing, every now and then you need to bring someone down off > > their high horse when they continue to ignore Corinthian behavior. > > Do I remember correctly that if you do not invoke your rights by yelling > > "Starboard" that you can lose a protest? > > Last week I had an overtaking trimaran force me down. Since I could point > > higher I was yelling "Bring it up" (I wanted him to tack off so I can > tack > > to the mark layline) and he yelled back "Proper Course". I of course > yelled > > back at him I was the leeward boat and he still disagreed. I had to take > > evasive action to avoid hitting him. I was truly dumbfounded in his > actions. > > 1) he was an overtaking boat. > > 2) he was a windward boat > > In the end we made a better tactical decision near the finish and we beat > > him boat for boat. That kinda made it all better! > > > > Daniel Casey > > "AirTime" > > Cal 9.2R #75 > > Santa Barbara, Ca. > > > > In a message dated 6/27/2012 7:58:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > > my… [at] hotmail.com <mailto:my1972ih%40hotmail.com> writes: > > > > > > > > and, if you protest them, they may be less likely to push the envelope in > > the future, even if they win. Besides, a protest is a learning > opportunity. > > Reggie > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> > > CC: mb… [at] sbcglobal.net <mailto:mberline%40sbcglobal.net> > > From: ve… [at] yahoo.com <mailto:vectormenow%40yahoo.com> > > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 05:53:15 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > > > Timing is the issue, A boat tacking must keep clear of a boat on a > > tack. If you have completed your tack and are sailing your proper course > > you should hail the PT boat, the hail should come from the skipper or > > helmsman not the tactitian. The PT boat must respond "Hold your course" > > and either tack away or bear away. If it is your judgment that collision > is > > imminent take action and notify The other yacht "I am protesting you " > > Show a red flag from your backstay. Use the vhf radio to notify the RC. > > Note the time of the incident and the time your radio call to RC was > > acknowledged. File the protest within the time limit. > > This whole notion that "Beer Can" racing is "Fun" racing is nonsense. > > When others accept the invitation to race they agree to follow the rules. > > Race officials don't want to hear protests because few really understand > > the rules. Your safety and property was put at risk . > > Next time protest, you may not win the protest because your > > competitor's story may be at odds with the facts( People often do not > tell > > the truth) but you will have the satisfaction of doing the right thing by > > insisting that all follow the same rules. > > My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > > > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com <mailto: > allen.p.edwards%40gmail.com> > > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> > > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:10 AM > > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] What would you do? > > > > > > > > > I think that is the title of a TV show but I am wondering what you would > > do in the situation I had near the end of the race tonight. I tacked onto > > Starboard at the layline and put myself on a collision course with a port > > tack boat, a Catalina 400. I tacked onto Port to avoid hitting them. > > What would you have done? Should I have held my course? The other boat > > claimed they would not have hit us, they would have tacked on us or > ducked > > us. They didn't understand why I would tack when we were still two > > boat lengths away. > > > > http://youtu.be/eRHV4bljoW8 > > > > By the way, we won the race, about 2 minutes corrected ahead of the > second > > place boat and the second boat across the line. We beat the Catalina 400 > > (102), a Newport-41 (114), the Tartan-10 (126) and some smaller boats all > > boat for boat. Only the C&C-41(72) beat us boat for boat. Our handicap is > > 150. Lapworth was a very good designer, imho. > > > > Allen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Well, what do you know. I was just told that the skipper of the boat I tacked to avoid a couple of weeks ago just t-boned another boat on Saturday. He was under power at the time and hit a boat under sail. Now how does that happen? It does make me feel better about tacking early rather than asserting my right of way during the race. Allen

Holy crap!! Apparently he needs a glass belly button so he can see where he's going with his head up his ass!! Good job Allen, much better safe than sorry. Paul

There is justice in the world, It's too bad for the boat he hit. So much for his judgment, maybe his depth preception was a bit off. From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? Well, what do you know. I was just told that the skipper of the boat I tacked to avoid a couple of weeks ago just t-boned another boat on Saturday. He was under power at the time and hit a boat under sail. Now how does that happen? It does make me feel better about tacking early rather than asserting my right of way during the race. Allen

On 7/9/2012 2:51 AM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > > Well, what do you know. I was just told that the skipper of the boat > I tacked to avoid a couple of weeks ago just t-boned another boat on > Saturday. He was under power at the time and hit a boat under sail. > Now how does that happen? It does make me feel better about tacking > early rather than asserting my right of way during the race. You're right. We know that human behavior is not uniform. There's a range of behavior, with really odd stuff out there on the extremes. One of the skills we learn as children is detecting odd behavior, ways of acting that aren't just a little bit unusual, but really pathological. Sounds like your instinctive decision was exactly the right one, because this guy seems to have crossed the line to pathological. And yes, even guys who can afford big boats can be pathological. Chris Campbell > >

In a message dated 7/9/2012 9:50:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cc… [at] lsnm.org writes: And yes, even guys who can afford big boats can be pathological yes, some of them think money buys knowledge. That said, as careful as I am, I was in fairly windy race one time when a boat appeared "out of nowhere" to my dismay. We were close, not collision close, but close enough to be a real WTF moment as I was on port and he was on stbd. I still don't know how did I missed that. Really sticks with you. Paul

Some years back, we had a boat entered in my sailing club's races that seriously t-boned other boats two years in a row on the same event. In both cases, his response was nebulous as to what he was doing at that time right before starts - went below for some reason or some such. Strange fellow. I had the "pleasure" of sending the letter disinviting him from any future events by our clubs. In both cases, there were over 100 boats in the starting area, so attention was a must. Some peoples' minds do not appear to be attuned to the environment they are in a given moment. I call it "social awareness". No, he was not drunk. Thanks Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 9:50 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? On 7/9/2012 2:51 AM, Allen Edwards wrote: Well, what do you know. I was just told that the skipper of the boat I tacked to avoid a couple of weeks ago just t-boned another boat on Saturday. He was under power at the time and hit a boat under sail. Now how does that happen? It does make me feel better about tacking early rather than asserting my right of way during the race. You're right. We know that human behavior is not uniform. There's a range of behavior, with really odd stuff out there on the extremes. One of the skills we learn as children is detecting odd behavior, ways of acting that aren't just a little bit unusual, but really pathological. Sounds like your instinctive decision was exactly the right one, because this guy seems to have crossed the line to pathological. And yes, even guys who can afford big boats can be pathological. Chris Campbell

Regardless of ballast and deck apes hanging off the lifelines in distorted poses, I always have a watch below, and always keep asking (continuously) if we are OK. It does take a while for the watch people to learn what boats present a problem (constant bearing, closing range). If there is any smell of a problem, I duck down myself to call us through. Assuming I am on the tack I'm on for a reason, I would usually duck instead of tacking. On the CAL 25 (and I assume many other CALs), it is necessary to ease the main to fall down (and even the jib if it is blowing). You can pull the stick to your chest and the boat will not alter course unless sail is eased. I always remind the main trimmer that this is necessary. Take NOTHING for granted. Command goes: Charlie: "Ease the main." Crew: (silence - no action) Charlie: "Ease the main." Crew: "Whaaat...." Charlie: "EASE THE MAIN !!!" Crew: "WHY ARE YOU YELLING?" Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 9:57 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] What would you do? In a message dated 7/9/2012 9:50:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cc… [at] lsnm.org writes: And yes, even guys who can afford big boats can be pathological yes, some of them think money buys knowledge. That said, as careful as I am, I was in fairly windy race one time when a boat appeared "out of nowhere" to my dismay. We were close, not collision close, but close enough to be a real WTF moment as I was on port and he was on stbd. I still don't know how did I missed that. Really sticks with you. Paul