Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? (Wilkie)

J-24s, for some reason, are particularly heavy on Alpha Hotels. We have the same problem here. Thank God that fleet is shrinking. You will find CAL 25s to be a much more friendly form of one design. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Owen Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 1:25 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? The offending Sprit boat was indeed within two of his boat lengths when he overlapped me, so he was required to sail his proper course until he cleared me. Unfortunately, since he is allowed to sail his proper course with an asymmetrical Spinnaker on a long sprit, he can indeed take me up until my full spinnaker (pole eased to the head stay already) collapses, as indeed it did. Seems unfair that I have to keep a watch astern and suspend my race tactics for a boat moving twice my speed with twice the mobility to maneuver. It doesn't help that the one design skippers generally display arrogance towards the more casual boats (which easily comprise a vast majority of the participation) to the point that they are practicing spinnaker hoists and maneuvers right in the middle of our start. I had an Alpha Hotel on a j-24 call starboard on me when I was trying to get a few more boat lengths on port to lay the first mark with one tack just a few hundred yards up-course from our start. He forced me to not only make an extra tack, but to miss the lane i had open theough our well-charted seaweed patch. Thanks all for the responses. Wilkie , . On Aug 17, 2012, at 9:50 AM, "Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE)" <hu… [at] bah.com<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com>> wrote: Paul, the rules are becoming more and more nebulous, but I was wrong about the 3 boat lengths. Rule 17 If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear. Rule 17 seems to say that if the leeward and overtaking boat can sail her proper course at any time, and you need to move. That couse would have had to have been established prior to the close passing. However, it also says that a boat overtaking within 2 boat lengths cannot go above proper course (luff you up) until she has cleared forward to break the overlap. However, if the boat falls to more than 2 boat lengths alee, than she can do anything she damn well pleases, but then coming up would bring her to within 2 boat lengths, and on and on. Remember the good old days of “mast abeam”. I think the rules these days are written for multi-race W-L one design regattas. One can’t even find a clean definition and use of DNC and DNS. I do scoring for Cruising One Designs in CBYRA, so this is important to me. I do my own interpretation these days, since I can’t get a straight answer from the powers that be. In the old days, boat length always referred to the longer boat involved - now it look like it is the length of the overtaking boat. If that boat is 15’ long, she can be damn close. Thank God for one design sailing. Woof Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com<mailto:pw… [at] aol.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 12:10 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Charlie - This is as opposed to a faster boat following you, passing to leeward and pushing you up just to screw with you correct? Paul From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com>> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 12:03 pm Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Hi, Wilkie. I believe that the rule is that if he established overlap from astern more than 3 boat lengths to your lee (boat length of longer boat), and he is on his proper course (loosely defined as the course that gets him to his mark quickest), then he can indeed take you up, and you must stay clear. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of David Owen Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:50 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Cal_Boats%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [External] [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Guys, Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. Wilkie ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

It must be an international thing with J-24's . . . I have a friend in Canada who calls them "J-holes" LOL. Paul From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? (Wilkie) J-24s, for some reason, are particularly heavy on Alpha Hotels. We have the same problem here. Thank God that fleet is shrinking. You will find CAL 25s to be a much more friendly form of one design. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of David Owen Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 1:25 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? The offending Sprit boat was indeed within two of his boat lengths when he overlapped me, so he was required to sail his proper course until he cleared me. Unfortunately, since he is allowed to sail his proper course with an asymmetrical Spinnaker on a long sprit, he can indeed take me up until my full spinnaker (pole eased to the head stay already) collapses, as indeed it did. Seems unfair that I have to keep a watch astern and suspend my race tactics for a boat moving twice my speed with twice the mobility to maneuver. It doesn't help that the one design skippers generally display arrogance towards the more casual boats (which easily comprise a vast majority of the participation) to the point that they are practicing spinnaker hoists and maneuvers right in the middle of our start. I had an Alpha Hotel on a j-24 call starboard on me when I was trying to get a few more boat lengths on port to lay the first mark with one tack just a few hundred yards up-course from our start. He forced me to not only make an extra tack, but to miss the lane i had open theough our well-charted seaweed patch. Thanks all for the responses. Wilkie , . On Aug 17, 2012, at 9:50 AM, "Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE)" <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: Paul, the rules are becoming more and more nebulous, but I was wrong about the 3 boat lengths. Rule 17 If a boatclear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths toleeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above herproper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if theoverlap begins while thewindward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear. Rule 17 seems to say that if the leeward and overtaking boat can sail her proper course at any time, and you need to move. That couse would have had to have been established prior to the close passing. However, it also says that a boat overtaking within 2 boat lengths cannot go above proper course (luff you up) until she has cleared forward to break the overlap. However, if the boat falls to more than 2 boat lengths alee, than she can do anything she damn well pleases, but then coming up would bring her to within 2 boat lengths, and on and on. Remember the good old days of “mast abeam”. I think the rules these days are written for multi-race W-L one design regattas. One can’t even find a clean definition and use of DNC and DNS. I do scoring for Cruising One Designs in CBYRA, so this is important to me. I do my own interpretation these days, since I can’t get a straight answer from the powers that be. In the old days, boat length always referred to the longer boat involved - now it look like it is the length of the overtaking boat. If that boat is 15’ long, she can be damn close. Thank God for one design sailing. Woof Charlie From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 12:10 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Charlie - This is as opposed to a faster boat following you, passing to leeward and pushing you up just to screw with you correct? Paul From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 12:03 pm Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Hi, Wilkie. I believe that the rule is that if he established overlap from astern more than 3 boat lengths to your lee (boat length of longer boat), and he is on his proper course (loosely defined as the course that gets him to his mark quickest), then he can indeed take you up, and you must stay clear. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Owen Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:50 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Guys, Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. Wilkie ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

I crewed on J24s. Not a comfortable, fast,or generally pleasant boat to be on. If you spent major money on a crappy boat like that every year to be competitive, you'd go J'hole as well. The fleet in San Francisco bay seemed to be a good group though. Not too grumpy. On Aug 17, 2012, at 11:24 AM, "Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE)" <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: > J-24s, for some reason, are particularly heavy on Alpha Hotels. We have the same problem here. Thank God that fleet is shrinking. You will find CAL 25s to be a much more friendly form of one design. > > > > Cheers > > Charlie > > > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Owen > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 1:25 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > > > > > > > > > The offending Sprit boat was indeed within two of his boat lengths when he overlapped me, so he was required to sail his proper course until he cleared me. Unfortunately, since he is allowed to sail his proper course with an asymmetrical Spinnaker on a long sprit, he can indeed take me up until my full spinnaker (pole eased to the head stay already) collapses, as indeed it did. > > > > Seems unfair that I have to keep a watch astern and suspend my race tactics for a boat moving twice my speed with twice the mobility to maneuver. > > > > It doesn't help that the one design skippers generally display arrogance towards the more casual boats (which easily comprise a vast majority of the participation) to the point that they are practicing spinnaker hoists and maneuvers right in the middle of our start. I had an Alpha Hotel on a j-24 call starboard on me when I was trying to get a few more boat lengths on port to lay the first mark with one tack just a few hundred yards up-course from our start. He forced me to not only make an extra tack, but to miss the lane i had open theough our well-charted seaweed patch. > > > > Thanks all for the responses. > > > > Wilkie > > , > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Aug 17, 2012, at 9:50 AM, "Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE)" <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: > > Paul, the rules are becoming more and more nebulous, but I was wrong about the 3 boat lengths. > > > > Rule 17 > > > > If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull > > lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above > > her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped > > within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails > > astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap > > begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear. > > > > Rule 17 seems to say that if the leeward and overtaking boat can sail her proper course at any time, and you need to move. That couse would have had to have been established prior to the close passing. > > > > However, it also says that a boat overtaking within 2 boat lengths cannot go above proper course (luff you up) until she has cleared forward to break the overlap. However, if the boat falls to more than 2 boat lengths alee, than she can do anything she damn well pleases, but then coming up would bring her to within 2 boat lengths, and on and on. Remember the good old days of “mast abeam”. > > > > I think the rules these days are written for multi-race W-L one design regattas. One can’t even find a clean definition and use of DNC and DNS. I do scoring for Cruising One Designs in CBYRA, so this is important to me. I do my own interpretation these days, since I can’t get a straight answer from the powers that be. > > > > In the old days, boat length always referred to the longer boat involved - now it look like it is the length of the overtaking boat. If that boat is 15’ long, she can be damn close. Thank God for one design sailing. > > > > Woof > > Charlie > > > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 12:10 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > > > > > > Charlie - This is as opposed to a faster boat following you, passing to leeward and pushing you up just to screw with you correct? > > > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 12:03 pm > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Hi, Wilkie. I believe that the rule is that if he established overlap from astern more than 3 boat lengths to your lee (boat length of longer boat), and he is on his proper course (loosely defined as the course that gets him to his mark quickest), then he can indeed take you up, and you must stay clear. > > Cheers > Charlie > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Owen > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:50 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Subject: [External] [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Guys, > > Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. > > I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. > > He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. > > There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. > > Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. > > Wilkie > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >

Jim, not a fair comparison. No one in San Francisco is grumpy, nor the Bay Area in general. At, what, something like 155 PHRF how come you' re calling them slow? Compared to what, a Melges 24? I had my J boat revenge Tuesday nite when I was first in corrected, first to finish in class, and first to finish overall ahead of a J105 with fancy pants racing sails, that was bearing down on me like a fast freight train as we crossed the finish ahead of him. Their crew cheered me, as, I think it was the fist time they didn't finish ahead of everyone all season. (Granted they were sailing a longer course, but they started five minutes ahead of us) Jerry Yea Olde Cal 24 #71, Shpritz. From: Jim Donohue <sh… [at] pacbell.net> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? (Wilkie) I crewed on J24s. Not a comfortable, fast,or generally pleasant boat to be on. If you spent major money on a crappy boat like that every year to be competitive, you'd go J'hole as well. The fleet in San Francisco bay seemed to be a good group though. Not too grumpy. On Aug 17, 2012, at 11:24 AM, "Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE)" <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: >J-24s, for some reason, are particularly heavy on Alpha Hotels. We have the same problem here. Thank God that fleet is shrinking. You will find CAL 25s to be a much more friendly form of one design. > >Cheers >Charlie > >From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Owen >Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 1:25 PM >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > > > > >The offending Sprit boat was indeed within two of his boat lengths when he overlapped me, so he was required to sail his proper course until he cleared me. Unfortunately, since he is allowed to sail his proper course with an asymmetrical Spinnaker on a long sprit, he can indeed take me up until my full spinnaker (pole eased to the head stay already) collapses, as indeed it did. > >Seems unfair that I have to keep a watch astern and suspend my race tactics for a boat moving twice my speed with twice the mobility to maneuver. > >It doesn't help that the one design skippers generally display arrogance towards the more casual boats (which easily comprise a vast majority of the participation) to the point that they are practicing spinnaker hoists and maneuvers right in the middle of our start. I had an Alpha Hotel on a j-24 call starboard on me when I was trying to get a few more boat lengths on port to lay the first mark with one tack just a few hundred yards up-course from our start. He forced me to not only make an extra tack, but to miss the lane i had open theough our well-charted seaweed patch. > >Thanks all for the responses. > >Wilkie >, > >. > > > > > >Sent from my iPad > >On Aug 17, 2012, at 9:50 AM, "Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE)" <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: >Paul, the rules are becoming more and more nebulous, but I was wrong about the 3 boat lengths. >> >>Rule 17 >> >>If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull >>lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above >>her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped >>within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails >>astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap >>begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear. >> >>Rule 17 seems to say that if the leeward and overtaking boat can sail her proper course at any time, and you need to move. That couse would have had to have been established prior to the close passing. >> >>However, it also says that a boat overtaking within 2 boat lengths cannot go above proper course (luff you up) until she has cleared forward to break the overlap. However, if the boat falls to more than 2 boat lengths alee, than she can do anything she damn well pleases, but then coming up would bring her to within 2 boat lengths, and on and on. Remember the good old days of “mast abeam”. >> >>I think the rules these days are written for multi-race W-L one design regattas. One can’t even find a clean definition and use of DNC and DNS. I do scoring for Cruising One Designs in CBYRA, so this is important to me. I do my own interpretation these days, since I can’t get a straight answer from the powers that be. >> >>In the old days, boat length always referred to the longer boat involved - now it look like it is the length of the overtaking boat. If that boat is 15’ long, she can be damn close. Thank God for one design sailing. >> >>Woof >>Charlie >> >>From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com >>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 12:10 PM >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Charlie - This is as opposed to a faster boat following you, passing to leeward and pushing you up just to screw with you correct? >> >>Paul >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> >>To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 12:03 pm >>Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >>Hi, Wilkie. I believe that the rule is that if he established overlap from astern more than 3 boat lengths to your lee (boat length of longer boat), and he is on his proper course (loosely defined as the course that gets him to his mark quickest), then he can indeed take you up, and you must stay clear. >> >>Cheers >>Charlie >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Owen >>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:50 AM >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Subject: [External] [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >>Guys, >> >>Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. >> >>I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. >> >>He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. >> >>There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. >> >>Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. >> >>Wilkie >> >>------------------------------------ >> >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> > > > >