Racing Rules Quiz?

Guys, Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. Wilkie

David, ya shoulda protested him, and then let the race judges figure that one out. Jerry From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Guys, Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. Wilkie

Problem then is that you could get DSQed if he is right. Cheers, Anyway Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:58 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? David, ya shoulda protested him, and then let the race judges figure that one out. Jerry From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Guys, Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. Wilkie

I don't know anything about the racing rules, but under normal rules, a boat would not be "overtaking" until his angle of approach is at least 112.5 deg. behind your course. Harleigh From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Owen Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:50 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Guys, Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. Wilkie

Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Guys, Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. Wilkie ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > ** > > > Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both > sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 > cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which > tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to > the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. > A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more > than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw > differently. > Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with > the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard > as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river > I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail > faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the > sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. > Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea > that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we > agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on > board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 > My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Guys, > > Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark > at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through > our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, > but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I > didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger > boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. > > I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said > he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. > I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we > discussed his claims. > > He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, > but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his > assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends > other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last > night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed > us down and put us off of our gybe. > > There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running > against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. > > Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach > were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made > a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much > farther apart than this and I understood his point. > > Wilkie > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Charlie, what I meant was, he should have stayed clear of the other boat, then protested him to find out if he really had to do so. Just shows to go you that the short replies that so many emailers prefer usually just don't 'get it'. This area of the racing rules is confusing to me but Alan had a good explanation. The other area that confuses me is the situation at a leeward mark, the three boat length rule, and your rights when tacking around a buoy. Tricky tricky tricky. Somehow written descriptions fail me, mostly. Diagrams and pictures would be far easier for me to comprehend. The verbal statement "becomes overlapped" always seems like they're talking about the boat that 'get overlapped-ded. Jerry From: "Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE)" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:06 AM Subject: RE: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Problem then is that you could get DSQed if he is right. Cheers, Anyway Charlie From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:58 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? David, ya shoulda protested him, and then let the race judges figure that one out. Jerry From:David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Guys, Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. Wilkie

In the summary on L-36.com I put the definitions before the rules. The rule book puts the definitions at page 150 or so. It is very helpful to know what overlapped means before reading the rule. I think a lot of the confusion on the rules about the 3 boat length circle come from the definition of overlapped. Basically, if you look from your transom at 90 degrees and see a boat ahead of that, they are overlapped with you. Really good racers will pick their path to a mark so that they have to change course just at the last moment which breaks the overlap. Allen *Clear Astern **and Clear Ahead; Overlap *One boat is *clear astern *of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat's hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is *clear ahead*. They *overlap *when neither is * clear* *astern*. However, they also *overlap *when a boat between them *overlaps * both. These terms always apply to boats on the same *tack*. They do not apply to boats on opposite *tacks *unless rule 18 applies or both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind. On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > Charlie, what I meant was, he should have stayed clear of the other boat, > then protested him to find out if he really had to do so. Just shows to go > you that the short replies that so many emailers prefer usually just don't > 'get it'. > This area of the racing rules is confusing to me but Alan had a good > explanation. The other area that confuses me is the situation at a leeward > mark, the three boat length rule, and your rights when tacking around a > buoy. Tricky tricky tricky. Somehow written descriptions fail me, mostly. > Diagrams and pictures would be far easier for me to comprehend. The verbal > statement "becomes overlapped" always seems like they're talking about the > boat that 'get overlapped-ded. > Jerry > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE)" <hu… [at] bah.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 9:06 AM > *Subject:* RE: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > Problem then is that you could get DSQed if he is right. > > Cheers, Anyway > Charlie > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Gerald Sobel > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 11:58 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > > David, ya shoulda protested him, and then let the race judges figure > that one out. > Jerry > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > > Guys, > > Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark > at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through > our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, > but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I > didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger > boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. > > I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said > he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I > let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed > his claims. > > He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, > but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his > assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends > other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. > We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down > and put us off of our gybe. > > There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running > against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. > > Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach > were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a > similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much > farther apart than this and I understood his point. > > Wilkie > > > > > > >

My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. > Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. > Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 > My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > >From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM >Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > >Guys, > >Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. > >I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. > >He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. > >There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. > >Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. > >Wilkie > > > >------------------------------------ > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the > windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail > above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and > overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have > hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in > the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper > course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the > same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down > wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does > not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we > are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing > deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If > this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the > little room. > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of > way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said > they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is > entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > ** > > Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both > sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 > cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which > tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to > the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. > A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more > than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw > differently. > Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with > the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard > as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river > I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail > faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the > sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. > Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea > that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we > agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on > board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 > My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Guys, > > Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark > at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through > our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, > but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I > didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger > boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. > > I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said > he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. > I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we > discussed his claims. > > He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, > but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his > assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends > other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last > night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed > us down and put us off of our gybe. > > There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running > against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. > > Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach > were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made > a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much > farther apart than this and I understood his point. > > Wilkie > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > >

My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. > > > >From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > > >Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. > > >Allen > > >On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. >> Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. >> Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 >> My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >> >> >>From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >>To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM >>Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >>Guys, >> >>Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. >> >>I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. >> >>He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. >> >>There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. >> >>Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. >> >>Wilkie >> >> >> >>------------------------------------ >> >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >

Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE<http://l-36.com/read_html.php?file=rules&text1=rules_intro&title=When%20Boats%20Meet&image1=crash&image2=Sit> . *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no *proper course *before her starting signal. On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > ** > > > My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply > particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing > another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a > boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing > the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? > Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark > roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat > the right to sail her proper course. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > ** > > My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the > windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail > above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and > overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have > hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in > the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper > course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the > same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down > wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does > not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we > are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing > deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If > this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the > little room. > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of > way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said > they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is > entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > ** > > Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both > sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 > cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which > tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to > the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. > A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more > than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw > differently. > Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with > the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard > as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river > I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail > faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the > sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. > Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea > that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we > agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on > board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 > My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Guys, > > Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark > at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through > our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, > but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I > didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger > boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. > > I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said > he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. > I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we > discussed his claims. > > He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, > but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his > assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends > other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last > night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed > us down and put us off of our gybe. > > There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running > against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. > > Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach > were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made > a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much > farther apart than this and I understood his point. > > Wilkie > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my first race of the year.... An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. Wilkie On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE. Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal. On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Guys, Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. Wilkie ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

free boats. On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: > ** > > > > As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have > been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my > first race of the year.... > > An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules > wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two > skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was > impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When > I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty > cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home > made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and > totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a > rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. > > Wilkie > > > On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not > racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I > guess it can teach the other guy... > > Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or > page 2 of my racing rules page HERE<http://l-36.com/read_html.php?file=rules&text1=rules_intro&title=When%20Boats%20Meet&image1=crash&image2=Sit> > . > > *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as > possible in > the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A > boat > has no *proper course *before her starting signal. > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply >> particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing >> another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a >> boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing >> the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? >> >> *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? >> Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark >> roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat >> the right to sail her proper course. >> >> Allen >> >> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >> ** >> >> My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the >> windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail >> above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and >> overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have >> hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in >> the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper >> course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the >> same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down >> wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does >> not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we >> are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing >> deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If >> this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the >> little room. >> >> *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of >> way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said >> they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is >> entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. >> >> Allen >> >> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >> ** >> >> Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both >> sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 >> cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which >> tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to >> the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. >> A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more >> than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw >> differently. >> Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with >> the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard >> as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river >> I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail >> faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the >> sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. >> Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea >> that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we >> agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on >> board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 >> My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >> >> *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >> *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM >> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> Guys, >> >> Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark >> at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through >> our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, >> but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I >> didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger >> boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. >> >> I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he >> said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from >> behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and >> we discussed his claims. >> >> He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, >> but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his >> assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends >> other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last >> night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed >> us down and put us off of our gybe. >> >> There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running >> against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. >> >> Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach >> were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made >> a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much >> farther apart than this and I understood his point. >> >> Wilkie >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >

It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point where my boat looses way. %$#@!! Jerry PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? free boats. On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: > > > >As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my first race of the year.... > > An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. > > >Wilkie > > > > >On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > > >Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... > > >Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE. > > >Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in >the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat >has no proper course before her starting signal. > >On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> >> >>My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? >> >> >> >>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM >> >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> >> >>Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. >> >> >>Allen >> >> >>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >>> My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. >>> >>> >>> >>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. >>> >>> >>>Allen >>> >>> >>>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. >>>> Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. >>>> Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 >>>> My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >>>> >>>> >>>>From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >>>>To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM >>>>Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Guys, >>>> >>>>Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. >>>> >>>>I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. >>>> >>>>He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. >>>> >>>>There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. >>>> >>>>Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. >>>> >>>>Wilkie >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>------------------------------------ >>>> >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > >

50 degrees??? New sails in your future? Allen On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > ** > > > It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course > upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher > is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point > where my boat looses way. %$#@!! > Jerry > PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next > time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > free boats. > > On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: > > ** > > > As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have > been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my > first race of the year.... > > An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules > wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two > skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was > impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When > I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty > cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home > made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and > totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a > rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. > > Wilkie > > > On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not > racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I > guess it can teach the other guy... > > Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or > page 2 of my racing rules page HERE<http://l-36.com/read_html.php?file=rules&text1=rules_intro&title=When%20Boats%20Meet&image1=crash&image2=Sit> > . > > *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as > possible in > the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A > boat > has no *proper course *before her starting signal. > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > > My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply > particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing > another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a > boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing > the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? > Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark > roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat > the right to sail her proper course. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the > windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail > above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and > overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have > hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in > the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper > course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the > same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down > wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does > not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we > are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing > deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If > this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the > little room. > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of > way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said > they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is > entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both > sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 > cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which > tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to > the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. > A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more > than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw > differently. > Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with > the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard > as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river > I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail > faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the > sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. > Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea > that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we > agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on > board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 > My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Guys, > > Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark > at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through > our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, > but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I > didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger > boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. > > I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said > he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. > I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we > discussed his claims. > > He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, > but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his > assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends > other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last > night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed > us down and put us off of our gybe. > > There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running > against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. > > Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach > were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made > a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much > farther apart than this and I understood his point. > > Wilkie > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Allen, thanks for the suggestion. I am considering adding another batten in my mains'l, below the first and only reef point. There is a fold there just behind the mast, because when my sailmaker recut my mains'l, against his advice to just improve my back stay adjuster set up- which then was just a double loop of nylon braided strapping (now I have a triple pulley system) he just cut it down to the first reef point to save me some money. It will be a thin, narrow flexible one,which I'll glue and pop rivet in to streach out the fold at the mast. New sails? My main is just fifty years old! My genoa is newer, a North radial cut laminate that I picked up from a Santana 20 racer for $100. He has another one for me now, but this sail is holding up real well despite me beating it to death, in it's third or forth season since I got it (probably had three years racing on it previously), and only this year is the leech starting to cup to windward, which I might be able to finely adjust out with the leech line. I shortened that line recently 'cause it was too long to adjust on the Velcro pad. We'll see how it goes after the new batten goes in. I keep looking at the Minney's list, and the only sails that might fit are the Harbor 20's but they are mostly too short in the boom dimension. A new-new sail is out of my budget. I think the biggest problem in my pointing dept. is my low aspect full keel that draws 30" I will say that using a barber hauler, which is a pain in the butt, improves my pointing. I have two short lines each attached to the safety rail on the dog house, and small thumb triggered swivel shackles that do the trick. The biggest problem is when we forget to unhook the shackle before tacking, then it's a Chinese fire drill to unhook it. Best, Jerry From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:57 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? 50 degrees??? New sails in your future? Allen On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > >It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point where my boat looses way. %$#@!! > >Jerry >PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. > > > > >________________________________ > >From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM > >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > >free boats. > > >On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: > > >> >> >> >>As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my first race of the year.... >> >> An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. >> >> >>Wilkie >> >> >> >> >>On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >>Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... >> >> >>Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE. >> >> >>Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in >>the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat >>has no proper course before her starting signal. >> >>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> >>>My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? >>> >>> >>> >>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM >>> >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. >>> >>> >>>Allen >>> >>> >>>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. >>>> >>>> >>>>Allen >>>> >>>> >>>>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. >>>>> Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. >>>>> Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 >>>>> My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >>>>>To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>>>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM >>>>>Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Guys, >>>>> >>>>>Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. >>>>> >>>>>I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. >>>>> >>>>>He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. >>>>> >>>>>There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. >>>>> >>>>>Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. >>>>> >>>>>Wilkie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > >

My L-36 tacks across 90 degrees but I do get out pointed by that damn C&C-41 that has the new fancy ass sails with the Russian beer bottle ads on them. Last year I could out point him. On used sails, I am going to put together a service that lists used sails from all over the country that will fit a specific boat. The idea is you would enter your boat and see a list of sails that fit and links to the seller. It will take some time as it is not top of the list yet. Allen On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > ** > > > Allen, thanks for the suggestion. > I am considering adding another batten in my mains'l, below the first and > only reef point. There is a fold there just behind the mast, because when > my sailmaker recut my mains'l, against his advice to just improve my back > stay adjuster set up- which then was just a double loop of nylon braided > strapping (now I have a triple pulley system) he just cut it down to the > first reef point to save me some money. It will be a thin, narrow flexible > one,which I'll glue and pop rivet in to streach out the fold at the mast. > New sails? My main is just fifty years old! My genoa is newer, a North > radial cut laminate that I picked up from a Santana 20 racer for $100. He > has another one for me now, but this sail is holding up real well despite > me beating it to death, in it's third or forth season since I got it > (probably had three years racing on it previously), and only this year is > the leech starting to cup to windward, which I might be able to finely > adjust out with the leech line. I shortened that line recently 'cause it > was too long to adjust on the Velcro pad. > We'll see how it goes after the new batten goes in. I keep looking at the > Minney's list, and the only sails that might fit are the Harbor 20's but > they are mostly too short in the boom dimension. A new-new sail is out of > my budget. > I think the biggest problem in my pointing dept. is my low aspect full > keel that draws 30" > I will say that using a barber hauler, which is a pain in the butt, > improves my pointing. I have two short lines each attached to the safety > rail on the dog house, and small thumb triggered swivel shackles that do > the trick. The biggest problem is when we forget to unhook the shackle > before tacking, then it's a Chinese fire drill to unhook it. > Best, > Jerry > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:57 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > 50 degrees??? New sails in your future? > > Allen > > On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > ** > > It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course > upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher > is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point > where my boat looses way. %$#@!! > Jerry > PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next > time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > free boats. > > On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: > > ** > > > As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have > been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my > first race of the year.... > > An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules > wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two > skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was > impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When > I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty > cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home > made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and > totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a > rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. > > Wilkie > > > On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not > racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I > guess it can teach the other guy... > > Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or > page 2 of my racing rules page HERE<http://l-36.com/read_html.php?file=rules&text1=rules_intro&title=When%20Boats%20Meet&image1=crash&image2=Sit> > . > > *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as > possible in > the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A > boat > has no *proper course *before her starting signal. > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > > My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply > particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing > another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a > boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing > the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? > Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark > roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat > the right to sail her proper course. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the > windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail > above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and > overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have > hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in > the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper > course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the > same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down > wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does > not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we > are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing > deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If > this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the > little room. > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of > way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said > they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is > entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both > sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 > cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which > tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to > the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. > A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more > than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw > differently. > Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with > the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard > as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river > I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail > faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the > sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. > Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea > that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we > agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on > board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 > My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Guys, > > Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark > at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through > our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, > but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I > didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger > boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. > > I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said > he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. > I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we > discussed his claims. > > He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, > but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his > assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends > other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last > night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed > us down and put us off of our gybe. > > There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running > against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. > > Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach > were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made > a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much > farther apart than this and I understood his point. > > Wilkie > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Allen - I was going to measure all my old sails and take pics today but got rained out. I think I have something like 15 or 16 sails from my old CS 30 that someone on the Cal list might find useful. The CS 30 had a very tall mast for a 30 footer at 45' off the water and a hoist of almost 36', so my genny's should do well for a Cal 35 or 36 and might work for your boat. I will try again tomorrow. Paul From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 3:24 pm Subject: Re: New Sails? was Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?(Allen) My L-36 tacks across 90 degrees but I do get out pointed by that damn C&C-41 that has the new fancy ass sails with the Russian beer bottle ads on them. Last year I could out point him. On used sails, I am going to put together a service that lists used sails from all over the country that will fit a specific boat. The idea is you would enter your boat and see a list of sails that fit and links to the seller. It will take some time as it is not top of the list yet. Allen On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Allen, thanks for the suggestion. I am considering adding another batten in my mains'l, below the first and only reef point. There is a fold there just behind the mast, because when my sailmaker recut my mains'l, against his advice to just improve my back stay adjuster set up- which then was just a double loop of nylon braided strapping (now I have a triple pulley system) he just cut it down to the first reef point to save me some money. It will be a thin, narrow flexible one,which I'll glue and pop rivet in to streach out the fold at the mast. New sails? My main is just fifty years old! My genoa is newer, a North radial cut laminate that I picked up from a Santana 20 racer for $100. He has another one for me now, but this sail is holding up real well despite me beating it to death, in it's third or forth season since I got it (probably had three years racing on it previously), and only this year is the leech starting to cup to windward, which I might be able to finely adjust out with the leech line. I shortened that line recently 'cause it was too long to adjust on the Velcro pad. We'll see how it goes after the new batten goes in. I keep looking at the Minney's list, and the only sails that might fit are the Harbor 20's but they are mostly too short in the boom dimension. A new-new sail is out of my budget. I think the biggest problem in my pointing dept. is my low aspect full keel that draws 30" I will say that using a barber hauler, which is a pain in the butt, improves my pointing. I have two short lines each attached to the safety rail on the dog house, and small thumb triggered swivel shackles that do the trick. The biggest problem is when we forget to unhook the shackle before tacking, then it's a Chinese fire drill to unhook it. Best, Jerry From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:57 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? 50 degrees??? New sails in your future? Allen On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point where my boat looses way. %$#@!! Jerry PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? free boats. On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my first race of the year.... An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. Wilkie On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE. Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal. On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Guys, Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. Wilkie ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

I have an attic full of 45 year old sails. Papoose was owned by a sail maker at one time rumor has it. My racing sails are just a few years old and my backup main and 95 about 10 years. We practiced with one of the 45 year old ones yesterday and if it wasn't for the fact it is a 160 I might consider using it in a race. My largest sail is a 190. Not much use for that in a race though. My next sail will be a spinnaker but I need to figure out how to use them first. Mine is cross cut and very old. I will probably start with a used one after I figure out why mine isn't any good. HERE<http://l-36.com/boat_dimensions_boat.php?boat=LAPWORTH%2036&i=40.5&j=13.5&p=35.5&e=16.0&isp=40.5&jsp=13.5&py=%20&ey=> is a page with dimensions for the Lapworth-36. I have something like 12 thousand pages similar to this for different boats. It is these pages I am going to link to sails that fit the boat in question. Big project though and I only get one big project at a time. Allen On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 2:29 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > ** > > > Allen - > > I was going to measure all my old sails and take pics today but got rained > out. I think I have something like 15 or 16 sails from my old CS 30 that > someone on the Cal list might find useful. The CS 30 had a very tall mast > for a 30 footer at 45' off the water and a hoist of almost 36', so my > genny's should do well for a Cal 35 or 36 and might work for your boat. I > will try again tomorrow. > > Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 3:24 pm > Subject: Re: New Sails? was Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?(Allen) > > > My L-36 tacks across 90 degrees but I do get out pointed by that damn > C&C-41 that has the new fancy ass sails with the Russian beer bottle ads on > them. Last year I could out point him. > > On used sails, I am going to put together a service that lists used > sails from all over the country that will fit a specific boat. The idea is > you would enter your boat and see a list of sails that fit and links to the > seller. It will take some time as it is not top of the list yet. > > Allen > > On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > >> ** >> >> Allen, thanks for the suggestion. >> I am considering adding another batten in my mains'l, below the first and >> only reef point. There is a fold there just behind the mast, because when >> my sailmaker recut my mains'l, against his advice to just improve my back >> stay adjuster set up- which then was just a double loop of nylon braided >> strapping (now I have a triple pulley system) he just cut it down to the >> first reef point to save me some money. It will be a thin, narrow flexible >> one,which I'll glue and pop rivet in to streach out the fold at the mast. >> New sails? My main is just fifty years old! My genoa is newer, a North >> radial cut laminate that I picked up from a Santana 20 racer for $100. He >> has another one for me now, but this sail is holding up real well despite >> me beating it to death, in it's third or forth season since I got it >> (probably had three years racing on it previously), and only this year is >> the leech starting to cup to windward, which I might be able to finely >> adjust out with the leech line. I shortened that line recently 'cause it >> was too long to adjust on the Velcro pad. >> We'll see how it goes after the new batten goes in. I keep looking at the >> Minney's list, and the only sails that might fit are the Harbor 20's but >> they are mostly too short in the boom dimension. A new-new sail is out of >> my budget. >> I think the biggest problem in my pointing dept. is my low aspect full >> keel that draws 30" >> I will say that using a barber hauler, which is a pain in the butt, >> improves my pointing. I have two short lines each attached to the safety >> rail on the dog house, and small thumb triggered swivel shackles that do >> the trick. The biggest problem is when we forget to unhook the shackle >> before tacking, then it's a Chinese fire drill to unhook it. >> Best, >> Jerry >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:57 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> 50 degrees??? New sails in your future? >> >> Allen >> >> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: >> >> ** >> >> It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course >> upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher >> is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point >> where my boat looses way. %$#@!! >> Jerry >> PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change >> next time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem >> fair. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> free boats. >> >> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: >> >> ** >> >> >> As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have >> been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my >> first race of the year.... >> >> An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules >> wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two >> skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was >> impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When >> I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty >> cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home >> made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and >> totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a >> rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. >> >> Wilkie >> >> >> On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not >> racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I >> guess it can teach the other guy... >> >> Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book >> or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE<http://l-36.com/read_html.php?file=rules&text1=rules_intro&title=When%20Boats%20Meet&image1=crash&image2=Sit> >> . >> >> *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as >> possible in >> the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A >> boat >> has no *proper course *before her starting signal. >> >> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >> ** >> >> >> My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply >> particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing >> another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a >> boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing >> the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? >> >> *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? >> Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark >> roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat >> the right to sail her proper course. >> >> Allen >> >> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >> ** >> >> My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but >> the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to >> sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and >> overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have >> hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in >> the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper >> course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the >> same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down >> wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does >> not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we >> are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing >> deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If >> this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the >> little room. >> >> *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of >> way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said >> they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is >> entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. >> >> Allen >> >> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >> ** >> >> Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both >> sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 >> cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which >> tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to >> the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. >> A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more >> than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw >> differently. >> Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with >> the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard >> as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river >> I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail >> faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the >> sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. >> Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea >> that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we >> agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on >> board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 >> My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >> >> *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >> *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM >> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> Guys, >> >> Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark >> at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through >> our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, >> but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I >> didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger >> boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. >> >> I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he >> said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from >> behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and >> we discussed his claims. >> >> He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, >> but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his >> assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends >> other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last >> night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed >> us down and put us off of our gybe. >> >> There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running >> against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. >> >> Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach >> were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made >> a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much >> farther apart than this and I understood his point. >> >> Wilkie >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >

Allen, I truly admire you. You are a man of unbridled energy and enthusiasm. I enjoy your contributions to sailing and this list. Wilkie On Aug 19, 2012, at 12:23 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: My L-36 tacks across 90 degrees but I do get out pointed by that damn C&C-41 that has the new fancy ass sails with the Russian beer bottle ads on them. Last year I could out point him. On used sails, I am going to put together a service that lists used sails from all over the country that will fit a specific boat. The idea is you would enter your boat and see a list of sails that fit and links to the seller. It will take some time as it is not top of the list yet. Allen On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Allen, thanks for the suggestion. I am considering adding another batten in my mains'l, below the first and only reef point. There is a fold there just behind the mast, because when my sailmaker recut my mains'l, against his advice to just improve my back stay adjuster set up- which then was just a double loop of nylon braided strapping (now I have a triple pulley system) he just cut it down to the first reef point to save me some money. It will be a thin, narrow flexible one,which I'll glue and pop rivet in to streach out the fold at the mast. New sails? My main is just fifty years old! My genoa is newer, a North radial cut laminate that I picked up from a Santana 20 racer for $100. He has another one for me now, but this sail is holding up real well despite me beating it to death, in it's third or forth season since I got it (probably had three years racing on it previously), and only this year is the leech starting to cup to windward, which I might be able to finely adjust out with the leech line. I shortened that line recently 'cause it was too long to adjust on the Velcro pad. We'll see how it goes after the new batten goes in. I keep looking at the Minney's list, and the only sails that might fit are the Harbor 20's but they are mostly too short in the boom dimension. A new-new sail is out of my budget. I think the biggest problem in my pointing dept. is my low aspect full keel that draws 30" I will say that using a barber hauler, which is a pain in the butt, improves my pointing. I have two short lines each attached to the safety rail on the dog house, and small thumb triggered swivel shackles that do the trick. The biggest problem is when we forget to unhook the shackle before tacking, then it's a Chinese fire drill to unhook it. Best, Jerry From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:57 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? 50 degrees??? New sails in your future? Allen On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point where my boat looses way. %$#@!! Jerry PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? free boats. On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my first race of the year.... An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. Wilkie On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE. Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal. On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Guys, Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. Wilkie ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

Thank you Wilkie. Nicest thing anyone has said to me in some time. Allen On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 4:48 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: > ** > > > > > > Allen, > > I truly admire you. You are a man of unbridled energy and enthusiasm. I > enjoy your contributions to sailing and this list. > > Wilkie > > > > On Aug 19, 2012, at 12:23 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > My L-36 tacks across 90 degrees but I do get out pointed by that damn > C&C-41 that has the new fancy ass sails with the Russian beer bottle ads on > them. Last year I could out point him. > > On used sails, I am going to put together a service that lists used sails > from all over the country that will fit a specific boat. The idea is you > would enter your boat and see a list of sails that fit and links to the > seller. It will take some time as it is not top of the list yet. > > Allen > > On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> Allen, thanks for the suggestion. >> I am considering adding another batten in my mains'l, below the first and >> only reef point. There is a fold there just behind the mast, because when >> my sailmaker recut my mains'l, against his advice to just improve my back >> stay adjuster set up- which then was just a double loop of nylon braided >> strapping (now I have a triple pulley system) he just cut it down to the >> first reef point to save me some money. It will be a thin, narrow flexible >> one,which I'll glue and pop rivet in to streach out the fold at the mast. >> New sails? My main is just fifty years old! My genoa is newer, a North >> radial cut laminate that I picked up from a Santana 20 racer for $100. He >> has another one for me now, but this sail is holding up real well despite >> me beating it to death, in it's third or forth season since I got it >> (probably had three years racing on it previously), and only this year is >> the leech starting to cup to windward, which I might be able to finely >> adjust out with the leech line. I shortened that line recently 'cause it >> was too long to adjust on the Velcro pad. >> We'll see how it goes after the new batten goes in. I keep looking at the >> Minney's list, and the only sails that might fit are the Harbor 20's but >> they are mostly too short in the boom dimension. A new-new sail is out of >> my budget. >> I think the biggest problem in my pointing dept. is my low aspect full >> keel that draws 30" >> I will say that using a barber hauler, which is a pain in the butt, >> improves my pointing. I have two short lines each attached to the safety >> rail on the dog house, and small thumb triggered swivel shackles that do >> the trick. The biggest problem is when we forget to unhook the shackle >> before tacking, then it's a Chinese fire drill to unhook it. >> Best, >> Jerry >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:57 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> 50 degrees??? New sails in your future? >> >> Allen >> >> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >> ** >> >> It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course >> upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher >> is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point >> where my boat looses way. %$#@!! >> Jerry >> PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next >> time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> free boats. >> >> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: >> >> ** >> >> >> As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have >> been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my >> first race of the year.... >> >> An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules >> wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two >> skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was >> impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When >> I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty >> cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home >> made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and >> totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a >> rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. >> >> Wilkie >> >> >> On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not >> racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I >> guess it can teach the other guy... >> >> Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or >> page 2 of my racing rules page HERE<http://l-36.com/read_html.php?file=rules&text1=rules_intro&title=When%20Boats%20Meet&image1=crash&image2=Sit> >> . >> >> *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as >> possible in >> the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A >> boat >> has no *proper course *before her starting signal. >> >> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >> ** >> >> >> My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply >> particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing >> another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a >> boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing >> the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? >> >> *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? >> Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark >> roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat >> the right to sail her proper course. >> >> Allen >> >> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >> ** >> >> My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the >> windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail >> above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and >> overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have >> hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in >> the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper >> course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the >> same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down >> wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does >> not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we >> are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing >> deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If >> this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the >> little room. >> >> *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of >> way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said >> they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is >> entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. >> >> Allen >> >> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >> ** >> >> Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both >> sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 >> cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which >> tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to >> the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. >> A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more >> than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw >> differently. >> Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with >> the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard >> as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river >> I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail >> faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the >> sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. >> Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea >> that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we >> agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on >> board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 >> My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >> >> *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >> *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM >> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> Guys, >> >> Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark >> at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through >> our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, >> but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I >> didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger >> boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. >> >> I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he >> said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from >> behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and >> we discussed his claims. >> >> He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, >> but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his >> assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends >> other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last >> night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed >> us down and put us off of our gybe. >> >> There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running >> against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. >> >> Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach >> were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made >> a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much >> farther apart than this and I understood his point. >> >> Wilkie >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >

Allen, Minney's has more sails than they have listed on their, as they get in more sails all the time, but only get around to listing them on their website from time to time. Jib Kelly's in San Pedro, same, only far more out of date, if they are doing it at all anymore..and of course, there are some other boat junkyards in the Long Beach that have a stock of sails too but have no way to catalog them other than "send us your sail dimensions and we'll see if we have one that fits". I'm sure all the sail lofts have used sails laying around and it would be groovy if there was some centralized way to exchange them as Amazon does with books. It would take some thought to do that. This could be pretty neat as nearly everyone who has had his boat for some years and sails competitively may have some sails laying around that someone lower on the pecking order, people like me who sails cruising class, or, an even a much huger market, like people with older classic plastics with TOTALLY worn out dacron, particularly boats that came with thin, weak sails to begin with, could use. It's amazing how many boats like that are here in MdR, so much so that looking at the mainsail logo won't tell you at which what kind of sailboat you may be looking. I'm afraid most of the boats are like mine, sailing with original sails, only they haven't gone off the deep end like I have, and glued and riveted in multiple battens to stretch out the wrinkles. Interestingly, Minney's seems to sell their sails for far less than used sail outlets that are dedicated to that full time. And the best deal is to be really really lucky, and get them from a local friend who races at the National level that has lots of not so worn out sails that fit your boat. Jerry From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:48 PM Subject: Re: New Sails? was Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?(Allen) Allen, I truly admire you. You are a man of unbridled energy and enthusiasm. I enjoy your contributions to sailing and this list. Wilkie On Aug 19, 2012, at 12:23 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: My L-36 tacks across 90 degrees but I do get out pointed by that damn C&C-41 that has the new fancy ass sails with the Russian beer bottle ads on them. Last year I could out point him. On used sails, I am going to put together a service that lists used sails from all over the country that will fit a specific boat. The idea is you would enter your boat and see a list of sails that fit and links to the seller. It will take some time as it is not top of the list yet. Allen On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >Allen, thanks for the suggestion. >I am considering adding another batten in my mains'l, below the first and only reef point. There is a fold there just behind the mast, because when my sailmaker recut my mains'l, against his advice to just improve my back stay adjuster set up- which then was just a double loop of nylon braided strapping (now I have a triple pulley system) he just cut it down to the first reef point to save me some money. It will be a thin, narrow flexible one,which I'll glue and pop rivet in to streach out the fold at the mast. >New sails? My main is just fifty years old! My genoa is newer, a North radial cut laminate that I picked up from a Santana 20 racer for $100. He has another one for me now, but this sail is holding up real well despite me beating it to death, in it's third or forth season since I got it (probably had three years racing on it previously), and only this year is the leech starting to cup to windward, which I might be able to finely adjust out with the leech line. I shortened that line recently 'cause it was too long to adjust on the Velcro pad. >We'll see how it goes after the new batten goes in. I keep looking at the Minney's list, and the only sails that might fit are the Harbor 20's but they are mostly too short in the boom dimension. A new-new sail is out of my budget. >I think the biggest problem in my pointing dept. is my low aspect full keel that draws 30" > >I will say that using a barber hauler, which is a pain in the butt, improves my pointing. I have two short lines each attached to the safety rail on the dog house, and small thumb triggered swivel shackles that do the trick. The biggest problem is when we forget to unhook the shackle before tacking, then it's a Chinese fire drill to unhook it. >Best, >Jerry > > > > >________________________________ >From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:57 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > >50 degrees??? New sails in your future? > > >Allen > > >On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point where my boat looses way. %$#@!! >> >>Jerry >>PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. >> >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> >>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM >> >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> >>free boats. >> >> >>On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> >>>As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my first race of the year.... >>> >>>An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. >>> >>> >>>Wilkie >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... >>> >>> >>>Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE. >>> >>> >>>Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in >>>the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat >>>has no proper course before her starting signal. >>> >>>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM >>>> >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. >>>> >>>> >>>>Allen >>>> >>>> >>>>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM >>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Allen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. >>>>>> Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. >>>>>> Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 >>>>>> My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >>>>>>To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>>>>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM >>>>>>Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Guys, >>>>>> >>>>>>Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. >>>>>> >>>>>>I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. >>>>>> >>>>>>He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. >>>>>> >>>>>>There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>>Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. >>>>>> >>>>>>Wilkie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > >

Allen, I think Wilkie has put in words thoughts we've all of us have had but haven't expressed for some time now. Keep up the good work, and if you don't you've already made a very admirable contribution to both our Cal group and the sailing community in general. I guess we're all a bit overwhelmed by it, sort of like Diana Nyad who is currently swimming from Havana Cuba to Key West with out a shark cage, and having already been stung several times by some of the world's nastiest jelly fish, or that limb-less fellow that swam the Bering Strait a few days ago, crowning some of his previous feats like the Channel swim and swim of the Strait of Gilbralter. Diana will be celebrating her 63 birthday Wednesday, the day she hopes to complete her swim. She set off on Saturday. I can't imagine staying awake that long, let alone swimming in the ocean continually that long! Jerry From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:51 PM Subject: Re: New Sails? was Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?(Allen) Thank you Wilkie. Nicest thing anyone has said to me in some time. Allen On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 4:48 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: > > > > > > >Allen, > > >I truly admire you. You are a man of unbridled energy and enthusiasm. I enjoy your contributions to sailing and this list. > > >Wilkie > > > > > > >On Aug 19, 2012, at 12:23 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > > >My L-36 tacks across 90 degrees but I do get out pointed by that damn C&C-41 that has the new fancy ass sails with the Russian beer bottle ads on them. Last year I could out point him. > > >On used sails, I am going to put together a service that lists used sails from all over the country that will fit a specific boat. The idea is you would enter your boat and see a list of sails that fit and links to the seller. It will take some time as it is not top of the list yet. > > >Allen > > >On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> >> >>Allen, thanks for the suggestion. >>I am considering adding another batten in my mains'l, below the first and only reef point. There is a fold there just behind the mast, because when my sailmaker recut my mains'l, against his advice to just improve my back stay adjuster set up- which then was just a double loop of nylon braided strapping (now I have a triple pulley system) he just cut it down to the first reef point to save me some money. It will be a thin, narrow flexible one,which I'll glue and pop rivet in to streach out the fold at the mast. >>New sails? My main is just fifty years old! My genoa is newer, a North radial cut laminate that I picked up from a Santana 20 racer for $100. He has another one for me now, but this sail is holding up real well despite me beating it to death, in it's third or forth season since I got it (probably had three years racing on it previously), and only this year is the leech starting to cup to windward, which I might be able to finely adjust out with the leech line. I shortened that line recently 'cause it was too long to adjust on the Velcro pad. >>We'll see how it goes after the new batten goes in. I keep looking at the Minney's list, and the only sails that might fit are the Harbor 20's but they are mostly too short in the boom dimension. A new-new sail is out of my budget. >>I think the biggest problem in my pointing dept. is my low aspect full keel that draws 30" >> >>I will say that using a barber hauler, which is a pain in the butt, improves my pointing. I have two short lines each attached to the safety rail on the dog house, and small thumb triggered swivel shackles that do the trick. The biggest problem is when we forget to unhook the shackle before tacking, then it's a Chinese fire drill to unhook it. >>Best, >>Jerry >> >> >> >> >>________________________________ >>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:57 AM >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >>50 degrees??? New sails in your future? >> >> >>Allen >> >> >>On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >>>It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point where my boat looses way. %$#@!! >>> >>>Jerry >>>PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> >>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM >>> >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>free boats. >>> >>> >>>On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my first race of the year.... >>>> >>>>An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. >>>> >>>> >>>>Wilkie >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... >>>> >>>> >>>>Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE. >>>> >>>> >>>>Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in >>>>the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat >>>>has no proper course before her starting signal. >>>> >>>>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM >>>>> >>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Allen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM >>>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Allen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. >>>>>>> Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. >>>>>>> Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 >>>>>>> My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >>>>>>>To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>>>>>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM >>>>>>>Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Guys, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Wilkie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>------------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > >

The Amazon used book analogy is interesting. The issue I will have is getting the data on who has what sails. The contribution I will be making is only showing sails that are close to fitting for your boat so you don't have to keep going back to the dimensions and sort everything out. Who knows, maybe it will be a bigger project than this start line race timer app I am just now finishing up. More on that after one more race with it. Allen On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > Allen, Minney's has more sails than they have listed on their, as they get > in more sails all the time, but only get around to listing them on their > website from time to time. Jib Kelly's in San Pedro, same, only far more > out of date, if they are doing it at all anymore..and of course, there are > some other boat junkyards in the Long Beach that have a stock of sails too > but have no way to catalog them other than "send us your sail dimensions > and we'll see if we have one that fits". I'm sure all the sail lofts have > used sails laying around and it would be groovy if there was some > centralized way to exchange them as Amazon does with books. It would take > some thought to do that. This could be pretty neat as nearly everyone who > has had his boat for some years and sails competitively may have some > sails laying around that someone lower on the pecking order, people like me > who sails cruising class, or, an even a much huger market, like people with > older classic plastics with TOTALLY worn out dacron, particularly boats > that came with thin, weak sails to begin with, could use. It's amazing how > many boats like that are here in MdR, so much so that looking at the > mainsail logo won't tell you at which what kind of sailboat you may be > looking. I'm afraid most of the boats are like mine, sailing with original > sails, only they haven't gone off the deep end like I have, and glued and > riveted in multiple battens to stretch out the wrinkles. > Interestingly, Minney's seems to sell their sails for far less than used > sail outlets that are dedicated to that full time. And the best deal is to > be really really lucky, and get them from a local friend who races at the > National level that has lots of not so worn out sails that fit your boat. > Jerry > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:48 PM > > *Subject:* Re: New Sails? was Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?(Allen) > > > > > > Allen, > > I truly admire you. You are a man of unbridled energy and enthusiasm. I > enjoy your contributions to sailing and this list. > > Wilkie > > > > On Aug 19, 2012, at 12:23 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > My L-36 tacks across 90 degrees but I do get out pointed by that damn > C&C-41 that has the new fancy ass sails with the Russian beer bottle ads on > them. Last year I could out point him. > > On used sails, I am going to put together a service that lists used sails > from all over the country that will fit a specific boat. The idea is you > would enter your boat and see a list of sails that fit and links to the > seller. It will take some time as it is not top of the list yet. > > Allen > > On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > > Allen, thanks for the suggestion. > I am considering adding another batten in my mains'l, below the first and > only reef point. There is a fold there just behind the mast, because when > my sailmaker recut my mains'l, against his advice to just improve my back > stay adjuster set up- which then was just a double loop of nylon braided > strapping (now I have a triple pulley system) he just cut it down to the > first reef point to save me some money. It will be a thin, narrow flexible > one,which I'll glue and pop rivet in to streach out the fold at the mast. > New sails? My main is just fifty years old! My genoa is newer, a North > radial cut laminate that I picked up from a Santana 20 racer for $100. He > has another one for me now, but this sail is holding up real well despite > me beating it to death, in it's third or forth season since I got it > (probably had three years racing on it previously), and only this year is > the leech starting to cup to windward, which I might be able to finely > adjust out with the leech line. I shortened that line recently 'cause it > was too long to adjust on the Velcro pad. > We'll see how it goes after the new batten goes in. I keep looking at the > Minney's list, and the only sails that might fit are the Harbor 20's but > they are mostly too short in the boom dimension. A new-new sail is out of > my budget. > I think the biggest problem in my pointing dept. is my low aspect full > keel that draws 30" > I will say that using a barber hauler, which is a pain in the butt, > improves my pointing. I have two short lines each attached to the safety > rail on the dog house, and small thumb triggered swivel shackles that do > the trick. The biggest problem is when we forget to unhook the shackle > before tacking, then it's a Chinese fire drill to unhook it. > Best, > Jerry > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:57 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > 50 degrees??? New sails in your future? > > Allen > > On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course > upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher > is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point > where my boat looses way. %$#@!! > Jerry > PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next > time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > free boats. > > On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: > > ** > > > As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have > been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my > first race of the year.... > > An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules > wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two > skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was > impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When > I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty > cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home > made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and > totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a > rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. > > Wilkie > > > On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not > racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I > guess it can teach the other guy... > > Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or > page 2 of my racing rules page HERE<http://l-36.com/read_html.php?file=rules&text1=rules_intro&title=When%20Boats%20Meet&image1=crash&image2=Sit> > . > > *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as > possible in > the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A > boat > has no *proper course *before her starting signal. > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > > My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply > particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing > another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a > boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing > the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? > Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark > roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat > the right to sail her proper course. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the > windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail > above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and > overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have > hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in > the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper > course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the > same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down > wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does > not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we > are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing > deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If > this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the > little room. > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of > way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said > they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is > entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both > sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 > cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which > tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to > the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. > A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more > than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw > differently. > Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with > the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard > as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river > I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail > faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the > sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. > Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea > that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we > agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on > board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 > My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Guys, > > Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark > at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through > our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, > but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I > didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger > boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. > > I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said > he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. > I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we > discussed his claims. > > He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, > but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his > assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends > other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last > night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed > us down and put us off of our gybe. > > There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running > against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. > > Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach > were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made > a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much > farther apart than this and I understood his point. > > Wilkie > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Thank you Jerry. You are too kind. Allen On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > Allen, I think Wilkie has put in words thoughts we've all of us have had > but haven't expressed for some time now. Keep up the good work, and if you > don't you've already made a very admirable contribution to both our Cal > group and the sailing community in general. I guess we're all a bit > overwhelmed by it, sort of like Diana Nyad who is currently swimming from > Havana Cuba to Key West with out a shark cage, and having already been > stung several times by some of the world's nastiest jelly fish, or that > limb-less fellow that swam the Bering Strait a few days ago, crowning some > of his previous feats like the Channel swim and swim of the Strait of > Gilbralter. > Diana will be celebrating her 63 birthday Wednesday, the day she hopes to > complete her swim. She set off on Saturday. I can't imagine staying awake > that long, let alone swimming in the ocean continually that long! > Jerry > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:51 PM > > *Subject:* Re: New Sails? was Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?(Allen) > > > Thank you Wilkie. Nicest thing anyone has said to me in some time. > > Allen > > On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 4:48 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: > > ** > > > > > Allen, > > I truly admire you. You are a man of unbridled energy and enthusiasm. I > enjoy your contributions to sailing and this list. > > Wilkie > > > > On Aug 19, 2012, at 12:23 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > My L-36 tacks across 90 degrees but I do get out pointed by that damn > C&C-41 that has the new fancy ass sails with the Russian beer bottle ads on > them. Last year I could out point him. > > On used sails, I am going to put together a service that lists used sails > from all over the country that will fit a specific boat. The idea is you > would enter your boat and see a list of sails that fit and links to the > seller. It will take some time as it is not top of the list yet. > > Allen > > On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > > Allen, thanks for the suggestion. > I am considering adding another batten in my mains'l, below the first and > only reef point. There is a fold there just behind the mast, because when > my sailmaker recut my mains'l, against his advice to just improve my back > stay adjuster set up- which then was just a double loop of nylon braided > strapping (now I have a triple pulley system) he just cut it down to the > first reef point to save me some money. It will be a thin, narrow flexible > one,which I'll glue and pop rivet in to streach out the fold at the mast. > New sails? My main is just fifty years old! My genoa is newer, a North > radial cut laminate that I picked up from a Santana 20 racer for $100. He > has another one for me now, but this sail is holding up real well despite > me beating it to death, in it's third or forth season since I got it > (probably had three years racing on it previously), and only this year is > the leech starting to cup to windward, which I might be able to finely > adjust out with the leech line. I shortened that line recently 'cause it > was too long to adjust on the Velcro pad. > We'll see how it goes after the new batten goes in. I keep looking at the > Minney's list, and the only sails that might fit are the Harbor 20's but > they are mostly too short in the boom dimension. A new-new sail is out of > my budget. > I think the biggest problem in my pointing dept. is my low aspect full > keel that draws 30" > I will say that using a barber hauler, which is a pain in the butt, > improves my pointing. I have two short lines each attached to the safety > rail on the dog house, and small thumb triggered swivel shackles that do > the trick. The biggest problem is when we forget to unhook the shackle > before tacking, then it's a Chinese fire drill to unhook it. > Best, > Jerry > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:57 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > 50 degrees??? New sails in your future? > > Allen > > On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course > upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher > is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point > where my boat looses way. %$#@!! > Jerry > PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next > time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > free boats. > > On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: > > ** > > > As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have > been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my > first race of the year.... > > An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules > wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two > skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was > impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When > I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty > cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home > made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and > totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a > rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. > > Wilkie > > > On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not > racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I > guess it can teach the other guy... > > Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or > page 2 of my racing rules page HERE<http://l-36.com/read_html.php?file=rules&text1=rules_intro&title=When%20Boats%20Meet&image1=crash&image2=Sit> > . > > *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as > possible in > the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A > boat > has no *proper course *before her starting signal. > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > > My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply > particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing > another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a > boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing > the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? > Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark > roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat > the right to sail her proper course. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the > windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail > above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and > overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have > hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in > the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper > course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the > same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down > wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does > not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we > are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing > deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If > this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the > little room. > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of > way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said > they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is > entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > ** > > Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both > sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 > cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which > tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to > the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. > A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more > than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw > differently. > Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with > the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard > as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river > I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail > faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the > sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. > Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea > that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we > agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on > board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 > My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Guys, > > Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark > at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through > our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, > but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I > didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger > boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. > > I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said > he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. > I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we > discussed his claims. > > He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, > but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his > assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends > other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last > night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed > us down and put us off of our gybe. > > There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running > against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. > > Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach > were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made > a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much > farther apart than this and I understood his point. > > Wilkie > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Ditto. You are one of my favorite reads on this site. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" PS You and that Chris guy… And Mike….. and that Doctor who owned a Cal 40… WOW what a list!!! Glad I bought a CAL. On Aug 19, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > Thank you Jerry. You are too kind. > > > Allen > > On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Allen, I think Wilkie has put in words thoughts we've all of us have had but haven't expressed for some time now. Keep up the good work, and if you don't you've already made a very admirable contribution to both our Cal group and the sailing community in general. I guess we're all a bit overwhelmed by it, sort of like Diana Nyad who is currently swimming from Havana Cuba to Key West with out a shark cage, and having already been stung several times by some of the world's nastiest jelly fish, or that limb-less fellow that swam the Bering Strait a few days ago, crowning some of his previous feats like the Channel swim and swim of the Strait of Gilbralter. > Diana will be celebrating her 63 birthday Wednesday, the day she hopes to complete her swim. She set off on Saturday. I can't imagine staying awake that long, let alone swimming in the ocean continually that long! > Jerry > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:51 PM > > Subject: Re: New Sails? was Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?(Allen) > > > Thank you Wilkie. Nicest thing anyone has said to me in some time. > > Allen > > On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 4:48 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: > > > > > Allen, > > I truly admire you. You are a man of unbridled energy and enthusiasm. I enjoy your contributions to sailing and this list. > > Wilkie > > > > On Aug 19, 2012, at 12:23 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > > > My L-36 tacks across 90 degrees but I do get out pointed by that damn C&C-41 that has the new fancy ass sails with the Russian beer bottle ads on them. Last year I could out point him. > > On used sails, I am going to put together a service that lists used sails from all over the country that will fit a specific boat. The idea is you would enter your boat and see a list of sails that fit and links to the seller. It will take some time as it is not top of the list yet. > > Allen > > On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Allen, thanks for the suggestion. > I am considering adding another batten in my mains'l, below the first and only reef point. There is a fold there just behind the mast, because when my sailmaker recut my mains'l, against his advice to just improve my back stay adjuster set up- which then was just a double loop of nylon braided strapping (now I have a triple pulley system) he just cut it down to the first reef point to save me some money. It will be a thin, narrow flexible one,which I'll glue and pop rivet in to streach out the fold at the mast. > New sails? My main is just fifty years old! My genoa is newer, a North radial cut laminate that I picked up from a Santana 20 racer for $100. He has another one for me now, but this sail is holding up real well despite me beating it to death, in it's third or forth season since I got it (probably had three years racing on it previously), and only this year is the leech starting to cup to windward, which I might be able to finely adjust out with the leech line. I shortened that line recently 'cause it was too long to adjust on the Velcro pad. > We'll see how it goes after the new batten goes in. I keep looking at the Minney's list, and the only sails that might fit are the Harbor 20's but they are mostly too short in the boom dimension. A new-new sail is out of my budget. > I think the biggest problem in my pointing dept. is my low aspect full keel that draws 30" > I will say that using a barber hauler, which is a pain in the butt, improves my pointing. I have two short lines each attached to the safety rail on the dog house, and small thumb triggered swivel shackles that do the trick. The biggest problem is when we forget to unhook the shackle before tacking, then it's a Chinese fire drill to unhook it. > Best, > Jerry > > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:57 AM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > 50 degrees??? New sails in your future? > > Allen > > On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point where my boat looses way. %$#@!! > Jerry > PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. > > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > free boats. > > On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: > > > As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my first race of the year.... > > An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. > > Wilkie > > > On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... > > Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE. > > Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in > the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat > has no proper course before her starting signal. > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? > > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. > > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. > Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. > Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 > My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> > To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Guys, > > Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. > > I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. > > He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. > > There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. > > Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. > > Wilkie > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Thank you , Don you are too kind! This Cal list brings together sailors from all parts of North America. We have different and divergent experiences and opinions. Get 4 sailors together and you will get 5 different opinions. Sailors are a superstitous and traditional lot. Don't change something that has worked for 150 years. We are tough, resourceful and opinionated too! This forum is a treasure with passion and wisdom that has been gained the hard way. We earned it. My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 From: Donald C Dutton <dn… [at] comcast.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: Donald C Dutton <dn… [at] comcast.net> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 11:30 AM Subject: Re: New Sails? was Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?(Allen) Ditto. You are one of my favorite reads on this site. Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" PS You and that Chris guy… And Mike….. and that Doctor who owned a Cal 40… WOW what a list!!! Glad I bought a CAL. On Aug 19, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: >Thank you Jerry. You are too kind. > > >Allen > > >On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> >> >>Allen, I think Wilkie has put in words thoughts we've all of us have had but haven't expressed for some time now. Keep up the good work, and if you don't you've already made a very admirable contribution to both our Cal group and the sailing community in general. I guess we're all a bit overwhelmed by it, sort of like Diana Nyad who is currently swimming from Havana Cuba to Key West with out a shark cage, and having already been stung several times by some of the world's nastiest jelly fish, or that limb-less fellow that swam the Bering Strait a few days ago, crowning some of his previous feats like the Channel swim and swim of the Strait of Gilbralter. >>Diana will be celebrating her 63 birthday Wednesday, the day she hopes to complete her swim. She set off on Saturday. I can't imagine staying awake that long, let alone swimming in the ocean continually that long! >> >>Jerry >> >> >>________________________________ >>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:51 PM >> >>Subject: Re: New Sails? was Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?(Allen) >> >> >> >>Thank you Wilkie. Nicest thing anyone has said to me in some time. >> >> >>Allen >> >> >>On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 4:48 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Allen, >>> >>> >>>I truly admire you. You are a man of unbridled energy and enthusiasm. I enjoy your contributions to sailing and this list. >>> >>> >>>Wilkie >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Aug 19, 2012, at 12:23 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>My L-36 tacks across 90 degrees but I do get out pointed by that damn C&C-41 that has the new fancy ass sails with the Russian beer bottle ads on them. Last year I could out point him. >>> >>> >>>On used sails, I am going to put together a service that lists used sails from all over the country that will fit a specific boat. The idea is you would enter your boat and see a list of sails that fit and links to the seller. It will take some time as it is not top of the list yet. >>> >>> >>>Allen >>> >>> >>>On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Allen, thanks for the suggestion. >>>>I am considering adding another batten in my mains'l, below the first and only reef point. There is a fold there just behind the mast, because when my sailmaker recut my mains'l, against his advice to just improve my back stay adjuster set up- which then was just a double loop of nylon braided strapping (now I have a triple pulley system) he just cut it down to the first reef point to save me some money. It will be a thin, narrow flexible one,which I'll glue and pop rivet in to streach out the fold at the mast. >>>>New sails? My main is just fifty years old! My genoa is newer, a North radial cut laminate that I picked up from a Santana 20 racer for $100. He has another one for me now, but this sail is holding up real well despite me beating it to death, in it's third or forth season since I got it (probably had three years racing on it previously), and only this year is the leech starting to cup to windward, which I might be able to finely adjust out with the leech line. I shortened that line recently 'cause it was too long to adjust on the Velcro pad. >>>>We'll see how it goes after the new batten goes in. I keep looking at the Minney's list, and the only sails that might fit are the Harbor 20's but they are mostly too short in the boom dimension. A new-new sail is out of my budget. >>>>I think the biggest problem in my pointing dept. is my low aspect full keel that draws 30" >>>> >>>>I will say that using a barber hauler, which is a pain in the butt, improves my pointing. I have two short lines each attached to the safety rail on the dog house, and small thumb triggered swivel shackles that do the trick. The biggest problem is when we forget to unhook the shackle before tacking, then it's a Chinese fire drill to unhook it. >>>>Best, >>>>Jerry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>________________________________ >>>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:57 AM >>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>50 degrees??? New sails in your future? >>>> >>>> >>>>Allen >>>> >>>> >>>>On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point where my boat looses way. %$#@!! >>>>> >>>>>Jerry >>>>>PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>________________________________ >>>>> >>>>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM >>>>> >>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>free boats. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my first race of the year.... >>>>>> >>>>>>An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Wilkie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in >>>>>>the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat >>>>>>has no proper course before her starting signal. >>>>>> >>>>>>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Allen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>>>>>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>>>>>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Allen >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. >>>>>>>>> Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. >>>>>>>>> Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 >>>>>>>>> My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >>>>>>>>>To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>>>>>>>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM >>>>>>>>>Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Guys, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Wilkie >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > >

So then I need to keep polars on board for all boats and consult them when some sprit boat hails me? I dont think so. I will continue to conclude that the fastest course to the mark is the one with the shortest distance. I will not give in to some boats who screams come up, come up! We will see who triumphs in the little room. My Best, Mike From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE. Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal. On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? > > > >From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM > >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > > >Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. > > >Allen > > >On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. >> >> >> >>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> >> >>Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. >> >> >>Allen >> >> >>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >>> Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. >>> Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. >>> Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 >>> My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >>> >>> >>>From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >>>To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>>Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM >>>Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >>> >>> >>> >>>Guys, >>> >>>Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. >>> >>>I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. >>> >>>He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. >>> >>>There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. >>> >>>Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. >>> >>>Wilkie >>> >>> >>> >>>------------------------------------ >>> >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >

Mike, I generally do not post after reading your rules interpretations because they agree with mine. I have raced since 1981 and have run race committees in Houston and in Panama City Florida where we ran the MidWinter Championships for Flying Scots. Think that is a small venue -- read the list of winners and runners-up and you will find every name in sailing history!! I was the chief measurer for these races and it doesn't get any more intense than North Sails and Jeff Fisher of Fisher Sails standing over your shoulder watching every thing that you do! Your thanks will be added to my trophy case. I for one, loved sailing on San Francisco Bay. My wife and son were less enthuseiastic. My favorite memory will remain calling my brother on cell phone while sailing single handed under the Golden Gate Bridge. My fuel filter then clogged, and I sailed my 5 and a half ton Cal 33-2 back into her slip with out any damage nor help. Better than my sail across the Gulf of Mexico with only a single crew. Keep sailing!! Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" On Aug 20, 2012, at 12:12 PM, mike farrell wrote: > > Thank you , Don you are too kind! This Cal list brings together sailors from all parts of North America. We have different and divergent experiences and opinions. Get 4 sailors together and you will get 5 different opinions. Sailors are a superstitous and traditional lot. Don't change something that has worked for 150 years. We are tough, resourceful and opinionated too! This forum is a treasure with passion and wisdom that has been gained the hard way. We earned it. > My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > From: Donald C Dutton <dn… [at] comcast.net> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Cc: Donald C Dutton <dn… [at] comcast.net> > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 11:30 AM > Subject: Re: New Sails? was Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?(Allen) > > > > Ditto. You are one of my favorite reads on this site. > > Don Dutton, 1986 Cal 33-2, "Quantum Evolution" > > PS You and that Chris guy… And Mike….. and that Doctor who owned a Cal 40… WOW what a list!!! Glad I bought a CAL. > > On Aug 19, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > >> >> Thank you Jerry. You are too kind. >> >> Allen >> >> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >> Allen, I think Wilkie has put in words thoughts we've all of us have had but haven't expressed for some time now. Keep up the good work, and if you don't you've already made a very admirable contribution to both our Cal group and the sailing community in general. I guess we're all a bit overwhelmed by it, sort of like Diana Nyad who is currently swimming from Havana Cuba to Key West with out a shark cage, and having already been stung several times by some of the world's nastiest jelly fish, or that limb-less fellow that swam the Bering Strait a few days ago, crowning some of his previous feats like the Channel swim and swim of the Strait of Gilbralter. >> Diana will be celebrating her 63 birthday Wednesday, the day she hopes to complete her swim. She set off on Saturday. I can't imagine staying awake that long, let alone swimming in the ocean continually that long! >> Jerry >> From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:51 PM >> >> Subject: Re: New Sails? was Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?(Allen) >> >> >> Thank you Wilkie. Nicest thing anyone has said to me in some time. >> >> Allen >> >> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 4:48 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Allen, >> >> I truly admire you. You are a man of unbridled energy and enthusiasm. I enjoy your contributions to sailing and this list. >> >> Wilkie >> >> >> >> On Aug 19, 2012, at 12:23 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> My L-36 tacks across 90 degrees but I do get out pointed by that damn C&C-41 that has the new fancy ass sails with the Russian beer bottle ads on them. Last year I could out point him. >> >> On used sails, I am going to put together a service that lists used sails from all over the country that will fit a specific boat. The idea is you would enter your boat and see a list of sails that fit and links to the seller. It will take some time as it is not top of the list yet. >> >> Allen >> >> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >> Allen, thanks for the suggestion. >> I am considering adding another batten in my mains'l, below the first and only reef point. There is a fold there just behind the mast, because when my sailmaker recut my mains'l, against his advice to just improve my back stay adjuster set up- which then was just a double loop of nylon braided strapping (now I have a triple pulley system) he just cut it down to the first reef point to save me some money. It will be a thin, narrow flexible one,which I'll glue and pop rivet in to streach out the fold at the mast. >> New sails? My main is just fifty years old! My genoa is newer, a North radial cut laminate that I picked up from a Santana 20 racer for $100. He has another one for me now, but this sail is holding up real well despite me beating it to death, in it's third or forth season since I got it (probably had three years racing on it previously), and only this year is the leech starting to cup to windward, which I might be able to finely adjust out with the leech line. I shortened that line recently 'cause it was too long to adjust on the Velcro pad. >> We'll see how it goes after the new batten goes in. I keep looking at the Minney's list, and the only sails that might fit are the Harbor 20's but they are mostly too short in the boom dimension. A new-new sail is out of my budget. >> I think the biggest problem in my pointing dept. is my low aspect full keel that draws 30" >> I will say that using a barber hauler, which is a pain in the butt, improves my pointing. I have two short lines each attached to the safety rail on the dog house, and small thumb triggered swivel shackles that do the trick. The biggest problem is when we forget to unhook the shackle before tacking, then it's a Chinese fire drill to unhook it. >> Best, >> Jerry >> >> From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:57 AM >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> 50 degrees??? New sails in your future? >> >> Allen >> >> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> It's a good thing we're having this discussion. IMHO a proper course upwind would be about 50 degrees off the wind, and anyone pointing higher is just a trouble maker, especially if he forces me to come up to the point where my boat looses way. %$#@!! >> Jerry >> PS: Sailing rules keep changing, maybe this rule is due for a change next time around. I agree, there are situations where it just doesn't seem fair. >> >> From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:16 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> free boats. >> >> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:41 PM, David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> wrote: >> >> >> As it turns out, if he had protested me and won, I believe I would have been forced to withdraw, a painful outcome since I did go on to win my first race of the year.... >> >> An old Salt racer from years past told me once that knowing the rules wasn't as important as knowing how a race committee would react to two skippers making opposing arguments. He once told me proper course was impossible to prove or dispute without impartial judges standing by. When I wanted to protest him he would tell me why I would win or lose. Pretty cool old guy, who raced the heck out of a Lapworth 24. He died in a home made aircraft wreck a few years ago and his son has taken up the torch and totally restored the old Lapworth. It's gorgeous, and I heard from a rigger that he spent a fortune doing it. >> >> Wilkie >> >> >> On Aug 18, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... >> >> Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE. >> >> Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in >> the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat >> has no proper course before her starting signal. >> >> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >> My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? >> >> From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. >> >> Allen >> >> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. >> >> From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. >> >> Allen >> >> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. >> Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. >> Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 >> My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 >> >> From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> >> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM >> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? >> >> >> >> Guys, >> >> Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. >> >> I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. >> >> He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. >> >> There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. >> >> Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. >> >> Wilkie >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > >

Mike et all, We know for sure that the leeward boat has the right of way. If it were not for racing rules, you would have to head up. So we have this racing rule that says if a boat was behind and is no longer behind and that happens within 2 boat lengths (now what exactly does 2 boat lengths mean?) then they can't sail higher than they would otherwise sail. The deal here is that they can't head you up to make it easier to pass them. I think this mainly applies to a beat where you can push someone to windward, make them luff, and in doing so get clear air and pass. What I am getting at is that I think you would have a difficult time showing that some sport boat going down wind was making you to up to gain some advantage and make it easier to pass you. Much more likely was that they were sailing their proper course and you were in the way. I think you lose every time. Just my 2 cents. Allen On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:23 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > ** > > > So then I need to keep polars on board for all boats and consult them > when some sprit boat hails me? I dont think so. I will continue to > conclude that the fastest course to the mark is the one with the shortest > distance. I will not give in to some boats who screams come up, come up! > We will see who triumphs in the little room. > My Best, Mike > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2012 2:40 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not > racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I > guess it can teach the other guy... > > Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or > page 2 of my racing rules page HERE<http://l-36.com/read_html.php?file=rules&text1=rules_intro&title=When%20Boats%20Meet&image1=crash&image2=Sit> > . > > *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as > possible in > the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A > boat > has no *proper course *before her starting signal. > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > ** > > My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply > particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing > another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a > boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing > the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? > Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark > roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat > the right to sail her proper course. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > ** > > My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the > windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail > above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and > overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have > hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in > the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper > course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the > same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down > wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does > not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we > are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing > deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If > this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the > little room. > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of > way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said > they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is > entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. > > Allen > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > ** > > Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both > sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 > cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which > tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to > the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. > A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more > than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw > differently. > Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with > the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard > as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river > I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail > faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the > sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. > Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea > that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we > agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on > board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 > My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 > > *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? > > > > Guys, > > Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark > at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through > our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, > but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I > didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger > boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. > > I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said > he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. > I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we > discussed his claims. > > He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, > but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his > assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends > other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last > night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed > us down and put us off of our gybe. > > There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running > against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. > > Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach > were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made > a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much > farther apart than this and I understood his point. > > Wilkie > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I agree, Allen. Mike would lose. An asym chute boat can easily show that that her fastest course to the mark (their proper course) is tacking down wind. Wilkie (as I recall he was our original tackling dummy) in his 29 could be sailing closer to dead down with better speed for his boat. Good to remember that "fair" and "rules" (or "laws" for that matter) are not necessarily related. Rules are a set processes and procedures for the conduct of some enterprise, not a specification for fairness. Those who make rules often have a bias to favor their case. In the RRS, it appears that the bias is toward the newer wifty asym canoe bottom boats. If one is going dead downwind, one possible salvation is to always be on starboard tack (boom to port). If the asym is coming in on port tack and yells "leeward boat", then you can yell back "starboard" (with an appropriate expletive). At least this would work half the time. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike et all, We know for sure that the leeward boat has the right of way. If it were not for racing rules, you would have to head up. So we have this racing rule that says if a boat was behind and is no longer behind and that happens within 2 boat lengths (now what exactly does 2 boat lengths mean?) then they can't sail higher than they would otherwise sail. The deal here is that they can't head you up to make it easier to pass them. I think this mainly applies to a beat where you can push someone to windward, make them luff, and in doing so get clear air and pass. What I am getting at is that I think you would have a difficult time showing that some sport boat going down wind was making you to up to gain some advantage and make it easier to pass you. Much more likely was that they were sailing their proper course and you were in the way. I think you lose every time. Just my 2 cents. Allen On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:23 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:ve… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: So then I need to keep polars on board for all boats and consult them when some sprit boat hails me? I dont think so. I will continue to conclude that the fastest course to the mark is the one with the shortest distance. I will not give in to some boats who screams come up, come up! We will see who triumphs in the little room. My Best, Mike From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com>> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE<http://l-36.com/read_html.php?file=rules&text1=rules_intro&title=When%20Boats%20Meet&image1=crash&image2=Sit>. Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal. On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:ve… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com>> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:ve… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com>> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:ve… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com<mailto:dw… [at] me.com>> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Guys, Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. Wilkie ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

On 8/20/2012 3:12 PM, mike farrell wrote: > This Cal list brings together sailors from all parts of North > America. We have different and divergent experiences and opinions. > Get 4 sailors together and you will get 5 different opinions. Sailors > are a superstitous and traditional lot. Don't change something that > has worked for 150 years. We are tough, resourceful and opinionated > too! This forum is a treasure with passion and wisdom that has been > gained the hard way. We earned it. It seems to me that sailors are an interesting bunch because we actually do things--we operate boats in a very unforgiving environment, and one that can be uncomfortable and frightening. It can also be idyllic. But we take on a responsibility for our own safety and that of any crew or passengers. That makes it a different kind of recreational activity. It makes it fun, too. Chris Campbell

OK, Trying to get my mind around this scenario. And since my racing experience is minimal, racing rules are not my strong point. However, I have been sailing and boating for several years and my understanding is the "racing rules" follow the "rules of the road" for basic sailing. Clarifications are needed when two or more boats are trying to compete for the same space at marks or bouys. Please correct the following observations in my logic. -At some point, boat A (faster sport/racing boat with Asymmetrical rig) I behind boat B (sailing a shorter, slower, direct route) -since boat A is sailing faster, and wanting to make his "pass" directly thru boat B, he requires boat B to alter course IMHO, Boat A has the responsibility to execute his "pass" without affecting the course of Boat B, Boat B is required to hold his current course so boat A can adjust his course accordingly. If both boat A and B are "even" after rounding the previous mark, and boat B is sailing a shorter, more direct route to the next mark, even being slower than boat A, shouldn't this should be the "proper" course for both boats? Where am I failing in this logic? Just John, From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 4:04 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? I agree, Allen. Mike would lose. An asym chute boat can easily show that that her fastest course to the mark (their proper course) is tacking down wind. Wilkie (as I recall he was our original tackling dummy) in his 29 could be sailing closer to dead down with better speed for his boat. Good to remember that "fair" and "rules" (or "laws" for that matter) are not necessarily related. Rules are a set processes and procedures for the conduct of some enterprise, not a specification for fairness. Those who make rules often have a bias to favor their case. In the RRS, it appears that the bias is toward the newer wifty asym canoe bottom boats. If one is going dead downwind, one possible salvation is to always be on starboard tack (boom to port). If the asym is coming in on port tack and yells "leeward boat", then you can yell back "starboard" (with an appropriate expletive). At least this would work half the time. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:32 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike et all, We know for sure that the leeward boat has the right of way. If it were not for racing rules, you would have to head up. So we have this racing rule that says if a boat was behind and is no longer behind and that happens within 2 boat lengths (now what exactly does 2 boat lengths mean?) then they can't sail higher than they would otherwise sail. The deal here is that they can't head you up to make it easier to pass them. I think this mainly applies to a beat where you can push someone to windward, make them luff, and in doing so get clear air and pass. What I am getting at is that I think you would have a difficult time showing that some sport boat going down wind was making you to up to gain some advantage and make it easier to pass you. Much more likely was that they were sailing their proper course and you were in the way. I think you lose every time. Just my 2 cents. Allen On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:23 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: So then I need to keep polars on board for all boats and consult them when some sprit boat hails me? I dont think so. I will continue to conclude that the fastest course to the mark is the one with the shortest distance. I will not give in to some boats who screams come up, come up! We will see who triumphs in the little room. My Best, Mike From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I guess it can teach the other guy... Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or page 2 of my racing rules page HERE <http://l-36.com/read_html.php?file=rules&text1=rules_intro&title=When%20Boa ts%20Meet&image1=crash&image2=Sit> . Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal. On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest? From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat the right to sail her proper course. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the little room. From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. Allen On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw differently. Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat. Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3 My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 From: David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz? Guys, Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we discussed his claims. He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed us down and put us off of our gybe. There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much farther apart than this and I understood his point. Wilkie ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

The interesting thing about this case is that for all the talk about proper course, that rule did not apply (because the boat was on its proper course). The only rules that apply to this situation are the standard rules of the road and in this case we are talking about is that a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat. Same as if not racing. But the implication is that boat A has the right of way over boat B because they are side by side (overlapped). Until they get side by side, boat B, being ahead, would have the right of way as boat A cannot ram him from behind. But once overlapped boat A can force boat B to head up. We had a wonderful example of this last winter when I was crewing on a T-10. We rounded a mark with spinnakers up on the outside with the inside boat also with spinnaker up. We were neck and neck except we got our spinnaker down first and headed the other boat up into the wind. On a beat with a spinnaker up was ugly and as I looked back all I could see was a spinnaker wrapped several times around a forestay. We were on our proper course so no racing rule applied. The other boat was not on their proper course (upwind with spinnaker up is not proper) but the proper course rule never applies to the windward boat anyway so no racing rules applied. Just the rules of the road. Allen On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:40 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: > ** > > > OK, Trying to get my mind around this scenario. And since my racing > experience is minimal, racing rules are not my strong point. However, I > have been sailing and boating for several years and my understanding is the > “racing rules” follow the “rules of the road” for basic sailing. > Clarifications are needed when two or more boats are trying to compete for > the same space at marks or bouys. Please correct the following > observations in my logic.**** > > ** ** > > -At some point, boat A (faster sport/racing boat with Asymmetrical rig) I > behind boat B (sailing a shorter, slower, direct route)**** > > -since boat A is sailing faster, and wanting to make his “pass” directly > thru boat B, he requires boat B to alter course**** > > ** ** > > IMHO, Boat A has the responsibility to execute his “pass” without > affecting the course of Boat B, Boat B is required to hold his current > course so boat A can adjust his course accordingly.**** > > ** ** > > If both boat A and B are “even” after rounding the previous mark, and boat > B is sailing a shorter, more direct route to the next mark, even being > slower than boat A, shouldn’t this should be the “proper” course for both > boats?**** > > ** ** > > Where am I failing in this logic?**** > > ** ** > > Just John,**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) > *Sent:* Monday, August 20, 2012 4:04 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?**** > > ** ** > > **** > > I agree, Allen. Mike would lose. An asym chute boat can easily show that > that her fastest course to the mark (their proper course) is tacking down > wind. Wilkie (as I recall he was our original tackling dummy) in his 29 > could be sailing closer to dead down with better speed for his boat. Good > to remember that “fair” and “rules” (or “laws” for that matter) are not > necessarily related. Rules are a set processes and procedures for the > conduct of some enterprise, not a specification for fairness. Those who > make rules often have a bias to favor their case. In the RRS, it appears > that the bias is toward the newer wifty asym canoe bottom boats.**** > > **** > > If one is going dead downwind, one possible salvation is to always be on > starboard tack (boom to port). If the asym is coming in on port tack and > yells “leeward boat”, then you can yell back “starboard” (with an > appropriate expletive). At least this would work half the time.**** > > **** > > Cheers**** > > Charlie**** > > **** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] > *On Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Monday, August 20, 2012 3:32 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?**** > > **** > > > > Mike et all,**** > > **** > > We know for sure that the leeward boat has the right of way. If it were > not for racing rules, you would have to head up. So we have this racing > rule that says if a boat was behind and is no longer behind and that > happens within 2 boat lengths (now what exactly does 2 boat lengths mean?) > then they can't sail higher than they would otherwise sail. The deal here > is that they can't head you up to make it easier to pass them. I think > this mainly applies to a beat where you can push someone to windward, make > them luff, and in doing so get clear air and pass. **** > > **** > > What I am getting at is that I think you would have a difficult time > showing that some sport boat going down wind was making you to up to gain > some advantage and make it easier to pass you. Much more likely was that > they were sailing their proper course and you were in the way. I think you > lose every time.**** > > **** > > Just my 2 cents.**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:23 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > So then I need to keep polars on board for all boats and consult them > when some sprit boat hails me? I dont think so. I will continue to > conclude that the fastest course to the mark is the one with the shortest > distance. I will not give in to some boats who screams come up, come up! > We will see who triumphs in the little room.**** > > My Best, Mike**** > > **** > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com **** > > *Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2012 2:40 PM**** > > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?**** > > **** > > > > Good questions. Not sure what good it does to protest a boat you are not > racing against anyway. Do they give you a time adjustment if you win? I > guess it can teach the other guy... **** > > **** > > Here is the definition of proper course from page 152 of the rule book or > page 2 of my racing rules page HERE<http://l-36.com/read_html.php?file=rules&text1=rules_intro&title=When%20Boats%20Meet&image1=crash&image2=Sit> > .**** > > **** > > *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as > possible in**** > > the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A > boat**** > > has no *proper course *before her starting signal.**** > > **** > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > My rule book is on my boat. I will look up the sections that apply > particularly the definition of "Proper Course". If the M24 was sailing > another course, then both boats could have been on proper course. Can a > boat sailing a different course win a protest against a boat not sailing > the same course? Will the protest committee hear that protest?**** > > **** > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com **** > > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 9:59 PM **** > > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?**** > > **** > > > > Mike, what rule says you have the right to sail your proper course? > Proper course is only mentioned in rules 17 and 18 and 18 deals with mark > roundings, which I assumed was not the case here. 17 does not give a boat > the right to sail her proper course. **** > > **** > > Allen**** > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:40 PM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > My take on this is : Yes the windward boat must keep clear but the > windward boat sailing a proper course to the mark cannot be made to sail > above her proper course to the mark. Overlap and boat lengths and > overtaking boat does not apply in this situation. David Owen could have > hailed that he was sailing the proper course. Were both boats sailing in > the same regatta and sailing to the same reach mark? If so then proper > course would have been the same for both of them from the same place to the > same mark. If I sail DDW on the stb gybe and a boat tacking/gybing down > wind because it needs to for boat speed is faster and comes by me he does > not have the right to demand a course change if he is on port gybe. If we > are both on the same stb gybe and he is sailing faster but I am sailing > deeper and the windward boat I will make a move to come up a little. If > this does not satisfy the leeward boat and he taps me out then we go to the > little room.**** > > **** > > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 11:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?**** > > **** > > > > Mike, I don't think you are correct. The leeward boat has the right of > way. If the windward boat was sailing HER proper course, which the OP said > they were, then rule 17 does not apply and only rule 11. The other boat is > entitled to sail their proper course and the OP is required to keep clear. > **** > > **** > > Allen**** > > On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > Were you sailing your proper course to the mark? Were you both > sailing to the same mark? If the answer is yes to both questions the m24 > cannot make you come up just because it is a sprit /a chute boat which > tacks down wind. I doubt that if you were sailing the "proper" course to > the mark he was too. I would not have come up and let the m24 protest me. > A protest is not a 50%- 50% deal. I have been talked out of and lost more > than I have won. People tell astonishing versions of events that I saw > differently. **** > > Sailing out of the Napa river in the SSS Vallejo 1-2 last year with > the sportboats I had the pole back and the sprit boats screamed starboard > as they crossed my bow( I was also on stbd.) Toward the mouth of the river > I got a PT boat begging for mercy. " What do you want me to do?" "Sail > faster" was my reply with a big smile. He was also a lot bigger and the > sound of two boats in collision is not an event I wish to repeat.**** > > Good sportmanship requires the offended boat to protest. The idea > that protests are frowned upon is not valid. Respect the rules that we > agree to race under. Protest those who will not follow the rules. Carry on > board a copy of the rules, protest forms and a red flag---use all 3**** > > My Best Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313**** > > **** > > *From:* David Owen <dw… [at] me.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2012 8:49 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Racing Rules Quiz?**** > > > > > Guys, > > Last night, Mariposa was on a broad spinnaker reach to the reaching mark > at good speed when a Melges 24 came planing up out of the mist and through > our fleet and called to take me up. I refused, saying he had overtaken me, > but he said that he was the leeward boat and he would protest me if I > didn't come up. He was going gangbusters and came out from behind a larger > boat that I was in a position to box out of the mark rounding. > > I told him he was the overtaking boat and couldn't take me up, but he said > he was on proper course and that he came from the "left" not from behind. > I let him go by, but my crew berated him as he slid under us and we > discussed his claims. > > He could easily have run a little deeper and gone past me without drama, > but I realize that his fastest course intersected mine due to his > assymetrical spinnaker on a long sprit. The race committee never sends > other fleets to the reaching mark, but for some reason they did last > night. We were having a good race and resented the intrusion as it slowed > us down and put us off of our gybe. > > There were a number of different opinions on my crew, mostly running > against the other skipper, but I wasn't so sure that he was wrong. > > Anybody familiar with this aspect of the rules? His reach and my reach > were no more than 80 to 10 degrees apart by my estimation. A Farr 40 made > a similar claim against me in a race last year, but our courses were much > farther apart than this and I understood his point. > > Wilkie > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > > > > > **** > > **** > > >