RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal T2 Keel crack/leak

I saw some of that material when I was cutting up a CAL 25 (yeah, had to do it). It looked like porous mortar. Seems it was used to fill around the lead slug in the keel and more along the back of the keel inside. Might have been a porous filler put into the poly resin. Chipped up very easily. Those clumps might have been "original equipment". Cheers Charlie Annapolis From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tifredricks Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:40 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] [Cal_Boats] Re: Cal T2 Keel crack/leak This has been awesome. I've read the list since I bought Now a year ago. When I came across this problem I counted on the coast to coast response. Armed with the advise received here I'm more inclined to tackle this. I will seek the assistance of someone more versed in 'glass work than myself particular for the build up inside the keel. It's clear this requires proper build up and patience. I'm beginning to think the clumps of material at the aft end of the bilge are what remains of resin poured in the space, most likely by a PO. Thanks again. More to follow on this Tomas --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Randy <saylorran@...> wrote: > > my keel wiggles on Out Patient but not like Mariposas or Zuma Jay did so I figure I have some time. > >  The Cal 25 Zuma Jay had a crack along her keel and was leaking from > the inside of her keel. She was hauled and they redid the outside but > she still leaked when they put her back in the water. Her skipper did > kinda what Wilkie did. > > She is out pointing me now.  So maybe next time she is out Ill take a hard look at it. > > Sent from my Samsung Epicâ"¢ 4G > > David Owen <dwilkieo@...> wrote: > > > > My Cal 29 had an alarming amount of wiggle when the boat came out of > the water a few years ago.  I consulted with many, including the late Roger Jones, who said it was not normal and the horizontal surface cracks were a sign of looming dangerous problems.  I am pretty sure that the main fault was broken tabbing and a compromised floor pan and engine stringer construction.  It looked like somebody hacked out the original fiberglass engine stringers to replace the faryman diesel with a BMW D12, but judging by photos I've seen online, it may be that the vertical wooden engine stringers were glassed in by the factory when they decided to add the diesel option.  My opinion is that this, along with really light weight and crummy tabbing caused the keel to flex more than it was designed too, thus weakening the layup. > > My cure was to cut out the salon sole from the pan, grind out all of the oily, soggy matt that was loosely glued under the sole, reinforce the keel box, redesign the floors, replace the cabin sole with plywood and re-tab everything.  It was a huge job, and I should have just thrown poor old Mariposa away instead of spending the money, but I've gone too far with her for that.  I had two helpers when it was time to lay the tri-ax panels in and through the bilge.  One saturated the cloth in a special pan in the cockpit, and the other took the cloth and handed it down, while I rolled and squeegied it in.  We used release cloth at the end of the day, but mostly applied layers to green layers to avoid sanding and created a cross-linked chemical bond. > > After the keel and hull were reinforced, I epoxied in 2 layers of 1/4 marine plywood, followed by a 1/4 plywood teak and holly veneer. > > It worked out beautifully, and she sails very stiff.  She accelerates into the puffs instead of yawing. > > I am sorry to say that I lost all of the photos that I had taken to document this process -- my hard drive crashed and my backup disc had failed me as well. > > Wilkie >  > > On Oct 16, 2012, at 10:45 AM, george macon <george_macon@...> wrote: > > > > My Cal 25 keel wobbled and I ground out a horizontal crack from tip to > tail and re-glassed it. I was told however, by the yard I stayed at, > that this was uncommon, even for a flexi-cal 25. My boat may have been > grounded very hard. > > > George Macon > > > > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > From: sobel_solar@... > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 10:37:35 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal T2 Keel crack/leak > > > David, you the man. > So, the fiberglass cloth you buy at west marine is really incompatible with West Systems? Why don't the expoxy mfg's and retailers tell us about this, for crying out loud? > > I made the gross mistake of using epoxy paste system kit...I forget the name of the stuff, but it's the one the makers claim you can use for engine repair, it comes in a white box, to fix a dent in my bow when I smacked a small steel navigation buoy some years ago (the darn buoy wasn't watching were I was going!). The gel coat I put on top of the repair didn't want to stick to the repaired area, was a bitch to cure, and now it's slowly chipping off. The color didn't match anyway, so I suppose I should have just smoothed the epoxy paste as best I could and painted over the repair with one part urethane or just used some spray paint. > > When I bought Shpritz I discovered the source of the water in the forward bilge was some small cracks in the keel, apparently from a grounding. I fixed THAT with a bondo-like polyester repair kit with fiberglass reinforcement fibers in it, and it's held. But that crack wasn't structural from flexing like the Cal 27 appears to have. > > I bought an owned a Cal 25 for a few weeks. It one of the oldest of those boats and had originally belonged to a Navy sailing club. I noticed that when you went over some odd swells, the keel would do a little "woop-de-doo" wiggle which was, to me, scary, and I was glad to sell her back to someone else on E-Bay. I wonder how the few remaining Ca 25's that actually get taken out of their slips and sailed hard regularly, are holding up? Has there ever been a Cal that lost its keel catastrophically? I would guess the keel would stress crack and leak before that would happen, but I can imagine that wouldn't be cool if it happened far off shore. > Jerry > From: David Owen <dwilkieo@...> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 6:43 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal > T2 Keel crack/leak > >  > > > This is a known fault on the Cal 27 hull. I've seen this repaired. If you don't have experience working with epoxy, then buy some of the Gougeon Brothers publications and read up. You will need a powerful grinder -- a 4" will work, but it's easier with a 7 or 9 except for the inside portion. > > In working with epoxy, you need to be cautious about using roving. It > is a product designed originally for polyester resin and has a styrene > binder added that is incompatable with epoxy. Use bi or tri- axial > cloth instead that is engineered for epoxy -- it's much stronger > anyway and smoother and easier to fair. I suggest you grind it back > both outside and inside for about 18" from the cracks. Taper the grind > so you will have one layer of glass at the perimeter and several in > the center of the cracks. Do the outside to your satisfaction and then > dig in and do the inside after the outside has cured. > > If you aren't handy and don't own the grinder(s) you might ask the > yard what they would charge to do it. Pay attention to the safety > material when grinding this stuff and working with solvents. A 3M > professional respirator is a must. > > Hope this helps. > > Wilkie > > On Oct 15, 2012, at 8:05 PM, tifredricks <tifredricks@...> wrote: > > Hello all, I'm looking forward to hearing from the collective wisdom. After a short sail on Saturday I noticed the seepage into the bilge had increased significantly (Bilge filled within an hour). With the help of friends I was able to haul her out and noted the crack at rear of the keel. At the time I thought the leak was from the stuffing box, but it was actually from the rear of the bilge. I've enclosed photos in an album titled "Cal T2 Now". Earlier this summer, after a bottom job I removed a clump of what seemed like concrete out of the rear of the bilge. At the time I thought it was an accumulation of muck, now I wonder if it was something structural. > I'm short on expertise, and wonder if I can repair this by grinding > down the area around the crack, and perform a fiberglass repair. Also > I wonder if I should build up the area inside the keel > > Thanks in advance > Tomas Fredricks > Cal T2 #136 > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links