Re: [Cal_Boats] LAW SUIT

Chris - In regard to sailing alone and captain stress, as much as I love to race I really don't enjoy spinnaker in higher winds because so much is out of my control as captain/helmsman, especially since we don't get to fly it on a regular basis. I am still amazed at how often I have to yell "watch your head" even when we are not flying spinnaker. As far as sailing alone though it always makes me think of this quote "Misery can take care of itself alone, pure joy needs to be shared" Paul In a message dated 10/25/2012 9:32:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cc… [at] lsnm.org writes: On 10/24/2012 11:44 PM, DouglasJ wrote: The mysterious SoCal race deaths takes a new turn. A survivor family is suing the captain's survivor family. This is another reason I love single-handed sailing. I sail single-handed 95% of the time, just because I like going sailing and do it a lot. But it's important for all of us to realize that when we take others along, we do have responsibilities for their safety and well-being. (Why did my text just change??). It's one of those things that we ought to think about often--but often don't until something like this reminds us. Our obligations are legal but also moral. When we do training for new crew members on our local schooner, I discuss the old tradition of crew griping about the captain. I remind them that our captains take on a huge responsibility when they set sail with a large boat and a mostly older, amateur crew. They're responsible for getting the boat and its crew safely home again. It's easy to second guess when you don't have that responsibility. Chris Campbell

Is it possible you can post a copy of the statement? I think it is a good idea, exactly for the reasons of the author. Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara, Ca. In a message dated 10/25/2012 10:15:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ch… [at] gmail.com writes: It may sound silly but a friend on mine for this exact reason has everyone who came on board, including me sign a release that was basically a "force majour" statement releasing him and his estate from all liabilities and obligations. He was a contract manager so it was a pretty good document. You came on board willingly and at you own risk and gave up your rights and that of you family should you not come home in one piece. When I asked him why...his response was interesting. While I am the captain of this vessel, and am responsible for everyone and everything on board, the legal system is so twisted that someone could sue me if they decide to do something foolish, say break their ankle while horsing around on a non assigned task. People are silly that way and no longer respect the sea and it power. Hmm I though good answer. /ch

Chris, would it be possible as AirTime requested, that you can share the legal doc your friend uses? I would very much like to see the type of protective language he uses. Everyone else: Does anyone out there also use such a document? Does anyone worry about the liability aspect? I am especially interested in hearing from those of you who race with non-family crew. I am also curious to know how many of you share the opinion that such a document would make you reticent to crew. Trying to get an idea of how a cross section of Cal owners deal with the issue of liability. Regards, Wayne From: "ai… [at] aol.com" <ai… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] LAW SUIT Is it possible you can post a copy of the statement? I think it is a good idea, exactly for the reasons of the author.Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara, Ca. In a message dated 10/25/2012 10:15:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ch… [at] gmail.com writes: >It may sound silly but a friend on mine for this exact reason has everyone who came on board, including me sign a release that was basically a "force majour" statement releasing him and his estate from all liabilities and obligations. He was a contract manager so it was a pretty good document. You came on board willingly and at you own risk and gave up your rights and that of you family should you not come home in one piece. When I asked him why...his response was interesting. > >While I am the captain of this vessel, and am responsible for everyone and everything on board, the legal system is so twisted that someone could sue me if they decide to do something foolish, say break their ankle while horsing around on a non assigned task. People are silly that way and no longer respect the sea and it power. Hmm I though good answer. > >/ch > >

Wayne...I don't have access to the document. He and his vessel were lost in the Caribbean a few years back. What I can tell you is that it was very gentle and written lighthearted (explaining what the expectations of crew were) so as to not offend anyone. The main caveat was something along these lines. "In joining this crew and voyage I hereby agree to the terms and conditions of this document and voyage, and will hold the captain, his heirs, estate and insurer, harmless and without further liability in the event of injury or death resulting from all causes not excluding natural, made made, errors and omission, due diligence or acts of God " "To this document I add my seal or signature in good faith and without prejudice" "Date, location and time" "Witness" The top portion was a section on what the expectations were of crew in a list format. Just keep it light hearted and friendly as to what is expected of crew. Simple things like, eg: when the captain makes a request its not really a request its called an order and as such its a call to action that is to be carried out immediately. If requested to complete a task do it now. Its not a time to reflect on gee I dont really want to do that, that can wait till I have finished my coffee. Just lay out how you want your boat run, with a touch of humour so that everyone is on the same page. Keep it light its supposed to be fun. /ch On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Wayne Gillikin <wa… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > > Chris, would it be possible as AirTime requested, that you can share the > legal doc your friend uses? I would very much like to see the type of > protective language he uses. > > Everyone else: Does anyone out there also use such a document? Does > anyone worry about the liability aspect? I am especially interested in > hearing from those of you who race with non-family crew. > > I am also curious to know how many of you share the opinion that such a > document would make you reticent to crew. > > Trying to get an idea of how a cross section of Cal owners deal with the > issue of liability. > > Regards, > Wayne > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "ai… [at] aol.com" <ai… [at] aol.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:34 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] LAW SUIT > > > Is it possible you can post a copy of the statement? I think it is a > good idea, exactly for the reasons of the author. > Daniel Casey > "AirTime" > Cal 9.2R #75 > Santa Barbara, Ca. > > In a message dated 10/25/2012 10:15:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > ch… [at] gmail.com writes: > > > It may sound silly but a friend on mine for this exact reason has everyone > who came on board, including me sign a release that was basically a "force > majour" statement releasing him and his estate from all liabilities and > obligations. He was a contract manager so it was a pretty good document. > You came on board willingly and at you own risk and gave up your rights and > that of you family should you not come home in one piece. When I asked him > why...his response was interesting. > > While I am the captain of this vessel, and am responsible for everyone and > everything on board, the legal system is so twisted that someone could sue > me if they decide to do something foolish, say break their ankle while > horsing around on a non assigned task. People are silly that way and no > longer respect the sea and it power. Hmm I though good answer. > > /ch > > > > > > -- /ch

Here's a personal example of what I am talking about. Most folks out on a day trip want to have fun. Especially those who have never sailed before. They do need to have some basic understanding what it means to be on a vessel and who is in charge and that there are both good and dangerous components to being on board. I took a close friend out for a day on the Ottawa River several years back on my CS22. Him and his two kids 6--7 Nice kids, we had a blast. The kids went swimming, we anchored off a local island had lunch, kids swam some more. No booze, I don't allow alcohol on board, only at the dock or anchor when overnight. Nice BBQ etc. On the way home I looked up river. Holly *&*& shit. Totally black clouds up the valley and putting the bino's on I saw the local fleet boats bare poled and over at 20 degrees or more. About 10 miles up river. The area is known for really really bad winds that can come out of no where. 50 mph is not uncommon. So I immediately started the motor calmly, told my buddy to look at the sky, told him we have to get back immediately, the kids need to get down below and he was to hold the tiller till I took the sails down. Everyone was in a life jacket. What was the response as he took the tiller, "don't tell my kids what to do, stay on deck and sit over here". I just looked at him, told him I was responsible for those kids and I want them below decks now as the shit is going to hit the fan. Nope...same response more adamantly then before. So what are my options. Throw him overboard, start a brawl, insist on having it my way .....nope I just said, "Buddy, they are your kids, your responsibility if they die its on you. We are going to be in 50 mph winds in about 10 minutes. Take care of your kids, I gotta take care of the boat and get us home safely." Never invited him back. Now would a piece of paper help. Perhaps. But at least it puts everyone on the same page before you start. No sig-ey...no go-ey Get it. And say it with a smile. Then shove off and count your blessing, another solo day on the boat in peace..:) /ch

We are not a litigative society like you guys. My interest in having folks read a document is more at the expectation level and who is in charge and that at some point it may get life threatening and what to do about it. That is far more important then the cover your ass stuff. Also I don't race folks who came on my boats were friends or acquaintances who wanted a nice day out. They need to understand however that there is only one person in charge and if asked to do something, the response should be immediate and without question. That is the main principle of safe boating with respect to communicating between owner/skipper/captn and crew/folks_on_board/girlfriends/galleyslaves/rail meat/. Rail meat....well give them a break or two...were all getting older and need a break too.>) /ch

I race with non family crew but most of them are lawyers so I don't stand a chance anyway. Hell, one of my crew was on the cover of American Lawyer Magazine! IMHO, life is too short to worry about this stuff. Go race, have fun. If I kill someone, the legal aspect of it is going to be the last thing on my mind. I sign a waver to race. My crew does not. Allen On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Wayne Gillikin <wa… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > ** > > > Chris, would it be possible as AirTime requested, that you can share the > legal doc your friend uses? I would very much like to see the type of > protective language he uses. > > Everyone else: Does anyone out there also use such a document? Does > anyone worry about the liability aspect? I am especially interested in > hearing from those of you who race with non-family crew. > > I am also curious to know how many of you share the opinion that such a > document would make you reticent to crew. > > Trying to get an idea of how a cross section of Cal owners deal with the > issue of liability. > > Regards, > Wayne > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "ai… [at] aol.com" <ai… [at] aol.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:34 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] LAW SUIT > > > Is it possible you can post a copy of the statement? I think it is a > good idea, exactly for the reasons of the author. > Daniel Casey > "AirTime" > Cal 9.2R #75 > Santa Barbara, Ca. > > In a message dated 10/25/2012 10:15:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > ch… [at] gmail.com writes: > > > It may sound silly but a friend on mine for this exact reason has everyone > who came on board, including me sign a release that was basically a "force > majour" statement releasing him and his estate from all liabilities and > obligations. He was a contract manager so it was a pretty good document. > You came on board willingly and at you own risk and gave up your rights and > that of you family should you not come home in one piece. When I asked him > why...his response was interesting. > > While I am the captain of this vessel, and am responsible for everyone and > everything on board, the legal system is so twisted that someone could sue > me if they decide to do something foolish, say break their ankle while > horsing around on a non assigned task. People are silly that way and no > longer respect the sea and it power. Hmm I though good answer. > > /ch > > > > >

Good luck finding a legal document that will protect you from an injury or loss where you fail to meet the standard of care or have been negligent. Keep your boats well maintained and show a track record of replaced at suggested intervals rather than broken before replace. Mark Cal 229 San Pedro ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Edwards To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] LAW SUIT (Chris123) I race with non family crew but most of them are lawyers so I don't stand a chance anyway. Hell, one of my crew was on the cover of American Lawyer Magazine! IMHO, life is too short to worry about this stuff. Go race, have fun. If I kill someone, the legal aspect of it is going to be the last thing on my mind. I sign a waver to race. My crew does not. Allen On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Wayne Gillikin <wa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Chris, would it be possible as AirTime requested, that you can share the legal doc your friend uses? I would very much like to see the type of protective language he uses. Everyone else: Does anyone out there also use such a document? Does anyone worry about the liability aspect? I am especially interested in hearing from those of you who race with non-family crew. I am also curious to know how many of you share the opinion that such a document would make you reticent to crew. Trying to get an idea of how a cross section of Cal owners deal with the issue of liability. Regards, Wayne ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ai… [at] aol.com" <ai… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] LAW SUIT Is it possible you can post a copy of the statement? I think it is a good idea, exactly for the reasons of the author. Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara, Ca. In a message dated 10/25/2012 10:15:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ch… [at] gmail.com writes: It may sound silly but a friend on mine for this exact reason has everyone who came on board, including me sign a release that was basically a "force majour" statement releasing him and his estate from all liabilities and obligations. He was a contract manager so it was a pretty good document. You came on board willingly and at you own risk and gave up your rights and that of you family should you not come home in one piece. When I asked him why...his response was interesting. While I am the captain of this vessel, and am responsible for everyone and everything on board, the legal system is so twisted that someone could sue me if they decide to do something foolish, say break their ankle while horsing around on a non assigned task. People are silly that way and no longer respect the sea and it power. Hmm I though good answer. /ch __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7631 (20121026) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7631 (20121026) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

I don't think anyone is looking for a document that effectively shields their negligence. However, given the litigious nature of today's society it may help to have a document that says everyone understands the risks, have had ample opportunity to evaluate the vessel and crew, have made a free and independent decision to participate, and accepts that excrement happens notwithstanding competent planning and preparation. Even I don't think this would keep you out of court. However, it might help outsiders (the court) to understand the state of mind of the crew. Regards, Wayne On Oct 26, 2012, at 4:14 PM, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MAS Consulting\)" <ma… [at] cox.net> wrote: > Good luck finding a legal document that will protect you from an injury or loss where you fail to meet the standard of care or have been negligent. > Keep your boats well maintained and show a track record of replaced at suggested intervals rather than broken before replace. > Mark > Cal 229 > San Pedro > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Allen Edwards > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 12:04 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] LAW SUIT (Chris123) > > > I race with non family crew but most of them are lawyers so I don't stand a chance anyway. Hell, one of my crew was on the cover of American Lawyer Magazine! IMHO, life is too short to worry about this stuff. Go race, have fun. If I kill someone, the legal aspect of it is going to be the last thing on my mind. > > > I sign a waver to race. My crew does not. > > Allen > > > > On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Wayne Gillikin <wa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> Chris, would it be possible as AirTime requested, that you can share the legal doc your friend uses? I would very much like to see the type of protective language he uses. >> >> Everyone else: Does anyone out there also use such a document? Does anyone worry about the liability aspect? I am especially interested in hearing from those of you who race with non-family crew. >> >> I am also curious to know how many of you share the opinion that such a document would make you reticent to crew. >> >> Trying to get an idea of how a cross section of Cal owners deal with the issue of liability. >> >> Regards, >> Wayne >> >> From: "ai… [at] aol.com" <ai… [at] aol.com> >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:34 PM >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] LAW SUIT >> >> >> Is it possible you can post a copy of the statement? I think it is a good idea, exactly for the reasons of the author. >> Daniel Casey >> "AirTime" >> Cal 9.2R #75 >> Santa Barbara, Ca. >> >> In a message dated 10/25/2012 10:15:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ch… [at] gmail.com writes: >> >> It may sound silly but a friend on mine for this exact reason has everyone who came on board, including me sign a release that was basically a "force majour" statement releasing him and his estate from all liabilities and obligations. He was a contract manager so it was a pretty good document. You came on board willingly and at you own risk and gave up your rights and that of you family should you not come home in one piece. When I asked him why...his response was interesting. >> >> While I am the captain of this vessel, and am responsible for everyone and everything on board, the legal system is so twisted that someone could sue me if they decide to do something foolish, say break their ankle while horsing around on a non assigned task. People are silly that way and no longer respect the sea and it power. Hmm I though good answer. >> >> /ch >> >> >> > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7631 (20121026) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7631 (20121026) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com >

One might accomplish same level of protection and recite off a laminated index card before each voyage an explanation of the risks involved in sailing as well as any safety procedures, equipment available and how to use.... Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Gillikin To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] LAW SUIT (Chris123) I don't think anyone is looking for a document that effectively shields their negligence. However, given the litigious nature of today's society it may help to have a document that says everyone understands the risks, have had ample opportunity to evaluate the vessel and crew, have made a free and independent decision to participate, and accepts that excrement happens notwithstanding competent planning and preparation. Even I don't think this would keep you out of court. However, it might help outsiders (the court) to understand the state of mind of the crew. Regards, Wayne On Oct 26, 2012, at 4:14 PM, "Mark Alan Stahnke \(MAS Consulting\)" <ma… [at] cox.net> wrote: Good luck finding a legal document that will protect you from an injury or loss where you fail to meet the standard of care or have been negligent. Keep your boats well maintained and show a track record of replaced at suggested intervals rather than broken before replace. Mark Cal 229 San Pedro ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Edwards To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] LAW SUIT (Chris123) I race with non family crew but most of them are lawyers so I don't stand a chance anyway. Hell, one of my crew was on the cover of American Lawyer Magazine! IMHO, life is too short to worry about this stuff. Go race, have fun. If I kill someone, the legal aspect of it is going to be the last thing on my mind. I sign a waver to race. My crew does not. Allen On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Wayne Gillikin <wa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Chris, would it be possible as AirTime requested, that you can share the legal doc your friend uses? I would very much like to see the type of protective language he uses. Everyone else: Does anyone out there also use such a document? Does anyone worry about the liability aspect? I am especially interested in hearing from those of you who race with non-family crew. I am also curious to know how many of you share the opinion that such a document would make you reticent to crew. Trying to get an idea of how a cross section of Cal owners deal with the issue of liability. Regards, Wayne ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "ai… [at] aol.com" <ai… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] LAW SUIT Is it possible you can post a copy of the statement? I think it is a good idea, exactly for the reasons of the author. Daniel Casey "AirTime" Cal 9.2R #75 Santa Barbara, Ca. In a message dated 10/25/2012 10:15:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ch… [at] gmail.com writes: It may sound silly but a friend on mine for this exact reason has everyone who came on board, including me sign a release that was basically a "force majour" statement releasing him and his estate from all liabilities and obligations. He was a contract manager so it was a pretty good document. You came on board willingly and at you own risk and gave up your rights and that of you family should you not come home in one piece. When I asked him why...his response was interesting. While I am the captain of this vessel, and am responsible for everyone and everything on board, the legal system is so twisted that someone could sue me if they decide to do something foolish, say break their ankle while horsing around on a non assigned task. People are silly that way and no longer respect the sea and it power. Hmm I though good answer. /ch __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7631 (20121026) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7631 (20121026) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7632 (20121026) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7632 (20121026) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

On 10/26/2012 8:05 PM, Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) wrote: >  > > One might accomplish same level of protection and recite off a > laminated index card before each voyage an explanation of the risks > involved in sailing as well as any safety procedures, equipment > available and how to use.... I've actually typed up a brief safety talk for neophytes aboard my boats. It's based on the example of the schooner captain for the schoolkids we take aboard for schoolship events, and on something posted on this list long ago. Basically, it's a description of what's where on my boat--the PFDs, fire extinguishers, radio, the head, etc. Another good example from the schoolship program is actually enforcing the rules--no standing on cabintops, no running on deck, etc. The idea is that by enforcing the rules, we're teaching them more effectively. It also demonstrates due care. Chris Campbell

It's a kind of Catch 22. If you don't go out and enjoy life, you won't experience much, so the whole idea of living life is a wash. My hang gliding instructor used to say "You're going to die someday anyway". Well, maybe that's the other extreme. You can always break your neck, and that's not much of a life afterwards...depending how badly you've broken it, that is. Jerry From: Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 9:19 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] LAW SUIT (Chris123) On 10/26/2012 8:05 PM, Mark Alan Stahnke (MAS Consulting) wrote:  >One might accomplish same level of protection and recite off a laminated index card before each voyage an explanation of the risks involved in sailing as well as any safety procedures, equipment available and how to use.... I've actually typed up a brief safety talk for neophytes aboard my boats. It's based on the example of the schooner captain for the schoolkids we take aboard for schoolship events, and on something posted on this list long ago. Basically, it's a description of what's where on my boat--the PFDs, fire extinguishers, radio, the head, etc. Another good example from the schoolship program is actually enforcing the rules--no standing on cabintops, no running on deck, etc. The idea is that by enforcing the rules, we're teaching them more effectively. It also demonstrates due care. Chris Campbell

On 10/30/2012 12:48 AM, Gerald Sobel wrote: > > > It's a kind of Catch 22. If you don't go out and enjoy life, you > won't experience much, so the whole idea of living life is a wash. I like to read obituaries in the newspaper. It's a kind of manual on living. Some lives are filled with activities. Others not so much so. I aim for the lots-of-activity end of the spectrum myself but I also intend to make it last as long as possible. I always laugh when I think that when I was a kid, seeing a 65 year old guy on a bicycle would have been unimaginable. In college, there was one professor who liked to bicycle. We all thought that was really strange--why doesn't he drive? And at his age? (He was considerably younger than than I am now). My goal this year is to ride my bike to work in every month of the year. It was a good start with our warm winter, so I've already done Jan. and Feb. Occasionally you read about people who move to power boats because they're too old for sailing. Sometimes they're younger than I am. I'm always grateful for being able to do lots of things, even now that I'm an old guy. Lots of people have infirmities, real ones and not just the imagined kind. Not having them is a great gift. But I'm a whole lot younger than this 102 year old lady who's going back to the University of Michigan to finish her degree, and who enjoys driving her classic 1930 Packard and changing the oil. > http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/49185191/ns/today-good_news/#.UGTVRI4nj8v There's a good example for how to organize your life. Chris Campbell