Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday.

I don't have time right now but if you google around for safety at sea seminars I think there is video where they put volunteers overboard in cold water in various states of dress and you could see how long it takes you to be essentially incapacitated. Very sobering. Paul In a message dated 2/25/2013 3:44:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cc… [at] lsnm.org writes: Our schooner crew had an in-the-water safety training a number of years ago. It was warm water so we did not have to deal with temp-related impairments, but all of who participated learned how hard it is to do ordinary tasks when you're in the water. It's very easy when contemplating the tasks from the cockpit or living-room chair, which makes us all complacent. If there's any good that comes from these tragedies, it is that the rest of us have a chance to reflect on safety issues and emergency preparation.

I think it is pretty short sighted to go that far off shore in one of our typically older boats without a plan B, particularly where youngsters are involved. Of course, when I was a kid, our family considered seat cushions to be PFDs, and we'd take our rental skiffs over a mile or two off shore. But the water wasn't extremely cold and we a: could have swum to shore and b: were around enuff boat traffic in New Jersey that someone would have seen us. But realistically, we should have been better equipt than we were, but that was typical in the late fifties and early sixties. The water in northern California is extremely cold, even in mid summer, and not much much warmer in Southern CA, but far more survival-able...but not for more than a few hours. It might have helped, also, if the boat had some kind of alarm that would go off as soon as the bildge started filling up, but how many boats have such a thing? Then they'd have a chance to find and plug the leak, or declare an emergency earlier. If wonder what percentage of California boaters are basically sporting death like this family was? (thru hulls and valves in poor condition, no plugs, no liferaft or even an inflatable?) A hand held VHF is probably a good idea as well. And I'm pretty sure they didn't even have a "float plan"...telling someone where they were going? Jerry From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. I don't have time right now but if you google around for safety at sea seminars I think there is video where they put volunteers overboard in cold water in various states of dress and you could see how long it takes you to be essentially incapacitated. Very sobering. Paul In a message dated 2/25/2013 3:44:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cc… [at] lsnm.org writes: Our schooner crew had an in-the-water safety training a number of years ago. It was warm water so we did not have to deal with temp-related impairments, but all of who participated learned how hard it is to do ordinary tasks when you're in the water. It's very easy when contemplating the tasks from the cockpit or living-room chair, which makes us all complacent. If there's any good that comes from these tragedies, it is that the rest of us have a chance to reflect on safety issues and emergency preparation. > >

Anyone think this might be a hoax? 60 miles off shore on a day sail at 4:30PM? Cousin of the child on board and nobody has reported anyone missing? What am I missing? Is this a drug smuggler trying to get help? A diversion perhaps? I apologize in advance to the family of the sailors lost at sea. Allen

This is unusual. What is a 29' boat with 2 adults and 2 kids doing 65 miles offshore. If this is not a hoax it is for sure an exersize in gross stupidity. No raft, no epirb, I don't get it. My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack US57313 From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. Anyone think this might be a hoax? 60 miles off shore on a day sail at 4:30PM? Cousin of the child on board and nobody has reported anyone missing? What am I missing? Is this a drug smuggler trying to get help? A diversion perhaps? I apologize in advance to the family of the sailors lost at sea. Allen

I was having the same conversation last night with my wife. I just smells fishy at this point. I can't imagine all those resources searching for 24 hours and there is nothing to be found? And no one reports anyone missing? From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. Anyone think this might be a hoax? 60 miles off shore on a day sail at 4:30PM? Cousin of the child on board and nobody has reported anyone missing? What am I missing? Is this a drug smuggler trying to get help? A diversion perhaps? I apologize in advance to the family of the sailors lost at sea. Allen

Could they have washed out that far? What were the wind and current conditions like? Thanks Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg vanDalen Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:19 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. I was having the same conversation last night with my wife. I just smells fishy at this point. I can't imagine all those resources searching for 24 hours and there is nothing to be found? And no one reports anyone missing? From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. Anyone think this might be a hoax? 60 miles off shore on a day sail at 4:30PM? Cousin of the child on board and nobody has reported anyone missing? What am I missing? Is this a drug smuggler trying to get help? A diversion perhaps? I apologize in advance to the family of the sailors lost at sea. Allen

On 2/25/2013 4:40 PM, Gerald Sobel wrote: > > > I think it is pretty short sighted to go that far off shore in one of > our typically older boats without a plan B, particularly where > youngsters are involved. Sometimes there are no good alternate plans, really. Our activity is inherently dangerous, at least as compared with not leaving your home. I rode my bike to work this morning. I'll bet that bicycles are statistically more dangerous than cars when the two are mixed, and all the more so when the roads are icy. But there's a big fun and exercise bonus, and I'm aware of the dangers so I make an effort to minimize them. The other day I forwarded a picture of a sister vessel of my other boat to another sailor. It's a cool photo of the boat sailing at a perfect angle of heel in chop either off the Netherlands or nearby. If you look closely, you'll see the big plastic canister for the legally-mandated life raft because it's a European boat. Now ask yourself: how many 26' boats around the US carry on-deck safety life rafts? Oh yes, it would make good sense, but what about the expense (purchase & periodic repacking), the space, the weight? > Of course, when I was a kid, our family considered seat cushions to be > PFDs, and we'd take our rental skiffs over a mile or two off shore. > But the water wasn't extremely cold and we a: could have swum to shore > and b: were around enuff boat traffic in New Jersey that someone would > have seen us. But realistically, we should have been better equipt > than we were, but that was typical in the late fifties and early > sixties. The water in northern California is extremely cold, even in > mid summer, and not much much warmer in Southern CA, but far more > survival-able...but not for more than a few hours. I ponder this every spring. Our Grand Traverse Bay is deep and thus slow to warm up. I tend to wear my inflatable PFD but occasionally it dawns on me that the PFD just guarantees that they'll find the body. If I go over, my boats continues sailing along. Unless another boater happens along, my prospects would be grim. > > It might have helped, also, if the boat had some kind of alarm that > would go off as soon as the bildge started filling up, but how many > boats have such a thing? Then they'd have a chance to find and plug > the leak, or declare an emergency earlier. My Cal 20 has a "bilge" of perhaps 1". But beyond that, if you have a truly catastrophic failure, the warning isn't going to do you much good, I suspect. Chris Campbell

Some kind of an LED light that doesn't use a lot of energy would be a good idea as a bilge "alarm". I say this because when my son was 2 yrs old we headed out across the Bay, Because my only family close by is my father in law, who is not a sailor and did not like us taking our son on the boat, we did not tell him or our plans. Well we'd been in trawler mode for a little over an hour and had not been down below we didn't notice that our sole was about to be flooded. When my wife discovered it I had her come up and drive while I turned on the bilge pump and started checking the thru hulls. Nothing! I then pulled the engine cover off. Nothing! I then crawled down into the lazerette. Nothing!! I was flabbergasted but not panicking because the bilge was bringing the water level down. As a last gasp effort I removed the insert that holds the propane tanks and saw that the drain hose was not connected to the insert but it was not leaking. Remembering how much the boat squats under power I had my wife throttle up and sure enough, as soon as the stern squatted water poured into the boat via the drain hose. WHEW!! Lesson learned!! Paul West Adventure Kwest Cal 39 It might have helped, also, if the boat had some kind of alarm that would go off as soon as the bildge started filling up, but how many boats have such a thing? Then they'd have a chance to find and plug the leak, or declare an emergency earlier. My Cal 20 has a "bilge" of perhaps 1". But beyond that, if you have a truly catastrophic failure, the warning isn't going to do you much good, I suspect.

I don't understand why it has to be low energy. Done correctly it will only use electricity while there is water in the boat. You want something that grabs your attention. Rule and others make high water alarms. They're piezo buzzers connected to float switches, you can make your own from a $3 piezo buzzer from Radio Shack if you don't want to pay the $60 for pre-packaged. Also this kind of noise maker only uses a fraction of an amp anyway for 85 -120 dB. If you have a float switch already for your bilge pump, just add the alarm to that to let you know when the pump is working. I put in a bigger pump than the boat came to me with on top of the lead in the keel with a float switch and alarm. This doesn't run/alarm until an abnormal amount of water is in the boat, but while it is still low enough to easily check all the through hulls which will still be well above the water level in the boat. Boated for 2 decades without worrying about this. Then I had kids. One night while falling asleep on the boat with the family I jerked awake thinking by the time the water in the boat woke me up it would be too late. The alarm went in shortly after. Having kids seriously altered my brain chemistry. John From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. Some kind of an LED light that doesn't use a lot of energy would be a good idea as a bilge "alarm". I say this because when my son was 2 yrs old we headed out across the Bay, Because my only family close by is my father in law, who is not a sailor and did not like us taking our son on the boat, we did not tell him or our plans. Well we'd been in trawler mode for a little over an hour and had not been down below we didn't notice that our sole was about to be flooded. When my wife discovered it I had her come up and drive while I turned on the bilge pump and started checking the thru hulls. Nothing! I then pulled the engine cover off. Nothing! I then crawled down into the lazerette. Nothing!! I was flabbergasted but not panicking because the bilge was bringing the water level down. As a last gasp effort I removed the insert that holds the propane tanks and saw that the drain hose was not connected to the insert but it was not leaking. Remembering how much the boat squats under power I had my wife throttle up and sure enough, as soon as the stern squatted water poured into the boat via the drain hose. WHEW!! Lesson learned!! Paul West Adventure Kwest Cal 39 It might have helped, also, if the boat had some kind of alarm that would go off as soon as the bildge started filling up, but how many boats have such a thing? Then they'd have a chance to find and plug the leak, or declare an emergency earlier. >> >My Cal 20 has a "bilge" of perhaps 1". But beyond that, if you have a truly catastrophic failure, the warning isn't going to do you much good, I suspect. >

John - I hadn't really thought it out completely but my first thought was that I'd wire it hot all the time and put the light where it could be seen by my dockmaster so he could alert me should he happen to see it when I am not around. Paul In a message dated 2/26/2013 11:33:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ca… [at] yahoo.com writes: I don't understand why it has to be low energy. Done correctly it will only use electricity while there is water in the boat. You want something that grabs your attention. Rule and others make high water alarms. They're piezo buzzers connected to float switches, you can make your own from a $3 piezo buzzer from Radio Shack if you don't want to pay the $60 for pre-packaged. Also this kind of noise maker only uses a fraction of an amp anyway for 85 -120 dB. If you have a float switch already for your bilge pump, just add the alarm to that to let you know when the pump is working. I put in a bigger pump than the boat came to me with on top of the lead in the keel with a float switch and alarm. This doesn't run/alarm until an abnormal amount of water is in the boat, but while it is still low enough to easily check all the through hulls which will still be well above the water level in the boat. Boated for 2 decades without worrying about this. Then I had kids. One night while falling asleep on the boat with the family I jerked awake thinking by the time the water in the boat woke me up it would be too late. The alarm went in shortly after. Having kids seriously altered my brain chemistry. John From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Cal_Boat s… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. Some kind of an LED light that doesn't use a lot of energy would be a good idea as a bilge "alarm". I say this because when my son was 2 yrs old we headed out across the Bay, Because my only family close by is my father in law, who is not a sailor and did not like us taking our son on the boat, we did not tell him or our plans. Well we'd been in trawler mode for a little over an hour and had not been down below we didn't notice that our sole was about to be flooded. When my wife discovered it I had her come up and drive while I turned on the bilge pump and started checking the thru hulls. Nothing! I then pulled the engine cover off. Nothing! I then crawled down into the lazerette. Nothing!! I was flabbergasted but not panicking because the bilge was bringing the water level down. As a last gasp effort I removed the insert that holds the propane tanks and saw that the drain hose was not connected to the insert but it was not leaking. Remembering how much the boat squats under power I had my wife throttle up and sure enough, as soon as the stern squatted water poured into the boat via the drain hose. WHEW!! Lesson learned!! Paul West Adventure Kwest Cal 39 It might have helped, also, if the boat had some kind of alarm that would go off as soon as the bildge started filling up, but how many boats have such a thing? Then they'd have a chance to find and plug the leak, or declare an emergency earlier. My Cal 20 has a "bilge" of perhaps 1". But beyond that, if you have a truly catastrophic failure, the warning isn't going to do you much good, I suspect.

HOW MANY HAVE 2 BILGE PUMPS?? One small to cycle most of the time and a LARGE one that is higher up for true emergencies? I even have a little portable setup with a 10ft hose and 15 ft power cord for connecting to batteries or cig lighters. I've used it to save several boats at the marina that were sitting low enough that you could not board them without being afraid of pushing them stern under.... On 2/26/2013 11:40 AM, pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > > John - > I hadn't really thought it out completely but my first thought was > that I'd wire it hot all the time and put the light where it could be > seen by my dockmaster so he could alert me should he happen to see it > when I am not around. > Paul > In a message dated 2/26/2013 11:33:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > ca… [at] yahoo.com writes: > > I don't understand why it has to be low energy. Done correctly it > will only use electricity while there is water in the boat. You > want something that grabs your attention. Rule and others make > high water alarms. They're piezo buzzers connected to float > switches, you can make your own from a $3 piezo buzzer from Radio > Shack if you don't want to pay the $60 for pre-packaged. Also > this kind of noise maker only uses a fraction of an amp anyway for > 85 -120 dB. > > If you have a float switch already for your bilge pump, just add > the alarm to that to let you know when the pump is working. I put > in a bigger pump than the boat came to me with on top of the lead > in the keel with a float switch and alarm. This doesn't run/alarm > until an abnormal amount of water is in the boat, but while it is > still low enough to easily check all the through hulls which will > still be well above the water level in the boat. > > Boated for 2 decades without worrying about this. Then I had > kids. One night while falling asleep on the boat with the family > I jerked awake thinking by the time the water in the boat woke me > up it would be too late. The alarm went in shortly after. > Having kids seriously altered my brain chemistry. > > John > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> > *To:* Cal_Boat s… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. > > Some kind of an LED light that doesn't use a lot of energy would > be a good idea as a bilge "alarm". I say this because when my > son was 2 yrs old we headed out across the Bay, Because my only > family close by is my father in law, who is not a sailor and did > not like us taking our son on the boat, we did not tell him or our > plans. Well we'd been in trawler mode for a little over an hour > and had not been down below we didn't notice that our sole was > about to be flooded. When my wife discovered it I had her come up > and drive while I turned on the bilge pump and started checking > the thru hulls. Nothing! I then pulled the engine cover off. > Nothing! I then crawled down into the lazerette. Nothing!! I was > flabbergasted but not panicking because the bilge was bringing > the water level down. As a last gasp effort I removed the insert > that holds the propane tanks and saw that the drain hose was not > connected to the insert but it was not leaking. Remembering how > much the boat squats under power I had my wife throttle up and > sure enough, as soon as the stern squatted water poured into the > boat via the drain hose. WHEW!! > Lesson learned!! > Paul West > Adventure Kwest > Cal 39 > >> It might have helped, also, if the boat had some kind of >> alarm that would go off as soon as the bildge started filling >> up, but how many boats have such a thing? Then they'd have a >> chance to find and plug the leak, or declare an emergency >> earlier. > > My Cal 20 has a "bilge" of perhaps 1". But beyond that, if > you have a truly catastrophic failure, the warning isn't going > to do you much good, I suspect. > > > > >

I have 4 bilge pumps. Two electric as you say. One the smallest I could find and it cycles itself on every few minutes to check for water. The other the biggest I could find. The two manuals are a whale gusher and some long portable manual pump. Then there are the buckets... I like the two pump setup because the small pump will clear down to 1/2 inch of water where the large one will remove a pretty good flow. I think the actual sizes are 500 and 2000 so not really smallest and largest one could find. Allen On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 2:31 PM, roline <ro… [at] charter.net> wrote: > ** > > > HOW MANY HAVE 2 BILGE PUMPS?? > One small to cycle most of the time and a LARGE one that is higher up for > true emergencies? > I even have a little portable setup with a 10ft hose and 15 ft power cord > for connecting to batteries or cig lighters. I've used it to save several > boats at the marina that were sitting low enough that you could not board > them without being afraid of pushing them stern under.... > > On 2/26/2013 11:40 AM, pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > John - > > I hadn't really thought it out completely but my first thought was that > I'd wire it hot all the time and put the light where it could be seen by my > dockmaster so he could alert me should he happen to see it when I am not > around. > > Paul > > In a message dated 2/26/2013 11:33:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > ca… [at] yahoo.com writes: > > > > I don't understand why it has to be low energy. Done correctly it will > only use electricity while there is water in the boat. You want something > that grabs your attention. Rule and others make high water alarms. > They're piezo buzzers connected to float switches, you can make your own > from a $3 piezo buzzer from Radio Shack if you don't want to pay the $60 > for pre-packaged. Also this kind of noise maker only uses a fraction of an > amp anyway for 85 -120 dB. > > If you have a float switch already for your bilge pump, just add the > alarm to that to let you know when the pump is working. I put in a bigger > pump than the boat came to me with on top of the lead in the keel with a > float switch and alarm. This doesn't run/alarm until an abnormal amount of > water is in the boat, but while it is still low enough to easily check all > the through hulls which will still be well above the water level in the > boat. > > Boated for 2 decades without worrying about this. Then I had kids. One > night while falling asleep on the boat with the family I jerked awake > thinking by the time the water in the boat woke me up it would be too late. > The alarm went in shortly after. Having kids seriously altered my brain > chemistry. > > John > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> <pw… [at] aol.com><pw… [at] aol.com> > *To:* Cal_Boat s… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. > > > Some kind of an LED light that doesn't use a lot of energy would be a good > idea as a bilge "alarm". I say this because when my son was 2 yrs old we > headed out across the Bay, Because my only family close by is my father in > law, who is not a sailor and did not like us taking our son on the boat, we > did not tell him or our plans. Well we'd been in trawler mode for a little > over an hour and had not been down below we didn't notice that our sole was > about to be flooded. When my wife discovered it I had her come up and > drive while I turned on the bilge pump and started checking the thru > hulls. Nothing! I then pulled the engine cover off. Nothing! I then > crawled down into the lazerette. Nothing!! I was flabbergasted but not > panicking because the bilge was bringing the water level down. As a last > gasp effort I removed the insert that holds the propane tanks and saw that > the drain hose was not connected to the insert but it was not leaking. > Remembering how much the boat squats under power I had my wife throttle up > and sure enough, as soon as the stern squatted water poured into the boat > via the drain hose. WHEW!! > > Lesson learned!! > > Paul West > Adventure Kwest > Cal 39 > > It might have helped, also, if the boat had some kind of alarm that > would go off as soon as the bildge started filling up, but how many boats > have such a thing? Then they'd have a chance to find and plug the leak, or > declare an emergency earlier. > > > My Cal 20 has a "bilge" of perhaps 1". But beyond that, if you have a > truly catastrophic failure, the warning isn't going to do you much good, I > suspect. > > > > > > >

My boat came to me with the 2 manual pumps (10 and 20 GPM) required for offshore racing and a 3 GPM diaphragm pump for keeping the bilge dry. I usually am not sailing with a race crew as I don't race, so I won't have several people in their prime to operate pumps while someone else looks for leaks. I put in the pump described before, a 2000 GPH pump which is realistically a 20 GPM pump derated. If I ever do more than local cruising I will add a disaster pump, maybe a trash pump or impeller pump belted off of the main engine, 80 GPM or more rated. Flood rate is: Q=20 x diam^2 x root(depth) Q GPM diam in inches depth in feet So a 1 inch hole, 1 foot below the waterline is 20 GPM, thats the capacity of the largest pump on my boat right now. John From: roline <ro… [at] charter.net> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. HOW MANY HAVE 2 BILGE PUMPS?? One small to cycle most of the time and a LARGE one that is higher up for true emergencies? I even have a little portable setup with a 10ft hose and 15 ft power cord for connecting to batteries or cig lighters. I've used it to save several boats at the marina that were sitting low enough that you could not board them without being afraid of pushing them stern under.... On 2/26/2013 11:40 AM, pw… [at] aol.com wrote: >John - >I hadn't really thought it out completely but my first thought was that I'd wire it hot all the time and put the light where it could be seen by my dockmaster so he could alert me should he happen to see it when I am not around. > >Paul > >In a message dated 2/26/2013 11:33:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ca… [at] yahoo.com writes: > >>I don't understand why it has to be low energy. Done correctly it will only use electricity while there is water in the boat. You want something that grabs your attention. Rule and others make high water alarms. They're piezo buzzers connected to float switches, you can make your own from a $3 piezo buzzer from Radio Shack if you don't want to pay the $60 for pre-packaged. Also this kind of noise maker only uses a fraction of an amp anyway for 85 -120 dB. >> >> >>If you have a float switch already for your bilge pump, just add the alarm to that to let you know when the pump is working. I put in a bigger pump than the boat came to me with on top of the lead in the keel with a float switch and alarm. This doesn't run/alarm until an abnormal amount of water is in the boat, but while it is still low enough to easily check all the through hulls which will still be well above the water level in the boat. >> >> >>Boated for 2 decades without worrying about this. Then I had kids. One night while falling asleep on the boat with the family I jerked awake thinking by the time the water in the boat woke me up it would be too late. The alarm went in shortly after. Having kids seriously altered my brain chemistry. >> >> >>John >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> >>To: Cal_Boat s… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 AM >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. >> >> >> >>Some kind of an LED light that doesn't use a lot of energy would be a good idea as a bilge "alarm". I say this because when my son was 2 yrs old we headed out across the Bay, Because my only family close by is my father in law, who is not a sailor and did not like us taking our son on the boat, we did not tell him or our plans. Well we'd been in trawler mode for a little over an hour and had not been down below we didn't notice that our sole was about to be flooded. When my wife discovered it I had her come up and drive while I turned on the bilge pump and started checking the thru hulls. Nothing! I then pulled the engine cover off. Nothing! I then crawled down into the lazerette. Nothing!! I was flabbergasted but not panicking because the bilge was bringing the water level down. As a last gasp effort I removed the insert that holds the propane tanks and saw that the drain hose was not connected to the insert but it was not leaking. Remembering how much the boat squats under power I had my wife throttle up and sure enough, as soon as the stern squatted water poured into the boat via the drain hose. WHEW!! >>Lesson learned!! >> >>Paul West >>Adventure Kwest >>Cal 39 >>It might have helped, also, if the boat had some kind of alarm that would go off as soon as the bildge started filling up, but how many boats have such a thing? Then they'd have a chance to find and plug the leak, or declare an emergency earlier. >>>> >>>My Cal 20 has a "bilge" of perhaps 1". But beyond that, if you have a truly catastrophic failure, the warning isn't going to do you much good, I suspect. >>> >> >> >> >>

Allen, with all respect, I've seen the cracks in your hull after heavy weather races. Beautiful boat, but you need all those bilge pumps. You do stress the boat, but one never knows when Mother Nature might do the stressing for you. I once was going across the Chesapeake under motor (no air) in my CAL 40. The boat has a huge bilge. My lady friend went below and said the floor boards were floating. Holy whatever. Kicked in the two pumps and got ahead of it (while heading for shallow water). When we arrived at the Marina in the Corsica River, I was telling the yard we might need to get pulled. But the water had stopped. Some friends helped with the inspection. Turns out that the engine exhaust hose had cracked. The system injects water into the exhaust to cool it. With the engine on, the boat was flooding. A bunch of duct tape got us home the next day. Take Care Charlie Annapolis From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:22 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. I have 4 bilge pumps. Two electric as you say. One the smallest I could find and it cycles itself on every few minutes to check for water. The other the biggest I could find. The two manuals are a whale gusher and some long portable manual pump. Then there are the buckets... I like the two pump setup because the small pump will clear down to 1/2 inch of water where the large one will remove a pretty good flow. I think the actual sizes are 500 and 2000 so not really smallest and largest one could find. Allen On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 2:31 PM, roline <ro… [at] charter.net<mailto:ro… [at] charter.net>> wrote: HOW MANY HAVE 2 BILGE PUMPS?? One small to cycle most of the time and a LARGE one that is higher up for true emergencies? I even have a little portable setup with a 10ft hose and 15 ft power cord for connecting to batteries or cig lighters. I've used it to save several boats at the marina that were sitting low enough that you could not board them without being afraid of pushing them stern under.... On 2/26/2013 11:40 AM, pw… [at] aol.com<mailto:pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: John - I hadn't really thought it out completely but my first thought was that I'd wire it hot all the time and put the light where it could be seen by my dockmaster so he could alert me should he happen to see it when I am not around. Paul In a message dated 2/26/2013 11:33:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ca… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:ca… [at] yahoo.com> writes: I don't understand why it has to be low energy. Done correctly it will only use electricity while there is water in the boat. You want something that grabs your attention. Rule and others make high water alarms. They're piezo buzzers connected to float switches, you can make your own from a $3 piezo buzzer from Radio Shack if you don't want to pay the $60 for pre-packaged. Also this kind of noise maker only uses a fraction of an amp anyway for 85 -120 dB. If you have a float switch already for your bilge pump, just add the alarm to that to let you know when the pump is working. I put in a bigger pump than the boat came to me with on top of the lead in the keel with a float switch and alarm. This doesn't run/alarm until an abnormal amount of water is in the boat, but while it is still low enough to easily check all the through hulls which will still be well above the water level in the boat. Boated for 2 decades without worrying about this. Then I had kids. One night while falling asleep on the boat with the family I jerked awake thinking by the time the water in the boat woke me up it would be too late. The alarm went in shortly after. Having kids seriously altered my brain chemistry. John From: "pw… [at] aol.com"<mailto:pw… [at] aol.com> <pw… [at] aol.com><mailto:pw… [at] aol.com> To: Cal_Boat s… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:s… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. Some kind of an LED light that doesn't use a lot of energy would be a good idea as a bilge "alarm". I say this because when my son was 2 yrs old we headed out across the Bay, Because my only family close by is my father in law, who is not a sailor and did not like us taking our son on the boat, we did not tell him or our plans. Well we'd been in trawler mode for a little over an hour and had not been down below we didn't notice that our sole was about to be flooded. When my wife discovered it I had her come up and drive while I turned on the bilge pump and started checking the thru hulls. Nothing! I then pulled the engine cover off. Nothing! I then crawled down into the lazerette. Nothing!! I was flabbergasted but not panicking because the bilge was bringing the water level down. As a last gasp effort I removed the insert that holds the propane tanks and saw that the drain hose was not connected to the insert but it was not leaking. Remembering how much the boat squats under power I had my wife throttle up and sure enough, as soon as the stern squatted water poured into the boat via the drain hose. WHEW!! Lesson learned!! Paul West Adventure Kwest Cal 39 It might have helped, also, if the boat had some kind of alarm that would go off as soon as the bildge started filling up, but how many boats have such a thing? Then they'd have a chance to find and plug the leak, or declare an emergency earlier. My Cal 20 has a "bilge" of perhaps 1". But beyond that, if you have a truly catastrophic failure, the warning isn't going to do you much good, I suspect.

Yachting Monthly does an interesting and thought-provoking series of videos on YouTube called "Crash Test Boat", where they (intentionally) dismast, sink, and then blow up a sailboat. What's especially eye-opening on the sinking episode is how much and how fast water comes pouring in, with even a small hole, when it's well below the waterline... Link to episode 1: http://www.*youtube*.com/watch?v=bRhcXBtmPQs<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRhcXBtmPQs>

I determined a long time ago that a bilge pump would not keep up with a hole in the boat the size of a thru hull when I pulled the speedo out to clean it and then did it once underway. Whoa Nelly that was a blast of water !! Paul From: aJ <ak… [at] gmail.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Feb 26, 2013 9:28 pm Subject: Re: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. Yachting Monthly does an interesting and thought-provoking series of videos on YouTube called "Crash Test Boat", where they (intentionally) dismast, sink, and then blow up a sailboat. What's especially eye-opening on the sinking episode is how much and how fast water comes pouring in, with even a small hole, when it's well below the waterline... Link to episode 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRhcXBtmPQs

Especially when it turns into a 2' tall fountain as you fumble around to plug it.... On 2/26/2013 9:34 PM, pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > > I determined a long time ago that a bilge pump would not keep up with > a hole in the boat the size of a thru hull when I pulled the speedo > out to clean it and then did it once underway. Whoa Nelly that was a > blast of water !! > Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: aJ <ak… [at] gmail.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tue, Feb 26, 2013 9:28 pm > Subject: Re: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz > yesterday. > > Yachting Monthly does an interesting and thought-provoking series of > videos on YouTube called "Crash Test Boat", where they (intentionally) > dismast, sink, and then blow up a sailboat. What's especially > eye-opening on the sinking episode is how much and how fast water > comes pouring in, with even a small hole, when it's well below the > waterline... > Link to episode 1: > http://www.*youtube*.com/watch?v=bRhcXBtmPQs > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRhcXBtmPQs> >

I share your concern, which is why I have so many pumps. However, after the last bit of work I had done on the last haul out, the boat doesn't leak for the first time in the 24 years I have had it. I have now addressed all parts of the boat, the last was the under engine and stern. A friend had a Y-valve in the intake to the engine cooling water. When the valve was switched, the inlet was the bilge instead of the sea water. The engine then became a very high capacity bilge pump. Allen On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 6:06 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) < hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: > ** > > > Allen, with all respect, I’ve seen the cracks in your hull after heavy > weather races. Beautiful boat, but you need all those bilge pumps. You do > stress the boat, but one never knows when Mother Nature might do the > stressing for you.**** > > ** ** > > I once was going across the Chesapeake under motor (no air) in my CAL 40. > The boat has a huge bilge. My lady friend went below and said the floor > boards were floating. Holy whatever. Kicked in the two pumps and got > ahead of it (while heading for shallow water). When we arrived at the > Marina in the Corsica River, I was telling the yard we might need to get > pulled. But the water had stopped. Some friends helped with the > inspection. Turns out that the engine exhaust hose had cracked. The > system injects water into the exhaust to cool it. With the engine on, the > boat was flooding. A bunch of duct tape got us home the next day.**** > > ** ** > > Take Care**** > > Charlie**** > > Annapolis**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:22 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz > yesterday.**** > > ** ** > > > > I have 4 bilge pumps. Two electric as you say. One the smallest I could > find and it cycles itself on every few minutes to check for water. The > other the biggest I could find. The two manuals are a whale gusher and > some long portable manual pump. Then there are the buckets...**** > > ** ** > > I like the two pump setup because the small pump will clear down to 1/2 > inch of water where the large one will remove a pretty good flow. I think > the actual sizes are 500 and 2000 so not really smallest and largest one > could find.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 2:31 PM, roline <ro… [at] charter.net> wrote:**** > > **** > > HOW MANY HAVE 2 BILGE PUMPS?? > One small to cycle most of the time and a LARGE one that is higher up for > true emergencies? > I even have a little portable setup with a 10ft hose and 15 ft power cord > for connecting to batteries or cig lighters. I've used it to save several > boats at the marina that were sitting low enough that you could not board > them without being afraid of pushing them stern under....**** > > On 2/26/2013 11:40 AM, pw… [at] aol.com wrote:**** > > **** > > John - **** > > **** > > I hadn't really thought it out completely but my first thought was that > I'd wire it hot all the time and put the light where it could be seen by my > dockmaster so he could alert me should he happen to see it when I am not > around.**** > > **** > > Paul**** > > **** > > In a message dated 2/26/2013 11:33:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > ca… [at] yahoo.com writes:**** > > **** > > I don't understand why it has to be low energy. Done correctly it will > only use electricity while there is water in the boat. You want something > that grabs your attention. Rule and others make high water alarms. > They're piezo buzzers connected to float switches, you can make your own > from a $3 piezo buzzer from Radio Shack if you don't want to pay the $60 > for pre-packaged. Also this kind of noise maker only uses a fraction of an > amp anyway for 85 -120 dB.**** > > ** ** > > If you have a float switch already for your bilge pump, just add the alarm > to that to let you know when the pump is working. I put in a bigger pump > than the boat came to me with on top of the lead in the keel with a float > switch and alarm. This doesn't run/alarm until an abnormal amount of water > is in the boat, but while it is still low enough to easily check all the > through hulls which will still be well above the water level in the boat.* > *** > > ** ** > > Boated for 2 decades without worrying about this. Then I had kids. One > night while falling asleep on the boat with the family I jerked awake > thinking by the time the water in the boat woke me up it would be too late. > The alarm went in shortly after. Having kids seriously altered my brain > chemistry.**** > > ** ** > > John **** > > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> <pw… [at] aol.com><pw… [at] aol.com> > *To:* Cal_Boat s… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday.**** > > ** ** > > **** > > Some kind of an LED light that doesn't use a lot of energy would be a good > idea as a bilge "alarm". I say this because when my son was 2 yrs old we > headed out across the Bay, Because my only family close by is my father in > law, who is not a sailor and did not like us taking our son on the boat, we > did not tell him or our plans. Well we'd been in trawler mode for a little > over an hour and had not been down below we didn't notice that our sole was > about to be flooded. When my wife discovered it I had her come up and > drive while I turned on the bilge pump and started checking the thru > hulls. Nothing! I then pulled the engine cover off. Nothing! I then > crawled down into the lazerette. Nothing!! I was flabbergasted but not > panicking because the bilge was bringing the water level down. As a last > gasp effort I removed the insert that holds the propane tanks and saw that > the drain hose was not connected to the insert but it was not leaking. > Remembering how much the boat squats under power I had my wife throttle up > and sure enough, as soon as the stern squatted water poured into the boat > via the drain hose. WHEW!!**** > > **** > > Lesson learned!!**** > > **** > > Paul West**** > > Adventure Kwest **** > > Cal 39**** > > It might have helped, also, if the boat had some kind of alarm that > would go off as soon as the bildge started filling up, but how many boats > have such a thing? Then they'd have a chance to find and plug the leak, or > declare an emergency earlier. **** > > > My Cal 20 has a "bilge" of perhaps 1". But beyond that, if you have a > truly catastrophic failure, the warning isn't going to do you much good, I > suspect. **** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > > > > **** > > **** > > >

I have a really neat 500 gph D.C. bildge pump. I got it twelve years ago. It was on sale at West Marine. It is still in its blister pack. I still haven't gotten around to installing it . I'll need a bildge switch and an auxiliary panel for it. Meanwhile, I have the obligatory piston pump to qualify for near shore racing, plus enuff one inch tubing to reach both fore and aft bildges. A permanently installed cockpit, hi capacity pump was on my 'to do' list but I've not gotten around to it. I carry a "four man" Sevyor dinghy with protective abrasions skirt. I do have an electric pump for it, as well as two manual air pumps, a piston style and a foot pedal style, but it takes a good fifteen or twenty minutes to inflate it. I guess the question is, in a catastrophe, is it possible to inflate the thing while treading water? Maybe I should try it. On the other hand, is there such a thing as a compressed air cylinder with a regulator that could inflate the thing, or can an emergency CO2 cartridge be adapted to that? I can imagine, pumping like mad while treading water would keep you warm in 60 degree water, no? None of my thru hulls have valves, since I believe the weakest link would be the valve and its connection to the thru hull. My auxilliary is on a stern mounted, Fulton, scissors style lifting unit bolted to the transom. With a set up like this, I don't have any problem with water in the bildge, the only danger is colliding with something that could severely damage the hull, like a shipping container fallen off a ship, a container ship, another small craft, such as a suicidal stink pot driver. I guess, in my head, my boat already is in the same scale size as a life boat, an idea that is reinforced after I parked my boat alongside the dinghy dock at King Harbor yacht club and she didn't look out of place. As a rule, I never wear a PFD, since all the ones I have are either too small to be comfortable, or are of the cheap, uncomfortable foam block collar one size fits all . My crew, on the other hand, has two PFD's one built into a foully coat, the other a suspender style unit. I guess, for most of my sailing, I'm assuming I could swim to shore, unless I'm midway in the San Pedro channel, in which case, the trick will be to stay afloat until I can flag down a boat going between the mainland and Catalina, or, that I'll be lucky and not have a mishap. As they say, one hand for the boat at all times, unless I'm braced against the shrouds or the pulpit. Also, I've had two MOB recoveries under my belt which went very quickly without a hitch. Having very low freeboard on my boat is a definite plus in this case. And I will say, everyone should, at the very least, practice recovering things blown overboard, like hats, to gain a perspective of how difficult it can be, not only to get the boat turned around and stopped, but how easy it is to lose sight of your target, especially when looking into the sun. Jerry Cal 24 Shpritz. From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. I have 4 bilge pumps. Two electric as you say. One the smallest I could find and it cycles itself on every few minutes to check for water. The other the biggest I could find. The two manuals are a whale gusher and some long portable manual pump. Then there are the buckets... I like the two pump setup because the small pump will clear down to 1/2 inch of water where the large one will remove a pretty good flow. I think the actual sizes are 500 and 2000 so not really smallest and largest one could find. Allen On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 2:31 PM, roline <ro… [at] charter.net> wrote: > >HOW MANY HAVE 2 BILGE PUMPS?? >One small to cycle most of the time and a LARGE one that is higher up for true emergencies? >I even have a little portable setup with a 10ft hose and 15 ft power cord for connecting to batteries or cig lighters. I've used it to save several boats at the marina that were sitting low enough that you could not board them without being afraid of pushing them stern under.... > > >On 2/26/2013 11:40 AM, pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > > >>John - >>I hadn't really thought it out completely but my first thought was that I'd wire it hot all the time and put the light where it could be seen by my dockmaster so he could alert me should he happen to see it when I am not around. >> >>Paul >> >>In a message dated 2/26/2013 11:33:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ca… [at] yahoo.com writes: >> >>>I don't understand why it has to be low energy. Done correctly it will only use electricity while there is water in the boat. You want something that grabs your attention. Rule and others make high water alarms. They're piezo buzzers connected to float switches, you can make your own from a $3 piezo buzzer from Radio Shack if you don't want to pay the $60 for pre-packaged. Also this kind of noise maker only uses a fraction of an amp anyway for 85 -120 dB. >>> >>> >>>If you have a float switch already for your bilge pump, just add the alarm to that to let you know when the pump is working. I put in a bigger pump than the boat came to me with on top of the lead in the keel with a float switch and alarm. This doesn't run/alarm until an abnormal amount of water is in the boat, but while it is still low enough to easily check all the through hulls which will still be well above the water level in the boat. >>> >>> >>>Boated for 2 decades without worrying about this. Then I had kids. One night while falling asleep on the boat with the family I jerked awake thinking by the time the water in the boat woke me up it would be too late. The alarm went in shortly after. Having kids seriously altered my brain chemistry. >>> >>> >>>John >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> >>>To: Cal_Boat s… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. >>> >>> >>> >>>Some kind of an LED light that doesn't use a lot of energy would be a good idea as a bilge "alarm". I say this because when my son was 2 yrs old we headed out across the Bay, Because my only family close by is my father in law, who is not a sailor and did not like us taking our son on the boat, we did not tell him or our plans. Well we'd been in trawler mode for a little over an hour and had not been down below we didn't notice that our sole was about to be flooded. When my wife discovered it I had her come up and drive while I turned on the bilge pump and started checking the thru hulls. Nothing! I then pulled the engine cover off. Nothing! I then crawled down into the lazerette. Nothing!! I was flabbergasted but not panicking because the bilge was bringing the water level down. As a last gasp effort I removed the insert that holds the propane tanks and saw that the drain hose was not connected to the insert but it was not leaking. Remembering how much the boat squats under power I had my wife throttle up and sure enough, as soon as the stern squatted water poured into the boat via the drain hose. WHEW!! >>>Lesson learned!! >>> >>>Paul West >>>Adventure Kwest >>>Cal 39 >>>It might have helped, also, if the boat had some kind of alarm that would go off as soon as the bildge started filling up, but how many boats have such a thing? Then they'd have a chance to find and plug the leak, or declare an emergency earlier. >>>>> >>>>My Cal 20 has a "bilge" of perhaps 1". But beyond that, if you have a truly catastrophic failure, the warning isn't going to do you much good, I suspect. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >

I stuck a bucket under the exhaust of my Yanmar 3GM30. 2 GPM at idle. Assuming an impeller pump is linear with rpm that's about 9 GPM at max rpm. My engine does not make a high capacity pump, so I'm not going to bother. If it's last resort my intake hose is easy to reach and cut with a knife. I've seen other engine makes pump a lot more water than mine though, so YMMV. John From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. A friend had a Y-valve in the intake to the engine cooling water. When the valve was switched, the inlet was the bilge instead of the sea water. The engine then became a very high capacity bilge pump. Allen

A proper seacock, not a ball valve, is not likely to be a failure point. A real seacock has a flange, threads onto the thruhull then you through bolt the flange to the hull. ABYC calls for something like withstanding 500 lbs of force on the extreme inside point for some number of seconds This guy has a lot of good articles, here's a primer on seacocks and why ball valves are bad: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer&page=1 (see more articles at: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects) Same guy does these videos Marelon plastic seacock (as opposed to ball valve) passes ABYC standard. Problem is this is an OEM product, probably difficult to imposible to buy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tzB3IiImpo Marelon ball valve on Marelon throughhull fails: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5ajZ3nfzzQ Failure of Marelon ball valve on bronze flange adaptor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbuCZ1Xd1s Bronze through hull and bronze ball valve fails ABYC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzKb0rm56Zk Confession: I have no proper seacocks, all are ball valves on through hulls. Don't know if I'll ever get around to installing real seacocks. John From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 PM Subject: Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. I have a really neat 500 gph D.C. bildge pump. I got it twelve years ago. It was on sale at West Marine. It is still in its blister pack. I still haven't gotten around to installing it . I'll need a bildge switch and an auxiliary panel for it. Meanwhile, I have the obligatory piston pump to qualify for near shore racing, plus enuff one inch tubing to reach both fore and aft bildges. A permanently installed cockpit, hi capacity pump was on my 'to do' list but I've not gotten around to it. I carry a "four man" Sevyor dinghy with protective abrasions skirt. I do have an electric pump for it, as well as two manual air pumps, a piston style and a foot pedal style, but it takes a good fifteen or twenty minutes to inflate it. I guess the question is, in a catastrophe, is it possible to inflate the thing while treading water? Maybe I should try it. On the other hand, is there such a thing as a compressed air cylinder with a regulator that could inflate the thing, or can an emergency CO2 cartridge be adapted to that? I can imagine, pumping like mad while treading water would keep you warm in 60 degree water, no? None of my thru hulls have valves, since I believe the weakest link would be the valve and its connection to the thru hull. My auxilliary is on a stern mounted, Fulton, scissors style lifting unit bolted to the transom. With a set up like this, I don't have any problem with water in the bildge, the only danger is colliding with something that could severely damage the hull, like a shipping container fallen off a ship, a container ship, another small craft, such as a suicidal stink pot driver. I guess, in my head, my boat already is in the same scale size as a life boat, an idea that is reinforced after I parked my boat alongside the dinghy dock at King Harbor yacht club and she didn't look out of place. As a rule, I never wear a PFD, since all the ones I have are either too small to be comfortable, or are of the cheap, uncomfortable foam block collar one size fits all . My crew, on the other hand, has two PFD's one built into a foully coat, the other a suspender style unit. I guess, for most of my sailing, I'm assuming I could swim to shore, unless I'm midway in the San Pedro channel, in which case, the trick will be to stay afloat until I can flag down a boat going between the mainland and Catalina, or, that I'll be lucky and not have a mishap. As they say, one hand for the boat at all times, unless I'm braced against the shrouds or the pulpit. Also, I've had two MOB recoveries under my belt which went very quickly without a hitch. Having very low freeboard on my boat is a definite plus in this case. And I will say, everyone should, at the very least, practice recovering things blown overboard, like hats, to gain a perspective of how difficult it can be, not only to get the boat turned around and stopped, but how easy it is to lose sight of your target, especially when looking into the sun. Jerry Cal 24 Shpritz.

On 2/26/2013 5:31 PM, roline wrote: > > > HOW MANY HAVE 2 BILGE PUMPS?? > One small to cycle most of the time and a LARGE one that is higher up > for true emergencies? Or better still, a large hand-operated diaphragm pump mounted on a board with hoses attached? This will work when the electrical system is kaflooey, and it has the remarkable quality of working better the more worried you become. Neither of my boats has an electric pump. The Cal 20 doesn't have a battery. The other boat came with a small brass & bronze cylinder pump, mostly to remove drainage from the icebox, I suspect. I've added a diaphragm pump to that one. The Cal 20 came with no pump at all. I've got a fairly large (long) cylinder pump stashed in the cockpit locker, the kind used in rowboats in the 1950s. > I even have a little portable setup with a 10ft hose and 15 ft power > cord for connecting to batteries or cig lighters. I've used it to save > several boats at the marina that were sitting low enough that you > could not board them without being afraid of pushing them stern under.... Three years ago I went to my other boat, which lives in a marina, and found a big float-bag-and-gas-powered-pump operation refloating the boat next to mine. The guy had run his freshwater hose into the water tank and wandered off. The tank's vent was inside the cabin. I'm not sure I'd want to go sailing with that guy.... Chris Campbell >

John, I watched some of those videos you suggested.My Cal 24 Mentor, Steve Cole who was the editor of the Cal 24 class magazine, ditched his marlon valves and or fittings on his cockpit drains when his shifting five hp outboard snapped fitting. I kept my original Marlon thru hulls, as I am more worried about de-zincafication. When I stowed my O.B. Below I was sure to stow and secure it away from those fittings, tying it fore and aft, to the salon deck, forward bulkhead, and centerboard trunk. Otherwise, I don't see the point in putting huge stresses broadside on a thru hull fitting of any type. And bolting a flanged valve to a hull makes for three more holes in the hull to leak. I'm not sure what is the proper way to mount this except glueing a proper engineered plastic plate to the inside of a hull, which of course, may have a curved shaped. A de-zinced bronze fitting is just as likely to snap as Marlon, one, probably much more so. Anyway, that's my thinking. And any kind of valve that is not exercised frequently is likely not to budge when you need it most. I see this frequently in my solar installations, and that's what scares me the most. Maybe a plastic lined bronze valve is the way to go, but I don't any such thing exists. It seems to me, also, you could make a stronger valve out of plastic these days. Jerry From: John Courter <ca… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:19 PM Subject: Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. A proper seacock, not a ball valve, is not likely to be a failure point. A real seacock has a flange, threads onto the thruhull then you through bolt the flange to the hull. ABYC calls for something like withstanding 500 lbs of force on the extreme inside point for some number of seconds This guy has a lot of good articles, here's a primer on seacocks and why ball valves are bad: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer&page=1 (see more articles at: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects) Same guy does these videos Marelon plastic seacock (as opposed to ball valve) passes ABYC standard. Problem is this is an OEM product, probably difficult to imposible to buy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tzB3IiImpo Marelon ball valve on Marelon throughhull fails: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5ajZ3nfzzQ Failure of Marelon ball valve on bronze flange adaptor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbuCZ1Xd1s Bronze through hull and bronze ball valve fails ABYC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzKb0rm56Zk Confession: I have no proper seacocks, all are ball valves on through hulls. Don't know if I'll ever get around to installing real seacocks. John From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 PM Subject: Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. I have a really neat 500 gph D.C. bildge pump. I got it twelve years ago. It was on sale at West Marine. It is still in its blister pack. I still haven't gotten around to installing it . I'll need a bildge switch and an auxiliary panel for it. Meanwhile, I have the obligatory piston pump to qualify for near shore racing, plus enuff one inch tubing to reach both fore and aft bildges. A permanently installed cockpit, hi capacity pump was on my 'to do' list but I've not gotten around to it. I carry a "four man" Sevyor dinghy with protective abrasions skirt. I do have an electric pump for it, as well as two manual air pumps, a piston style and a foot pedal style, but it takes a good fifteen or twenty minutes to inflate it. I guess the question is, in a catastrophe, is it possible to inflate the thing while treading water? Maybe I should try it. On the other hand, is there such a thing as a compressed air cylinder with a regulator that could inflate the thing, or can an emergency CO2 cartridge be adapted to that? I can imagine, pumping like mad while treading water would keep you warm in 60 degree water, no? None of my thru hulls have valves, since I believe the weakest link would be the valve and its connection to the thru hull. My auxilliary is on a stern mounted, Fulton, scissors style lifting unit bolted to the transom. With a set up like this, I don't have any problem with water in the bildge, the only danger is colliding with something that could severely damage the hull, like a shipping container fallen off a ship, a container ship, another small craft, such as a suicidal stink pot driver. I guess, in my head, my boat already is in the same scale size as a life boat, an idea that is reinforced after I parked my boat alongside the dinghy dock at King Harbor yacht club and she didn't look out of place. As a rule, I never wear a PFD, since all the ones I have are either too small to be comfortable, or are of the cheap, uncomfortable foam block collar one size fits all . My crew, on the other hand, has two PFD's one built into a foully coat, the other a suspender style unit. I guess, for most of my sailing, I'm assuming I could swim to shore, unless I'm midway in the San Pedro channel, in which case, the trick will be to stay afloat until I can flag down a boat going between the mainland and Catalina, or, that I'll be lucky and not have a mishap. As they say, one hand for the boat at all times, unless I'm braced against the shrouds or the pulpit. Also, I've had two MOB recoveries under my belt which went very quickly without a hitch. Having very low freeboard on my boat is a definite plus in this case. And I will say, everyone should, at the very least, practice recovering things blown overboard, like hats, to gain a perspective of how difficult it can be, not only to get the boat turned around and stopped, but how easy it is to lose sight of your target, especially when looking into the sun. Jerry Cal 24 Shpritz.

If it is a copper zinc alloy isn't it called brass and not bronze? Allen On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > John, I watched some of those videos you suggested.My Cal 24 Mentor, Steve > Cole who was the editor of the Cal 24 class magazine, ditched his marlon > valves and or fittings on his cockpit drains when his shifting five hp > outboard snapped fitting. I kept my original Marlon thru hulls, as I am > more worried about de-zincafication. When I stowed my O.B. Below I was sure > to stow and secure it away from those fittings, tying it fore and aft, to > the salon deck, forward bulkhead, and centerboard trunk. Otherwise, I don't > see the point in putting huge stresses broadside on a thru hull fitting of > any type. And bolting a flanged valve to a hull makes for three more holes > in the hull to leak. I'm not sure what is the proper way to mount this > except glueing a proper engineered plastic plate to the inside of a hull, > which of course, may have a curved shaped. A de-zinced bronze fitting is > just as likely to snap as Marlon, one, probably much more so. Anyway, > that's my thinking. And any kind of valve that is not exercised frequently > is likely not to budge when you need it most. I see this frequently in my > solar installations, and that's what scares me the most. Maybe a plastic > lined bronze valve is the way to go, but I don't any such thing exists. It > seems to me, also, you could make a stronger valve out of plastic these > days. > Jerry > > ------------------------------ > *From:* John Courter <ca… [at] yahoo.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:19 PM > *Subject:* Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat > sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. > > > A proper seacock, not a ball valve, is not likely to be a failure point. > A real seacock has a flange, threads onto the thruhull then you through > bolt the flange to the hull. ABYC calls for something like withstanding > 500 lbs of force on the extreme inside point for some number of seconds > > This guy has a lot of good articles, here's a primer on seacocks and why > ball valves are bad: > http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer&page=1 > (see more articles at: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects) > > Same guy does these videos > > Marelon plastic seacock (as opposed to ball valve) passes ABYC standard. > Problem is this is an OEM product, probably difficult to imposible to buy > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tzB3IiImpo > > Marelon ball valve on Marelon throughhull fails: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5ajZ3nfzzQ > > Failure of Marelon ball valve on bronze flange adaptor: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbuCZ1Xd1s > > Bronze through hull and bronze ball valve fails ABYC: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzKb0rm56Zk > > > Confession: I have no proper seacocks, all are ball valves on through > hulls. Don't know if I'll ever get around to installing real seacocks. > > John > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 PM > *Subject:* Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat > sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. > > > I have a really neat 500 gph D.C. bildge pump. I got it twelve years ago. > It was on sale at West Marine. It is still in its blister pack. I still > haven't gotten around to installing it . I'll need a bildge switch and an > auxiliary panel for it. Meanwhile, I have the obligatory piston pump to > qualify for near shore racing, plus enuff one inch tubing to reach both > fore and aft bildges. A permanently installed cockpit, hi capacity pump was > on my 'to do' list but I've not gotten around to it. > I carry a "four man" Sevyor dinghy with protective abrasions skirt. I do > have an electric pump for it, as well as two manual air pumps, a piston > style and a foot pedal style, but it takes a good fifteen or twenty minutes > to inflate it. I guess the question is, in a catastrophe, is it possible to > inflate the thing while treading water? Maybe I should try it. On the other > hand, is there such a thing as a compressed air cylinder with a regulator > that could inflate the thing, or can an emergency CO2 cartridge be adapted > to that? I can imagine, pumping like mad while treading water would keep > you warm in 60 degree water, no? None of my thru hulls have valves, since I > believe the weakest link would be the valve and its connection to the thru > hull. My auxilliary is on a stern mounted, Fulton, scissors style lifting > unit bolted to the transom. With a set up like this, I don't have any > problem with water in the bildge, the only danger is colliding with > something that could severely damage the hull, like a shipping container > fallen off a ship, a container ship, another small craft, such as a > suicidal stink pot driver. I guess, in my head, my boat already is in the > same scale size as a life boat, an idea that is reinforced after I parked > my boat alongside the dinghy dock at King Harbor yacht club and she didn't > look out of place. As a rule, I never wear a PFD, since all the ones I have > are either too small to be comfortable, or are of the cheap, uncomfortable > foam block collar one size fits all . My crew, on the other hand, has two > PFD's one built into a foully coat, the other a suspender style unit. I > guess, for most of my sailing, I'm assuming I could swim to shore, unless > I'm midway in the San Pedro channel, in which case, the trick will be to > stay afloat until I can flag down a boat going between the mainland and > Catalina, or, that I'll be lucky and not have a mishap. As they say, one > hand for the boat at all times, unless I'm braced against the shrouds or > the pulpit. Also, I've had two MOB recoveries under my belt which went very > quickly without a hitch. Having very low freeboard on my boat is a definite > plus in this case. And I will say, everyone should, at the very least, > practice recovering things blown overboard, like hats, to gain a > perspective of how difficult it can be, not only to get the boat turned > around and stopped, but how easy it is to lose sight of your target, > especially when looking into the sun. > Jerry > Cal 24 Shpritz. > > ------------------------------ > > > > > >

Just a small correction, from the actual standard document (1998 I think) 7.1 A seacock may have an integral flange to individually and securely mount the device directly to the boat hull structure or may be without a flange if designed to be supported entirely by the through-hull fitting which is secured to the hull with its retaining nut. Thus, a "real" seacock need NOT have a flange. No reason to make this harder than necessary! The other pertinent spec is the requirement that the operation take only 90 degrees of arc. Ted Wrobel CAL 33 Celebration Newport, RI _____ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:41 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear(John) John, I watched some of those videos you suggested.My Cal 24 Mentor, Steve Cole who was the editor of the Cal 24 class magazine, ditched his marlon valves and or fittings on his cockpit drains when his shifting five hp outboard snapped fitting. I kept my original Marlon thru hulls, as I am more worried about de-zincafication. When I stowed my O.B. Below I was sure to stow and secure it away from those fittings, tying it fore and aft, to the salon deck, forward bulkhead, and centerboard trunk. Otherwise, I don't see the point in putting huge stresses broadside on a thru hull fitting of any type. And bolting a flanged valve to a hull makes for three more holes in the hull to leak. I'm not sure what is the proper way to mount this except glueing a proper engineered plastic plate to the inside of a hull, which of course, may have a curved shaped. A de-zinced bronze fitting is just as likely to snap as Marlon, one, probably much more so. Anyway, that's my thinking. And any kind of valve that is not exercised frequently is likely not to budge when you need it most. I see this frequently in my solar installations, and that's what scares me the most. Maybe a plastic lined bronze valve is the way to go, but I don't any such thing exists. It seems to me, also, you could make a stronger valve out of plastic these days. Jerry _____ From: John Courter <ca… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:19 PM Subject: Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. A proper seacock, not a ball valve, is not likely to be a failure point. A real seacock has a flange, threads onto the thruhull then you through bolt the flange to the hull. ABYC calls for something like withstanding 500 lbs of force on the extreme inside point for some number of seconds This guy has a lot of good articles, here's a primer on seacocks and why ball valves are bad: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer&page=1 (see more articles at: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects) Same guy does these videos Marelon plastic seacock (as opposed to ball valve) passes ABYC standard. Problem is this is an OEM product, probably difficult to imposible to buy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tzB3IiImpo Marelon ball valve on Marelon throughhull fails: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5ajZ3nfzzQ Failure of Marelon ball valve on bronze flange adaptor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbuCZ1Xd1s Bronze through hull and bronze ball valve fails ABYC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzKb0rm56Zk Confession: I have no proper seacocks, all are ball valves on through hulls. Don't know if I'll ever get around to installing real seacocks. John _____ From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 PM Subject: Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. I have a really neat 500 gph D.C. bildge pump. I got it twelve years ago. It was on sale at West Marine. It is still in its blister pack. I still haven't gotten around to installing it . I'll need a bildge switch and an auxiliary panel for it. Meanwhile, I have the obligatory piston pump to qualify for near shore racing, plus enuff one inch tubing to reach both fore and aft bildges. A permanently installed cockpit, hi capacity pump was on my 'to do' list but I've not gotten around to it. I carry a "four man" Sevyor dinghy with protective abrasions skirt. I do have an electric pump for it, as well as two manual air pumps, a piston style and a foot pedal style, but it takes a good fifteen or twenty minutes to inflate it. I guess the question is, in a catastrophe, is it possible to inflate the thing while treading water? Maybe I should try it. On the other hand, is there such a thing as a compressed air cylinder with a regulator that could inflate the thing, or can an emergency CO2 cartridge be adapted to that? I can imagine, pumping like mad while treading water would keep you warm in 60 degree water, no? None of my thru hulls have valves, since I believe the weakest link would be the valve and its connection to the thru hull. My auxilliary is on a stern mounted, Fulton, scissors style lifting unit bolted to the transom. With a set up like this, I don't have any problem with water in the bildge, the only danger is colliding with something that could severely damage the hull, like a shipping container fallen off a ship, a container ship, another small craft, such as a suicidal stink pot driver. I guess, in my head, my boat already is in the same scale size as a life boat, an idea that is reinforced after I parked my boat alongside the dinghy dock at King Harbor yacht club and she didn't look out of place. As a rule, I never wear a PFD, since all the ones I have are either too small to be comfortable, or are of the cheap, uncomfortable foam block collar one size fits all . My crew, on the other hand, has two PFD's one built into a foully coat, the other a suspender style unit. I guess, for most of my sailing, I'm assuming I could swim to shore, unless I'm midway in the San Pedro channel, in which case, the trick will be to stay afloat until I can flag down a boat going between the mainland and Catalina, or, that I'll be lucky and not have a mishap. As they say, one hand for the boat at all times, unless I'm braced against the shrouds or the pulpit. Also, I've had two MOB recoveries under my belt which went very quickly without a hitch. Having very low freeboard on my boat is a definite plus in this case. And I will say, everyone should, at the very least, practice recovering things blown overboard, like hats, to gain a perspective of how difficult it can be, not only to get the boat turned around and stopped, but how easy it is to lose sight of your target, especially when looking into the sun. Jerry Cal 24 Shpritz. _____ _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5636 - Release Date: 02/27/13

The original CAL 25, and I'm sure many others, had gate valves with turning knobs like you'd find on a hose spigot (and probably procured at the same place). I believe we have totally purged the fleet of those. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ted Wrobel Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 1:58 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear(John) Just a small correction, from the actual standard document (1998 I think) 7.1 A seacock may have an integral flange to individually and securely mount the device directly to the boat hull structure or may be without a flange if designed to be supported entirely by the through-hull fitting which is secured to the hull with its retaining nut. Thus, a "real" seacock need NOT have a flange. No reason to make this harder than necessary! The other pertinent spec is the requirement that the operation take only 90 degrees of arc. Ted Wrobel CAL 33 Celebration Newport, RI From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:41 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear(John) John, I watched some of those videos you suggested.My Cal 24 Mentor, Steve Cole who was the editor of the Cal 24 class magazine, ditched his marlon valves and or fittings on his cockpit drains when his shifting five hp outboard snapped fitting. I kept my original Marlon thru hulls, as I am more worried about de-zincafication. When I stowed my O.B. Below I was sure to stow and secure it away from those fittings, tying it fore and aft, to the salon deck, forward bulkhead, and centerboard trunk. Otherwise, I don't see the point in putting huge stresses broadside on a thru hull fitting of any type. And bolting a flanged valve to a hull makes for three more holes in the hull to leak. I'm not sure what is the proper way to mount this except glueing a proper engineered plastic plate to the inside of a hull, which of course, may have a curved shaped. A de-zinced bronze fitting is just as likely to snap as Marlon, one, probably much more so. Anyway, that's my thinking. And any kind of valve that is not exercised frequently is likely not to budge when you need it most. I see this frequently in my solar installations, and that's what scares me the most. Maybe a plastic lined bronze valve is the way to go, but I don't any such thing exists. It seems to me, also, you could make a stronger valve out of plastic these days. Jerry From: John Courter <ca… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:19 PM Subject: Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. A proper seacock, not a ball valve, is not likely to be a failure point. A real seacock has a flange, threads onto the thruhull then you through bolt the flange to the hull. ABYC calls for something like withstanding 500 lbs of force on the extreme inside point for some number of seconds This guy has a lot of good articles, here's a primer on seacocks and why ball valves are bad: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer&page=1 (see more articles at: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects) Same guy does these videos Marelon plastic seacock (as opposed to ball valve) passes ABYC standard. Problem is this is an OEM product, probably difficult to imposible to buy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tzB3IiImpo Marelon ball valve on Marelon throughhull fails: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5ajZ3nfzzQ Failure of Marelon ball valve on bronze flange adaptor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbuCZ1Xd1s Bronze through hull and bronze ball valve fails ABYC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzKb0rm56Zk Confession: I have no proper seacocks, all are ball valves on through hulls. Don't know if I'll ever get around to installing real seacocks. John From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 PM Subject: Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. I have a really neat 500 gph D.C. bildge pump. I got it twelve years ago. It was on sale at West Marine. It is still in its blister pack. I still haven't gotten around to installing it . I'll need a bildge switch and an auxiliary panel for it. Meanwhile, I have the obligatory piston pump to qualify for near shore racing, plus enuff one inch tubing to reach both fore and aft bildges. A permanently installed cockpit, hi capacity pump was on my 'to do' list but I've not gotten around to it. I carry a "four man" Sevyor dinghy with protective abrasions skirt. I do have an electric pump for it, as well as two manual air pumps, a piston style and a foot pedal style, but it takes a good fifteen or twenty minutes to inflate it. I guess the question is, in a catastrophe, is it possible to inflate the thing while treading water? Maybe I should try it. On the other hand, is there such a thing as a compressed air cylinder with a regulator that could inflate the thing, or can an emergency CO2 cartridge be adapted to that? I can imagine, pumping like mad while treading water would keep you warm in 60 degree water, no? None of my thru hulls have valves, since I believe the weakest link would be the valve and its connection to the thru hull. My auxilliary is on a stern mounted, Fulton, scissors style lifting unit bolted to the transom. With a set up like this, I don't have any problem with water in the bildge, the only danger is colliding with something that could severely damage the hull, like a shipping container fallen off a ship, a container ship, another small craft, such as a suicidal stink pot driver. I guess, in my head, my boat already is in the same scale size as a life boat, an idea that is reinforced after I parked my boat alongside the dinghy dock at King Harbor yacht club and she didn't look out of place. As a rule, I never wear a PFD, since all the ones I have are either too small to be comfortable, or are of the cheap, uncomfortable foam block collar one size fits all . My crew, on the other hand, has two PFD's one built into a foully coat, the other a suspender style unit. I guess, for most of my sailing, I'm assuming I could swim to shore, unless I'm midway in the San Pedro channel, in which case, the trick will be to stay afloat until I can flag down a boat going between the mainland and Catalina, or, that I'll be lucky and not have a mishap. As they say, one hand for the boat at all times, unless I'm braced against the shrouds or the pulpit. Also, I've had two MOB recoveries under my belt which went very quickly without a hitch. Having very low freeboard on my boat is a definite plus in this case. And I will say, everyone should, at the very least, practice recovering things blown overboard, like hats, to gain a perspective of how difficult it can be, not only to get the boat turned around and stopped, but how easy it is to lose sight of your target, especially when looking into the sun. Jerry Cal 24 Shpritz. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5636 - Release Date: 02/27/13

True bronze does not have zink in it. Seems hard to find now days.Don't remember having that trouble when I was a kid. Dan R On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > John, I watched some of those videos you suggested.My Cal 24 Mentor, Steve > Cole who was the editor of the Cal 24 class magazine, ditched his marlon > valves and or fittings on his cockpit drains when his shifting five hp > outboard snapped fitting. I kept my original Marlon thru hulls, as I am > more worried about de-zincafication. When I stowed my O.B. Below I was sure > to stow and secure it away from those fittings, tying it fore and aft, to > the salon deck, forward bulkhead, and centerboard trunk. Otherwise, I don't > see the point in putting huge stresses broadside on a thru hull fitting of > any type. And bolting a flanged valve to a hull makes for three more holes > in the hull to leak. I'm not sure what is the proper way to mount this > except glueing a proper engineered plastic plate to the inside of a hull, > which of course, may have a curved shaped. A de-zinced bronze fitting is > just as likely to snap as Marlon, one, probably much more so. Anyway, > that's my thinking. And any kind of valve that is not exercised frequently > is likely not to budge when you need it most. I see this frequently in my > solar installations, and that's what scares me the most. Maybe a plastic > lined bronze valve is the way to go, but I don't any such thing exists. It > seems to me, also, you could make a stronger valve out of plastic these > days. > Jerry > > ------------------------------ > *From:* John Courter <ca… [at] yahoo.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:19 PM > *Subject:* Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat > sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. > > > A proper seacock, not a ball valve, is not likely to be a failure point. > A real seacock has a flange, threads onto the thruhull then you through > bolt the flange to the hull. ABYC calls for something like withstanding > 500 lbs of force on the extreme inside point for some number of seconds > > This guy has a lot of good articles, here's a primer on seacocks and why > ball valves are bad: > http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer&page=1 > (see more articles at: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects) > > Same guy does these videos > > Marelon plastic seacock (as opposed to ball valve) passes ABYC standard. > Problem is this is an OEM product, probably difficult to imposible to buy > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tzB3IiImpo > > Marelon ball valve on Marelon throughhull fails: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5ajZ3nfzzQ > > Failure of Marelon ball valve on bronze flange adaptor: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbuCZ1Xd1s > > Bronze through hull and bronze ball valve fails ABYC: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzKb0rm56Zk > > > Confession: I have no proper seacocks, all are ball valves on through > hulls. Don't know if I'll ever get around to installing real seacocks. > > John > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 PM > *Subject:* Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat > sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. > > > I have a really neat 500 gph D.C. bildge pump. I got it twelve years ago. > It was on sale at West Marine. It is still in its blister pack. I still > haven't gotten around to installing it . I'll need a bildge switch and an > auxiliary panel for it. Meanwhile, I have the obligatory piston pump to > qualify for near shore racing, plus enuff one inch tubing to reach both > fore and aft bildges. A permanently installed cockpit, hi capacity pump was > on my 'to do' list but I've not gotten around to it. > I carry a "four man" Sevyor dinghy with protective abrasions skirt. I do > have an electric pump for it, as well as two manual air pumps, a piston > style and a foot pedal style, but it takes a good fifteen or twenty minutes > to inflate it. I guess the question is, in a catastrophe, is it possible to > inflate the thing while treading water? Maybe I should try it. On the other > hand, is there such a thing as a compressed air cylinder with a regulator > that could inflate the thing, or can an emergency CO2 cartridge be adapted > to that? I can imagine, pumping like mad while treading water would keep > you warm in 60 degree water, no? None of my thru hulls have valves, since I > believe the weakest link would be the valve and its connection to the thru > hull. My auxilliary is on a stern mounted, Fulton, scissors style lifting > unit bolted to the transom. With a set up like this, I don't have any > problem with water in the bildge, the only danger is colliding with > something that could severely damage the hull, like a shipping container > fallen off a ship, a container ship, another small craft, such as a > suicidal stink pot driver. I guess, in my head, my boat already is in the > same scale size as a life boat, an idea that is reinforced after I parked > my boat alongside the dinghy dock at King Harbor yacht club and she didn't > look out of place. As a rule, I never wear a PFD, since all the ones I have > are either too small to be comfortable, or are of the cheap, uncomfortable > foam block collar one size fits all . My crew, on the other hand, has two > PFD's one built into a foully coat, the other a suspender style unit. I > guess, for most of my sailing, I'm assuming I could swim to shore, unless > I'm midway in the San Pedro channel, in which case, the trick will be to > stay afloat until I can flag down a boat going between the mainland and > Catalina, or, that I'll be lucky and not have a mishap. As they say, one > hand for the boat at all times, unless I'm braced against the shrouds or > the pulpit. Also, I've had two MOB recoveries under my belt which went very > quickly without a hitch. Having very low freeboard on my boat is a definite > plus in this case. And I will say, everyone should, at the very least, > practice recovering things blown overboard, like hats, to gain a > perspective of how difficult it can be, not only to get the boat turned > around and stopped, but how easy it is to lose sight of your target, > especially when looking into the sun. > Jerry > Cal 24 Shpritz. > > ------------------------------ > > > > > >

Some bronzes have zinc, but only a couple of percent. Another problem is naming conventions. Manganese bronze, which some propellers are made of is actually a brass with 40% zinc in it. Recently saw a friend's one bladed prop. It was clear to see the pink of de-zincification where the missing blade had been attached. I think ABYC is all about addressing the forgetful or ignorant boater who would be surprised to find themselves on a sinking boat because they didn't know or think to secure their outboard lying near a through hull. I also am not excited about drilling extra holes in my boat. If I ever install flanged seacocks I will glue on a backing plate of something like G-10 fiberglass that I can tap threads into and not go all the way through the hull. To me it looks like the series 93 Marelon flanged seacock is the way to go, but as it is an OEM product it is supposed to be hard to get. From: Daniel Richmond <da… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear(John) True bronze does not have zink in it. Seems hard to find now days.Don't remember having that trouble when I was a kid. Dan R On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > >John, I watched some of those videos you suggested.My Cal 24 Mentor, Steve Cole who was the editor of the Cal 24 class magazine, ditched his marlon valves and or fittings on his cockpit drains when his shifting five hp outboard snapped fitting. I kept my original Marlon thru hulls, as I am more worried about de-zincafication. When I stowed my O.B. Below I was sure to stow and secure it away from those fittings, tying it fore and aft, to the salon deck, forward bulkhead, and centerboard trunk. Otherwise, I don't see the point in putting huge stresses broadside on a thru hull fitting of any type. And bolting a flanged valve to a hull makes for three more holes in the hull to leak. I'm not sure what is the proper way to mount this except glueing a proper engineered plastic plate to the inside of a hull, which of course, may have a curved shaped. A de-zinced bronze fitting is just as likely to snap as Marlon, one, probably much more so. Anyway, that's my thinking. And any kind of valve that is not exercised frequently is likely not to budge when you need it most. I see this frequently in my solar installations, and that's what scares me the most. Maybe a plastic lined bronze valve is the way to go, but I don't any such thing exists. It seems to me, also, you could make a stronger valve out of plastic these days. > >Jerry > > > > >________________________________ > From: John Courter <ca… [at] yahoo.com> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:19 PM >Subject: Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. > > > >A proper seacock, not a ball valve, is not likely to be a failure point. A real seacock has a flange, threads onto the thruhull then you through bolt the flange to the hull. ABYC calls for something like withstanding 500 lbs of force on the extreme inside point for some number of seconds > > >This guy has a lot of good articles, here's a primer on seacocks and why ball valves are bad: >http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer&page=1 > > (see more articles at: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects) > > >Same guy does these videos > > >Marelon plastic seacock (as opposed to ball valve) passes ABYC standard. Problem is this is an OEM product, probably difficult to imposible to buy >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tzB3IiImpo > > > >Marelon ball valve on Marelon throughhull fails: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5ajZ3nfzzQ > > > >Failure of Marelon ball valve on bronze flange adaptor: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbuCZ1Xd1s > > >Bronze through hull and bronze ball valve fails ABYC: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzKb0rm56Zk > > > > > >Confession: I have no proper seacocks, all are ball valves on through hulls. Don't know if I'll ever get around to installing real seacocks. > > >John > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > >

I think they are trying to include things like the Groco flange adapter in their code. Maine Sail talks about this adaptor in this link I posted before: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer Here he's putting the flange on the hull via a backing plate and not having to drill extra holes in the hull: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/backing_blocks From: Ted Wrobel <tw… [at] tacticaltech.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:57 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear(John) Just a small correction, from the actual standard document (1998 I think) 7.1 A seacock may have an integral flange to individually and securely mount the device directly to the boat hull structure or may be without a flange if designed to be supported entirely by the through-hull fitting which is secured to the hull with its retaining nut. Thus, a "real" seacock need NOT have a flange. No reason to make this harder than necessary! The other pertinent spec is the requirement that the operation take only 90 degrees of arc. Ted Wrobel CAL 33 Celebration Newport, RI From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:41 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear(John) John, I watched some of those videos you suggested.My Cal 24 Mentor, Steve Cole who was the editor of the Cal 24 class magazine, ditched his marlon valves and or fittings on his cockpit drains when his shifting five hp outboard snapped fitting. I kept my original Marlon thru hulls, as I am more worried about de-zincafication. When I stowed my O.B. Below I was sure to stow and secure it away from those fittings, tying it fore and aft, to the salon deck, forward bulkhead, and centerboard trunk. Otherwise, I don't see the point in putting huge stresses broadside on a thru hull fitting of any type. And bolting a flanged valve to a hull makes for three more holes in the hull to leak. I'm not sure what is the proper way to mount this except glueing a proper engineered plastic plate to the inside of a hull, which of course, may have a curved shaped. A de-zinced bronze fitting is just as likely to snap as Marlon, one, probably much more so. Anyway, that's my thinking. And any kind of valve that is not exercised frequently is likely not to budge when you need it most. I see this frequently in my solar installations, and that's what scares me the most. Maybe a plastic lined bronze valve is the way to go, but I don't any such thing exists. It seems to me, also, you could make a stronger valve out of plastic these days. Jerry From: John Courter <ca… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:19 PM Subject: Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. A proper seacock, not a ball valve, is not likely to be a failure point. A real seacock has a flange, threads onto the thruhull then you through bolt the flange to the hull. ABYC calls for something like withstanding 500 lbs of force on the extreme inside point for some number of seconds This guy has a lot of good articles, here's a primer on seacocks and why ball valves are bad: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer&page=1 (see more articles at: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects) Same guy does these videos Marelon plastic seacock (as opposed to ball valve) passes ABYC standard. Problem is this is an OEM product, probably difficult to imposible to buy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tzB3IiImpo Marelon ball valve on Marelon throughhull fails: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5ajZ3nfzzQ Failure of Marelon ball valve on bronze flange adaptor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbuCZ1Xd1s Bronze through hull and bronze ball valve fails ABYC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzKb0rm56Zk Confession: I have no proper seacocks, all are ball valves on through hulls. Don't know if I'll ever get around to installing real seacocks. John From: Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:43 PM Subject: Bildge pumps and safety gear, was:Re: [Cal_Boats] Sailboat sank off Santa Cruz yesterday. I have a really neat 500 gph D.C. bildge pump. I got it twelve years ago. It was on sale at West Marine. It is still in its blister pack. I still haven't gotten around to installing it . I'll need a bildge switch and an auxiliary panel for it. Meanwhile, I have the obligatory piston pump to qualify for near shore racing, plus enuff one inch tubing to reach both fore and aft bildges. A permanently installed cockpit, hi capacity pump was on my 'to do' list but I've not gotten around to it. I carry a "four man" Sevyor dinghy with protective abrasions skirt. I do have an electric pump for it, as well as two manual air pumps, a piston style and a foot pedal style, but it takes a good fifteen or twenty minutes to inflate it. I guess the question is, in a catastrophe, is it possible to inflate the thing while treading water? Maybe I should try it. On the other hand, is there such a thing as a compressed air cylinder with a regulator that could inflate the thing, or can an emergency CO2 cartridge be adapted to that? I can imagine, pumping like mad while treading water would keep you warm in 60 degree water, no? None of my thru hulls have valves, since I believe the weakest link would be the valve and its connection to the thru hull. My auxilliary is on a stern mounted, Fulton, scissors style lifting unit bolted to the transom. With a set up like this, I don't have any problem with water in the bildge, the only danger is colliding with something that could severely damage the hull, like a shipping container fallen off a ship, a container ship, another small craft, such as a suicidal stink pot driver. I guess, in my head, my boat already is in the same scale size as a life boat, an idea that is reinforced after I parked my boat alongside the dinghy dock at King Harbor yacht club and she didn't look out of place. As a rule, I never wear a PFD, since all the ones I have are either too small to be comfortable, or are of the cheap, uncomfortable foam block collar one size fits all . My crew, on the other hand, has two PFD's one built into a foully coat, the other a suspender style unit. I guess, for most of my sailing, I'm assuming I could swim to shore, unless I'm midway in the San Pedro channel, in which case, the trick will be to stay afloat until I can flag down a boat going between the mainland and Catalina, or, that I'll be lucky and not have a mishap. As they say, one hand for the boat at all times, unless I'm braced against the shrouds or the pulpit. Also, I've had two MOB recoveries under my belt which went very quickly without a hitch. Having very low freeboard on my boat is a definite plus in this case. And I will say, everyone should, at the very least, practice recovering things blown overboard, like hats, to gain a perspective of how difficult it can be, not only to get the boat turned around and stopped, but how easy it is to lose sight of your target, especially when looking into the sun. Jerry Cal 24 Shpritz. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5636 - Release Date: 02/27/13

I think this is in Illinois...... http://annapolis.craigslist.org/boa/3648506213.html

Your posting of the ABYC doc also made me realize that the Marelon OEM 93 series seacock doesn't have a flange in the sense of a place to bolt to the hull. It has a wide body that makes contact with the hull to distribute the load but is entirely held in place by the through hull. So this is designed to be entirely supported by the through hull. Link I posted before of the 93 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tzB3IiImpo From: Ted Wrobel <tw… [at] tacticaltech.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:57 AM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Re: Bildge pumps and safety gear(John) Just a small correction, from the actual standard document (1998 I think) 7.1 A seacock may have an integral flange to individually and securely mount the device directly to the boat hull structure or may be without a flange if designed to be supported entirely by the through-hull fitting which is secured to the hull with its retaining nut. Thus, a "real" seacock need NOT have a flange. No reason to make this harder than necessary! The other pertinent spec is the requirement that the operation take only 90 degrees of arc. Ted Wrobel CAL 33 Celebration Newport, RI