Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats

Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset on board any boat. Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II former co-owner of "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> writes: Joe, I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a thing or two about them... Cheers, Alex. On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated on a boat. Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. Bottom line - A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the details. Cheers, Alex. On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: > Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things (coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure powerboat). But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran just fine once we were in the clear. Chris Campbell > > No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/512ff9f65b88979f67bc9st03duc

Rod, I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be made safer. I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. Cheers, Alex. On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: > ** > > > ** > Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, a > Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an > improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is > shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them > or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is > relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a > portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I > still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. > > Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck > generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of > electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations > were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even > stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever > meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines > than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner > and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine > genset on board any boat. > > Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" > 1979 O'DAY DS II > former co-owner of "NODROG" > 1970 CAL 21 > > On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> > writes: > > > > Joe, > > I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be > painting a grimmer picture than it really is. > > Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and > outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a > potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store > them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that > marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a > below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas > are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. > > A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main > engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. > > Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a > claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in > any fire. > > I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric > conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a > thing or two about them... > > Cheers, > Alex. > > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com>wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> **A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY >> dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not >> comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and >> the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated >> on a boat. >> >> Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover >> that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. >> >> Bottom line - >> A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. >> >> *Joe DeMers - owner* >> >> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >> >> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 <%28860%29%20666-2184>* >> >> >> >> On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >> >> Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously >> considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 >> with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few >> times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might >> have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get >> in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I >> wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the >> diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including >> a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the >> details. >> >> Cheers, >> Alex. >> On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: >>> > Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, >>> although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >>> >>> So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents >>> to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things >>> (coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence >>> periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there >>> was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had >>> launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure >>> powerboat). >>> >>> But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop >>> off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was >>> headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing >>> power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched >>> along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and >>> exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >>> just fine once we were in the clear. >>> >>> Chris Campbell >>> > >>> > >>> >>> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >> >> >> -- >> >> *Joe DeMers - owner* >> >> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >> >> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* >> >> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *Woman is 53 But Looks 25* > Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/512ff9f65b88979f67bc9st03duc> > ConsumerLifestyleMag.com<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/512ff9f65b88979f67bc9st03duc> > >

Alex, I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's volatility. But more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can fill up a vessel. These are just risk I would not want to take. Terry On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > > Rod, > > I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be made safer. > > I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. > > Cheers, > Alex. > > On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: > > > Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. > > Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset on board any boat. > > Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" > 1979 O'DAY DS II > former co-owner of "NODROG" > 1970 CAL 21 > > On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> writes: > > Joe, > > I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. > > Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. > > A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. > > Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. > > I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a thing or two about them... > > Cheers, > Alex. > > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: > > A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated on a boat. > > Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. > > Bottom line - > A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. > > Joe DeMers - owner > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > > SoundMarineDiesel.com > phone & fax (860) 666-2184 > > > > > On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >> >> Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the details. >> >> Cheers, >> Alex. >> >> On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >> >> On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: >> > Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >> >> So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents >> to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things >> (coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence >> periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there >> was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had >> launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure powerboat). >> >> But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop >> off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was >> headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing >> power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched >> along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and >> exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >> just fine once we were in the clear. >> >> Chris Campbell >> > >> > >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >> > > -- > Joe DeMers - owner > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > > SoundMarineDiesel.com > phone & fax (860) 666-2184 > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Woman is 53 But Looks 25 > Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... > ConsumerLifestyleMag.com > > >

Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards pose, but I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if the generator is being run on deck. Am I missing something? On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com> wrote: > ** > > > Alex, > > I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have gasoline > stored in containers on a boat because of it's volatility. But more than > that. is the danger of CO gas that can fill up a vessel. These are just > risk I would not want to take. > > Terry > > > On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > > > > Rod, > > I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so > everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very > interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard > above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be > made safer. > > I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected > marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I > would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like > "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, > aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. > > Cheers, > Alex. > On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> ** >> Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, >> a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an >> improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is >> shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them >> or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is >> relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a >> portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I >> still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. >> >> Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck >> generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of >> electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations >> were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even >> stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever >> meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines >> than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner >> and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine >> genset on board any boat. >> >> Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >> 1979 O'DAY DS II >> former co-owner of "NODROG" >> 1970 CAL 21 >> >> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> >> writes: >> >> >> >> Joe, >> >> I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be >> painting a grimmer picture than it really is. >> >> Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and >> outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a >> potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store >> them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that >> marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a >> below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas >> are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. >> >> A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main >> engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. >> >> Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a >> claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in >> any fire. >> >> I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric >> conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a >> thing or two about them... >> >> Cheers, >> Alex. >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com>wrote: >> >>> ** >>> >>> >>> **A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY >>> dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not >>> comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and >>> the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated >>> on a boat. >>> >>> Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company >>> discover that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the >>> claim. >>> >>> Bottom line - >>> A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. >>> >>> *Joe DeMers - owner* >>> >>> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >>> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >>> >>> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 <%28860%29%20666-2184>* >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>> >>> Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been >>> seriously considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the >>> Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the >>> bay a few times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking >>> electric might have been a better option. I don't really use the engine >>> much except to get in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty >>> for that, and I wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little >>> things with the diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost >>> 4-5K, including a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could >>> dig up the details. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Alex. >>> On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: >>>> > Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, >>>> although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >>>> >>>> So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents >>>> to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things >>>> (coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence >>>> periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there >>>> was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had >>>> launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure >>>> powerboat). >>>> >>>> But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop >>>> off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner >>>> was >>>> headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing >>>> power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely >>>> inched >>>> along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and >>>> exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >>>> just fine once we were in the clear. >>>> >>>> Chris Campbell >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Joe DeMers - owner* >>> >>> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >>> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >>> >>> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> *Woman is 53 But Looks 25* >> Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... >> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/512ff9f65b88979f67bc9st03duc> >> ConsumerLifestyleMag.com >> >> > > >

No Alex, Joe has his his head up his as-. I sailed the 1988 Pacific Cup with a 500 watt Yamaha generator which supplied needs for VHF SSB GPS & running lites. Get real, Joe. Carbon Monxide. Al Gore and global warming! My Best, Mike Farrell Yellow Jack USA57313 From: Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards pose, but I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if the generator is being run on deck. Am I missing something? On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com> wrote: >Alex, > > >I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's volatility. But more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can fill up a vessel. These are just risk I would not want to take. > > >Terry > > > > >On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > > >> >> >>Rod, >>I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be made safer. >>I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. >>Cheers, >>Alex. >>On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: >> >> >>>Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. >>> >>>Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset on board any boat. >>> >>>Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >>>1979 O'DAY DS II >>>former co-owner of "NODROG" >>>1970 CAL 21 >>> >>>On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> writes: >>> >>>>Joe, >>>> >>>>I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. >>>> >>>>Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. >>>> >>>>A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. >>>> >>>>Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. >>>> >>>>I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a thing or two about them... >>>> >>>>Cheers, >>>>Alex. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated on a boat. >>>>> >>>>>Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. >>>>> >>>>>Bottom line - >>>>>A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. >>>>> >>>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>>>>Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the details. >>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>Alex. >>>>>>On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: >>>>>>>> Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents >>>>>>>to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things >>>>>>>(coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence >>>>>>>periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there >>>>>>>was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had >>>>>>>launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure powerboat). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop >>>>>>>off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was >>>>>>>headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing >>>>>>>power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched >>>>>>>along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and >>>>>>>exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >>>>>>>just fine once we were in the clear. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Chris Campbell >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>No virus found in this message. >>>>>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >>>>>>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>> >>>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>____________________________________________________________ >>>Woman is 53 But Looks 25 >>>Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... >>>ConsumerLifestyleMag.com >>> >>> >> >> >

BS! From: Rodney G. Johnson <rj… [at] juno.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset on board any boat. Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II former co-owner of "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> writes: >Joe, > >I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. > >Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. > >A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. > >Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. > >I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a thing or two about them... > >Cheers, >Alex. > > > >On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: > > >>A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated on a boat. >> >>Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. >> >>Bottom line - >>A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. >> >>Joe DeMers - owner >>Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com >>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >> >> >>On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the details. >>>Cheers, >>>Alex. >>>On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: >>>>> Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >>>> >>>>So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents >>>>to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things >>>>(coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence >>>>periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there >>>>was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had >>>>launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure powerboat). >>>> >>>>But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop >>>>off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was >>>>headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing >>>>power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched >>>>along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and >>>>exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >>>>just fine once we were in the clear. >>>> >>>>Chris Campbell >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>No virus found in this message. >>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >>>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >> >>-- >> >>Joe DeMers - owner >>Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com >>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 > > Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... ConsumerLifestyleMag.com

There are many dynamics working when a boat is moored in a breeze. For example, It is very common to have a slight vacuum in the cockpit / stern area. This can cause CO fumes from a gas genset to enter below. I just don't understand why anyone would operate a portable gasoline genset on a boat. Why oh why, take that risk? *Joe DeMers - owner * Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 <tel:%28860%29%20666-2184> * On 2/28/2013 10:14 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > > > Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards pose, > but I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if the > generator is being run on deck. Am I missing something? > > On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com > <mailto:ts… [at] harbornet.com>> wrote: > > Alex, > > > I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have > gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's > volatility. But more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can > fill up a vessel. These are just risk I would not want to take. > > Terry > > > On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > >> >> Rod, >> >> I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, >> so everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I >> would be very interested to hear why a well-built portable >> generator would be a hazard above decks, aside from it not having >> a marine rating, and how it can be made safer. >> >> I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a >> respected marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in >> that field and I would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, >> weary of statements like "a marine genset is cheaper than a >> funeral" without supporting details, aside from the lack of USCG >> and ABYC approval. >> >> Cheers, >> Alex. >> >> On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com >> <mailto:rj… [at] juno.com>> wrote: >> >> Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are >> MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the >> marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) >> propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how casually >> many people treat them...... even stupidly using them or >> stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup >> is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on >> conditions, using a portable generator on a boat "might" not >> be tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend it. >> To risky for most applications. >> Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an >> above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't >> care about the dangers of electric shock from that >> non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put >> in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even >> stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators >> would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot >> more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. I >> am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very >> uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset >> on board any boat. >> Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >> 1979 O'DAY DS II >> former co-owner of "NODROG" >> 1970 CAL 21 >> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze >> <kr… [at] gmail.com <mailto:kr… [at] gmail.com>> writes: >> >> Joe, >> >> I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that >> you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. >> >> Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies >> to Atomics and outboards as well, and people still use >> them. Propane tanks are also a potential threat. Hondas >> are not much different. If you don't run or store them >> below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a >> guess that marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage >> would only apply for a below-decks installation. My point >> is that with proper handling the Hondas are no more >> dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. >> >> A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more >> than a diesel main engine and would have the same >> maintenance headaches. >> >> Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any >> excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they would have >> to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. >> >> I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of >> electric conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I >> would think they know a thing or two about them... >> >> Cheers, >> Alex. >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers >> <je… [at] mindspring.com <mailto:je… [at] mindspring.com>> >> wrote: >> >> A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post >> below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas engines >> are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply with >> USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any >> boater [ and the boat's crew ] are put in grave >> danger when this type genset is operated on a boat. >> >> Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the >> insurance company discover that a non marine gasoline >> genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. >> >> Bottom line - >> A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. >> >> *Joe DeMers - owner * >> >> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >> >> SoundMarineDiesel.com >> <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >> >> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 <tel:%28860%29%20666-2184> * >> >> >> >> >> On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>> >>> Could be a good candidate for an electric >>> conversion. I've been seriously considering >>> converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the >>> Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a >>> chance to sail around the bay a few times and had >>> the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric >>> might have been a better option. I don't really use >>> the engine much except to get in and out of the >>> marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and >>> I wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging >>> little things with the diesel. At the time I >>> estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including >>> a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I >>> could dig up the details. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Alex. >>> >>> On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" >>> <cc… [at] lsnm.org <mailto:cc… [at] lsnm.org>> wrote: >>> >>> On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) >>> wrote: >>> > Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the >>> recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear is >>> quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >>> >>> So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal >>> 20, generally consents >>> to start and run, although despite rebuilding >>> all manner of things >>> (coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind >>> me of its independence >>> periodically by choosing its own RPM range and >>> smoke output. Then there >>> was the time the shift linkage broke, in >>> reverse, moments after I had >>> launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., >>> this was a pure powerboat). >>> >>> But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the >>> schooner berth to drop >>> off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel >>> just as the schooner was >>> headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the >>> outboard objected, losing >>> power and belching vast quantities of blue >>> smoke. The boat barely inched >>> along. Most of the propulsive force was my >>> exhortations and >>> exclamations at full volume directed at the >>> @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >>> just fine once we were in the clear. >>> >>> Chris Campbell >>> > >>> > >>> >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/> >>> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - >>> Release Date: 02/27/13 >>> >> >> -- >> >> *Joe DeMers - owner * >> >> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >> >> SoundMarineDiesel.com >> <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >> >> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 <tel:%28860%29%20666-2184> * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> *Woman is 53 But Looks 25* >> Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... >> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/512ff9f65b88979f67bc9st03duc>ConsumerLifestyleMag.com >> >> >> > > > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > -- *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184*

BS! From: Terry Spencer <ts… [at] harbornet.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats Alex, I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's volatility. But more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can fill up a vessel. These are just risk I would not want to take. Terry On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > > >Rod, >I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be made safer. >I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. >Cheers, >Alex. >On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: > > >>Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. >> >>Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset on board any boat. >> >>Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >>1979 O'DAY DS II >>former co-owner of "NODROG" >>1970 CAL 21 >> >>On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> writes: >> >>>Joe, >>> >>>I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. >>> >>>Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. >>> >>>A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. >>> >>>Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. >>> >>>I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a thing or two about them... >>> >>>Cheers, >>>Alex. >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated on a boat. >>>> >>>>Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. >>>> >>>>Bottom line - >>>>A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. >>>> >>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>> >>>> >>>>On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>>>Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the details. >>>>>Cheers, >>>>>Alex. >>>>>On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: >>>>>>> Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >>>>>> >>>>>>So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents >>>>>>to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things >>>>>>(coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence >>>>>>periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there >>>>>>was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had >>>>>>launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure powerboat). >>>>>> >>>>>>But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop >>>>>>off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was >>>>>>headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing >>>>>>power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched >>>>>>along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and >>>>>>exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >>>>>>just fine once we were in the clear. >>>>>> >>>>>>Chris Campbell >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>No virus found in this message. >>>>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >>>>>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >>>> >>>>-- >>>> >>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>____________________________________________________________ >>Woman is 53 But Looks 25 >>Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... >>ConsumerLifestyleMag.com >> >> > >

Because there are few better alternatives! My Best, Mike From: Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats There are many dynamics working when a boat is moored in a breeze. For example, It is very common to have a slight vacuum in the cockpit / stern area. This can cause CO fumes from a gas genset to enter below. I just don't understand why anyone would operate a portable gasoline genset on a boat. Why oh why, take that risk? Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 2/28/2013 10:14 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > > >Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards pose, but I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if the generator is being run on deck. Am I missing something? >On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com> wrote: > > >>Alex, >> >> >>I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's volatility. But more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can fill up a vessel. These are just risk I would not want to take. >> >> >>Terry >> >> >> >> >>On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >> >> >>> >>> >>>Rod, >>>I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be made safer. >>>I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. >>>Cheers, >>>Alex. >>>On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. >>>> >>>>Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset on board any boat. >>>> >>>>Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >>>>1979 O'DAY DS II >>>>former co-owner of "NODROG" >>>>1970 CAL 21 >>>> >>>>On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> writes: >>>> >>>>>Joe, >>>>> >>>>>I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. >>>>> >>>>>Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. >>>>> >>>>>A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. >>>>> >>>>>Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. >>>>> >>>>>I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a thing or two about them... >>>>> >>>>>Cheers, >>>>>Alex. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated on a boat. >>>>>> >>>>>>Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. >>>>>> >>>>>>Bottom line - >>>>>>A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. >>>>>> >>>>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>>>>>Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the details. >>>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>>Alex. >>>>>>>On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: >>>>>>>>> Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents >>>>>>>>to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things >>>>>>>>(coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence >>>>>>>>periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there >>>>>>>>was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had >>>>>>>>launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure powerboat). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop >>>>>>>>off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was >>>>>>>>headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing >>>>>>>>power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched >>>>>>>>along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and >>>>>>>>exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >>>>>>>>just fine once we were in the clear. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Chris Campbell >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>No virus found in this message. >>>>>>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >>>>>>>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >>>>>> >>>>>>-- >>>>>> >>>>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>____________________________________________________________ >>>>Woman is 53 But Looks 25 >>>>Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... >>>>ConsumerLifestyleMag.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > > >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184

Solar panels / inverter? On Feb 28, 2013, at 18:40, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Because there are few better alternatives! My Best, Mike *From:* Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:31 PM *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats There are many dynamics working when a boat is moored in a breeze. For example, It is very common to have a slight vacuum in the cockpit / stern area. This can cause CO fumes from a gas genset to enter below. I just don't understand why anyone would operate a portable gasoline genset on a boat. Why oh why, take that risk? *Joe DeMers - owner * Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * On 2/28/2013 10:14 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards pose, but I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if the generator is being run on deck. Am I missing something? On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com> wrote: Alex, I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's volatility. But more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can fill up a vessel. These are just risk I would not want to take. Terry On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: Rod, I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be made safer. I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. Cheers, Alex. On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset on board any boat. Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II former co-owner of "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> writes: Joe, I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a thing or two about them... Cheers, Alex. On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated on a boat. Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. Bottom line - A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. *Joe DeMers - owner * Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the details. Cheers, Alex. On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: > Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things (coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure powerboat). But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran just fine once we were in the clear. Chris Campbell > > No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 -- *Joe DeMers - owner * Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * *Woman is 53 But Looks 25* Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/512ff9f65b88979f67bc9st03duc> ConsumerLifestyleMag.com No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 -- *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184*

Hi Mike - the only safe and seaworthy alternative to a portable gas genset is a real marine gas or diesel genset, USCG approved, and correctly installed. *Joe DeMers - owner * Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 <tel:%28860%29%20666-2184> * On 2/28/2013 10:40 PM, mike farrell wrote: > > > Because there are few better alternatives! > My Best, Mike > > *From:* Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:31 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats > > > > There are many dynamics working when a boat is moored in a breeze. For > example, It is very common to have a slight vacuum in the cockpit / > stern area. This can cause CO fumes from a gas genset to enter below. > > I just don't understand why anyone would operate a portable gasoline > genset on a boat. Why oh why, take that risk? > *Joe DeMers - owner * > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * > > > > On 2/28/2013 10:14 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >> >> >> Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards >> pose, but I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if the >> generator is being run on deck. Am I missing something? >> On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com >> <mailto:ts… [at] harbornet.com>> wrote: >> >> Alex, >> >> I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have >> gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's >> volatility. But more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can >> fill up a vessel. These are just risk I would not want to take. >> >> Terry >> >> >> On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >> >>> >>> Rod, >>> I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an >>> expert, so everything I wrote is based on other people's >>> experiences. I would be very interested to hear why a well-built >>> portable generator would be a hazard above decks, aside from it >>> not having a marine rating, and how it can be made safer. >>> I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a >>> respected marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in >>> that field and I would welcome his advice as well. I am, >>> however, weary of statements like "a marine genset is cheaper >>> than a funeral" without supporting details, aside from the lack >>> of USCG and ABYC approval. >>> Cheers, >>> Alex. >>> On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" >>> <rj… [at] juno.com <mailto:rj… [at] juno.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are >>> MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the >>> marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or >>> stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how >>> casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using >>> them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE >>> LPG setup is relatively safe. There may be times when, >>> depending on conditions, using a portable generator on a >>> boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I still would >>> never recommend it. To risky for most applications. >>> Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an >>> above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't >>> care about the dangers of electric shock from that >>> non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put >>> in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even >>> stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators >>> would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot >>> more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. >>> I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very >>> uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset >>> on board any boat. >>> Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >>> 1979 O'DAY DS II >>> former co-owner of "NODROG" >>> 1970 CAL 21 >>> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze >>> <kr… [at] gmail.com <mailto:kr… [at] gmail.com>> writes: >>> >>> Joe, >>> >>> I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that >>> you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. >>> >>> Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that >>> applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people >>> still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential >>> threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run >>> or store them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd >>> also venture a guess that marine ratings for exhaust and >>> fuel storage would only apply for a below-decks >>> installation. My point is that with proper handling the >>> Hondas are no more dangerous than other gasoline or >>> propane devices on board. >>> >>> A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more >>> than a diesel main engine and would have the same >>> maintenance headaches. >>> >>> Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any >>> excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they would have >>> to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. >>> >>> I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of >>> electric conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. >>> I would think they know a thing or two about them... >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Alex. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers >>> <je… [at] mindspring.com <mailto:je… [at] mindspring.com>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post >>> below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas engines >>> are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply >>> with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. >>> Any boater [ and the boat's crew ] are put in grave >>> danger when this type genset is operated on a boat. >>> >>> Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the >>> insurance company discover that a non marine >>> gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. >>> >>> Bottom line - >>> A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. >>> *Joe DeMers - owner * >>> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >>> SoundMarineDiesel.com >>> <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >>> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>>> Could be a good candidate for an electric >>>> conversion. I've been seriously considering >>>> converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found >>>> the Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a >>>> chance to sail around the bay a few times and had >>>> the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking >>>> electric might have been a better option. I don't >>>> really use the engine much except to get in and out >>>> of the marina, electric would've been plenty for >>>> that, and I wouldn't have had to deal with all the >>>> nagging little things with the diesel. At the time >>>> I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, >>>> including a backup Honda generator. If anyone is >>>> interested, I could dig up the details. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Alex. >>>> On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" >>>> <cc… [at] lsnm.org <mailto:cc… [at] lsnm.org>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] >>>> (ASE) wrote: >>>> > Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the >>>> recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear is >>>> quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >>>> >>>> So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my >>>> Cal 20, generally consents >>>> to start and run, although despite rebuilding >>>> all manner of things >>>> (coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind >>>> me of its independence >>>> periodically by choosing its own RPM range and >>>> smoke output. Then there >>>> was the time the shift linkage broke, in >>>> reverse, moments after I had >>>> launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., >>>> this was a pure powerboat). >>>> >>>> But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the >>>> schooner berth to drop >>>> off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel >>>> just as the schooner was >>>> headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the >>>> outboard objected, losing >>>> power and belching vast quantities of blue >>>> smoke. The boat barely inched >>>> along. Most of the propulsive force was my >>>> exhortations and >>>> exclamations at full volume directed at the >>>> @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >>>> just fine once we were in the clear. >>>> >>>> Chris Campbell >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >>>> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - >>>> Release Date: 02/27/13 >>> >>> -- >>> *Joe DeMers - owner * >>> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >>> SoundMarineDiesel.com >>> <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >>> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ____________________________________________________________ >>> *Woman is 53 But Looks 25* >>> Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... >>> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/512ff9f65b88979f67bc9st03duc>ConsumerLifestyleMag.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > > -- > *Joe DeMers - owner * > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > -- *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184*

Joe, First of all, this whole conversation started when I suggested using a Honda generator as a range-extender for an electric propulsion system. As such, it would be used mostly underway, when there's ample air movement on deck. Secondly, wouldn't that same vacuum affect CO emissions from an outboard, an Atomic, or even a diesel? If there's so much concern about CO emissions getting down below, then perhaps a CO sensor would be prudent. As for why, as Mike mentioned, there really aren't any reasonable alternatives for the role of e-boat range extender. A proper diesel genset would cost too much and take too much space, haven't seen any gas gensets out there, maybe they would be more reasonable. On a big boat with a high demand for power it would be a good option, but for an occasional safety net, that's just too much. What I'd really like to know is what makes a genset "marine" (aside from water cooling, which really is a convenience/noise reduction feature, AFAIK). If it's just routing the exhaust outside the boat, that shouldn't be too hard to do. I've even seen some home-made attachments to the hondas that do that quite handily. Cheers, Alex. On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: > ** > > > ** There are many dynamics working when a boat is moored in a breeze. For > example, It is very common to have a slight vacuum in the cockpit / stern > area. This can cause CO fumes from a gas genset to enter below. > > I just don't understand why anyone would operate a portable gasoline > genset on a boat. Why oh why, take that risk? > > * Joe DeMers - owner * > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > * phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * > > > > On 2/28/2013 10:14 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > > > > Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards pose, but > I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if the generator is > being run on deck. Am I missing something? > On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com> wrote: > > > > Alex, > > I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have > gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's volatility. But > more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can fill up a vessel. These > are just risk I would not want to take. > > Terry > > > On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > > > > Rod, > > I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so > everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very > interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard > above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be > made safer. > > I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected > marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I > would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like > "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, > aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. > > Cheers, > Alex. > On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: > > > > Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, > a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an > improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is > shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them > or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is > relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a > portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I > still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. > > Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck > generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of > electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations > were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even > stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever > meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines > than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner > and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine > genset on board any boat. > > Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" > 1979 O'DAY DS II > former co-owner of "NODROG" > 1970 CAL 21 > > On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> > writes: > > > > Joe, > > I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be > painting a grimmer picture than it really is. > > Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and > outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a > potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store > them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that > marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a > below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas > are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. > > A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main > engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. > > Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a > claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in > any fire. > > I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric > conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a > thing or two about them... > > Cheers, > Alex. > > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com>wrote: > > > > A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY dangerous > idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply > with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and the > boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated on > a boat. > > Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover > that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. > > Bottom line - > A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. > > * Joe DeMers - owner * > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > * phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * > > > > On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > > Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously > considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 > with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few > times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might > have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get > in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I > wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the > diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including > a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the > details. > > Cheers, > Alex. > On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > > > > On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: > > Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, > although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. > > So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents > to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things > (coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence > periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there > was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had > launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure powerboat). > > But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop > off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was > headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing > power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched > along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and > exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran > just fine once we were in the clear. > > Chris Campbell > > > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > > > -- > > * Joe DeMers - owner * > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > * phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *Woman is 53 But Looks 25* > Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/512ff9f65b88979f67bc9st03duc> > ConsumerLifestyleMag.com > > > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > > > -- > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > >

I have both a outboard in a well and a honda 2000 generator in that same lazerette. Both produce CO. What makes the generators CO more lethal than the outboards? Caution must be observed with both. 'MARINE' stamped on the side doesn't persuade me of anything. On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > ** > > > Joe, > > First of all, this whole conversation started when I suggested using a > Honda generator as a range-extender for an electric propulsion system. As > such, it would be used mostly underway, when there's ample air movement on > deck. Secondly, wouldn't that same vacuum affect CO emissions from an > outboard, an Atomic, or even a diesel? If there's so much concern about CO > emissions getting down below, then perhaps a CO sensor would be prudent. > > As for why, as Mike mentioned, there really aren't any reasonable > alternatives for the role of e-boat range extender. A proper diesel genset > would cost too much and take too much space, haven't seen any gas gensets > out there, maybe they would be more reasonable. On a big boat with a high > demand for power it would be a good option, but for an occasional safety > net, that's just too much. > > What I'd really like to know is what makes a genset "marine" (aside from > water cooling, which really is a convenience/noise reduction feature, > AFAIK). If it's just routing the exhaust outside the boat, that shouldn't > be too hard to do. I've even seen some home-made attachments to the hondas > that do that quite handily. > > Cheers, > Alex. > > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com>wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> ** There are many dynamics working when a boat is moored in a breeze. >> For example, It is very common to have a slight vacuum in the cockpit / >> stern area. This can cause CO fumes from a gas genset to enter below. >> >> I just don't understand why anyone would operate a portable gasoline >> genset on a boat. Why oh why, take that risk? >> >> * Joe DeMers - owner * >> >> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >> >> * phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * >> >> >> >> On 2/28/2013 10:14 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >> >> >> >> Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards pose, >> but I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if the generator is >> being run on deck. Am I missing something? >> On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Alex, >> >> I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have >> gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's volatility. But >> more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can fill up a vessel. These >> are just risk I would not want to take. >> >> Terry >> >> >> On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >> >> >> >> Rod, >> >> I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so >> everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very >> interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard >> above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be >> made safer. >> >> I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected >> marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I >> would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like >> "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, >> aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. >> >> Cheers, >> Alex. >> On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE >> engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! >> Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and >> it is shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly >> using them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup >> is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using >> a portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I >> still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. >> >> Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck >> generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of >> electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations >> were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even >> stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever >> meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines >> than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner >> and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine >> genset on board any boat. >> >> Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >> 1979 O'DAY DS II >> former co-owner of "NODROG" >> 1970 CAL 21 >> >> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> >> writes: >> >> >> >> Joe, >> >> I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be >> painting a grimmer picture than it really is. >> >> Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and >> outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a >> potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store >> them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that >> marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a >> below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas >> are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. >> >> A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main >> engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. >> >> Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a >> claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in >> any fire. >> >> I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric >> conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a >> thing or two about them... >> >> Cheers, >> Alex. >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com>wrote: >> >> >> >> A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY >> dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not >> comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and >> the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated >> on a boat. >> >> Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover >> that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. >> >> Bottom line - >> A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. >> >> * Joe DeMers - owner * >> >> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >> >> * phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * >> >> >> >> On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >> >> Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously >> considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 >> with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few >> times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might >> have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get >> in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I >> wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the >> diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including >> a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the >> details. >> >> Cheers, >> Alex. >> On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: >> > Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, >> although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >> >> So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents >> to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things >> (coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence >> periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there >> was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had >> launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure >> powerboat). >> >> But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop >> off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was >> headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing >> power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched >> along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and >> exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >> just fine once we were in the clear. >> >> Chris Campbell >> > >> > >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >> >> >> -- >> >> * Joe DeMers - owner * >> >> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >> >> * phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> *Woman is 53 But Looks 25* >> Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... >> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/512ff9f65b88979f67bc9st03duc> >> ConsumerLifestyleMag.com >> >> >> >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >> >> >> -- >> >> *Joe DeMers - owner* >> >> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >> >> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* >> >> > >

If you ran a 500 Watt generator with the biggest battery charger into depleted batteries 2 hours a day that's around 1 KWatt-hr, not counting losses, inefficiencies. You use 3-6 hours as the number to calculate solar panel output for the day. I'll choose 4 since I don't live in the tropics, so that works out to around a 250 Watt solar panel for the same daily output which is 5.5' x 3.3' And you have to make sure it is not in shade. I like solar panels, I plan to get some, but you need a lot of space for them, and most people are buying 1000 W or 2000 W generators these days, so you could be looking at 2 to 4 times the area of the above solar panel to keep up. John From: AJ Jain <ak… [at] gmail.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:41 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats Solar panels / inverter? On Feb 28, 2013, at 18:40, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > >Because there are few better alternatives! > My Best, Mike > > >From: Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:31 PM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats > > > > >There are many dynamics working when a boat is moored in a breeze. For example, It is very common to have a slight vacuum in the cockpit / stern area. This can cause CO fumes from a gas genset to enter below. > >I just don't understand why anyone would operate a portable gasoline genset on a boat. Why oh why, take that risk? > >Joe DeMers - owner >Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >phone & fax (860) 666-2184 > > >On 2/28/2013 10:14 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > >> >> >>Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards pose, but I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if the generator is being run on deck. Am I missing something? >>On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com> wrote: >> >> >>>Alex, >>> >>> >>>I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's volatility. But more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can fill up a vessel. These are just risk I would not want to take. >>> >>> >>>Terry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Rod, >>>>I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be made safer. >>>>I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. >>>>Cheers, >>>>Alex. >>>>On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. >>>>> >>>>>Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset on board any boat. >>>>> >>>>>Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >>>>>1979 O'DAY DS II >>>>>former co-owner of "NODROG" >>>>>1970 CAL 21 >>>>> >>>>>On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> writes: >>>>> >>>>>>Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>>I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. >>>>>> >>>>>>Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. >>>>>> >>>>>>A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. >>>>>> >>>>>>Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. >>>>>> >>>>>>I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a thing or two about them... >>>>>> >>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>Alex. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated on a boat. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Bottom line - >>>>>>>A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>>>>>>Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the details. >>>>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>>>Alex. >>>>>>>>On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents >>>>>>>>>to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things >>>>>>>>>(coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence >>>>>>>>>periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there >>>>>>>>>was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had >>>>>>>>>launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure powerboat). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop >>>>>>>>>off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was >>>>>>>>>headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing >>>>>>>>>power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched >>>>>>>>>along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and >>>>>>>>>exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >>>>>>>>>just fine once we were in the clear. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Chris Campbell >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>No virus found in this message. >>>>>>>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >>>>>>>>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>____________________________________________________________ >>>>>Woman is 53 But Looks 25 >>>>>Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... >>>>>ConsumerLifestyleMag.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >>No virus found in this message. >>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > >-- > >Joe DeMers - owner >Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com >phone & fax (860) 666-2184 > > > > > >

Joe, I still think the solar panels and an inverter should provide enough power for the necessities. No one has mentioned the idea of a high-output alternator on the inboard engine, that with an invertor supplied by a bank of deep-cycle batteries should provide for the needed power loads, shouldn't it? The generator would only be needed for luxuries like microwaves, electric stoves and/or refridge, over-sized TVs/entertainment centers, and such (all the things we go sailing to get away from!) I was going to add an air-conditioner to the list, I still consider that a luxury..... but in southern climes I guess it would sure be nice? I guess that a hose could be hooked to the exhaust outlet of the portable generator to lead the fumes down to water level? The generator would still need to be well secured (even at anchor!) and positioned well aft to help dissipate the exhaust and heat and operating a genset in a marina slip would be a BIG NO-NO! I have an interesting picture that I captured off the BOAT/US web site that shows a typical flybridge cruiser running along with her ensign waving forward towards the aft side of the deckhouse, the good, old "station-wagon effect" at work! Airflow over and around boats is strange at times! Still, I'm VERY concerned about proper grounding to avoid shock hazards and so still agree that operating a portable genset on a boat is not recommended. Ironically, I am reminded of a advertisement that appeared about 40 years ago for a genset company (don't think it was Honda, but I'm going to look for the ad in my collection of old Yachtings) that of all things showed a small portable being used to power a floodlight in the cockpit of a CAL 20. Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II former co-owner of "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 22:54:34 -0500 Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> writes: Hi Mike - the only safe and seaworthy alternative to a portable gas genset is a real marine gas or diesel genset, USCG approved, and correctly installed. Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 2/28/2013 10:40 PM, mike farrell wrote: Because there are few better alternatives! My Best, Mike From: Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats There are many dynamics working when a boat is moored in a breeze. For example, It is very common to have a slight vacuum in the cockpit / stern area. This can cause CO fumes from a gas genset to enter below. I just don't understand why anyone would operate a portable gasoline genset on a boat. Why oh why, take that risk? Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 . Woman is 60 But Looks 25 Mom publishes simple facelift trick that angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/51303e9bed2013e9b3430st03duc

The next thing is someone is going to design a marinized portable genset with rust resistant fittings and either a wet exhaust or a smoke stack. Meanwhile, one of my worst experiences was motoring passed an series of anchored container ships and bulk carriers off Long Beach Harbor breakwater in 2004 at night while returning from the Marina del Rey to San Diego Race. The big ships all had their engines running, spewing fumes from their diesels burning bunker oil. Reminded me of visiting Los Angeles for a week back in the good old days of endless smog in the late sixties. I think Los Angeles harbor later instituted regulations against them burning bunker oil for this since that time, as it was a major contribution to smog in Long Beach and San Pedro. Back to the original discussion, I think the proposal was using the Honda as a temporary range extender for an electric propulsion system, or on board during a transoceanic race. Joe's concerns are valid in that one should take precautions when using such equipment, even if marinzed. I suspect CO poisoning could have been a factor in last years Ensenada Race disaster, as the boat had a substantially open transom and was motoring with a tailwind. It's a good argument for an onboard CO detector. Jerry From: Adam Thorp <th… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:15 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats I have both a outboard in a well and a honda 2000 generator in that same lazerette. Both produce CO. What makes the generators CO more lethal than the outboards? Caution must be observed with both. 'MARINE' stamped on the side doesn't persuade me of anything. On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > >Joe, > >First of all, this whole conversation started when I suggested using a Honda generator as a range-extender for an electric propulsion system. As such, it would be used mostly underway, when there's ample air movement on deck. Secondly, wouldn't that same vacuum affect CO emissions from an outboard, an Atomic, or even a diesel? If there's so much concern about CO emissions getting down below, then perhaps a CO sensor would be prudent. > > >As for why, as Mike mentioned, there really aren't any reasonable alternatives for the role of e-boat range extender. A proper diesel genset would cost too much and take too much space, haven't seen any gas gensets out there, maybe they would be more reasonable. On a big boat with a high demand for power it would be a good option, but for an occasional safety net, that's just too much. > > >What I'd really like to know is what makes a genset "marine" (aside from water cooling, which really is a convenience/noise reduction feature, AFAIK). If it's just routing the exhaust outside the boat, that shouldn't be too hard to do. I've even seen some home-made attachments to the hondas that do that quite handily. > > > >Cheers, >Alex. > > > >On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: > > >> >> There are many dynamics working when a boat is moored in a breeze. For example, It is very common to have a slight vacuum in the cockpit / stern area. This can cause CO fumes from a gas genset to enter below. >> >>I just don't understand why anyone would operate a portable gasoline genset on a boat. Why oh why, take that risk? >> >>Joe DeMers - owner >>Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >> >> >> >>On 2/28/2013 10:14 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards pose, but I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if the generator is being run on deck. Am I missing something? >>>On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Alex, >>>> >>>> >>>>I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's volatility. But more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can fill up a vessel. These are just risk I would not want to take. >>>> >>>> >>>>Terry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Rod, >>>>>I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be made safer. >>>>>I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. >>>>>Cheers, >>>>>Alex. >>>>>On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. >>>>>> >>>>>>Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset on board any boat. >>>>>> >>>>>>Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >>>>>>1979 O'DAY DS II >>>>>>former co-owner of "NODROG" >>>>>>1970 CAL 21 >>>>>> >>>>>>On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> writes: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Joe, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a thing or two about them... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>>Alex. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated on a boat. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Bottom line - >>>>>>>>A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>>>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>>>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>>>>>>>Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the details. >>>>>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>>>>Alex. >>>>>>>>>On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents >>>>>>>>>>to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things >>>>>>>>>>(coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence >>>>>>>>>>periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there >>>>>>>>>>was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had >>>>>>>>>>launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure powerboat). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop >>>>>>>>>>off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was >>>>>>>>>>headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing >>>>>>>>>>power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched >>>>>>>>>>along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and >>>>>>>>>>exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >>>>>>>>>>just fine once we were in the clear. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Chris Campbell >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>No virus found in this message. >>>>>>>>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>>>>>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>>>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>>>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>____________________________________________________________ >>>>>>Woman is 53 But Looks 25 >>>>>>Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... >>>>>>ConsumerLifestyleMag.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>No virus found in this message. >>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >> >>-- >> >>Joe DeMers - owner >>Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com >>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >

I routinely use a portable genset. Not the Honda but the Yamaha version. I have installed corner seats on the lower rail of the pushpit and the genset sits there when in use. I tie the gensets handle to the upper rail and have never had a problem. The AC output goes to the shore power input and the onboard charger juices up the batteries. Nothing could be simpler. Another benefit is fuel consumption of this little generator. It burns 2/3 gallon in 12 hours. I use it 2 hours per day. That's 6 days on a tank of fuel. So the reality is that you don't need to have your decks lined with jerry cans of gasoline to support the generator. A full tank and two additional gallons will get you damn near anywhere you want to go. This solution is simple, cheap, preferred by many cruisers, and proven over many sea miles. You could buy a dozen of these Yamahas for the price of an installed system. If your a cruiser and the non-marine genset only lasts 2 or 3 years just toss it (not overboard) and get a new one. You're still way ahead economically. I suppose carbon monoxide might be a concern. If I were concerned about I would get an indicator. I think, with my setup, on my boat, and with my usage pattern, this is not an issue. Anyway, that's my $.02 worth. Regards, Wayne On Mar 1, 2013, at 1:12 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > The next thing is someone is going to design a marinized portable genset with rust resistant fittings and either a wet exhaust or a smoke stack. Meanwhile, one of my worst experiences was motoring passed an series of anchored container ships and bulk carriers off Long Beach Harbor breakwater in 2004 at night while returning from the Marina del Rey to San Diego Race. The big ships all had their engines running, spewing fumes from their diesels burning bunker oil. Reminded me of visiting Los Angeles for a week back in the good old days of endless smog in the late sixties. I think Los Angeles harbor later instituted regulations against them burning bunker oil for this since that time, as it was a major contribution to smog in Long Beach and San Pedro. > > Back to the original discussion, I think the proposal was using the Honda as a temporary range extender for an electric propulsion system, or on board during a transoceanic race. Joe's concerns are valid in that one should take precautions when using such equipment, even if marinzed. I suspect CO poisoning could have been a factor in last years Ensenada Race disaster, as the boat had a substantially open transom and was motoring with a tailwind. It's a good argument for an onboard CO detector. > Jerry > > > From: Adam Thorp <th… [at] gmail.com> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:15 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats > > > I have both a outboard in a well and a honda 2000 generator in that same lazerette. Both produce CO. What makes the generators CO more lethal than the outboards? Caution must be observed with both. 'MARINE' stamped on the side doesn't persuade me of anything. > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > Joe, > > First of all, this whole conversation started when I suggested using a Honda generator as a range-extender for an electric propulsion system. As such, it would be used mostly underway, when there's ample air movement on deck. Secondly, wouldn't that same vacuum affect CO emissions from an outboard, an Atomic, or even a diesel? If there's so much concern about CO emissions getting down below, then perhaps a CO sensor would be prudent. > > As for why, as Mike mentioned, there really aren't any reasonable alternatives for the role of e-boat range extender. A proper diesel genset would cost too much and take too much space, haven't seen any gas gensets out there, maybe they would be more reasonable. On a big boat with a high demand for power it would be a good option, but for an occasional safety net, that's just too much. > > What I'd really like to know is what makes a genset "marine" (aside from water cooling, which really is a convenience/noise reduction feature, AFAIK). If it's just routing the exhaust outside the boat, that shouldn't be too hard to do. I've even seen some home-made attachments to the hondas that do that quite handily. > > Cheers, > Alex. > > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: > > There are many dynamics working when a boat is moored in a breeze. For example, It is very common to have a slight vacuum in the cockpit / stern area. This can cause CO fumes from a gas genset to enter below. > > I just don't understand why anyone would operate a portable gasoline genset on a boat. Why oh why, take that risk? > Joe DeMers - owner > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com > phone & fax (860) 666-2184 > > > > On 2/28/2013 10:14 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >> >> >> >> Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards pose, but I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if the generator is being run on deck. Am I missing something? >> On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com> wrote: >> >> Alex, >> >> I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's volatility. But more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can fill up a vessel. These are just risk I would not want to take. >> >> Terry >> >> >> On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Rod, >>> I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be made safer. >>> I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. >>> Cheers, >>> Alex. >>> On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: >>> >>> Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. >>> >>> Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset on board any boat. >>> >>> Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >>> 1979 O'DAY DS II >>> former co-owner of "NODROG" >>> 1970 CAL 21 >>> >>> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> writes: >>> >>> Joe, >>> >>> I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. >>> >>> Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. >>> >>> A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main engine and would have the same maintenance

On 2/28/2013 11:02 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > > > Joe, > > First of all, this whole conversation started when I suggested using a > Honda generator as a range-extender for an electric propulsion system. > As such, it would be used mostly underway, when there's ample air > movement on deck. ***** Hi Alex - The whole bottom line on this subject is here - ****** Operating a non USCG approved engine / genset on a boat is VERY risky and foolhardy whether underway or moored. Persons that do so are putting their boat and crew at great and unnecessary risk. Is it REALLY worth taking that chance with people's lives ? > Secondly, wouldn't that same vacuum affect CO emissions from an > outboard, an Atomic, or even a diesel? If there's so much concern > about CO emissions getting down below, then perhaps a CO sensor would > be prudent. > > As for why, as Mike mentioned, there really aren't any reasonable > alternatives for the role of e-boat range extender. ****** Now you know why diesel propulsion engines make the most sense for small boats, as opposed to electrical power. > A proper diesel genset would cost too much ******* That's the common excuse for using a portable gas genset on a boat. If you must have a generator, but cannot afford one, save your $ until you CAN afford one. > and take too much space, ****** We have installed 3.5KW marine diesel gensets on 30' sailboats, with excellent results. > haven't seen any gas gensets out there, maybe they would be more > reasonable. On a big boat with a high demand for power it would be a > good option, but for an occasional safety net, that's just too much. > > What I'd really like to know is what makes a genset "marine" ********All materials are designed for the corrosive marine environment. That is IMPORTANT ! so the unit does not just rot away and become unsafe to operate. Portable units are designed to operate on the level, not on the rolling deck of a boat. You risk dumping fuel from the carb while underway. The fuel system is designed for use on a boat. For example [ gas engines ] the carb overflow MUST BE directed back to the carb, not into the atmosphere. All electrical devices [ switches, the starter, the electrical end, etc ] are ignition protected, and approved by the USCG for marine use. Ditto for the flame arrestor [ your portable may not even have a proper flame arrestor , whose function is to prevent flames from the carb during a backfire! ] Ignition protection means the unit will not be able to ignite gas fumes. The fuel tank is properly vented overboard, and designed for marine use. A gravity fed fuel system [ as found on portable units ] on a boat is VERY dangerous ! You risk dumping the entire contents of the fuel tank onto the deck, or worse. The exhaust system is designed to marine standards. _Portable gas gensets cannot meet fuel or exhaust system standards. _ This is what makes them very dangerous on a boat ! > (aside from water cooling, which really is a convenience/noise > reduction feature, AFAIK). ******* Water cooling closely regulates the engine's operating temp, providing longer engine life and reduced emissions as compared to air cooled engines. > If it's just routing the exhaust outside the boat, that shouldn't be > too hard to do. > I've even seen some home-made attachments to the hondas that do that > quite handily. ******** Pure home grown "engineering". Joe DeMers > > Cheers, > Alex. > > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com > <mailto:je… [at] mindspring.com>> wrote: > > There are many dynamics working when a boat is moored in a breeze. > For example, It is very common to have a slight vacuum in the > cockpit / stern area. This can cause CO fumes from a gas genset to > enter below. > > I just don't understand why anyone would operate a portable > gasoline genset on a boat. Why oh why, take that risk? > > *Joe DeMers - owner * > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 <tel:%28860%29%20666-2184> * > > > > > On 2/28/2013 10:14 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >> >> >> Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards >> pose, but I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if >> the generator is being run on deck. Am I missing something? >> >> On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com >> <mailto:ts… [at] harbornet.com>> wrote: >> >> Alex, >> >> >> I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to >> have gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's >> volatility. But more than that. is the danger of CO gas that >> can fill up a vessel. These are just risk I would not want >> to take. >> >> Terry >> >> >> On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >> >>> >>> Rod, >>> >>> I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an >>> expert, so everything I wrote is based on other people's >>> experiences. I would be very interested to hear why a >>> well-built portable generator would be a hazard above decks, >>> aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be >>> made safer. >>> >>> I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of >>> a respected marine engine business, would be very >>> knowledgeable in that field and I would welcome his advice >>> as well. I am, however, weary of statements like "a marine >>> genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting >>> details, aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Alex. >>> >>> On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" >>> <rj… [at] juno.com <mailto:rj… [at] juno.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are >>> MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for >>> the marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed >>> (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is >>> shocking how casually many people treat them...... even >>> stupidly using them or stowing them below decks! >>> However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is relatively safe. >>> There may be times when, depending on conditions, using >>> a portable generator on a boat "might" not be >>> tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend >>> it. To risky for most applications. >>> Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from >>> an above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you >>> don't care about the dangers of electric shock from that >>> non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were >>> put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards >>> are even stricter and I doubt that those land use >>> portable generators would ever meet the marine >>> standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine >>> engines than I do and I value his advice. I am a >>> qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very >>> uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine >>> genset on board any boat. >>> Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >>> 1979 O'DAY DS II >>> former co-owner of "NODROG" >>> 1970 CAL 21 >>> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze >>> <kr… [at] gmail.com <mailto:kr… [at] gmail.com>> writes: >>> >>> Joe, >>> >>> I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me >>> that you might be painting a grimmer picture than it >>> really is. >>> >>> Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that >>> applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people >>> still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential >>> threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't >>> run or store them below decks the risk is minimized. >>> I'd also venture a guess that marine ratings for >>> exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a >>> below-decks installation. My point is that with >>> proper handling the Hondas are no more dangerous >>> than other gasoline or propane devices on board. >>> >>> A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost >>> more than a diesel main engine and would have the >>> same maintenance headaches. >>> >>> Don't know about insurance claims, they would use >>> any excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they >>> would have to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. >>> >>> I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots >>> of electric conversions there that use Hondas as a >>> backup. I would think they know a thing or two about >>> them... >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Alex. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers >>> <je… [at] mindspring.com >>> <mailto:je… [at] mindspring.com>> wrote: >>> >>> A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post >>> below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas >>> engines are not marine rated, and as such, do >>> not comply with USCG standards for fuel and >>> exhaust systems. Any boater [ and the boat's >>> crew ] are put in grave danger when this type >>> genset is operated on a boat. >>> >>> Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the >>> insurance company discover that a non marine >>> gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the >>> claim. >>> >>> Bottom line - >>> A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a >>> funeral. >>> >>> *Joe DeMers - owner * >>> >>> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >>> >>> SoundMarineDiesel.com >>> <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >>> >>> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>> <tel:%28860%29%20666-2184> * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>>> >>>> Could be a good candidate for an electric >>>> conversion. I've been seriously considering >>>> converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I >>>> found the Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that >>>> I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few >>>> times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, >>>> I'm thinking electric might have been a better >>>> option. I don't really use the engine much >>>> except to get in and out of the marina, >>>> electric would've been plenty for that, and I >>>> wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging >>>> little things with the diesel. At the time I >>>> estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, >>>> including a backup Honda generator. If anyone >>>> is interested, I could dig up the details. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Alex. >>>> >>>> On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" >>>> <cc… [at] lsnm.org >>>> <mailto:cc… [at] lsnm.org>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] >>>> (ASE) wrote: >>>> > Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the >>>> recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear >>>> is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a >>>> Mother. >>>> >>>> So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as >>>> my Cal 20, generally consents >>>> to start and run, although despite >>>> rebuilding all manner of things >>>> (coils, points, carburetor) it likes to >>>> remind me of its independence >>>> periodically by choosing its own RPM range >>>> and smoke output. Then there >>>> was the time the shift linkage broke, in >>>> reverse, moments after I had >>>> launched and before the mast was stepped >>>> (i.e., this was a pure powerboat). >>>> >>>> But the worst was the time I'd scooted into >>>> the schooner berth to drop >>>> off crew and was leaving via the narrow >>>> channel just as the schooner was >>>> headed in. I cranked up the throttle and >>>> the outboard objected, losing >>>> power and belching vast quantities of blue >>>> smoke. The boat barely inched >>>> along. Most of the propulsive force was my >>>> exhortations and >>>> exclamations at full volume directed at the >>>> @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >>>> just fine once we were in the clear. >>>> >>>> Chris Campbell >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/> >>>> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: >>>> 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Joe DeMers - owner * >>> >>> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >>> >>> SoundMarineDiesel.com >>> <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> >>> >>> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>> <tel:%28860%29%20666-2184> * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ____________________________________________________________ >>> >>> *Woman is 53 But Looks 25* >>> Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered >>> doctors... >>> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/512ff9f65b88979f67bc9st03duc>ConsumerLifestyleMag.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: >> 02/27/13 >> > > -- > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 <tel:%28860%29%20666-2184>* > > > > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6139 - Release Date: 02/28/13 > -- *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184*

We are talking about a 3300lb Santa Cruz 27 that raced to the Hawaiian Islands with NO ENGINE. In the 2012 Singlehanded Transpac many boats, mostly small ultralights, were unable to generate enough power with costly, complicated solar systems. Those who carried Honda EU1000i (28lb) generators were able to produce enough power to run autopilots, comm equipment, runninglights etc. I am not suggesting a small portable generator for the only system on a 12ton cruising boat. SSSTranspac boats without backup which relied on solar were in a lot more trouble and danger when they could not use their electronics and runninglights than the danger that a Honda EU1000i would put them in. As for USCG regulations and insurance company demands a prudent mariner must apply common sense when he she prepares for an ocean crossing in a very small boat. "Any fool can make a rule and every fool will mind it" David Thoreau said. There is no way that a "properly installed marine generator" would weigh less than 100lb and perhaps a lot more. In a race boat where we take measures to reduce weight the 72lb difference between the honda and a Onan is an impossible burden to carry. In 1988 we ran the generator on deck and stayed upwind from it. It ran a dedicated 12volt battery charger for about 15 minutes ever 2 days or so. I believe we did more damage to our bodies from the cigars we smoked after the finish of the race on Oahu than the damage the portable genset could have caused. Keep it Lite! My Best, Mike Farrell From: Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats Hi Mike - the only safe and seaworthy alternative to a portable gas genset is a real marine gas or diesel genset, USCG approved, and correctly installed. Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 2/28/2013 10:40 PM, mike farrell wrote: > > >Because there are few better alternatives! > My Best, Mike > > >From: Joe DeMers mailto:je… [at] mindspring.com >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:31 PM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats > > > > >There are many dynamics working when a boat is moored in a breeze. For example, It is very common to have a slight vacuum in the cockpit / stern area. This can cause CO fumes from a gas genset to enter below. > >I just don't understand why anyone would operate a portable gasoline genset on a boat. Why oh why, take that risk? > >Joe DeMers - owner >Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >phone & fax (860) 666-2184 > > >On 2/28/2013 10:14 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > >> >> >>Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards pose, but I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if the generator is being run on deck. Am I missing something? >>On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com> wrote: >> >> >>>Alex, >>> >>> >>>I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's volatility. But more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can fill up a vessel. These are just risk I would not want to take. >>> >>> >>>Terry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Rod, >>>>I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be made safer. >>>>I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. >>>>Cheers, >>>>Alex. >>>>On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. >>>>> >>>>>Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset on board any boat. >>>>> >>>>>Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >>>>>1979 O'DAY DS II >>>>>former co-owner of "NODROG" >>>>>1970 CAL 21 >>>>> >>>>>On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> writes: >>>>> >>>>>>Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>>I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. >>>>>> >>>>>>Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. >>>>>> >>>>>>A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. >>>>>> >>>>>>Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. >>>>>> >>>>>>I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a thing or two about them... >>>>>> >>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>Alex. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated on a boat. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Bottom line - >>>>>>>A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>>>>>>Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the details. >>>>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>>>Alex. >>>>>>>>On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents >>>>>>>>>to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things >>>>>>>>>(coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence >>>>>>>>>periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there >>>>>>>>>was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had >>>>>>>>>launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure powerboat). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop >>>>>>>>>off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was >>>>>>>>>headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing >>>>>>>>>power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched >>>>>>>>>along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and >>>>>>>>>exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >>>>>>>>>just fine once we were in the clear. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Chris Campbell >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>No virus found in this message. >>>>>>>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >>>>>>>>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>____________________________________________________________ >>>>>Woman is 53 But Looks 25 >>>>>Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... >>>>>ConsumerLifestyleMag.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >>No virus found in this message. >>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > >-- > >Joe DeMers - owner >Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >phone & fax (860) 666-2184 > > > > > > >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184

On 2/28/2013 10:29 PM, mike farrell wrote: > > > No Alex, > Joe has his his head up his as-. I sailed the 1988 > Pacific Cup with a 500 watt Yamaha generator which supplied needs for > VHF SSB GPS & running lites. Get real, Joe. Carbon Monxide. Al Gore > and global warming! Carbon monoxide is a genuine risk and it's responsible for lots of deaths because it's so sneaky. You don't see or smell it. It kills by combining with hemoglobin in the blood so the hemoglobin can't carry oxygen. Unlike plants, we need oxygen to survive. Last winter the power was out for 36 hours in my neighborhood. To keep my house warm-ish, I ran the gas stove burners. I thought I was being cautious, self-monitoring and not running the burners at night. I've read all the warnings about not heating your house with the gas stove and figured that because I was aware, I could do it safely. But on the second day I noticed substantial and unusual fatigue on my daily exercise route, and realized that I was affected by carbon monoxide without knowing it. It took a couple days to get back to normal. As with most dangerous activities, some people can do them safely, either because of special awareness and precautions, or from simple good luck. I've been on the "good luck" end of several dangerous activities, and let's face it, sailing is dangerous and we protect ourselves by awareness and precaution. The problem is that lots of people use boats and do not participate in lists like this one. Many aren't especially aware of things like CO. What they know about gas generators is that you pour the gasoline here, you pull the starter rope there, and bingo. That's a normal phenomenon in our complex world--we can't all be experts on all forms of technology. So rules are made to protect ordinary people, not the extraordinary ones who can engage in a dangerous activity safely. My theory is that if the CG and the ABYC and the insurance companies all think a specific activity presents special dangers, then we ought to pay attention and we ought to engage in that activity with special awareness. Most of all, we should not encourage general disregard of rules designed to protect the general population, even if we think that we can safely ignore them ourselves. Chris Campbell >

I take exception to the word "only" There are other systems, Solar , wind generators, hydrodynamic and more. Most boats which carry an outboard for dinghy or have a gasoline inboard or outboard for power have gas in some form of container on board so the issue of danger from gasoline is present and managed. My concern is weight, portability, output, convenience and practical use. A 3300lb ocean racer sailed singlehanded has different needs than a 74000lb Swan 65 with crew of 18 on board. The Swan had an approved diesel aux generator on board which had a electric starter and a dedicated genset starting battery system installed by the builder in Finland. Not light, not inexpensive, but approved. My Best, Mike Farrell From: Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats Hi Mike - the only safe and seaworthy alternative to a portable gas genset is a real marine gas or diesel genset, USCG approved, and correctly installed. Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 2/28/2013 10:40 PM, mike farrell wrote: > > >Because there are few better alternatives! > My Best, Mike > > >From: Joe DeMers mailto:je… [at] mindspring.com >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:31 PM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Honda gasoline gensets on boats > > > > >There are many dynamics working when a boat is moored in a breeze. For example, It is very common to have a slight vacuum in the cockpit / stern area. This can cause CO fumes from a gas genset to enter below. > >I just don't understand why anyone would operate a portable gasoline genset on a boat. Why oh why, take that risk? > >Joe DeMers - owner >Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >phone & fax (860) 666-2184 > > >On 2/28/2013 10:14 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: > >> >> >>Gas containers I can understand, it's the same problem outboards pose, but I don't quite see how the boat can fill up with CO if the generator is being run on deck. Am I missing something? >>On Feb 28, 2013 6:48 PM, "Terry Spencer" <ts… [at] harbornet.com> wrote: >> >> >>>Alex, >>> >>> >>>I have two thoughts about this. One is that I don't like to have gasoline stored in containers on a boat because of it's volatility. But more than that. is the danger of CO gas that can fill up a vessel. These are just risk I would not want to take. >>> >>> >>>Terry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Feb 28, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Rod, >>>>I stated at the very beginning of my post that I'm not an expert, so everything I wrote is based on other people's experiences. I would be very interested to hear why a well-built portable generator would be a hazard above decks, aside from it not having a marine rating, and how it can be made safer. >>>>I am also cognisant of the fact that Joe, being the owner of a respected marine engine business, would be very knowledgeable in that field and I would welcome his advice as well. I am, however, weary of statements like "a marine genset is cheaper than a funeral" without supporting details, aside from the lack of USCG and ABYC approval. >>>>Cheers, >>>>Alex. >>>>On Feb 28, 2013 4:44 PM, "Rodney G. Johnson" <rj… [at] juno.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Alex, the Atomic Four was a MARINE engine, Outboards are MARINE engines, a Honda Generator is not designed for the marine environment!! Yes, an improperly installed (or stowed) propane cylinder is dangerous and it is shocking how casually many people treat them...... even stupidly using them or stowing them below decks! However, a PROPER MARINE LPG setup is relatively safe. There may be times when, depending on conditions, using a portable generator on a boat "might" not be tremendously unsafe, but I still would never recommend it. To risky for most applications. >>>>> >>>>>Perhaps the dangers of Carbon Monoxide fumes coming from an above-deck generator don't concern you, and maybe you don't care about the dangers of electric shock from that non-standard generator setup. But USCG regulations were put in place for very important reasons, ABYC standards are even stricter and I doubt that those land use portable generators would ever meet the marine standards. Joe knows more a lot more about marine engines than I do and I value his advice. I am a qualified USCGAUX Vessel Examiner and would be very uncomfortable about the use of a typical non-marine genset on board any boat. >>>>> >>>>>Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >>>>>1979 O'DAY DS II >>>>>former co-owner of "NODROG" >>>>>1970 CAL 21 >>>>> >>>>>On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:00:02 -0800 Alex Kunadze <kr… [at] gmail.com> writes: >>>>> >>>>>>Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>>I'm no expert on the subject, but it occurs to me that you might be painting a grimmer picture than it really is. >>>>>> >>>>>>Granted, gasoline on board is dangerous, but that applies to Atomics and outboards as well, and people still use them. Propane tanks are also a potential threat. Hondas are not much different. If you don't run or store them below decks the risk is minimized. I'd also venture a guess that marine ratings for exhaust and fuel storage would only apply for a below-decks installation. My point is that with proper handling the Hondas are no more dangerous than other gasoline or propane devices on board. >>>>>> >>>>>>A diesel genset would be nice, but it would cost more than a diesel main engine and would have the same maintenance headaches. >>>>>> >>>>>>Don't know about insurance claims, they would use any excuse to not pay a claim, but I'd think they would have to prove the gennie was a factor in any fire. >>>>>> >>>>>>I'm on the electric boats yahoo group, there're lots of electric conversions there that use Hondas as a backup. I would think they know a thing or two about them... >>>>>> >>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>Alex. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>A "backup Honda generator" as noted in the post below, is a VERY dangerous idea. These gas engines are not marine rated, and as such, do not comply with USCG standards for fuel and exhaust systems. Any boater [ and the boat's crew ] are put in grave danger when this type genset is operated on a boat. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Also, Should the boat burn or explode, and the insurance company discover that a non marine gasoline genset was aboard, they will reject the claim. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Bottom line - >>>>>>>A proper marine genset is much cheaper than a funeral. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On 2/28/2013 10:44 AM, Alex Kunadze wrote: >>>>>>>Could be a good candidate for an electric conversion. I've been seriously considering converting an engineless Cal 2-27 before I found the Cal 29 with a good diesel. Now that I've had a chance to sail around the bay a few times and had the diesel die on me suddenly, I'm thinking electric might have been a better option. I don't really use the engine much except to get in and out of the marina, electric would've been plenty for that, and I wouldn't have had to deal with all the nagging little things with the diesel. At the time I estimated a DIY option would've cost 4-5K, including a backup Honda generator. If anyone is interested, I could dig up the details. >>>>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>>>Alex. >>>>>>>>On Feb 28, 2013 7:12 AM, "Chris Campbell" <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On 2/28/2013 9:36 AM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Chris, you'll have to ask Jerry about the recalcitrant outboard, although I do hear is quite a capable sailor. Necessity is a Mother. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>So is the outboard. Mine, the same age as my Cal 20, generally consents >>>>>>>>>to start and run, although despite rebuilding all manner of things >>>>>>>>>(coils, points, carburetor) it likes to remind me of its independence >>>>>>>>>periodically by choosing its own RPM range and smoke output. Then there >>>>>>>>>was the time the shift linkage broke, in reverse, moments after I had >>>>>>>>>launched and before the mast was stepped (i.e., this was a pure powerboat). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>But the worst was the time I'd scooted into the schooner berth to drop >>>>>>>>>off crew and was leaving via the narrow channel just as the schooner was >>>>>>>>>headed in. I cranked up the throttle and the outboard objected, losing >>>>>>>>>power and belching vast quantities of blue smoke. The boat barely inched >>>>>>>>>along. Most of the propulsive force was my exhortations and >>>>>>>>>exclamations at full volume directed at the @#%$&*!!! outboard. It ran >>>>>>>>>just fine once we were in the clear. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Chris Campbell >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>No virus found in this message. >>>>>>>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >>>>>>>>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>>>>>Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >>>>>>>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>____________________________________________________________ >>>>>Woman is 53 But Looks 25 >>>>>Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... >>>>>ConsumerLifestyleMag.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >>No virus found in this message. >>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > >-- > >Joe DeMers - owner >Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >phone & fax (860) 666-2184 > > > > > > >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184