Cal 20 sailing

Wow, Ol' Cal 20 #1220, Martha C, is back in action, and so is her skipper. Shortly after launching I had an unfortunate detour through the health care system and did not actually sail my boat until last night and tonight. I say "actually" because there was one brief efforts a couple weeks back that terminated when it became evident that the wind had gone to zero and wasn't inclined to improve. Last night and tonight I had wonderful warm summer evening sails with moderate breeze, just enough to move the boat along close to hull speed most of the time. So here's a message to all you sailors over the age of 40 or so. If you have any cardiac symptoms at all, *GET THEM CHECKED*. I've always been the healthiest person I know, and quite active physically, and fairly attentive to diet. But this past winter when cross-country skiing or snowshoeing uphill very hard, there was a faint sense of pressure behind my sternum. For all of us old enough to remember Jim Fixx, the famous runner and fitness guru who died of a massive heart attack, the concept of denial is not a good one. I made an appointment with my doctor and he sent me over for a stress test and within 6 days of the test I had three new stents in my coronary arteries. Wow. The catheterization and stent placement was completely painless, quickly accomplished, and easily recovered from. It really qualifies as a medical miracle. One of the physicians said that a few years back I would have been facing bypass surgery. And when a friend asked which artery was plugged, I named it (the LAD) and he said, "oh, the widow-maker." Oh, indeed. In my case, I was scheduled to be released the day after the procedure (they hold you to make sure the femoral artery, where they run the tubes and wires in, is sealed up again). As they were wheeling me to the entrance, a nurse asked how I felt, and I mentioned some minor chest discomfort. Ooops. Back to the floor, clothes off, gown on, and thence back to the procedure room where they ran the catheter in again and had another look-see. Never use the words "chest" and "discomfort" in the same sentence on the cardiac floors. Good news: the examination showed everything flowing as intended so I could stop worrying. But really, folks, if you have symptoms at all, or think you might, ask your doctor and have things checked out. Remember that phrase, "widow-maker." Don't assume that it can't happen to you, or that you eat lots of carrots and must be healthy, or any other mode of self-deceptive thinking. If you have any doubts about the catheterization procedure, e-mail me and I'll tell you again how painless and easy it is. Chris Campbell Sailing again in Traverse City, MI

On Jun 25, 2009, at 7:45 PM, Chris Campbell wrote: > > > Wow, Ol' Cal 20 #1220, Martha C, is back in action, and so is her > skipper. Shortly after launching I had an unfortunate detour > through the health care system and did not actually sail my boat > until last night and tonight. I say "actually" because there was one > brief efforts a couple weeks back that terminated when it became > evident that the wind had gone to zero and wasn't inclined to > improve. Last night and tonight I had wonderful warm summer evening > sails with moderate breeze, just enough to move the boat along close > to hull speed most of the time. > > So here's a message to all you sailors over the age of 40 or so. If > you have any cardiac symptoms at all, GET THEM CHECKED. I've always > been the healthiest person I know, and quite active physically, and > fairly attentive to diet. But this past winter when cross-country > skiing or snowshoeing uphill very hard, there was a faint sense of > pressure behind my sternum. For all of us old enough to remember > Jim Fixx, the famous runner and fitness guru who died of a massive > heart attack, the concept of denial is not a good one. I made an > appointment with my doctor and he sent me over for a stress test and > within 6 days of the test I had three new stents in my coronary > arteries. Wow. > > The catheterization and stent placement was completely painless, > quickly accomplished, and easily recovered from. It really > qualifies as a medical miracle. One of the physicians said that a > few years back I would have been facing bypass surgery. And when a > friend asked which artery was plugged, I named it (the LAD) and he > said, "oh, the widow-maker." Oh, indeed. > > Have a thought for Andreas Gruntzig who developed the method, then, with his wife, was killed in a private plane crash in 1985. He didn't have long to enjoy his fame. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Gruentzig Mike Kennedy Conquest Cal 40 # 96

Michael Kennedy wrote: > > > > > Have a thought for Andreas Gruntzig who developed the method, then, > with his wife, was killed in a private plane crash in 1985. He didn't > have long to enjoy his fame. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Gruentzig > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Gruentzig> > Thanks for sending that link. The phenomenon of innovation is always interesting. Some people have the gift of seeing completely new ways of dealing with problems. When they have the persistence to promote the new ways, progress follows. This is my first exposure to a true miracle, unless you count the ability of a sailboat to propel herself without an engine or oars. The elements of the miracle are: --patient is conscious throughout the procedure; --patient has no discomfort during the procedure or afterward; --patient is better after the procedure. It's about as close as waving a magic wand and getting a result. Compare that to bypass surgery; haven't we all known somebody who's had that? Thank you, Mr. Gruentzig and his disciples here in Traverse City. Chris Campbell > . > >

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Chris Campbell <clcampbell@...> wrote: > > Wow, Ol' Cal 20 #1220, Martha C, is back in action, and so is her > skipper. Shortly after launching I had an unfortunate detour through > the health care system and did not actually sail my boat until last > night and tonight. I say "actually" because there was one brief efforts Chris - so glad to hear you are OK, and that you caught things early. I think Marilyn and I must have been out the same evening - we got about half-way across East Bay from Old Mission toward Elk Rapids and then the wind went from about 2 MPH from N down to dead-calm. Always grateful for the ancient Atomic 4. Dave H - Cal 30 in TC - hoping never to use "chest" and "discomfort" in the same sentence.

On Friday 26 June 2009 09:00:05 Chris Campbell wrote: > It's about as close as waving a magic wand and getting a result. > Compare that to bypass surgery; haven't we all known somebody who's had > that? Thank you, Mr. Gruentzig and his disciples here in Traverse City. Good to hear all is well. Enjoy the day, enjoy your health and enjoy your boat. Good to hear that medical advances are evolving as too often you only hear of the negative side. Best regards -- /ch

--- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, chris h <chris123@...> wrote: > > Good to hear all is well. Enjoy the day, enjoy your health and enjoy your > boat. Good to hear that medical advances are evolving as too often you only > hear of the negative side. Isn't that the usual pattern in life? We all gripe about things that displease us but rarely take time to make note of good work, good ideas, kindnesses shown, etc. After I began to observe how gratifying it was to receive thanks and praise for things I had done well, I started doing it myself. It's really interesting. People are often very surprised when you take the time to praise or thank them. Try it some time--it's rewarding to the recipient, but also to the giver. Chris Campbell

Listmates: I thought my Wed. night sail was the last and was getting all nostalgic. Last night it was raining, as predicted. But this afternoon it's sunny, and I had to start work early so I can leave a bit early. There may be one more sail for this season. Last night while it was raining I stopped by the hardware store and ran into Kevin Sauvage, one-time listmate until he took time to set of across the Atlantic in his Cal 20. He ran out of time and turned back but has a new voyage planned with a better time window. He had nothing but praise for his little boat. One problem he encountered was condensation below when the water was cold and the air was moist. I have this problem in mid-summer when we have a hot, humid spell. The cold water on the hull makes it condense out moisture on the inside--quite a bit of water. Have others addressed condensation problems? I'm really reluctant to start gluing various plastic foams on the inside, having read the sad tales of owners who have to remove deteriorated foam products from hull and overhead areas. The only real solution seems to be insulation in some form. Maybe I'm better off just putting up with the occasional puddles and laying in a big stock of sponges to soak them up. Chris Campbell

Hi, Chris. Any way to improve the ventilation/airflow down below? Take Care Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Campbell Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 12:53 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] [Cal_Boats] Cal 20 sailing Listmates: I thought my Wed. night sail was the last and was getting all nostalgic. Last night it was raining, as predicted. But this afternoon it's sunny, and I had to start work early so I can leave a bit early. There may be one more sail for this season. Last night while it was raining I stopped by the hardware store and ran into Kevin Sauvage, one-time listmate until he took time to set of across the Atlantic in his Cal 20. He ran out of time and turned back but has a new voyage planned with a better time window. He had nothing but praise for his little boat. One problem he encountered was condensation below when the water was cold and the air was moist. I have this problem in mid-summer when we have a hot, humid spell. The cold water on the hull makes it condense out moisture on the inside--quite a bit of water. Have others addressed condensation problems? I'm really reluctant to start gluing various plastic foams on the inside, having read the sad tales of owners who have to remove deteriorated foam products from hull and overhead areas. The only real solution seems to be insulation in some form. Maybe I'm better off just putting up with the occasional puddles and laying in a big stock of sponges to soak them up. Chris Campbell ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links

I can relate to that. For your 20 there is a simple solution while underway. The more you maximize the air flow below the better. Secondly heat that air with a simple heating mechanism. There are many solutions to that latter issue from propane burners, to self build charcoal pipe ovens. Depends on how much you want to spend or like to build stuff. It will be a more complex issue and costly one if you are concerned with moisture while on the mooring. I would simple install a NicoVent for and aft and ensure good air flow when the hatches are sealed. This does not work while at sea however. As to your friends issue, the only solution is an insulated boat, good air movement and then again heat. You are fighting the dew point. For an Atlantic crossing of approx 21-30 in a cal 20 (oh my goodness) days depending on the time of year, he will have to plan for a number of days where he can encounter such conditions. Its also route dependent. Many are now running the southern route below 35 to the Azores as its far tamer skirting the bottom end of the Atlantic high and the trades. Very little chance of major storms in that region. Based on your description it sounds as if he is running early in the season and taking the northern route (oh my goodness) Water are ice cold and temps are warm. A non propane heat source will be required to keep the boat warm. One simple solution is to use a kerosene burner from St Paul Distributors and mount it to an old SeaSwing stove. Thats what Ive done. Gives off plenty of heat, less water then propane and doubles as a cooker. Find a suitable pressure cooker matched to the SeaSwing and cook your meals at the same time. Food stores for 3 days in a pressure cooker without refrigeration if you close it up tight. With respect to insulation, the best is a combination of spray foam and closed cell phone pads like you get from the camping store. Those gray matts are excellent for the sides and the top. The rest of the boat, lay out some battons 1/2 thick, select a suitable foam you can afford (there are many) and spray her up. Everywhere except the floor pan. The shave her back with a japanes saw to the level of the batton. Then cover with material of choice using brass screws to attach covering surface to the battons. Cedar works well if its treated with a sealant. All woods must be sealed so consider either a composite material or synthetic. Lots of work, but can be done. You can get more info here. Just search under insulation. http://www.morganscloud.com/ Best of luck. Sound like quite the lad. If you could hook me up with him would love to have a conversation with him. Have a project 20 in the barn still...:) /ch On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > Listmates: > > I thought my Wed. night sail was the last and was getting all > nostalgic. Last night it was raining, as predicted. But this afternoon > it's sunny, and I had to start work early so I can leave a bit early. > There may be one more sail for this season. > > Last night while it was raining I stopped by the hardware store and ran > into Kevin Sauvage, one-time listmate until he took time to set of > across the Atlantic in his Cal 20. He ran out of time and turned back > but has a new voyage planned with a better time window. He had nothing > but praise for his little boat. > > One problem he encountered was condensation below when the water was > cold and the air was moist. I have this problem in mid-summer when we > have a hot, humid spell. The cold water on the hull makes it condense > out moisture on the inside--quite a bit of water. > > Have others addressed condensation problems? I'm really reluctant to > start gluing various plastic foams on the inside, having read the sad > tales of owners who have to remove deteriorated foam products from hull > and overhead areas. The only real solution seems to be insulation in > some form. Maybe I'm better off just putting up with the occasional > puddles and laying in a big stock of sponges to soak them up. > > Chris Campbell > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > -- /ch

Roger Taylor prepared his boat for extended arctic voyaging and the Jester Challenge. While the site is primitive the competency of the man as a sailer is not in question. So he cant do web work.. His insulation method for a 24 foot Coribee British bilge keeler is described here. http://www.thesimplesailor.com/photographs.html (scroll through the page about half way down) He has published three books available from Amazon. The last being "Mingming and the Tonic of Wilderness" I just downloaded. I like it both for its destination, the Canadian Arctic where I spend some of my best years working as well as the practicality of design of the vessel and its implementation. Awarded the Jester Medal in 2009 he's a very interesting low profile seaman. All his material is well worth the read if for no other reason then its non north American Perspective on things. Brits are different and they have an different problem solving method that is interesting to consider. For example his sails are almost 10 years old and he prefers to patch them as needed rather then replace them. Interesting and strange to our ears. Reason...read the book...not going to spoil it for you..:) Best regards /ch

I'm going back through the AC and DC systems on my "new" 40 year old T/2. I've sorted the DC system and am now looking at the shorepower/AC. Right in line with an AC outlet is this box. It most definitely is a an ac/dc converter (AC in DC out) has a power switch and a power light and it says "Manzanita 6 AMP" . Now my question is this: Anyone know if this is actually a battery charger with shutoff, trickle, etc. or just a converter. Thought somebody might recognize it... Sorry for the bad pictures, it was raining through the companionway into the electrical area and I was in a hurry. Thanks, Rob

Picture attached this time From: Robert Libbert <rl… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 8:37 PM Subject: 10 points if you know the answer (electrical question) I'm going back through the AC and DC systems on my "new" 40 year old T/2. I've sorted the DC system and am now looking at the shorepower/AC. Right in line with an AC outlet is this box. It most definitely is a an ac/dc converter (AC in DC out) has a power switch and a power light and it says "Manzanita 6 AMP" . Now my question is this: Anyone know if this is actually a battery charger with shutoff, trickle, etc. or just a converter. Thought somebody might recognize it... Sorry for the bad pictures, it was raining through the companionway into the electrical area and I was in a hurry. Thanks, Rob

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=14&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64&vmcchk=1&Itemid=64 It doesn't look marine to me so I would get it off the boat. Allen On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Robert Libbert <rl… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > [Attachment(s) <#139c75e54ad868d4_TopText> from Robert Libbert included > below] > > Picture attached this time > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Robert Libbert <rl… [at] yahoo.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2012 8:37 PM > *Subject:* 10 points if you know the answer (electrical question) > > I'm going back through the AC and DC systems on my "new" 40 year old T/2. > I've sorted the DC system and am now looking at the shorepower/AC. Right > in line with an AC outlet is this box. It most definitely is a an ac/dc > converter (AC in DC out) has a power switch and a power light and it says > "Manzanita 6 AMP" . > > Now my question is this: Anyone know if this is actually a battery > charger with shutoff, trickle, etc. or just a converter. > > Thought somebody might recognize it... Sorry for the bad pictures, it was > raining through the companionway into the electrical area and I was in a > hurry. > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > >

Everything I learned I wrote down here http://l-36.com/humidity.php as I learned it. The bottom line is that a sealed box will go to 100% humidity. The best you can do is to get the humidity below the same as the humidity outside and you do that through ventilation - air flow. That is unless you want to seal things up and get a de-humidifier. Heating the air just makes things worse as hot air can hold more moisture. These low watt heaters are really designed to create convection current -- air flow -- and not to heat the air. Read the article. Allen On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > ** > > > Listmates: > > I thought my Wed. night sail was the last and was getting all > nostalgic. Last night it was raining, as predicted. But this afternoon > it's sunny, and I had to start work early so I can leave a bit early. > There may be one more sail for this season. > > Last night while it was raining I stopped by the hardware store and ran > into Kevin Sauvage, one-time listmate until he took time to set of > across the Atlantic in his Cal 20. He ran out of time and turned back > but has a new voyage planned with a better time window. He had nothing > but praise for his little boat. > > One problem he encountered was condensation below when the water was > cold and the air was moist. I have this problem in mid-summer when we > have a hot, humid spell. The cold water on the hull makes it condense > out moisture on the inside--quite a bit of water. > > Have others addressed condensation problems? I'm really reluctant to > start gluing various plastic foams on the inside, having read the sad > tales of owners who have to remove deteriorated foam products from hull > and overhead areas. The only real solution seems to be insulation in > some form. Maybe I'm better off just putting up with the occasional > puddles and laying in a big stock of sponges to soak them up. > > Chris Campbell > >

Sure looks expensive enough to have a boat insignia. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 8:52 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: 10 points if you know the answer (electrical question) picture attached this time http://www.manzanitamicro.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=14&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64&vmcchk=1&Itemid=64 It doesn't look marine to me so I would get it off the boat. Allen On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Robert Libbert <rl… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:rl… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Robert Libbert included below] Picture attached this time From: Robert Libbert <rl… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:rl… [at] yahoo.com>> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 8:37 PM Subject: 10 points if you know the answer (electrical question) I'm going back through the AC and DC systems on my "new" 40 year old T/2. I've sorted the DC system and am now looking at the shorepower/AC. Right in line with an AC outlet is this box. It most definitely is a an ac/dc converter (AC in DC out) has a power switch and a power light and it says "Manzanita 6 AMP" . Now my question is this: Anyone know if this is actually a battery charger with shutoff, trickle, etc. or just a converter. Thought somebody might recognize it... Sorry for the bad pictures, it was raining through the companionway into the electrical area and I was in a hurry. Thanks, Rob

Ok ....not to be argumentative but spend enough time on boats to know that airflow is key and if supplemented by a heat source...high end cruising boats (and commercial vessels) run a diesel heater (refleks heater for example from Denmark as its the dryest next to wood or charcoal) full time while operational in higher climates say above/north of NYC for discussion sake, the boat will dry out and keep the moisture content low. You do need insulation on the vessels skin however to assist in this process to reduce ambient air transition to the exterior and the reverse. From my learning its the dew point that you are fighting. The dew point being the temp at which water drops out of the air. Keep the boats skin and the ambient air above the dew point and you are dry. Not always possible. Best regards /ch On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > Everything I learned I wrote down here http://l-36.com/humidity.php as > I learned it. > > The bottom line is that a sealed box will go to 100% humidity. The best > you can do is to get the humidity below the same as the humidity outside > and you do that through ventilation - air flow. That is unless you want to > seal things up and get a de-humidifier. Heating the air just makes things > worse as hot air can hold more moisture. These low watt heaters are really > designed to create convection current -- air flow -- and not to heat the > air. > > Read the article. > > Allen > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org>wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> Listmates: >> >> I thought my Wed. night sail was the last and was getting all >> nostalgic. Last night it was raining, as predicted. But this afternoon >> it's sunny, and I had to start work early so I can leave a bit early. >> There may be one more sail for this season. >> >> Last night while it was raining I stopped by the hardware store and ran >> into Kevin Sauvage, one-time listmate until he took time to set of >> across the Atlantic in his Cal 20. He ran out of time and turned back >> but has a new voyage planned with a better time window. He had nothing >> but praise for his little boat. >> >> One problem he encountered was condensation below when the water was >> cold and the air was moist. I have this problem in mid-summer when we >> have a hot, humid spell. The cold water on the hull makes it condense >> out moisture on the inside--quite a bit of water. >> >> Have others addressed condensation problems? I'm really reluctant to >> start gluing various plastic foams on the inside, having read the sad >> tales of owners who have to remove deteriorated foam products from hull >> and overhead areas. The only real solution seems to be insulation in >> some form. Maybe I'm better off just putting up with the occasional >> puddles and laying in a big stock of sponges to soak them up. >> >> Chris Campbell >> > > > > -- /ch

I don't have power at my dock. I have put 3 Dri Z Air pots on my boat, one in the vberth, head and main cabin. I have a cowl vent in the main cabin and 2 near the transom. I leave bedding on the boat all winter with no problems. I have to add crystals every 1 to 3 months depending on how much rain here in Seattle. The only place I have mold problems is in the aft end of the boat. Apparently there isn't much flow from the main cabin to the lazerette. One of these winters I'll buy another Dri Z Air and put it somewhere at the aft end of the quarterberth. John http://www.fisheriessupply.com/sitesearch.aspx?dsAggNav=Ntk:All%7cDRI+CRYSTAL%7c2%7c,A:P_ProductID,N:4294927411&keyword=DRI+CRYSTAL From: chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 20 sailing Ok ....not to be argumentative but spend enough time on boats to know that airflow is key and if supplemented by a heat source...high end cruising boats (and commercial vessels) run a diesel heater (refleks heater for example from Denmark as its the dryest next to wood or charcoal) full time while operational in higher climates say above/north of NYC for discussion sake, the boat will dry out and keep the moisture content low. You do need insulation on the vessels skin however to assist in this process to reduce ambient air transition to the exterior and the reverse. From my learning its the dew point that you are fighting. The dew point being the temp at which water drops out of the air. Keep the boats skin and the ambient air above the dew point and you are dry. Not always possible. Best regards /ch On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > >Everything I learned I wrote down here http://l-36.com/humidity.php as I learned it. > > >The bottom line is that a sealed box will go to 100% humidity. The best you can do is to get the humidity below the same as the humidity outside and you do that through ventilation - air flow. That is unless you want to seal things up and get a de-humidifier. Heating the air just makes things worse as hot air can hold more moisture. These low watt heaters are really designed to create convection current -- air flow -- and not to heat the air. > > >Read the article. > > >Allen > > >On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > > >> >>Listmates: >> >>I thought my Wed. night sail was the last and was getting all >>nostalgic. Last night it was raining, as predicted. But this afternoon >>it's sunny, and I had to start work early so I can leave a bit early. >>There may be one more sail for this season. >> >>Last night while it was raining I stopped by the hardware store and ran >>into Kevin Sauvage, one-time listmate until he took time to set of >>across the Atlantic in his Cal 20. He ran out of time and turned back >>but has a new voyage planned with a better time window. He had nothing >>but praise for his little boat. >> >>One problem he encountered was condensation below when the water was >>cold and the air was moist. I have this problem in mid-summer when we >>have a hot, humid spell. The cold water on the hull makes it condense >>out moisture on the inside--quite a bit of water. >> >>Have others addressed condensation problems? I'm really reluctant to >>start gluing various plastic foams on the inside, having read the sad >>tales of owners who have to remove deteriorated foam products from hull >>and overhead areas. The only real solution seems to be insulation in >>some form. Maybe I'm better off just putting up with the occasional >>puddles and laying in a big stock of sponges to soak them up. >> >>Chris Campbell >> > > > -- /ch

On 9/15/2012 12:58 AM, chris123 wrote: > > > You do need insulation on the vessels skin however to assist in this > process to reduce ambient air transition to the exterior and the > reverse. From my learning its the dew point that you are fighting. The > dew point being the temp at which water drops out of the air. Keep the > boats skin and the ambient air above the dew point and you are dry. > Not always possible. This is exactly the problem in the Cal 20. My boat is well ventilated, but on very hot, humid summer days the humid air condenses out on the cold hull below waterline. More ventilation = more humid air = more condensation. The trick is to find a way to keep the warm air and cold hull separated. That's the job of insulation. In my own circumstances, it's probably wise to just live with the puddles for those few days each summer when it becomes a problem. Others may face a larger problem and want to insulate. Chris Campbell

The problem with insulation is that it needs to be "everywhere". Miss a spot and well it get really wet really fast especially in steel boats that Ive been researching. Someone suggested those drysacks they may help but I dont think so as your problem is not air born moisture. You could insulate from the waterline down with closed cell phone pads you buy from the camping store, (dollar store sells a poorer quality ones) and see what happens. But again, you need to insulate everywhere below the water line and few inches above it due to temp migration up the hull sides. Worth a try if it really bothers you then again, if it persists it can become a maintenance issue. /ch On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:04 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > > > On 9/15/2012 12:58 AM, chris123 wrote: > > You do need insulation on the vessels skin however to assist in this > process to reduce ambient air transition to the exterior and the reverse. > From my learning its the dew point that you are fighting. The dew point > being the temp at which water drops out of the air. Keep the boats skin and > the ambient air above the dew point and you are dry. Not always possible. > > > This is exactly the problem in the Cal 20. My boat is well ventilated, > but on very hot, humid summer days the humid air condenses out on the cold > hull below waterline. More ventilation = more humid air = more > condensation. The trick is to find a way to keep the warm air and cold > hull separated. That's the job of insulation. > > In my own circumstances, it's probably wise to just live with the puddles > for those few days each summer when it becomes a problem. Others may face > a larger problem and want to insulate. > > Chris Campbell > > > > > -- /ch

Read your stuff and sorry to hear about your dilemma. There are some simpler solution for when the vessel is a dockside. 1. Ozone generator....about once every four to six month rent a commercial ozone generator and put it to work for a day sealing up the boat nice and tight. Kills every little critter on the boat. Good ventilation is required prior to entering the boat so open the hatchboards and forward hatch cover and let her sit for a day. 2. In between treatments, old fashioned yellow Listerine in a bucket with water and a gallon of vinegar is the standard mold treatment in the Caribbean. Wash down the boat between ozone treatments (every six months or so) with this and it will stink for a day or two. After that, no more mold. If the boat is painted its far easier to deal with then a teaked out beauty that has been oiled. In that case a good coat of flat oil urethane if you can still find it will layer on a thin unpenitrateable skin on the teak preventing the spores from entering the wood cells and cavities. Mold spores are what you are trying to prevent in this case. Hope that helps some Best regards /ch On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > Everything I learned I wrote down here http://l-36.com/humidity.php as > I learned it. > > The bottom line is that a sealed box will go to 100% humidity. The best > you can do is to get the humidity below the same as the humidity outside > and you do that through ventilation - air flow. That is unless you want to > seal things up and get a de-humidifier. Heating the air just makes things > worse as hot air can hold more moisture. These low watt heaters are really > designed to create convection current -- air flow -- and not to heat the > air. > > Read the article. > > Allen > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org>wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> Listmates: >> >> I thought my Wed. night sail was the last and was getting all >> nostalgic. Last night it was raining, as predicted. But this afternoon >> it's sunny, and I had to start work early so I can leave a bit early. >> There may be one more sail for this season. >> >> Last night while it was raining I stopped by the hardware store and ran >> into Kevin Sauvage, one-time listmate until he took time to set of >> across the Atlantic in his Cal 20. He ran out of time and turned back >> but has a new voyage planned with a better time window. He had nothing >> but praise for his little boat. >> >> One problem he encountered was condensation below when the water was >> cold and the air was moist. I have this problem in mid-summer when we >> have a hot, humid spell. The cold water on the hull makes it condense >> out moisture on the inside--quite a bit of water. >> >> Have others addressed condensation problems? I'm really reluctant to >> start gluing various plastic foams on the inside, having read the sad >> tales of owners who have to remove deteriorated foam products from hull >> and overhead areas. The only real solution seems to be insulation in >> some form. Maybe I'm better off just putting up with the occasional >> puddles and laying in a big stock of sponges to soak them up. >> >> Chris Campbell >> > > > > -- /ch

On 9/14/2012 2:51 PM, chris123 wrote: > Roger Taylor prepared his boat for extended arctic voyaging and the > Jester Challenge. > Brits are different and they have an different problem solving > method that is interesting to consider. For example his sails are > almost 10 years old and he prefers to patch them as needed rather then > replace them. This is puzzling. Two seasons ago I bought a new jib for my other boat to replace one that was 50 years old. The old one didn't look too bad--the shape was generally acceptable--but something nagged at me. The new sail made a HUGE difference in the boat's handling. Previously, whenever it blew up a bit, the boat was over on her ear, and I was luffing her up, and the sailing was generally unpleasant. Now instead of trying to stand on her beam ends, she moves forward, as sailing vessels are supposed to do. Goodness knows what a new main would do. The old one doesn't look too bad; the shape is generally acceptable.... Kevin Sauvage said that when he set off in his Cal 20 he had a bunch of old sails and figured that it they failed, he'd just fling 'em overboard and bend on another. For his next attempt he'll have new sails. Until I experienced the effect of that new working jib, I was inclined to tolerate any sail that wasn't parting at the seams. Now I'm persuaded that sail shape matters. Chris Campbell P.S. I was sailing in that other boat on Sunday. The wind was picking up, it seemed, so I reefed before heading out. Reefed main and working jib (the new one). It was like sailing on a pond in the park. The boat, which is tender by reason of shoal draft, hardly noticed the wind, which never got much over 12 knots average/15 knots peak in any event. I almost unrolled the reef but then decided that sedate sailing was actually enjoyable.

If you insulate wouldn't that tend to trap water between the insulation and the hull? I just picture a bunch of black mold when you remove the insulation. I guess you would have to basically use sealant over the entire surface, something really beyond the "lets try" level as it would be so hard to remove. I tried using several dry sacks and just found the smell so strong that I never replaced them once they were gone. I know keeping the hull clean helps on my boat. The dirt and salt that gets on the hull seems to attract moisture more than a smooth clean hull. I would try keeping things open and find a way to get the wind to move air through the boat. Just leaving the hatches open 1 inch with a piece of wood made a huge difference on Papoose. Allen On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 6:06 AM, chris123 <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > ** > > > The problem with insulation is that it needs to be "everywhere". Miss a > spot and well it get really wet really fast especially in steel boats that > Ive been researching. Someone suggested those drysacks they may help but I > dont think so as your problem is not air born moisture. You could insulate > from the waterline down with closed cell phone pads you buy from the > camping store, (dollar store sells a poorer quality ones) and see what > happens. But again, you need to insulate everywhere below the water line > and few inches above it due to temp migration up the hull sides. Worth a > try if it really bothers you then again, if it persists it can become a > maintenance issue. > > > /ch > > > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 10:04 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org>wrote: > >> >> >> On 9/15/2012 12:58 AM, chris123 wrote: >> >> You do need insulation on the vessels skin however to assist in this >> process to reduce ambient air transition to the exterior and the reverse. >> From my learning its the dew point that you are fighting. The dew point >> being the temp at which water drops out of the air. Keep the boats skin and >> the ambient air above the dew point and you are dry. Not always possible. >> >> >> This is exactly the problem in the Cal 20. My boat is well ventilated, >> but on very hot, humid summer days the humid air condenses out on the cold >> hull below waterline. More ventilation = more humid air = more >> condensation. The trick is to find a way to keep the warm air and cold >> hull separated. That's the job of insulation. >> >> In my own circumstances, it's probably wise to just live with the puddles >> for those few days each summer when it becomes a problem. Others may face >> a larger problem and want to insulate. >> >> Chris Campbell >> >> >> >> > > > -- > /ch > > > >

Chris: It most certainly does. The difference is the rig. Taylor and others prefer a junk rig for tis low stress on the sail and ease of handling over other forms of sail rigs. On a bermuda, marconi, sloop what ever, sail condition is critical. Not so on a junk rig as the stress' are completely different in how they transfer the load to the boat resulting in forward motion. The mast is unstayed hence the decks have to be strongly reinforced and the mast must be securely fastened to the hull of the boat. Securely...:) Best regards /ch On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > Until I experienced the effect of that new working jib, I was inclined > to tolerate any sail that wasn't parting at the seams. Now I'm > persuaded that sail shape matters. > > Chris Campbell > > P.S. I was sailing in that other boat on Sunday. The wind was picking > up, it seemed, so I reefed before heading out. Reefed main and working > jib (the new one). It was like sailing on a pond in the park. The > boat, which is tender by reason of shoal draft, hardly noticed the wind, > which never got much over 12 knots average/15 knots peak in any event. > I almost unrolled the reef but then decided that sedate sailing was > actually enjoyable. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > -- /ch

On 9/18/2012 9:16 AM, chris123 wrote: > > > > 1. Ozone generator....about once every four to six month rent a > commercial ozone generator These work wonders on odors. > > > 2. In between treatments, old fashioned yellow Listerine in a bucket > with water and a gallon of vinegar is the standard mold treatment in > the Caribbean. I've been very pleased with vinegar to kill mold in my boats. Unlike bleach, it doesn't ruin your clothes or other things it touches. It's pretty benign stuff for us but does a good job on mold. My other boat's overhead is unfinished (but painted, poorly) back side of the fiberglass deck. I can scrub away with the vinegar without making a huge mess. Chris Campbell

Actually ozone generators are used extensively in homes that are invested with mold. The cheapest and most effective way to remediate a home that is infested with mold. Kills everything but you must use the commercial ones. The others yes....they only generate enough to kill odors...:) Give the old fashioned listerine (the gold one a try) with your white vinegar (which is just actetic acid at a low concentration) you might be surprised Chris...:) Best and kind regards /ch On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > > > On 9/18/2012 9:16 AM, chris123 wrote: > > > > > 1. Ozone generator....about once every four to six month rent a commercial > ozone generator > > > These work wonders on odors. > > > > 2. In between treatments, old fashioned yellow Listerine in a bucket with > water and a gallon of vinegar is the standard mold treatment in the > Caribbean. > > > I've been very pleased with vinegar to kill mold in my boats. Unlike > bleach, it doesn't ruin your clothes or other things it touches. It's > pretty benign stuff for us but does a good job on mold. My other boat's > overhead is unfinished (but painted, poorly) back side of the fiberglass > deck. I can scrub away with the vinegar without making a huge mess. > > Chris Campbell > > > > > -- /ch

On 9/18/2012 7:33 PM, chris123 wrote: > > > Actually ozone generators are used extensively in homes that are > invested with mold. The cheapest and most effective way to remediate a > home that is infested with mold. Kills everything but you must use the > commercial ones. The others yes....they only generate enough to kill > odors...:) An insurance company rented one for my house once after a minor fire--no damage, but the smell was awful. I ran the device for a couple days and the odor disappeared. I've got a small antique one that I use at home in closets and such for mildew and musty odor control occasionally. > > Give the old fashioned listerine (the gold one a try) with your white > vinegar (which is just actetic acid at a low concentration) you might > be surprised Chris...:) You mean the mouthwash? That sounds harmless enough to clothing and such. Chris

Yup....the gold one....combine it in a pail with white vinegar and water and wash down the boat. Stinks awful for a day...but does the trick. My buddy in the Rio Dulce put me on to it. Everyone does it down there as they are fighting humidity and mold on a weekly basis. Hence many paint out the teak, especially expats who live there permanently on their boats. Give it a try and see what happens. If unsure just use some diluted listerine in water. But it has to be the original one. Acts to kill spores I guess. /ch On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > > > On 9/18/2012 7:33 PM, chris123 wrote: > > Actually ozone generators are used extensively in homes that are invested > with mold. The cheapest and most effective way to remediate a home that is > infested with mold. Kills everything but you must use the commercial ones. > The others yes....they only generate enough to kill odors...:) > > > An insurance company rented one for my house once after a minor fire--no > damage, but the smell was awful. I ran the device for a couple days and > the odor disappeared. I've got a small antique one that I use at home in > closets and such for mildew and musty odor control occasionally. > > > Give the old fashioned listerine (the gold one a try) with your white > vinegar (which is just actetic acid at a low concentration) you might be > surprised Chris...:) > > > You mean the mouthwash? That sounds harmless enough to clothing and such. > > Chris > > > > > -- /ch

Cal folks: Went out sailing on Cal 20 #1220 last night in a good NW wind. As I was sailing off the mooring a larger boat was coming in and the skipper announced to his crew, "that's a cool little boat." I sailed across Grand Traverse Bay and encountered a fancy inflatable there. The guy made a course correction to swing past my boat and give a thumb's up sign. Have Cal 20s become famous lately? Or does everybody know what sweet boats they are? Chris Campbell

I know the feeling. I get people coming up to me every time I sail my Cal 2-27. I know I love it. From: Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 5:06 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal 20 sailing Cal folks: Went out sailing on Cal 20 #1220 last night in a good NW wind. As I was sailing off the mooring a larger boat was coming in and the skipper announced to his crew, "that's a cool little boat." I sailed across Grand Traverse Bay and encountered a fancy inflatable there. The guy made a course correction to swing past my boat and give a thumb's up sign. Have Cal 20s become famous lately? Or does everybody know what sweet boats they are? Chris Campbell