Rules Question

So last night the Tarten 10 we beat a few weeks ago had it in for us and took us up twice so far we had to tack and do a 360. Both times were after mark roundings and therefore we had slower boats coming in to round the mark which caused some excitement. My question is what is considered hunting? Also when he took us up the first time we were both on a port tack and he took us up into the layline/path of a stbd tacker and had we not tacked out and did a 360 we'd have been t-boned if they didn't alter course. He was able to fall back off and continue on his course. The second time we were on a stbd tack and he took us up into the path of a port tacker. Do we still have rights if we are "playing games" like that and the port tacker is a "victim" of his gamesmanship? This is the first time we've really been any real competition for him so we were not expecting this level of gamesmanship plus we had 2 rookie chicks on board so it was a little stressful due to the additional traffic coming down on us. Next week we'll be ready for him and I'll make sure I have more muscle on board. Paul West Dockside Mobile Marine Service & Fuel Polishing Inc. _www.DocksideMobileMarineService.com_ (http://www.docksidemobilemarineservice.com/) 443-614-4070

First, I have put together a rules page that covers the rules of when boats meet including the definitions. I am sure you will find it useful. You can print it on 5 pages. http://l-36.com/read_html.php?file=rules&text1=rules_intro&title=When%20Boats%20Meet&image1=crash&image2=Sit Or you can check out the entire rule book and wade through the 151 pages. http://l-36.com/read_pdf.php?file=/Race/RRS2009-2012-[5950]&title=The%20racing%20Rules%20of%20Sailing%202009-2012 But all you need is in my 5 pages, which are an exact copy of the text you need from the 151 page rule book. Specifically, at a mark rounding, if he was the inside boat he is required to make a tight rounding and cannot make a seaman like rounding. He cannot sail straight and keep you from rounding. What I do in a case like that is force the other boat very close to the mark on the approach then go wide just before the mark and come close coming out of the mark. At that point he has gone wide going out of the mark and we go between him and the mark, gaining an advantage. It is always fun to look at the expression on the crew of the other boat as they realize they just got skunked. But on your point, assuming he is inside and you are following him wide, he must go around sharply and cannot continue straight. If he overlaps you from within 2 boat lengths from a clear astern position, he must sail his proper course (not defined). He cannot head you up at that point. However, he is entitled to sail a proper course for his boat and if he out points you, he can be on a proper course where you are pinching. It is even more complicated downwind where he can wail off the DDW course where you would like to go DDW. So proper course is open to interpretation but within those limits, he cannot take you to China. Other than that, he can sail you to China if he wants. However, if he tries to sail you into the path of a starboard tack boat and you are on port, that starboard boat is an obstruction to you same as if it was a breakwater and you can ask for room from your T-10 friend. At that point he can either tell you to tack and keep clear of you ("you tack now"), or tack himself, or otherwise alter course to give you room. He cannot force you to do a 360 to avoid the other boat. You need to ask for room though as in yelling "ROOM" If you are on starboard, the port boat needs to avoid the two of you playing games. I might have some details wrong but if you read the few pages I linked it should clear it up. I like this book and am surprised the reviewer gave it one star. http://www.amazon.com/Elvstrom-Explains-Racing-Sailing-2009-2012/dp/0071626247/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1313681023&sr=8-4 It is really important to know the rules if you are going to do this kind of racing. We raced a T-10 on Tuesday and had some fun doing it. We met going into the first mark. He was on starboard and we were on port. We ducked him and got the inside position around the mark. Downwind we were neck and neck. He had inside approaching the second mark but there was a C&C-41 under spinnaker coming down on us totally out of control. The T-10 ducked us to get the hell out of the way. We all had a poor rounding as we did various things to avoid this 41 foot boat coming across the wrong side of the mark sideways. We overstayed the layline on the last beat but sailed faster and crossed the finish line about 5 boat lengths in front of him. He owes us 2 minutes but we beat him boat for boat. Not bad for a 55 year old wood boat. Love that Lapworth guy. Allen On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 5:48 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > ** > > > ** > So last night the Tarten 10 we beat a few weeks ago had it in for us and > took us up twice so far we had to tack and do a 360. Both times were after > mark roundings and therefore we had slower boats coming in to round the mark > which caused some excitement. > > My question is what is considered hunting? Also when he took us up the > first time we were both on a port tack and he took us up into the > layline/path of a stbd tacker and had we not tacked out and did a 360 we'd > have been t-boned if they didn't alter course. He was able to fall back off > and continue on his course. > > The second time we were on a stbd tack and he took us up into the path of a > port tacker. Do we still have rights if we are "playing games" like that > and the port tacker is a "victim" of his gamesmanship? > > This is the first time we've really been any real competition for him so we > were not expecting this level of gamesmanship plus we had 2 rookie chicks on > board so it was a little stressful due to the additional traffic coming down > on us. Next week we'll be ready for him and I'll make sure I have more > muscle on board. > > Paul West > Dockside Mobile Marine Service & Fuel Polishing Inc. > www.DocksideMobileMarineService.com<http://www.docksidemobilemarineservice.com/> > 443-614-4070 > > >

Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before rounding the mark. We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing the passing, correct? In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was passing me. He backed off as well. So was I right in one or both instances? Thanks - Paul 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear. Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule would not apply and they can luff you. You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They violated 18.3. Cheers, Allen On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > ** > > > Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line for > the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten 10 > did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point > higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I > really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing > higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind > after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to > luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard > to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before > our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't > flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before > rounding the mark. > > We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then > luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal > but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing > the passing, correct? > > > In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we > were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on > a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was > passing me. He backed off as well. > > So was I right in one or both instances? > > Thanks - > > Paul > > > *17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE* > If a boat *clear astern *becomes *overlapped *within two of her hull > lengths to *leeward *of a boat on the same *tack*, she shall not sail > above > her *proper course *while they remain on the same *tack *and *overlapped* > within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails > astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the *overlap* > begins while the *windward *boat is required by rule 13 to *keep clear*. > > *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as > possible in > the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A > boat > has no *proper course *before her starting signal. > > > >

Here's another VERY tricky one, I don't necessary agree with the facts as I don't remember them 100% clearly, altho I think I had a leeward overlap the whole time, but Vic's the race captain, and runs the races. At the same time I myself got overlapped and was sandwiched between two boats as we approached the mark. And I think Vic said 'no room' when we were still more than three boat lengths away, but what do I know, I got no laser range finder aboard. Now I gotta go study my voluminus copy of the racing rules, altho my copy is for the rules up to 2008, and everything has changed since then with regards to mark rounding, and changed again in 2013. BTW, AAAaarrghh%$#@!! Here are the emails: #1 (from race capt'n Vic) Much better wind tonight. Shpritz and Sundance broke a few rules tonight. In the interest of academics, "we want to teach, not punish", we will let them go. However after I explain what you did wrong, I will nail your little asses if you do it again. #2 Jerry, You established an inside overlap when we were quite a long way from the mark (ES2). as you sailed under me my sails blanketed you and you slowed down. about 200 feet from the mark, I sheeted in and headed up and broke the overlap and was clear ahead. I then fell off and headed for the mark. that slowed me down some but I was still clear ahead when I entered the zone. (66 feet). You then reestablished the overlap after I was in the zone. In these circumstances, the inside leward boat has no rights and must keep clear. I hailed you and told you "No Room" but you continued on and blocked me from rounding the mark and and allowed "Sundance" to round ahead of me. Read rule 18.2 and we can discuss it further. You can see why I said %$#@. I think we're going to need some in the water Judges with flags, inflatables, etc. In the future for this low key 'fun' series. Jerry From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 8:16 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before rounding the mark. We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing the passing, correct? In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was passing me. He backed off as well. So was I right in one or both instances? Thanks - Paul 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengthsto leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above herproper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped withinthat distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails asternof the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap beginswhile the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear. Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in theabsence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat hasno proper course before her starting signal.

18.2d is on your side. On Jul 11, 2013 9:37 AM, "Gerald Sobel" <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > Here's another VERY tricky one, > I don't necessary agree with the facts as I don't remember them 100% > clearly, altho I think I had a leeward overlap the whole time, but Vic's > the race captain, and runs the races. At the same time I myself got > overlapped and was sandwiched between two boats as we approached the mark. > And I think Vic said 'no room' when we were still more than three boat > lengths away, but what do I know, I got no laser range finder aboard. Now I > gotta go study my voluminus copy of the racing rules, altho my copy is for > the rules up to 2008, and everything has changed since then with regards to > mark rounding, and changed again in 2013. > BTW, AAAaarrghh%$#@!! > Here are the emails: > > #1 > (from race capt'n Vic) > Much better wind tonight. Shpritz and Sundance broke a few rules tonight. > In the interest of academics, "we want to teach, not punish", we will let > them go. However after I explain what you did wrong, I will nail your > little asses if you do it again. > #2 > Jerry, > You established an inside overlap when we were quite a long way from the > mark (ES2). as you sailed under me my sails blanketed you and you slowed > down. about 200 feet from the mark, I sheeted in and headed up and broke > the overlap and was clear ahead. I then fell off and headed for the mark. > that slowed me down some but I was still clear ahead when I entered the > zone. (66 feet). You then reestablished the overlap after I was in the > zone. In these circumstances, the inside leward boat has no rights and must > keep clear. I hailed you and told you "No Room" but you continued on and > blocked me from rounding the mark and and allowed "Sundance" to round ahead > of me. > Read rule 18.2 and we can discuss it further. > > You can see why I said %$#@. I think we're going to need some in the water > Judges with flags, inflatables, etc. In the future for this low key 'fun' > series. > Jerry > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 10, 2013 8:16 PM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Rules Question > > > Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line > for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten > 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point > higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I > really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing > higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind > after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to > luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard > to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before > our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't > flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before > rounding the mark. > > We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then > luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal > but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing > the passing, correct? > > > In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we > were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on > a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was > passing me. He backed off as well. > > So was I right in one or both instances? > > Thanks - > > Paul > > > *17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE* > If a boat *clear astern *becomes *overlapped *within two of her hull > lengths to *leeward *of a boat on the same *tack*, she shall not sail > above > her *proper course *while they remain on the same *tack *and *overlapped* > within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails > astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the *overlap* > begins while the *windward *boat is required by rule 13 to *keep clear*. > > *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as > possible in > the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A > boat > has no *proper course *before her starting signal. > > > > >