Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question

Specifically, at a mark rounding, if he was the inside boat he is required to make a tight rounding and cannot make a seaman like rounding. He cannot sail straight and keep you from rounding. He was ahead both times although the first time we were just about 6' off his stern about to do a port rounding and he swerved to stbd real quick which took us by suprise and then did his rounding. We had to come up to avoid him but then we got inside of him after the rounding and started to pass to windward and that is when he took us up into the path of a stbd tacker on the lay line. We had to do a 360 because we can't outpoint him and there was a stbd tacker bearing down on us. What I do in a case like that is force the other boat very close to the mark on the approach then go wide just before the mark and come close coming out of the mark. At that point he has gone wide going out of the mark and we go between him and the mark, gaining an advantage. It is always fun to look at the expression on the crew of the other boat as they realize they just got skunked. But on your point, assuming he is inside and you are following him wide, he must go around sharply and cannot continue straight. If he overlaps you from within 2 boat lengths from a clear astern position, he must sail his proper course (not defined). He cannot head you up at that point. However, he is entitled to sail a proper course for his boat and if he out points you, he can be on a proper course where you are pinching. It is even more complicated downwind where he can wail off the DDW course where you would like to go DDW. So proper course is open to interpretation but within those limits, he cannot take you to China. Other than that, he can sail you to China if he wants. However, if he tries to sail you into the path of a starboard tack boat and you are on port, that starboard boat is an obstruction to you same as if it was a breakwater and you can ask for room from your T-10 friend. At that point he can either tell you to tack and keep clear of you ("you tack now"), or tack himself, or otherwise alter course to give you room. He cannot force you to do a 360 to avoid the other boat. We were on the downwind leg and he brought us up close hauled and into the path of the stbd tacker. Had we just tacked I honestly don't know where our line would be in relation to the stbd tacker but we had to do a 360 to remain on course for the next mark and tt was going to be close enough that I thought we should do a 360 to avoid the boat. You need to ask for room though as in yelling "ROOM" I don't know that he'd have understood that request and likely would have argued with me. If you are on starboard, the port boat needs to avoid the two of you playing games. I might have some details wrong but if you read the few pages I linked it should clear it up. I like this book and am surprised the reviewer gave it one star. _http://www.amazon.com/Elvstrom-Explains-Racing-Sailing-2009-2012/dp/0071626 247/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1313681023&sr=8-4_ (http://www.amazon.com/Elvstrom-Explains-Racing-Sailing-2009-2012/dp/0071626247/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=131 3681023&sr=8-4) It is really important to know the rules if you are going to do this kind of racing. We raced a T-10 on Tuesday and had some fun doing it. We met going into the first mark. He was on starboard and we were on port. We ducked him and got the inside position around the mark. Downwind we were neck and neck. He had inside approaching the second mark but there was a C&C-41 under spinnaker coming down on us totally out of control. The T-10 ducked us to get the hell out of the way. We all had a poor rounding as we did various things to avoid this 41 foot boat coming across the wrong side of the mark sideways. We overstayed the layline on the last beat but sailed faster and crossed the finish line about 5 boat lengths in front of him. He owes us 2 minutes but we beat him boat for boat. Not bad for a 55 year old wood boat. Love that Lapworth guy. Yeah, me too. I can't believe the difference in performance with my freshly sanded bottom and a new sail. We were consistently in 4th-6th place and now are in the hunt for 1st everytime now and in 10kts or less! Not to shab-ass for a 30yr old 19,000lb boat! Paul

Paul, it was not clear to me whether these are windward of leeward marks you were rounding. When a mark is rounded the overlap rules are re-established if either boat changes tack, and on a free leg the lateral distance between the two boats matters, as does when an overlap was established or broken. Proper course really is ill-defined off the wind. Was it DDW or tacking downwind, or "sailing my polars" (I love the last one since you can lie about this one easily). If you are DDW, put your boom on the port side so you are starboard. This cuts off any assault by a boat above you. It has never been clear to me whether calling out things that are not true is a violation of the rules. Arcanely, Charlie Annapolis From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 12:20 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Specifically, at a mark rounding, if he was the inside boat he is required to make a tight rounding and cannot make a seaman like rounding. He cannot sail straight and keep you from rounding. He was ahead both times although the first time we were just about 6' off his stern about to do a port rounding and he swerved to stbd real quick which took us by suprise and then did his rounding. We had to come up to avoid him but then we got inside of him after the rounding and started to pass to windward and that is when he took us up into the path of a stbd tacker on the lay line. We had to do a 360 because we can't outpoint him and there was a stbd tacker bearing down on us. What I do in a case like that is force the other boat very close to the mark on the approach then go wide just before the mark and come close coming out of the mark. At that point he has gone wide going out of the mark and we go between him and the mark, gaining an advantage. It is always fun to look at the expression on the crew of the other boat as they realize they just got skunked. But on your point, assuming he is inside and you are following him wide, he must go around sharply and cannot continue straight. If he overlaps you from within 2 boat lengths from a clear astern position, he must sail his proper course (not defined). He cannot head you up at that point. However, he is entitled to sail a proper course for his boat and if he out points you, he can be on a proper course where you are pinching. It is even more complicated downwind where he can wail off the DDW course where you would like to go DDW. So proper course is open to interpretation but within those limits, he cannot take you to China. Other than that, he can sail you to China if he wants. However, if he tries to sail you into the path of a starboard tack boat and you are on port, that starboard boat is an obstruction to you same as if it was a breakwater and you can ask for room from your T-10 friend. At that point he can either tell you to tack and keep clear of you ("you tack now"), or tack himself, or otherwise alter course to give you room. He cannot force you to do a 360 to avoid the other boat. We were on the downwind leg and he brought us up close hauled and into the path of the stbd tacker. Had we just tacked I honestly don't know where our line would be in relation to the stbd tacker but we had to do a 360 to remain on course for the next mark and tt was going to be close enough that I thought we should do a 360 to avoid the boat. You need to ask for room though as in yelling "ROOM" I don't know that he'd have understood that request and likely would have argued with me. If you are on starboard, the port boat needs to avoid the two of you playing games. I might have some details wrong but if you read the few pages I linked it should clear it up. I like this book and am surprised the reviewer gave it one star. http://www.amazon.com/Elvstrom-Explains-Racing-Sailing-2009-2012/dp/0071626247/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1313681023&sr=8-4 It is really important to know the rules if you are going to do this kind of racing. We raced a T-10 on Tuesday and had some fun doing it. We met going into the first mark. He was on starboard and we were on port. We ducked him and got the inside position around the mark. Downwind we were neck and neck. He had inside approaching the second mark but there was a C&C-41 under spinnaker coming down on us totally out of control. The T-10 ducked us to get the hell out of the way. We all had a poor rounding as we did various things to avoid this 41 foot boat coming across the wrong side of the mark sideways. We overstayed the layline on the last beat but sailed faster and crossed the finish line about 5 boat lengths in front of him. He owes us 2 minutes but we beat him boat for boat. Not bad for a 55 year old wood boat. Love that Lapworth guy. Yeah, me too. I can't believe the difference in performance with my freshly sanded bottom and a new sail. We were consistently in 4th-6th place and now are in the hunt for 1st everytime now and in 10kts or less! Not to shab-ass for a 30yr old 19,000lb boat! Paul

Charlie - The first time we had just rounded the first mark to port on a beat and were headed downwind both on port tack, broad reaching. We rounded right behind him and were windward of him both on a port tack headed downwind and he pushed us up into the path of a starboard tacker. We had to do a 360 to avoid the boat and continue on to the next mark. Oddly enough he only gained a couple of boat lengths. The second time was also downwind. We rounded the mark again, just behind him but we had an override on our mainsheet winch and could not maneuver for a minute or two and looking back he was probably waiting to take us up until the port tacker was on us. We got the mainsheet loose just as he came at us and even though we were on a starboard tack it was best that we spin around and get away from him and avoid the port tacker. At that point I was unsure of the rules ie: if we are playing games on starboard tack and not holding any kind of course, is the port tacker obliged to avoid us. I opted to take the safe way out and spin out and away from them. If you are sailing dead down where is the boat that is considered to be above you? On the opposite side of the boom? If your boom is to port is the boat to stbd considered to be above you? Thanks - Paul West Dockside Mobile Marine Service & Fuel Polishing Inc. _www.DocksideMobileMarineService.com_ (http://www.docksidemobilemarineservice.com/) 443-614-4070 In a message dated 8/18/2011 7:31:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hu… [at] bah.com writes: Paul, it was not clear to me whether these are windward of leeward marks you were rounding. When a mark is rounded the overlap rules are re-established if either boat changes tack, and on a free leg the lateral distance between the two boats matters, as does when an overlap was established or broken. Proper course really is ill-defined off the wind. Was it DDW or tacking downwind, or “sailing my polars” (I love the last one since you can lie about this one easily). If you are DDW, put your boom on the port side so you are starboard. This cuts off any assault by a boat above you. It has never been clear to me whether calling out things that are not true is a violation of the rules. Arcanely, Charlie Annapolis From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 12:20 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Specifically, at a mark rounding, if he was the inside boat he is required to make a tight rounding and cannot make a seaman like rounding. He cannot sail straight and keep you from rounding. He was ahead both times although the first time we were just about 6' off his stern about to do a port rounding and he swerved to stbd real quick which took us by suprise and then did his rounding. We had to come up to avoid him but then we got inside of him after the rounding and started to pass to windward and that is when he took us up into the path of a stbd tacker on the lay line. We had to do a 360 because we can't outpoint him and there was a stbd tacker bearing down on us. What I do in a case like that is force the other boat very close to the mark on the approach then go wide just before the mark and come close coming out of the mark. At that point he has gone wide going out of the mark and we go between him and the mark, gaining an advantage. It is always fun to look at the expression on the crew of the other boat as they realize they just got skunked. But on your point, assuming he is inside and you are following him wide, he must go around sharply and cannot continue straight. If he overlaps you from within 2 boat lengths from a clear astern position, he must sail his proper course (not defined). He cannot head you up at that point. However, he is entitled to sail a proper course for his boat and if he out points you, he can be on a proper course where you are pinching. It is even more complicated downwind where he can wail off the DDW course where you would like to go DDW. So proper course is open to interpretation but within those limits, he cannot take you to China. Other than that, he can sail you to China if he wants. However, if he tries to sail you into the path of a starboard tack boat and you are on port, that starboard boat is an obstruction to you same as if it was a breakwater and you can ask for room from your T-10 friend. At that point he can either tell you to tack and keep clear of you ("you tack now"), or tack himself, or otherwise alter course to give you room. He cannot force you to do a 360 to avoid the other boat. We were on the downwind leg and he brought us up close hauled and into the path of the stbd tacker. Had we just tacked I honestly don't know where our line would be in relation to the stbd tacker but we had to do a 360 to remain on course for the next mark and tt was going to be close enough that I thought we should do a 360 to avoid the boat. You need to ask for room though as in yelling "ROOM" I don't know that he'd have understood that request and likely would have argued with me. If you are on starboard, the port boat needs to avoid the two of you playing games. I might have some details wrong but if you read the few pages I linked it should clear it up. I like this book and am surprised the reviewer gave it one star. _http://www.amazon.com/Elvstrom-Explains-Racing-Sailing-2009-2012/dp/0071626 247/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1313681023&sr=8-4_ (http://www.amazon.com/Elvstrom-Explains-Racing-Sailing-2009-2012/dp/0071626247/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=131 3681023&sr=8-4) It is really important to know the rules if you are going to do this kind of racing. We raced a T-10 on Tuesday and had some fun doing it. We met going into the first mark. He was on starboard and we were on port. We ducked him and got the inside position around the mark. Downwind we were neck and neck. He had inside approaching the second mark but there was a C&C-41 under spinnaker coming down on us totally out of control. The T-10 ducked us to get the hell out of the way. We all had a poor rounding as we did various things to avoid this 41 foot boat coming across the wrong side of the mark sideways. We overstayed the layline on the last beat but sailed faster and crossed the finish line about 5 boat lengths in front of him. He owes us 2 minutes but we beat him boat for boat. Not bad for a 55 year old wood boat. Love that Lapworth guy. Yeah, me too. I can't believe the difference in performance with my freshly sanded bottom and a new sail. We were consistently in 4th-6th place and now are in the hunt for 1st everytime now and in 10kts or less! Not to shab-ass for a 30yr old 19,000lb boat! Paul

I am not following all of this but can offer a couple of points. 1) If you try and pass a boat to windward that can out point you, you are screwed. 2) If you are on starboard tack and there is a port tack boat approaching it turns out the port tack boat is controlling you. You have rights so you must hold your course. The boat without rights can force you to hold your course. He can tell you to tack or hold your course. He controls the situation. Playing games that change your heading is not OK. Both of you engaged and on a steady course is OK. The point is, if you are on starboard, you are required to hold your course. 3) When you are both on port tack and there is a starboard tack boat that you need to avoid it is not clear from your description who was where and how the T-10 was going to avoid hitting the starboard tack boat. If he was ducking the boat, he needs to give you room to duck as well. If that involved heading up where you can't head up because he out points you, I think you have a problem. He cannot luff up to give you grief after the start, but he can out point you. He cannot force you to do a 360. 4) When you call for room you need to be forceful. ROOM. YOU MUST GIVE ME ROOM TO DUCK THAT BOAT. If nothing heard, I WILL PROTEST YOU IF YOU DO NOT FALL OFF (or whatever you want him to do). If he forces you to do a 360, raise your red flag and protest. You need to talk to the other boat. He should tell you "I am heading up to force you xxx." or whatever you are dong. Talk to the other boat. 5) How do you do a 360 without being in everyone's way and making things worse? Talk to the skipper after the race. Tell him how much fun it was and what a great job he did. Then ask him something so you know if he knows the rules. "Do you know I could have asked for room with that starboard boat?" If you want to see what happens when boats don't work these things out in a race see this page: http://l-36.com/even.php Allen On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 5:25 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > ** > Charlie - > > The first time we had just rounded the first mark to port on a beat and > were headed downwind both on port tack, broad reaching. We rounded right > behind him and were windward of him both on a port tack headed downwind and > he pushed us up into the path of a starboard tacker. We had to do a 360 to > avoid the boat and continue on to the next mark. Oddly enough he only > gained a couple of boat lengths. > > > The second time was also downwind. We rounded the mark again, just behind > him but we had an override on our mainsheet winch and could not maneuver for > a minute or two and looking back he was probably waiting to take us up until > the port tacker was on us. We got the mainsheet loose just as he came at us > and even though we were on a starboard tack it was best that we spin around > and get away from him and avoid the port tacker. At that point I was > unsure of the rules ie: if we are playing games on starboard tack and not > holding any kind of course, is the port tacker obliged to avoid us. I opted > to take the safe way out and spin out and away from them. > > If you are sailing dead down where is the boat that is considered to be > above you? On the opposite side of the boom? If your boom is to port is the > boat to stbd considered to be above you? > > Thanks - > > Paul West > Dockside Mobile Marine Service & Fuel Polishing Inc. > www.DocksideMobileMarineService.com<http://www.docksidemobilemarineservice.com/> > 443-614-4070 > > In a message dated 8/18/2011 7:31:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > hu… [at] bah.com writes: > > > > Paul, it was not clear to me whether these are windward of leeward marks > you were rounding. When a mark is rounded the overlap rules are > re-established if either boat changes tack, and on a free leg the lateral > distance between the two boats matters, as does when an overlap was > established or broken. Proper course really is ill-defined off the wind. > Was it DDW or tacking downwind, or “sailing my polars” (I love the last one > since you can lie about this one easily). If you are DDW, put your boom on > the port side so you are starboard. This cuts off any assault by a boat > above you.**** > > **** > > It has never been clear to me whether calling out things that are not true > is a violation of the rules.**** > > **** > > Arcanely,**** > > Charlie**** > > Annapolis**** > > **** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *pw… [at] aol.com > *Sent:* Thursday, August 18, 2011 12:20 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question**** > > **** > > > > > **** > > Specifically, at a mark rounding, if he was the inside boat he is required > to make a tight rounding and cannot make a seaman like rounding. He cannot > sail straight and keep you from rounding. **** > > **** > > *He was ahead both times although the first time we were just about 6' off > his stern about to do a port rounding and he swerved to stbd real quick > which took us by suprise and then did his rounding. We had to come up to > avoid him but then we got inside of him after the rounding and started to > pass to windward and that is when he took us up into the path of a stbd > tacker on the lay line. We had to do a 360 because we can't outpoint him > and there was a stbd tacker bearing down on us.***** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > What I do in a case like that is force the other boat very close to the > mark on the approach then go wide just before the mark and come close coming > out of the mark. At that point he has gone wide going out of the mark and > we go between him and the mark, gaining an advantage. It is always fun to > look at the expression on the crew of the other boat as they realize they > just got skunked. But on your point, assuming he is inside and you are > following him wide, he must go around sharply and cannot continue straight. > **** > > **** > > If he overlaps you from within 2 boat lengths from a clear astern position, > he must sail his proper course (not defined). He cannot head you up at that > point. However, he is entitled to sail a proper course for his boat and if > he out points you, he can be on a proper course where you are pinching. It > is even more complicated downwind where he can wail off the DDW course where > you would like to go DDW. So proper course is open to interpretation but > within those limits, he cannot take you to China.**** > > **** > > Other than that, he can sail you to China if he wants.**** > > **** > > However, if he tries to sail you into the path of a starboard tack boat and > you are on port, that starboard boat is an obstruction to you same as if it > was a breakwater and you can ask for room from your T-10 friend. At that > point he can either tell you to tack and keep clear of you ("you tack now"), > or tack himself, or otherwise alter course to give you room. He cannot > force you to do a 360 to avoid the other boat. **** > > *We were on the downwind leg and he brought us up close hauled and into > the path of the stbd tacker. Had we just tacked I honestly don't know where > our line would be in relation to the stbd tacker but we had to do a 360 to > remain on course for the next mark and tt was going to be close enough that > I thought we should do a 360 to avoid the boat.***** > > You need to ask for room though as in yelling "ROOM"**** > > *I don't know that he'd have understood that request and likely would > have argued with me.***** > > **** > > If you are on starboard, the port boat needs to avoid the two of you > playing games. **** > > **** > > I might have some details wrong but if you read the few pages I linked it > should clear it up.**** > > **** > > I like this book and am surprised the reviewer gave it one star.**** > > > http://www.amazon.com/Elvstrom-Explains-Racing-Sailing-2009-2012/dp/0071626247/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1313681023&sr=8-4 > **** > > **** > > It is really important to know the rules if you are going to do this kind > of racing.**** > > **** > > We raced a T-10 on Tuesday and had some fun doing it. We met going into > the first mark. He was on starboard and we were on port. We ducked him and > got the inside position around the mark. Downwind we were neck and neck. > He had inside approaching the second mark but there was a C&C-41 under > spinnaker coming down on us totally out of control. The T-10 ducked us to > get the hell out of the way. We all had a poor rounding as we did various > things to avoid this 41 foot boat coming across the wrong side of the mark > sideways. We overstayed the layline on the last beat but sailed faster and > crossed the finish line about 5 boat lengths in front of him. He owes us 2 > minutes but we beat him boat for boat. Not bad for a 55 year old wood boat. > **** > > **** > > Love that Lapworth guy.**** > > *Yeah, me too. I can't believe the difference in performance with my > freshly sanded bottom and a new sail. We were consistently in 4th-6th place > and now are in the hunt for 1st everytime now and in 10kts or less! Not to > shab-ass for a 30yr old 19,000lb boat!***** > > **** > > *Paul***** > > > > > **** > > **** > > > >

1) If you try and pass a boat to windward that can out point you, you are screwed. Yeah I know but this was our first encounter and I didn't expect him to come that hard that fast. I thought he'd take me up to slow me down but not and 80 deg hard turn into me. 2) If you are on starboard tack and there is a port tack boat approaching it turns out the port tack boat is controlling you. You have rights so you must hold your course. The boat without rights can force you to hold your course. He can tell you to tack or hold your course. He controls the situation. Playing games that change your heading is not OK. Both of you engaged and on a steady course is OK. The point is, if you are on starboard, you are required to hold your course. I could not hold my course as he was driving me up again. This wasn't as close as the first time when he drove me into the stbd tacker but had I kept letting him play games it would have been. 3) When you are both on port tack and there is a starboard tack boat that you need to avoid it is not clear from your description who was where and how the T-10 was going to avoid hitting the starboard tack boat. He fell off when he saw that we were tacking around and did not have to duck the stbd tacker. If he was ducking the boat, he needs to give you room to duck as well. If that involved heading up where you can't head up because he out points you, I think you have a problem. I knew he could out point us and if we just kept going up we'd have gone into irons & killed our speed so we'd have been screwed and been in the path of the stbd tacker. He cannot luff up to give you grief after the start, but he can out point you. He cannot force you to do a 360. You mean anytime after the start and we are windward of him he cant luff me up just because he can out point me? How does he know when to stop coming up? 4) When you call for room you need to be forceful. ROOM. YOU MUST GIVE ME ROOM TO DUCK THAT BOAT. If nothing heard, I WILL PROTEST YOU IF YOU DO NOT FALL OFF (or whatever you want him to do). If he forces you to do a 360, raise your red flag and protest. You need to talk to the other boat. He should tell you "I am heading up to force you xxx." or whatever you are dong. Talk to the other boat. Yeah you're right. Again I was so taken aback by this I must admit I was a little rattled. It was a real WTF moment. 5) How do you do a 360 without being in everyone's way and making things worse? We are much faster than all other boats so no one was directly behind us. I'll have to draw a picture to show you what happened. I know its hard to follow. Talk to the skipper after the race. He hits the road as soon he can. Never hangs out with the fleet. He is a nice guy off the boat but can be a real pompous ass on the water. Tell him how much fun it was and what a great job he did. Then ask him something so you know if he knows the rules. "Do you know I could have asked for room with that starboard boat?" Yeah, I need to talk to him for sure or it'll be real ugly next week. I had some choice language for him on the water.

Only point to add is that he can't head up to the point there he is luffing. He can't go above his close hauled course. He can go above yours which is why if he can out point you and you are to windward, you are screwed. On the starboard tacker. It sounds like you are talking about a boat that is coming at you from later in the fleet. He has to give you room if you ask for it. Since you didn't, he didn't have to. It is your responsibility to ask for room. If he thinks you don't need it, he must give it to you anyway and is then free to protest. But if you ask for room, he must give it. If he doesn't know the rules, leave a copy of the 6 pages I referenced on his boat. Buy you should also study them and probably buy that book from Amazon I referenced. There are others but I am unfamiliar with them. There are also some rule quizzes online. Allen On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 6:17 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > ** > > > ** > > > > > 1) If you try and pass a boat to windward that can out point you, you are > screwed. > > *Yeah I know but this was our first encounter and I didn't expect him to > come that hard that fast. I thought he'd take me up to slow me down but not > and 80 deg hard turn into me.* > > 2) If you are on starboard tack and there is a port tack boat approaching > it turns out the port tack boat is controlling you. You have rights so you > must hold your course. The boat without rights can force you to hold your > course. He can tell you to tack or hold your course. He controls the > situation. Playing games that change your heading is not OK. Both of you > engaged and on a steady course is OK. The point is, if you are on > starboard, you are required to hold your course. > > *I could not hold my course as he was driving me up again. This wasn't as > close as the first time when he drove me into the stbd tacker but had I kept > letting him play games it would have been.* > > 3) When you are both on port tack and there is a starboard tack boat that > you need to avoid it is not clear from your description who was where and > how the T-10 was going to avoid hitting the starboard tack boat. > > *He fell off when he saw that we were tacking around and did not have to > duck the stbd tacker.* > > > If he was ducking the boat, he needs to give you room to duck as well. If > that involved heading up where you can't head up because he out points you, > I think you have a problem. > > *I knew he could out point us and if we just kept going up we'd have gone > into irons & killed our speed so we'd have been screwed and been in the path > of the stbd tacker.* > > He cannot luff up to give you grief after the start, but he can out point > you. > He cannot force you to do a 360. > > > *You mean anytime after the start and we are windward of him he cant luff > me up just because he can out point me? How does he know when to stop > coming up?* > > > > 4) When you call for room you need to be forceful. ROOM. YOU MUST GIVE ME > ROOM TO DUCK THAT BOAT. If nothing heard, I WILL PROTEST YOU IF YOU DO NOT > FALL OFF (or whatever you want him to do). If he forces you to do a 360, > raise your red flag and protest. You need to talk to the other boat. He > should tell you "I am heading up to force you xxx." or whatever you are > dong. Talk to the other boat. > > *Yeah you're right. Again I was so taken aback by this I must admit I was > a little rattled. It was a real WTF moment.* > > > 5) How do you do a 360 without being in everyone's way and making things > worse? > > *We are much faster than all other boats so no one was directly behind > us. I'll have to draw a picture to show you what happened. I know its hard > to follow.* > > * > * > Talk to the skipper after the race. > > *He hits the road as soon he can. Never hangs out with the fleet. He is > a nice guy off the boat but can be a real pompous ass on the water.* > > Tell him how much fun it was and what a great job he did. Then ask him > something so you know if he knows the rules. "Do you know I could have > asked for room with that starboard boat?" > > *Yeah, I need to talk to him for sure or it'll be real ugly next week. I > had some choice language for him on the water.* > > > >

I read somewhere, a long time ago, about overtaking a boat and attempting to passing to weather of them downwind or on a reach. The author's suggestion was that if you could be in control and make smoother transitions as you head up or down, you can pass the other boat. Especially as they get rattled as you approach. This necessitates having your jib and main trimmers ready to keep your power in your sails as you head up or down. I have tried this and found it can work rather well. I head for their transom and then smoothly head up just a bit. They often get excited and make abrupt course changes. Even if someone takes you up nearly head to wind, they usually shoot themselves in the foot, particularly if you and your crew can maintain better momentum. I am struck by how foolish this is in a fleet where you both lose time against the rest of the boats due to taking a boat up or being taken up. Sounds like your opponent was trying to get you rattled from ahead. I am betting you will be ready for him next time. Terry On Aug 18, 2011, at 6:17 PM, pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > > 1) If you try and pass a boat to windward that can out point you, you are screwed. > Yeah I know but this was our first encounter and I didn't expect him to come that hard that fast. I thought he'd take me up to slow me down but not and 80 deg hard turn into me. > 2) If you are on starboard tack and there is a port tack boat approaching it turns out the port tack boat is controlling you. You have rights so you must hold your course. The boat without rights can force you to hold your course. He can tell you to tack or hold your course. He controls the situation. Playing games that change your heading is not OK. Both of you engaged and on a steady course is OK. The point is, if you are on starboard, you are required to hold your course. > I could not hold my course as he was driving me up again. This wasn't as close as the first time when he drove me into the stbd tacker but had I kept letting him play games it would have been. > 3) When you are both on port tack and there is a starboard tack boat that you need to avoid it is not clear from your description who was where and how the T-10 was going to avoid hitting the starboard tack boat. > He fell off when he saw that we were tacking around and did not have to duck the stbd tacker. > > If he was ducking the boat, he needs to give you room to duck as well. If that involved heading up where you can't head up because he out points you, I think you have a problem. > I knew he could out point us and if we just kept going up we'd have gone into irons & killed our speed so we'd have been screwed and been in the path of the stbd tacker. > He cannot luff up to give you grief after the start, but he can out point you. > He cannot force you to do a 360. > > You mean anytime after the start and we are windward of him he cant luff me up just because he can out point me? How does he know when to stop coming up? > > > 4) When you call for room you need to be forceful. ROOM. YOU MUST GIVE ME ROOM TO DUCK THAT BOAT. If nothing heard, I WILL PROTEST YOU IF YOU DO NOT FALL OFF (or whatever you want him to do). If he forces you to do a 360, raise your red flag and protest. You need to talk to the other boat. He should tell you "I am heading up to force you xxx." or whatever you are dong. Talk to the other boat. > Yeah you're right. Again I was so taken aback by this I must admit I was a little rattled. It was a real WTF moment. > > > 5) How do you do a 360 without being in everyone's way and making things worse? > > We are much faster than all other boats so no one was directly behind us. I'll have to draw a picture to show you what happened. I know its hard to follow. > > Talk to the skipper after the race. > He hits the road as soon he can. Never hangs out with the fleet. He is a nice guy off the boat but can be a real pompous ass on the water. > Tell him how much fun it was and what a great job he did. Then ask him something so you know if he knows the rules. "Do you know I could have asked for room with that starboard boat?" > Yeah, I need to talk to him for sure or it'll be real ugly next week. I had some choice language for him on the water. > > >

I'm not an expert on the rules, so I'll welcome feedback and we can all learn. My understandings are below: 1) If you try and pass a boat to windward that can out point you, you are screwed. Yeah I know but this was our first encounter and I didn't expect him to come that hard that fast. I thought he'd take me up to slow me down but not and 80 deg hard turn into me. 2) If you are on starboard tack and there is a port tack boat approaching it turns out the port tack boat is controlling you. You have rights so you must hold your course. The boat without rights can force you to hold your course. He can tell you to tack or hold your course. He controls the situation. Playing games that change your heading is not OK. Both of you engaged and on a steady course is OK. The point is, if you are on starboard, you are required to hold your course. I could not hold my course as he was driving me up again. This wasn't as close as the first time when he drove me into the stbd tacker but had I kept letting him play games it would have been. The rule only applies if the port tack boat is keeping clear by sailing to pass astern of you. Your responsibility is not to change course if as a result the port tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear. This is unlikely to result from changing course to windward, as in taking you up. 3) When you are both on port tack and there is a starboard tack boat that you need to avoid it is not clear from your description who was where and how the T-10 was going to avoid hitting the starboard tack boat. He fell off when he saw that we were tacking around and did not have to duck the stbd tacker. He can decide whether he wants to tack or duck when there's a boat coming that you both must keep clear of, but if he chooses to duck he must give you room to duck also. If he chooses to tack he has to hail you for room. Communication is key, as Allen pointed out. You have to tell him there's a boat coming and ask him what he wants to do, and if he's going to duck him he has to give you room to duck also. If he was ducking the boat, he needs to give you room to duck as well. If that involved heading up where you can't head up because he out points you, I think you have a problem. I knew he could out point us and if we just kept going up we'd have gone into irons & killed our speed so we'd have been screwed and been in the path of the stbd tacker. He cannot luff up to give you grief after the start, but he can out point you. He cannot force you to do a 360. You mean anytime after the start and we are windward of him he cant luff me up just because he can out point me? How does he know when to stop coming up? Unless something has changed, he can luff you up unless he came from clear astern, in which case he can't sail above his proper course. This is an often misunderstood limitation. To be limited the boat clear astern must be within two boat lengths to leeward when the overlap is established, and his proper course may not be your proper course. However, sailing above close hauled is obviously not proper course (see definition of proper course) 4) When you call for room you need to be forceful. ROOM. YOU MUST GIVE ME ROOM TO DUCK THAT BOAT. If nothing heard, I WILL PROTEST YOU IF YOU DO NOT FALL OFF (or whatever you want him to do). If he forces you to do a 360, raise your red flag and protest. You need to talk to the other boat. He should tell you "I am heading up to force you xxx." or whatever you are dong. Talk to the other boat. Yeah you're right. Again I was so taken aback by this I must admit I was a little rattled. It was a real WTF moment. Also, note that he has to give you room to keep clear. 5) How do you do a 360 without being in everyone's way and making things worse? We are much faster than all other boats so no one was directly behind us. I'll have to draw a picture to show you what happened. I know its hard to follow. Talk to the skipper after the race. He hits the road as soon he can. Never hangs out with the fleet. He is a nice guy off the boat but can be a real pompous ass on the water. I think I've crewed for him! Tell him how much fun it was and what a great job he did. Then ask him something so you know if he knows the rules. "Do you know I could have asked for room with that starboard boat?" Yeah, I need to talk to him for sure or it'll be real ugly next week. I had some choice language for him on the water.

Paul, it was not clear to me whether these are windward of leeward marks you were rounding. When a mark is rounded the overlap rules are re-established if either boat changes tack, and on a free leg the lateral distance between the two boats matters, as does when an overlap was established or broken. Proper course really is ill-defined off the wind. Was it DDW or tacking downwind, or "sailing my polars" (I love the last one since you can lie about this one easily). If you are DDW, put your boom on the port side so you are starboard. This cuts off any assault by a boat above you. It has never been clear to me whether calling out things that are not true is a violation of the rules. Charlie, I've read that you can and will be DSQed for violating the fundamental principal of sportsmanship if you intentionally call out things that are not true or are intended to confuse the other skipper. I think there are several appeals on this. By the way, anyone who hasn't read appeals, which are available from US Sailing on their web site, should. There are some interesting clarifications of rules (and some of us think it's fun.) Arcanely, Charlie Annapolis From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 12:20 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Specifically, at a mark rounding, if he was the inside boat he is required to make a tight rounding and cannot make a seaman like rounding. He cannot sail straight and keep you from rounding. He was ahead both times although the first time we were just about 6' off his stern about to do a port rounding and he swerved to stbd real quick which took us by suprise and then did his rounding. We had to come up to avoid him but then we got inside of him after the rounding and started to pass to windward and that is when he took us up into the path of a stbd tacker on the lay line. We had to do a 360 because we can't outpoint him and there was a stbd tacker bearing down on us. What I do in a case like that is force the other boat very close to the mark on the approach then go wide just before the mark and come close coming out of the mark. At that point he has gone wide going out of the mark and we go between him and the mark, gaining an advantage. It is always fun to look at the expression on the crew of the other boat as they realize they just got skunked. But on your point, assuming he is inside and you are following him wide, he must go around sharply and cannot continue straight. If he overlaps you from within 2 boat lengths from a clear astern position, he must sail his proper course (not defined). He cannot head you up at that point. However, he is entitled to sail a proper course for his boat and if he out points you, he can be on a proper course where you are pinching. It is even more complicated downwind where he can wail off the DDW course where you would like to go DDW. So proper course is open to interpretation but within those limits, he cannot take you to China. Other than that, he can sail you to China if he wants. However, if he tries to sail you into the path of a starboard tack boat and you are on port, that starboard boat is an obstruction to you same as if it was a breakwater and you can ask for room from your T-10 friend. At that point he can either tell you to tack and keep clear of you ("you tack now"), or tack himself, or otherwise alter course to give you room. He cannot force you to do a 360 to avoid the other boat. We were on the downwind leg and he brought us up close hauled and into the path of the stbd tacker. Had we just tacked I honestly don't know where our line would be in relation to the stbd tacker but we had to do a 360 to remain on course for the next mark and tt was going to be close enough that I thought we should do a 360 to avoid the boat. You need to ask for room though as in yelling "ROOM" I don't know that he'd have understood that request and likely would have argued with me. If you are on starboard, the port boat needs to avoid the two of you playing games. I might have some details wrong but if you read the few pages I linked it should clear it up. I like this book and am surprised the reviewer gave it one star. http://www.amazon.com/Elvstrom-Explains-Racing-Sailing-2009-2012/dp/0071626247/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1313681023&sr=8-4 <http://www.amazon.com/Elvstrom-Explains-Racing-Sailing-2009-2012/dp/0071626247/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1313681023&sr=8-4> It is really important to know the rules if you are going to do this kind of racing. We raced a T-10 on Tuesday and had some fun doing it. We met going into the first mark. He was on starboard and we were on port. We ducked him and got the inside position around the mark. Downwind we were neck and neck. He had inside approaching the second mark but there was a C&C-41 under spinnaker coming down on us totally out of control. The T-10 ducked us to get the hell out of the way. We all had a poor rounding as we did various things to avoid this 41 foot boat coming across the wrong side of the mark sideways. We overstayed the layline on the last beat but sailed faster and crossed the finish line about 5 boat lengths in front of him. He owes us 2 minutes but we beat him boat for boat. Not bad for a 55 year old wood boat. Love that Lapworth guy. Yeah, me too. I can't believe the difference in performance with my freshly sanded bottom and a new sail. We were consistently in 4th-6th place and now are in the hunt for 1st everytime now and in 10kts or less! Not to shab-ass for a 30yr old 19,000lb boat! Paul

"...and some of us think it's fun." You're a strange guy, George. I know that a few of my protest committee rulings have been appealed, but I never had a decision overturned. I get the parties to agree on positions and speeds, and then hang them with the math and the geometry. Once had a guy leave the room yelling. We do this for pleasure. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Elwers, George A. Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 1:48 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, it was not clear to me whether these are windward of leeward marks you were rounding. When a mark is rounded the overlap rules are re-established if either boat changes tack, and on a free leg the lateral distance between the two boats matters, as does when an overlap was established or broken. Proper course really is ill-defined off the wind. Was it DDW or tacking downwind, or "sailing my polars" (I love the last one since you can lie about this one easily). If you are DDW, put your boom on the port side so you are starboard. This cuts off any assault by a boat above you. It has never been clear to me whether calling out things that are not true is a violation of the rules. Charlie, I've read that you can and will be DSQed for violating the fundamental principal of sportsmanship if you intentionally call out things that are not true or are intended to confuse the other skipper. I think there are several appeals on this. By the way, anyone who hasn't read appeals, which are available from US Sailing on their web site, should. There are some interesting clarifications of rules (and some of us think it's fun.) Arcanely, Charlie Annapolis From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pw… [at] aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 12:20 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Specifically, at a mark rounding, if he was the inside boat he is required to make a tight rounding and cannot make a seaman like rounding. He cannot sail straight and keep you from rounding. He was ahead both times although the first time we were just about 6' off his stern about to do a port rounding and he swerved to stbd real quick which took us by suprise and then did his rounding. We had to come up to avoid him but then we got inside of him after the rounding and started to pass to windward and that is when he took us up into the path of a stbd tacker on the lay line. We had to do a 360 because we can't outpoint him and there was a stbd tacker bearing down on us. What I do in a case like that is force the other boat very close to the mark on the approach then go wide just before the mark and come close coming out of the mark. At that point he has gone wide going out of the mark and we go between him and the mark, gaining an advantage. It is always fun to look at the expression on the crew of the other boat as they realize they just got skunked. But on your point, assuming he is inside and you are following him wide, he must go around sharply and cannot continue straight. If he overlaps you from within 2 boat lengths from a clear astern position, he must sail his proper course (not defined). He cannot head you up at that point. However, he is entitled to sail a proper course for his boat and if he out points you, he can be on a proper course where you are pinching. It is even more complicated downwind where he can wail off the DDW course where you would like to go DDW. So proper course is open to interpretation but within those limits, he cannot take you to China. Other than that, he can sail you to China if he wants. However, if he tries to sail you into the path of a starboard tack boat and you are on port, that starboard boat is an obstruction to you same as if it was a breakwater and you can ask for room from your T-10 friend. At that point he can either tell you to tack and keep clear of you ("you tack now"), or tack himself, or otherwise alter course to give you room. He cannot force you to do a 360 to avoid the other boat. We were on the downwind leg and he brought us up close hauled and into the path of the stbd tacker. Had we just tacked I honestly don't know where our line would be in relation to the stbd tacker but we had to do a 360 to remain on course for the next mark and tt was going to be close enough that I thought we should do a 360 to avoid the boat. You need to ask for room though as in yelling "ROOM" I don't know that he'd have understood that request and likely would have argued with me. If you are on starboard, the port boat needs to avoid the two of you playing games. I might have some details wrong but if you read the few pages I linked it should clear it up. I like this book and am surprised the reviewer gave it one star. http://www.amazon.com/Elvstrom-Explains-Racing-Sailing-2009-2012/dp/0071626247/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1313681023&sr=8-4 It is really important to know the rules if you are going to do this kind of racing. We raced a T-10 on Tuesday and had some fun doing it. We met going into the first mark. He was on starboard and we were on port. We ducked him and got the inside position around the mark. Downwind we were neck and neck. He had inside approaching the second mark but there was a C&C-41 under spinnaker coming down on us totally out of control. The T-10 ducked us to get the hell out of the way. We all had a poor rounding as we did various things to avoid this 41 foot boat coming across the wrong side of the mark sideways. We overstayed the layline on the last beat but sailed faster and crossed the finish line about 5 boat lengths in front of him. He owes us 2 minutes but we beat him boat for boat. Not bad for a 55 year old wood boat. Love that Lapworth guy. Yeah, me too. I can't believe the difference in performance with my freshly sanded bottom and a new sail. We were consistently in 4th-6th place and now are in the hunt for 1st everytime now and in 10kts or less! Not to shab-ass for a 30yr old 19,000lb boat! Paul

Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to leeward of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching in (money in the bank - at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as you describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has the right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat lengths abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to leeward, then I would say you were in the wrong on the first case. Cheers, Anyway, Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule would not apply and they can luff you. You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They violated 18.3. Cheers, Allen On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com<mailto:pw… [at] aol.com>> wrote: Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before rounding the mark. We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing the passing, correct? In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was passing me. He backed off as well. So was I right in one or both instances? Thanks - Paul 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear. Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

Charlie / Allen - I've been thinking I was in the wrong in the first case of being luffed up but since a picture is worth a thousand words I drew up a diagram as to what happened. I am the blue boat and Reveille is the red boat. At the start I was leeward (further from the mark) but ahead of him. We tacked at the same time so I guess I did overtake him. My original thought was that we were essentially at equal speeds but coming in at different angles and that I wasn't overtaking him per se but that we just merged tacks. We had a friend out taking pictures and there is a pretty good time sequence photo series. https://plus.google.com/photos/110062851928271197385/albums/5899207335774077201 Scroll down until you see the bridge in the background and the series starts there. Just to be confusing I am the white boat with the red boot stripe and the Kevlar genoa and he is the light blue Tartan 10. Thanks for your input. Paul From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to leeward of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching in (money in the bank – at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as you describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has the right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat lengths abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to leeward, then I would say you were in the wrong on the first case. Cheers, Anyway, Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule would not apply and they can luff you. You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They violated 18.3. Cheers, Allen On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before rounding the mark. We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing the passing, correct? In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was passing me. He backed off as well. So was I right in one or both instances? Thanks - Paul 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boatclear asternbecomesoverlappedwithin two of her hull lengths toleewardof a boat on the sametack, she shall not sail above herproper coursewhile they remain on the sametackandoverlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if theoverlap begins while thewindwardboat is required by rule 13 tokeep clear. Proper CourseA course a boat would sail tofinish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has noproper course before her starting signal.

Charlie / Allen I was just looking at the photo sequence and in pic #38 it actually does look like I am ahead of him and in the following pics he comes up and tries to luff me up. https://plus.google.com/photos/110062851928271197385/albums/5899207335774077201/5899208782635472258?pid=5899208782635472258&oid=110062851928271197385 Does it look like that to you? Thanks - Paul From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to leeward of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching in (money in the bank – at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as you describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has the right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat lengths abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to leeward, then I would say you were in the wrong on the first case. Cheers, Anyway, Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule would not apply and they can luff you. You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They violated 18.3. Cheers, Allen On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before rounding the mark. We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing the passing, correct? In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was passing me. He backed off as well. So was I right in one or both instances? Thanks - Paul 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boatclear asternbecomesoverlappedwithin two of her hull lengths toleewardof a boat on the sametack, she shall not sail above herproper coursewhile they remain on the sametackandoverlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if theoverlap begins while thewindwardboat is required by rule 13 tokeep clear. Proper CourseA course a boat would sail tofinish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has noproper course before her starting signal.

Looking at the pictures for the first case it looks like the other boat was clear astern and overlapped you within two boat lengths to leeward. Therefore he cannot sail above his proper course. But it is HIS proper course. If he can out point you, that is your problem. But in this case, his proper course is the course that would take him around the mark and he cannot point higher than that. Once you are within 3 of your boat lengths of the mark and you were ahead, then he has the additional burden that he must give you buoy room so he can not sail so high as to push you above the buoy. Given that, I think you were right in both cases. Allen On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 6:34 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > Charlie / Allen - > > I've been thinking I was in the wrong in the first case of being luffed > up but since a picture is worth a thousand words I drew up a diagram as to > what happened. I am the blue boat and Reveille is the red boat. At the > start I was leeward (further from the mark) but ahead of him. We tacked at > the same time so I guess I did overtake him. My original thought was that > we were essentially at equal speeds but coming in at different angles and > that I wasn't overtaking him per se but that we just merged tacks. > > We had a friend out taking pictures and there is a pretty good time > sequence photo series. > > https://plus.google.com/photos/110062851928271197385/albums/5899207335774077201 > > Scroll down until you see the bridge in the background and the series > starts there. Just to be confusing I am the white boat with the red boot > stripe and the Kevlar genoa and he is the light blue Tartan 10. > > Thanks for your input. > > Paul > > [image: overtaking rule.bmp] > -----Original Message----- > From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question > > > Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to > leeward of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching > in (money in the bank – at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as > you describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has > the right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat > lengths abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to > leeward, then I would say you were in the wrong on the first case. > > Cheers, Anyway, > Charlie > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com?>] > *On Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question > > > > > I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second > you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you > and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. > > In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from > clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear > astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to > leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to > within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said > they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. > But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule > would not apply and they can luff you. > > You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were > overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. > > I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One > thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the > situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say > the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away > and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case > it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the > zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit > me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They > violated 18.3. > > Cheers, > > Allen > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > > Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line > for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten > 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point > higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I > really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing > higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind > after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to > luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard > to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before > our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't > flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before > rounding the mark. > > We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and > then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is > illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat > doing the passing, correct? > > > In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when > we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away > on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was > passing me. He backed off as well. > > So was I right in one or both instances? > > Thanks - > > Paul > > > *17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE* > If a boat *clear astern *becomes *overlapped *within two of her hull > lengths to *leeward *of a boat on the same *tack*, she shall not sail > above > her *proper course *while they remain on the same *tack *and *overlapped* > within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails > astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the *overlap* > begins while the *windward *boat is required by rule 13 to *keep clear*. > > *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as > possible in > the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A > boat > has no *proper course *before her starting signal. > > > > > > >

Paul, as i understand clear ahead, clear astern. if he obtains an overlap with in 2 boat lengths from astern he has a restricted overlap and cannot luff you up. If he obtained an overlap by tacking to leeward of you, he has an unrestricted overlap. he can luff you up till his hearts content. I see 2 other rules he violated. avoiding a collision and room to keep clear. Don't have my rule book handy to give you details. I think you have a case. Randy Cal 2-29 Out Patient pw… [at] aol.com wrote: Charlie / Allen I was just looking at the photo sequence and in pic #38 it actually does look like I am ahead of him and in the following pics he comes up and tries to luff me up. https://plus.google.com/photos/110062851928271197385/albums/5899207335774077201/5899208782635472258?pid=5899208782635472258&oid=110062851928271197385 Does it look like that to you? Thanks - Paul From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to leeward of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching in (money in the bank – at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as you describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has the right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat lengths abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to leeward, then I would say you were in the wrong on the first case. Cheers, Anyway, Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule would not apply and they can luff you. You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They violated 18.3. Cheers, Allen On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before rounding the mark. We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing the passing, correct? In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was passing me. He backed off as well. So was I right in one or both instances? Thanks - Paul 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear. Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

Randy - Were you able to see the diagram I drew up and look at the pics on that link? We tacked at the same time. Before the tack he was astern of me but 3-4 boat lengths windward of me. After the tack he was ahead of me but 2-3 boat lengths leeward of me. As we accelerated it appears from the pics that I got ahead, or at least caught him, as I was on a close reach and he was hard on the wind and then he tried to luff me up. In the case of a "tie" ie: getting to the same spot at the same time on slightly different tacks who has rights if I am on proper course? I guess if you were to draw concentric circles around the mark I would be the one overtaking and the fact that we got to the same spot at the same time really has no bearing on anything. (thinking out loud) Paul From: Saylorran <sa… [at] yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:57 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, as i understand clear ahead, clear astern. if he obtains an overlap with in 2 boat lengths from astern he has a restricted overlap and cannot luff you up. If he obtained an overlap by tacking to leeward of you, he has an unrestricted overlap. he can luff you up till his hearts content. I see 2 other rules he violated. avoiding a collision and room to keep clear. Don't have my rule book handy to give you details. I think you have a case. Randy Cal 2-29 Out Patient pw… [at] aol.com wrote: Charlie / Allen I was just looking at the photo sequence and in pic #38 it actually does look like I am ahead of him and in the following pics he comes up and tries to luff me up. https://plus.google.com/photos/110062851928271197385/albums/5899207335774077201/5899208782635472258?pid=5899208782635472258&oid=110062851928271197385 Does it look like that to you? Thanks - Paul From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to leeward of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching in (money in the bank – at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as you describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has the right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat lengths abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to leeward, then I would say you were in the wrong on the first case. Cheers, Anyway, Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule would not apply and they can luff you. You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They violated 18.3. Cheers, Allen On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before rounding the mark. We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing the passing, correct? In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was passing me. He backed off as well. So was I right in one or both instances? Thanks - Paul 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boatclear asternbecomesoverlappedwithin two of her hull lengths toleewardof a boat on the sametack, she shall not sail above herproper coursewhile they remain on the sametackandoverlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if theoverlap begins while thewindwardboat is required by rule 13 tokeep clear. Proper CourseA course a boat would sail tofinish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has noproper course before her starting signal.

Paul. I saw the red blue boats diagram. I can't see the pictures yet. All overlaps were broken Once you tacked and your boom is thru the wind, you were on port tack. Then it looks like he tacked on a port tack. A new overlap situation was created. If he tacked behind you and obtained the overlap from astern 2 boats lenghts away. It is a restricted overlap. If he tacked leeward of you. And he was no longer clear astearn it is unrestricted. I will have to find my source data. I am afraid it might be a quiz question in the North U rules class I took. I always run into that senerio in the starting sequence. The instructor gave both senerios before and after the gun goes off. I know, This question came up since so many different boats race in the same class. I left believing a boat cannot force you away from your course unless it was an unrestricted overlap. As I reread your last response. He would have to prove proper course if you were sailing to the proper course. But for some reason, I remember someone asked the Question. If he tacks under you and obtains an unrestricted overlap. He can take you to the layline for some stupid reason. But he has to give you room to keep clear and he has to prevent a collision. As far as mark room goes. If you entered the zone on the same tack 3 boat lengths out, clear ahead and clear astern of him, you are able to round the mark. providing you do so in a manner that does not prevent him from sailing the fastest line to the next mark.. I have to look at my notes again. These are everyday PHRF occurances. Respectfully Randy pw… [at] aol.com wrote: Randy - Were you able to see the diagram I drew up and look at the pics on that link? We tacked at the same time. Before the tack he was astern of me but 3-4 boat lengths windward of me. After the tack he was ahead of me but 2-3 boat lengths leeward of me. As we accelerated it appears from the pics that I got ahead, or at least caught him, as I was on a close reach and he was hard on the wind and then he tried to luff me up. In the case of a "tie" ie: getting to the same spot at the same time on slightly different tacks who has rights if I am on proper course? I guess if you were to draw concentric circles around the mark I would be the one overtaking and the fact that we got to the same spot at the same time really has no bearing on anything. (thinking out loud) Paul From: Saylorran <sa… [at] yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:57 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, as i understand clear ahead, clear astern. if he obtains an overlap with in 2 boat lengths from astern he has a restricted overlap and cannot luff you up. If he obtained an overlap by tacking to leeward of you, he has an unrestricted overlap. he can luff you up till his hearts content. I see 2 other rules he violated. avoiding a collision and room to keep clear. Don't have my rule book handy to give you details. I think you have a case. Randy Cal 2-29 Out Patient pw… [at] aol.com wrote: Charlie / Allen I was just looking at the photo sequence and in pic #38 it actually does look like I am ahead of him and in the following pics he comes up and tries to luff me up. https://plus.google.com/photos/110062851928271197385/albums/5899207335774077201/5899208782635472258?pid=5899208782635472258&oid=110062851928271197385 Does it look like that to you? Thanks - Paul From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to leeward of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching in (money in the bank – at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as you describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has the right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat lengths abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to leeward, then I would say you were in the wrong on the first case. Cheers, Anyway, Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule would not apply and they can luff you. You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They violated 18.3. Cheers, Allen On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before rounding the mark. We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing the passing, correct? In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was passing me. He backed off as well. So was I right in one or both instances? Thanks - Paul 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear. Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

One point is that the proper course in question is the leeward boats. He can take you above your proper course if it is not above his. This comes into play if the two boats have different pointing abilities. But in this case the proper course for the other boat is to the mark as I wnderstand it. The only rule interpetation question is with the two boats on the same tack did he overlap you within 2 boat lengths to leeward. If you say he was 2 to 3 boat lengths to leeward then you lose the protest. On Jul 11, 2013 10:34 AM, "Saylorran" <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > Paul. I saw the red blue boats diagram. I can't see the pictures yet. > > All overlaps were broken Once you tacked and your boom is thru the wind, > you were on port tack. Then it looks like he tacked on a port tack. A new > overlap situation was created. > > If he tacked behind you and obtained the overlap from astern 2 boats > lenghts away. It is a restricted overlap. If he tacked leeward of you. And > he was no longer clear astearn it is unrestricted. > > I will have to find my source data. I am afraid it might be a quiz > question in the North U rules class I took. I always run into that senerio > in the starting sequence. The instructor gave both senerios before and > after the gun goes off. I know, This question came up since so many > different boats race in the same class. I left believing a boat cannot > force you away from your course unless it was an unrestricted overlap. > > As I reread your last response. He would have to prove proper course if > you were sailing to the proper course. > > But for some reason, I remember someone asked the Question. If he tacks > under you and obtains an unrestricted overlap. He can take you to the > layline for some stupid reason. But he has to give you room to keep clear > and he has to prevent a collision. > > As far as mark room goes. If you entered the zone on the same tack 3 boat > lengths out, clear ahead and clear astern of him, you are able to round the > mark. providing you do so in a manner that does not prevent him from > sailing the fastest line to the next mark.. > > I have to look at my notes again. These are everyday PHRF occurances. > > Respectfully > Randy > > > > Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G > > > > pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > > Randy - > > Were you able to see the diagram I drew up and look at the pics on that > link? > > We tacked at the same time. Before the tack he was astern of me but 3-4 > boat lengths windward of me. After the tack he was ahead of me but 2-3 > boat lengths leeward of me. As we accelerated it appears from the pics > that I got ahead, or at least caught him, as I was on a close reach and he > was hard on the wind and then he tried to luff me up. In the case of a > "tie" ie: getting to the same spot at the same time on slightly different > tacks who has rights if I am on proper course? > > I guess if you were to draw concentric circles around the mark I would be > the one overtaking and the fact that we got to the same spot at the same > time really has no bearing on anything. (thinking out loud) > > Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Saylorran <sa… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:57 am > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question > > > Paul, > > as i understand clear ahead, clear astern. if he obtains an overlap with > in 2 boat lengths from astern he has a restricted overlap and cannot luff > you up. > > If he obtained an overlap by tacking to leeward of you, he has an > unrestricted overlap. he can luff you up till his hearts content. > > I see 2 other rules he violated. avoiding a collision and room to keep > clear. > > Don't have my rule book handy to give you details. > > I think you have a case. > > Randy > Cal 2-29 > Out Patient > > > > Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G > > > > pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > > Charlie / Allen > > I was just looking at the photo sequence and in pic #38 it actually does > look like I am ahead of him and in the following pics he comes up and tries > to luff me up. > > > https://plus.google.com/photos/110062851928271197385/albums/5899207335774077201/5899208782635472258?pid=5899208782635472258&oid=110062851928271197385 > > Does it look like that to you? > > Thanks - > > Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question > > > Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to > leeward of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching > in (money in the bank – at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as > you describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has > the right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat > lengths abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to > leeward, then I would say you were in the wrong on the first case. > > Cheers, Anyway, > Charlie > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com?>] > *On Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question > > > > > I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second > you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you > and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. > > In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from > clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear > astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to > leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to > within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said > they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. > But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule > would not apply and they can luff you. > > You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were > overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. > > I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One > thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the > situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say > the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away > and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case > it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the > zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit > me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They > violated 18.3. > > Cheers, > > Allen > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > > Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line > for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten > 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point > higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I > really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing > higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind > after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to > luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard > to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before > our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't > flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before > rounding the mark. > > We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and > then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is > illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat > doing the passing, correct? > > > In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when > we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away > on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was > passing me. He backed off as well. > > So was I right in one or both instances? > > Thanks - > > Paul > > > *17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE* > If a boat *clear astern *becomes *overlapped *within two of her hull > lengths to *leeward *of a boat on the same *tack*, she shall not sail > above > her *proper course *while they remain on the same *tack *and *overlapped* > within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails > astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the *overlap* > begins while the *windward *boat is required by rule 13 to *keep clear*. > > *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as > possible in > the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A > boat > has no *proper course *before her starting signal. > > > > > > > >

I think I need a picture/video of what it means exactly to overlap a boat within 2 boat lengths to leeward. Do you essentially have to be on the exact same tack within 2 boat lengths to leeward, catch the boat and then not be able to push them up but if you come in at an acute angle from greater than 2 boat lengths its okay? I think there was a bit of a windshift as well because had he stayed hard on the wind he'd have gone high of the mark so he was coming into us at a bit of an angle as shown in the diagram. He had to fall off a bit to sail a proper course to the mark. We were a bit off the wind already as we'd put a little money in the bank because the wind at that mark is fluky due to the bridge.and were steering a straight course to the mark. We did come up a bit when he tried to luff us as you kind of tell in the pictures. Hope this helps. Paul From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:47 pm Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question One point is that the proper course in question is the leeward boats. He can take you above your proper course if it is not above his. This comes into play if the two boats have different pointing abilities. But in this case the proper course for the other boat is to the mark as I wnderstand it. The only rule interpetation question is with the two boats on the same tack did he overlap you within 2 boat lengths to leeward. If you say he was 2 to 3 boat lengths to leeward then you lose the protest. On Jul 11, 2013 10:34 AM, "Saylorran" <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Paul. I saw the red blue boats diagram. I can't see the pictures yet. All overlaps were broken Once you tacked and your boom is thru the wind, you were on port tack. Then it looks like he tacked on a port tack. A new overlap situation was created. If he tacked behind you and obtained the overlap from astern 2 boats lenghts away. It is a restricted overlap. If he tacked leeward of you. And he was no longer clear astearn it is unrestricted. I will have to find my source data. I am afraid it might be a quiz question in the North U rules class I took. I always run into that senerio in the starting sequence. The instructor gave both senerios before and after the gun goes off. I know, This question came up since so many different boats race in the same class. I left believing a boat cannot force you away from your course unless it was an unrestricted overlap. As I reread your last response. He would have to prove proper course if you were sailing to the proper course. But for some reason, I remember someone asked the Question. If he tacks under you and obtains an unrestricted overlap. He can take you to the layline for some stupid reason. But he has to give you room to keep clear and he has to prevent a collision. As far as mark room goes. If you entered the zone on the same tack 3 boat lengths out, clear ahead and clear astern of him, you are able to round the mark. providing you do so in a manner that does not prevent him from sailing the fastest line to the next mark.. I have to look at my notes again. These are everyday PHRF occurances. Respectfully Randy pw… [at] aol.com wrote: Randy - Were you able to see the diagram I drew up and look at the pics on that link? We tacked at the same time. Before the tack he was astern of me but 3-4 boat lengths windward of me. After the tack he was ahead of me but 2-3 boat lengths leeward of me. As we accelerated it appears from the pics that I got ahead, or at least caught him, as I was on a close reach and he was hard on the wind and then he tried to luff me up. In the case of a "tie" ie: getting to the same spot at the same time on slightly different tacks who has rights if I am on proper course? I guess if you were to draw concentric circles around the mark I would be the one overtaking and the fact that we got to the same spot at the same time really has no bearing on anything. (thinking out loud) Paul From: Saylorran <sa… [at] yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:57 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, as i understand clear ahead, clear astern. if he obtains an overlap with in 2 boat lengths from astern he has a restricted overlap and cannot luff you up. If he obtained an overlap by tacking to leeward of you, he has an unrestricted overlap. he can luff you up till his hearts content. I see 2 other rules he violated. avoiding a collision and room to keep clear. Don't have my rule book handy to give you details. I think you have a case. Randy Cal 2-29 Out Patient pw… [at] aol.com wrote: Charlie / Allen I was just looking at the photo sequence and in pic #38 it actually does look like I am ahead of him and in the following pics he comes up and tries to luff me up. https://plus.google.com/photos/110062851928271197385/albums/5899207335774077201/5899208782635472258?pid=5899208782635472258&oid=110062851928271197385 Does it look like that to you? Thanks - Paul From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to leeward of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching in (money in the bank – at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as you describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has the right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat lengths abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to leeward, then I would say you were in the wrong on the first case. Cheers, Anyway, Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule would not apply and they can luff you. You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They violated 18.3. Cheers, Allen On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before rounding the mark. We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing the passing, correct? In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was passing me. He backed off as well. So was I right in one or both instances? Thanks - Paul 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boatclear asternbecomesoverlappedwithin two of her hull lengths toleewardof a boat on the sametack, she shall not sail above herproper coursewhile they remain on the sametackandoverlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if theoverlap begins while thewindwardboat is required by rule 13 tokeep clear. Proper CourseA course a boat would sail tofinish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has noproper course before her starting signal.

Draw a line perpendicular to your boat at your transom that is two boat lengths long out to leeward. If they cross the line on the same tack they have become overlapped within two boat lengths. I asked this question to the head of US Sailing Rules as I found it confusing. He said it a little differently drawing a line two boat lengths away to leeward. If the boat becomes overlapped inside of that line the rule applies, otherwise it does not. Allen On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 11:21 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > ** > > > I think I need a picture/video of what it means exactly to overlap a boat > within 2 boat lengths to leeward. Do you essentially have to be on the > exact same tack within 2 boat lengths to leeward, catch the boat and then > not be able to push them up but if you come in at an acute angle from > greater than 2 boat lengths its okay? > > I think there was a bit of a windshift as well because had he stayed hard > on the wind he'd have gone high of the mark so he was coming into us at a > bit of an angle as shown in the diagram. He had to fall off a bit to sail a > proper course to the mark. We were a bit off the wind already as we'd put > a little money in the bank because the wind at that mark is fluky due to > the bridge.and were steering a straight course to the mark. We did come up > a bit when he tried to luff us as you kind of tell in the pictures. > > Hope this helps. > > Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:47 pm > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question > > > One point is that the proper course in question is the leeward boats. > He can take you above your proper course if it is not above his. This > comes into play if the two boats have different pointing abilities. But in > this case the proper course for the other boat is to the mark as I > wnderstand it. > The only rule interpetation question is with the two boats on the same > tack did he overlap you within 2 boat lengths to leeward. If you say he > was 2 to 3 boat lengths to leeward then you lose the protest. > On Jul 11, 2013 10:34 AM, "Saylorran" <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > >> ** >> >> Paul. I saw the red blue boats diagram. I can't see the pictures yet. >> >> All overlaps were broken Once you tacked and your boom is thru the >> wind, you were on port tack. Then it looks like he tacked on a port tack. >> A new overlap situation was created. >> >> If he tacked behind you and obtained the overlap from astern 2 boats >> lenghts away. It is a restricted overlap. If he tacked leeward of you. And >> he was no longer clear astearn it is unrestricted. >> >> I will have to find my source data. I am afraid it might be a quiz >> question in the North U rules class I took. I always run into that senerio >> in the starting sequence. The instructor gave both senerios before and >> after the gun goes off. I know, This question came up since so many >> different boats race in the same class. I left believing a boat cannot >> force you away from your course unless it was an unrestricted overlap. >> >> As I reread your last response. He would have to prove proper course if >> you were sailing to the proper course. >> >> But for some reason, I remember someone asked the Question. If he tacks >> under you and obtains an unrestricted overlap. He can take you to the >> layline for some stupid reason. But he has to give you room to keep clear >> and he has to prevent a collision. >> >> As far as mark room goes. If you entered the zone on the same tack 3 >> boat lengths out, clear ahead and clear astern of him, you are able to >> round the mark. providing you do so in a manner that does not prevent him >> from sailing the fastest line to the next mark.. >> >> I have to look at my notes again. These are everyday PHRF occurances. >> >> Respectfully >> Randy >> >> >> >> Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G >> >> >> >> pw… [at] aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> Randy - >> >> Were you able to see the diagram I drew up and look at the pics on that >> link? >> >> We tacked at the same time. Before the tack he was astern of me but 3-4 >> boat lengths windward of me. After the tack he was ahead of me but 2-3 >> boat lengths leeward of me. As we accelerated it appears from the pics >> that I got ahead, or at least caught him, as I was on a close reach and he >> was hard on the wind and then he tried to luff me up. In the case of a >> "tie" ie: getting to the same spot at the same time on slightly different >> tacks who has rights if I am on proper course? >> >> I guess if you were to draw concentric circles around the mark I would be >> the one overtaking and the fact that we got to the same spot at the same >> time really has no bearing on anything. (thinking out loud) >> >> Paul >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Saylorran <sa… [at] yahoo.com> >> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:57 am >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question >> >> >> Paul, >> >> as i understand clear ahead, clear astern. if he obtains an overlap >> with in 2 boat lengths from astern he has a restricted overlap and cannot >> luff you up. >> >> If he obtained an overlap by tacking to leeward of you, he has an >> unrestricted overlap. he can luff you up till his hearts content. >> >> I see 2 other rules he violated. avoiding a collision and room to keep >> clear. >> >> Don't have my rule book handy to give you details. >> >> I think you have a case. >> >> Randy >> Cal 2-29 >> Out Patient >> >> >> >> Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G >> >> >> >> pw… [at] aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> Charlie / Allen >> >> I was just looking at the photo sequence and in pic #38 it actually does >> look like I am ahead of him and in the following pics he comes up and tries >> to luff me up. >> >> >> https://plus.google.com/photos/110062851928271197385/albums/5899207335774077201/5899208782635472258?pid=5899208782635472258&oid=110062851928271197385 >> >> Does it look like that to you? >> >> Thanks - >> >> Paul >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> >> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question >> >> >> Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to >> leeward of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching >> in (money in the bank – at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as >> you describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has >> the right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat >> lengths abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to >> leeward, then I would say you were in the wrong on the first case. >> >> Cheers, Anyway, >> Charlie >> >> *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com?>] >> *On Behalf Of *Allen Edwards >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Subject:* [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question >> >> >> >> >> I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second >> you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you >> and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. >> >> In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from >> clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear >> astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to >> leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to >> within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said >> they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. >> But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule >> would not apply and they can luff you. >> >> You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were >> overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. >> >> I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One >> thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the >> situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say >> the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away >> and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case >> it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the >> zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit >> me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They >> violated 18.3. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Allen >> >> On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: >> >> Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line >> for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten >> 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point >> higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I >> really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing >> higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind >> after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to >> luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard >> to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before >> our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't >> flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before >> rounding the mark. >> >> We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and >> then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is >> illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat >> doing the passing, correct? >> >> >> In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when >> we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away >> on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was >> passing me. He backed off as well. >> >> So was I right in one or both instances? >> >> Thanks - >> >> Paul >> >> >> *17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE* >> If a boat *clear astern *becomes *overlapped *within two of her hull >> lengths to *leeward *of a boat on the same *tack*, she shall not sail >> above >> her *proper course *while they remain on the same *tack *and *overlapped >> * >> within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails >> astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the *overlap* >> begins while the *windward *boat is required by rule 13 to *keep clear*. >> >> *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as >> possible in >> the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. >> A boat >> has no *proper course *before her starting signal. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >

Here's how I see it. Terminology is a tough cookie. Looks like we need to be careful to differentiate boat lengths from the mark for rounding purposes and boat lengths to leeward for purposes of proper course. For proper course purposes, if the overlap from a boat previously clear astern occurs within 2 boat lengths to leeward, the boat that achieves the overlap must keep clear. The windward boat must maintain course and allow the leeward boat room to maneuver. If the overlap occurred more than 2 boat lengths to leeward, the leeward boat can drive right through you if they are on their "proper course" (whatever the heck that means). The "opportunity to keep clear" and the "avoid collision" rules are unlikely to apply since the latter situation unfolds fairly slowly, and the windward boat should be aware of the rights of the leeward boat. Ain't like you didn't see it coming. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 3:06 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Draw a line perpendicular to your boat at your transom that is two boat lengths long out to leeward. If they cross the line on the same tack they have become overlapped within two boat lengths. I asked this question to the head of US Sailing Rules as I found it confusing. He said it a little differently drawing a line two boat lengths away to leeward. If the boat becomes overlapped inside of that line the rule applies, otherwise it does not. Allen On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 11:21 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com<mailto:pw… [at] aol.com>> wrote: I think I need a picture/video of what it means exactly to overlap a boat within 2 boat lengths to leeward. Do you essentially have to be on the exact same tack within 2 boat lengths to leeward, catch the boat and then not be able to push them up but if you come in at an acute angle from greater than 2 boat lengths its okay? I think there was a bit of a windshift as well because had he stayed hard on the wind he'd have gone high of the mark so he was coming into us at a bit of an angle as shown in the diagram. He had to fall off a bit to sail a proper course to the mark. We were a bit off the wind already as we'd put a little money in the bank because the wind at that mark is fluky due to the bridge.and were steering a straight course to the mark. We did come up a bit when he tried to luff us as you kind of tell in the pictures. Hope this helps. Paul From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com>> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:47 pm Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question One point is that the proper course in question is the leeward boats. He can take you above your proper course if it is not above his. This comes into play if the two boats have different pointing abilities. But in this case the proper course for the other boat is to the mark as I wnderstand it. The only rule interpetation question is with the two boats on the same tack did he overlap you within 2 boat lengths to leeward. If you say he was 2 to 3 boat lengths to leeward then you lose the protest. On Jul 11, 2013 10:34 AM, "Saylorran" <sa… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:sa… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: Paul. I saw the red blue boats diagram. I can't see the pictures yet. All overlaps were broken Once you tacked and your boom is thru the wind, you were on port tack. Then it looks like he tacked on a port tack. A new overlap situation was created. If he tacked behind you and obtained the overlap from astern 2 boats lenghts away. It is a restricted overlap. If he tacked leeward of you. And he was no longer clear astearn it is unrestricted. I will have to find my source data. I am afraid it might be a quiz question in the North U rules class I took. I always run into that senerio in the starting sequence. The instructor gave both senerios before and after the gun goes off. I know, This question came up since so many different boats race in the same class. I left believing a boat cannot force you away from your course unless it was an unrestricted overlap. As I reread your last response. He would have to prove proper course if you were sailing to the proper course. But for some reason, I remember someone asked the Question. If he tacks under you and obtains an unrestricted overlap. He can take you to the layline for some stupid reason. But he has to give you room to keep clear and he has to prevent a collision. As far as mark room goes. If you entered the zone on the same tack 3 boat lengths out, clear ahead and clear astern of him, you are able to round the mark. providing you do so in a manner that does not prevent him from sailing the fastest line to the next mark.. I have to look at my notes again. These are everyday PHRF occurances. Respectfully Randy pw… [at] aol.com<mailto:pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: Randy - Were you able to see the diagram I drew up and look at the pics on that link? We tacked at the same time. Before the tack he was astern of me but 3-4 boat lengths windward of me. After the tack he was ahead of me but 2-3 boat lengths leeward of me. As we accelerated it appears from the pics that I got ahead, or at least caught him, as I was on a close reach and he was hard on the wind and then he tried to luff me up. In the case of a "tie" ie: getting to the same spot at the same time on slightly different tacks who has rights if I am on proper course? I guess if you were to draw concentric circles around the mark I would be the one overtaking and the fact that we got to the same spot at the same time really has no bearing on anything. (thinking out loud) Paul From: Saylorran <sa… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:sa… [at] yahoo.com>> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:57 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, as i understand clear ahead, clear astern. if he obtains an overlap with in 2 boat lengths from astern he has a restricted overlap and cannot luff you up. If he obtained an overlap by tacking to leeward of you, he has an unrestricted overlap. he can luff you up till his hearts content. I see 2 other rules he violated. avoiding a collision and room to keep clear. Don't have my rule book handy to give you details. I think you have a case. Randy Cal 2-29 Out Patient pw… [at] aol.com<mailto:pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: Charlie / Allen I was just looking at the photo sequence and in pic #38 it actually does look like I am ahead of him and in the following pics he comes up and tries to luff me up. https://plus.google.com/photos/110062851928271197385/albums/5899207335774077201/5899208782635472258?pid=5899208782635472258&oid=110062851928271197385 Does it look like that to you? Thanks - Paul From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com>> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to leeward of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching in (money in the bank - at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as you describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has the right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat lengths abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to leeward, then I would say you were in the wrong on the first case. Cheers, Anyway, Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com?>] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule would not apply and they can luff you. You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They violated 18.3. Cheers, Allen On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com<mailto:pw… [at] aol.com>> wrote: Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before rounding the mark. We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing the passing, correct? In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was passing me. He backed off as well. So was I right in one or both instances? Thanks - Paul 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear. Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

Charlie / Allen - Here is the definition of proper course Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal. Here is another diagram that I've drawn that I think is correct. In #1 the red boat cannot luff up the blue boat in #2 it is okay. Does that look about right? From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 3:24 pm Subject: RE: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Here’s how I see it. Terminology is a tough cookie. Looks like we need to be careful to differentiate boat lengths from the mark for rounding purposes and boat lengths to leeward for purposes of proper course. For proper course purposes, if the overlap from a boat previously clear astern occurs within 2 boat lengths to leeward, the boat that achieves the overlap must keep clear. The windward boat must maintain course and allow the leeward boat room to maneuver. If the overlap occurred more than 2 boat lengths to leeward, the leeward boat can drive right through you if they are on their “proper course” (whatever the heck that means). The “opportunity to keep clear” and the “avoid collision” rules are unlikely to apply since the latter situation unfolds fairly slowly, and the windward boat should be aware of the rights of the leeward boat. Ain’t like you didn’t see it coming. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 3:06 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Draw a line perpendicular to your boat at your transom that is two boat lengths long out to leeward. If they cross the line on the same tack they have become overlapped within two boat lengths. I asked this question to the head of US Sailing Rules as I found it confusing. He said it a little differently drawing a line two boat lengths away to leeward. If the boat becomes overlapped inside of that line the rule applies, otherwise it does not. Allen On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 11:21 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: I think I need a picture/video of what it means exactly to overlap a boat within 2 boat lengths to leeward. Do you essentially have to be on the exact same tack within 2 boat lengths to leeward, catch the boat and then not be able to push them up but if you come in at an acute angle from greater than 2 boat lengths its okay? I think there was a bit of a windshift as well because had he stayed hard on the wind he'd have gone high of the mark so he was coming into us at a bit of an angle as shown in the diagram. He had to fall off a bit to sail a proper course to the mark. We were a bit off the wind already as we'd put a little money in the bank because the wind at that mark is fluky due to the bridge.and were steering a straight course to the mark. We did come up a bit when he tried to luff us as you kind of tell in the pictures. Hope this helps. Paul From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:47 pm Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question One point is that the proper course in question is the leeward boats. He can take you above your proper course if it is not above his. This comes into play if the two boats have different pointing abilities. But in this case the proper course for the other boat is to the mark as I wnderstand it. The only rule interpetation question is with the two boats on the same tack did he overlap you within 2 boat lengths to leeward. If you say he was 2 to 3 boat lengths to leeward then you lose the protest. On Jul 11, 2013 10:34 AM, "Saylorran" <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: Paul. I saw the red blue boats diagram. I can't see the pictures yet. All overlaps were broken Once you tacked and your boom is thru the wind, you were on port tack. Then it looks like he tacked on a port tack. A new overlap situation was created. If he tacked behind you and obtained the overlap from astern 2 boats lenghts away. It is a restricted overlap. If he tacked leeward of you. And he was no longer clear astearn it is unrestricted. I will have to find my source data. I am afraid it might be a quiz question in the North U rules class I took. I always run into that senerio in the starting sequence. The instructor gave both senerios before and after the gun goes off. I know, This question came up since so many different boats race in the same class. I left believing a boat cannot force you away from your course unless it was an unrestricted overlap. As I reread your last response. He would have to prove proper course if you were sailing to the proper course. But for some reason, I remember someone asked the Question. If he tacks under you and obtains an unrestricted overlap. He can take you to the layline for some stupid reason. But he has to give you room to keep clear and he has to prevent a collision. As far as mark room goes. If you entered the zone on the same tack 3 boat lengths out, clear ahead and clear astern of him, you are able to round the mark. providing you do so in a manner that does not prevent him from sailing the fastest line to the next mark.. I have to look at my notes again. These are everyday PHRF occurances. Respectfully Randy pw… [at] aol.com wrote: Randy - Were you able to see the diagram I drew up and look at the pics on that link? We tacked at the same time. Before the tack he was astern of me but 3-4 boat lengths windward of me. After the tack he was ahead of me but 2-3 boat lengths leeward of me. As we accelerated it appears from the pics that I got ahead, or at least caught him, as I was on a close reach and he was hard on the wind and then he tried to luff me up. In the case of a "tie" ie: getting to the same spot at the same time on slightly different tacks who has rights if I am on proper course? I guess if you were to draw concentric circles around the mark I would be the one overtaking and the fact that we got to the same spot at the same time really has no bearing on anything. (thinking out loud) Paul From: Saylorran <sa… [at] yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:57 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, as i understand clear ahead, clear astern. if he obtains an overlap with in 2 boat lengths from astern he has a restricted overlap and cannot luff you up. If he obtained an overlap by tacking to leeward of you, he has an unrestricted overlap. he can luff you up till his hearts content. I see 2 other rules he violated. avoiding a collision and room to keep clear. Don't have my rule book handy to give you details. I think you have a case. Randy Cal 2-29 Out Patient pw… [at] aol.com wrote: Charlie / Allen I was just looking at the photo sequence and in pic #38 it actually does look like I am ahead of him and in the following pics he comes up and tries to luff me up. https://plus.google.com/photos/110062851928271197385/albums/5899207335774077201/5899208782635472258?pid=5899208782635472258&oid=110062851928271197385 Does it look like that to you? Thanks - Paul From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to leeward of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching in (money in the bank – at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as you describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has the right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat lengths abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to leeward, then I would say you were in the wrong on the first case. Cheers, Anyway, Charlie From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule would not apply and they can luff you. You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They violated 18.3. Cheers, Allen On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before rounding the mark. We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing the passing, correct? In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was passing me. He backed off as well. So was I right in one or both instances? Thanks - Paul 17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boatclear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths toleeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above herproper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if theoverlap begins while thewindward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear. Proper CourseA course a boat would sail tofinish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has noproper course before her starting signal.

I don't have the time right now for a proper reply but there is a great deal of confusion in this statement. The leeward boat still has right of way and is not under obligation to keep clear. They just cannot sail above their proper course. Just be careful when stating a case to use the exact words from the rules you are trying to have apply. Don't look at the intent of the rule or paraphrase it. Allen On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) < hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: > ** > > > Here’s how I see it. Terminology is a tough cookie.**** > > ** ** > > Looks like we need to be careful to differentiate boat lengths from the > mark for rounding purposes and boat lengths to leeward for purposes of > proper course.**** > > ** ** > > For proper course purposes, if the overlap from a boat previously clear > astern occurs within 2 boat lengths to leeward, the boat that achieves the > overlap must keep clear. The windward boat must maintain course and allow > the leeward boat room to maneuver.**** > > ** ** > > If the overlap occurred more than 2 boat lengths to leeward, the leeward > boat can drive right through you if they are on their “proper course” > (whatever the heck that means).**** > > ** ** > > The “opportunity to keep clear” and the “avoid collision” rules are > unlikely to apply since the latter situation unfolds fairly slowly, and the > windward boat should be aware of the rights of the leeward boat. Ain’t > like you didn’t see it coming.**** > > ** ** > > Cheers**** > > Charlie**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, July 11, 2013 3:06 PM > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question**** > > ** ** > > > > > **** > > Draw a line perpendicular to your boat at your transom that is two boat > lengths long out to leeward. If they cross the line on the same tack they > have become overlapped within two boat lengths. I asked this question to > the head of US Sailing Rules as I found it confusing. He said it a little > differently drawing a line two boat lengths away to leeward. If the boat > becomes overlapped inside of that line the rule applies, otherwise it does > not.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > ** ** > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 11:21 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote:**** > > **** > > I think I need a picture/video of what it means exactly to overlap a boat > within 2 boat lengths to leeward. Do you essentially have to be on the > exact same tack within 2 boat lengths to leeward, catch the boat and then > not be able to push them up but if you come in at an acute angle from > greater than 2 boat lengths its okay?**** > > **** > > I think there was a bit of a windshift as well because had he stayed hard > on the wind he'd have gone high of the mark so he was coming into us at a > bit of an angle as shown in the diagram. He had to fall off a bit to sail a > proper course to the mark. We were a bit off the wind already as we'd put > a little money in the bank because the wind at that mark is fluky due to > the bridge.and were steering a straight course to the mark. We did come up > a bit when he tried to luff us as you kind of tell in the pictures.**** > > **** > > Hope this helps.**** > > **** > > Paul**** > > -----Original Message----- > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:47 pm > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question**** > > **** > > One point is that the proper course in question is the leeward boats. He > can take you above your proper course if it is not above his. This comes > into play if the two boats have different pointing abilities. But in this > case the proper course for the other boat is to the mark as I wnderstand > it. **** > > The only rule interpetation question is with the two boats on the same > tack did he overlap you within 2 boat lengths to leeward. If you say he > was 2 to 3 boat lengths to leeward then you lose the protest.**** > > On Jul 11, 2013 10:34 AM, "Saylorran" <sa… [at] yahoo.com> wrote:**** > > **** > > Paul. I saw the red blue boats diagram. I can't see the pictures yet. **** > > ** ** > > All overlaps were broken Once you tacked and your boom is thru the wind, > you were on port tack. Then it looks like he tacked on a port tack. A new > overlap situation was created.**** > > ** ** > > If he tacked behind you and obtained the overlap from astern 2 boats > lenghts away. It is a restricted overlap. If he tacked leeward of you. And > he was no longer clear astearn it is unrestricted. **** > > ** ** > > I will have to find my source data. I am afraid it might be a quiz > question in the North U rules class I took. I always run into that senerio > in the starting sequence. The instructor gave both senerios before and > after the gun goes off. I know, This question came up since so many > different boats race in the same class. I left believing a boat cannot > force you away from your course unless it was an unrestricted overlap.**** > > ** ** > > As I reread your last response. He would have to prove proper course if > you were sailing to the proper course. **** > > ** ** > > But for some reason, I remember someone asked the Question. If he tacks > under you and obtains an unrestricted overlap. He can take you to the > layline for some stupid reason. But he has to give you room to keep clear > and he has to prevent a collision.**** > > ** ** > > As far as mark room goes. If you entered the zone on the same tack 3 boat > lengths out, clear ahead and clear astern of him, you are able to round the > mark. providing you do so in a manner that does not prevent him from > sailing the fastest line to the next mark.. **** > > ** ** > > I have to look at my notes again. These are everyday PHRF occurances.**** > > ** ** > > Respectfully**** > > Randy**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > > Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G **** > > > > > pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > **** > > Randy - **** > > **** > > Were you able to see the diagram I drew up and look at the pics on that > link?**** > > **** > > We tacked at the same time. Before the tack he was astern of me but 3-4 > boat lengths windward of me. After the tack he was ahead of me but 2-3 > boat lengths leeward of me. As we accelerated it appears from the pics > that I got ahead, or at least caught him, as I was on a close reach and he > was hard on the wind and then he tried to luff me up. In the case of a > "tie" ie: getting to the same spot at the same time on slightly different > tacks who has rights if I am on proper course? **** > > **** > > I guess if you were to draw concentric circles around the mark I would be > the one overtaking and the fact that we got to the same spot at the same > time really has no bearing on anything. (thinking out loud)**** > > **** > > Paul**** > > -----Original Message----- > From: Saylorran <sa… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:57 am > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question**** > > **** > > Paul, **** > > ** ** > > as i understand clear ahead, clear astern. if he obtains an overlap with > in 2 boat lengths from astern he has a restricted overlap and cannot luff > you up.**** > > ** ** > > If he obtained an overlap by tacking to leeward of you, he has an > unrestricted overlap. he can luff you up till his hearts content.**** > > ** ** > > I see 2 other rules he violated. avoiding a collision and room to keep > clear. **** > > ** ** > > Don't have my rule book handy to give you details.**** > > ** ** > > I think you have a case.**** > > ** ** > > Randy**** > > Cal 2-29**** > > Out Patient**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > > Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G **** > > > > > pw… [at] aol.com wrote: > > > **** > > Charlie / Allen **** > > **** > > I was just looking at the photo sequence and in pic #38 it actually does > look like I am ahead of him and in the following pics he comes up and tries > to luff me up.**** > > **** > > > https://plus.google.com/photos/110062851928271197385/albums/5899207335774077201/5899208782635472258?pid=5899208782635472258&oid=110062851928271197385 > **** > > **** > > Does it look like that to you?**** > > **** > > Thanks - **** > > **** > > Paul**** > > -----Original Message----- > From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <hu… [at] bah.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question**** > > **** > > Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to leeward > of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching in > (money in the bank – at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as you > describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has the > right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat lengths > abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to leeward, then I > would say you were in the wrong on the first case.**** > > **** > > Cheers, Anyway,**** > > Charlie**** > > **** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com?>] > *On Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question**** > > **** > > > > **** > > I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second you > say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you and > tried to luff you up. They cannot do that.**** > > **** > > In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from clear > astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear astern or > because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to leeward when > the overlapped and because they point higher they came to within two boat > lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said they were to > windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. But in any > event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule would not > apply and they can luff you.**** > > **** > > You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were > overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor.**** > > **** > > I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One thing > I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the > situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say > the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away > and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case > it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the > zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit > me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They > violated 18.3.**** > > **** > > Cheers,**** > > **** > > Allen**** > > **** > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote:**** > > **** > > Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line for > the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten 10 > did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point > higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I > really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing > higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind > after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to > luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard > to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before > our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't > flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before > rounding the mark.**** > > **** > > We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and then > luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is illegal > but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat doing > the passing, correct?**** > > **** > > **** > > In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when we > were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away on > a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was > passing me. He backed off as well.**** > > **** > > So was I right in one or both instances?**** > > **** > > Thanks - **** > > **** > > Paul**** > > **** > > **** > > *17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE***** > > If a boat *clear astern *becomes *overlapped *within two of her hull**** > > lengths to *leeward *of a boat on the same *tack*, she shall not sail > above**** > > her *proper course *while they remain on the same *tack *and *overlapped** > *** > > within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails**** > > astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the *overlap***** > > begins while the *windward *boat is required by rule 13 to *keep clear*.** > ** > > **** > > *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as > possible in**** > > the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A > boat**** > > has no *proper course *before her starting signal.**** > > **** > > **** > > > > **** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > > > > **** > > **** > > >

I had this situation and the result was never determined as I was out of town when the committee decided to meet and the committee would not change the date. Here is how I think of overlap. There are two situations. 1. A boat on the same tack (not the same course) overlaps you from more than two boat lengths leeward, then the leeward/windward ROW rules. Two boats on the same tack (different courses) would be in the same spot at the same time, the leeward boat is the stand on vessel) e.g. I am close hauled, the overlapping boat is close reaching and going faster. He overlaps before he is within two boat lengths of my boat and is leeward so has ROW. 2. A boat is coming from astern and overlaps within two boat lengths leeward ( sailing the same tack and basically the same course) , the overlap is restricted and the windward/leeward rule does not apply. I think the thought is the skipper had chosen his proper course and can't overlap you to leeward to force me to sail above my proper course. If he came from astern and his proper course was above my course he could have passed behind with no ROW issue. The overlapping skipper is then fouling you intentionally instead of sailing the boat. It sounds to me like the J 100 came from astern and was in a restricted overlap. The other situation is not clear. If the pictures are of your boat and the Tarten, it looks like the leeward overlap happened with the Tarten less than two boat lengths to leeward (long lens may distort that). Your description reads like your boat passed the Tarten after the tack and as the windward boat causing an overlap, you are burdened. If the Tarten was overtaking your boat then it looks like a restricted overlap. If there was a room at the mark issue that is a different discussion. Interesting discussion. Sam --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Allen Edwards <allen.p.edwards@...> wrote: > > Draw a line perpendicular to your boat at your transom that is two boat > lengths long out to leeward. If they cross the line on the same tack they > have become overlapped within two boat lengths. I asked this question to > the head of US Sailing Rules as I found it confusing. He said it a little > differently drawing a line two boat lengths away to leeward. If the boat > becomes overlapped inside of that line the rule applies, otherwise it does > not. > > Allen > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 11:21 AM, <pwestla@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I think I need a picture/video of what it means exactly to overlap a boat > > within 2 boat lengths to leeward. Do you essentially have to be on the > > exact same tack within 2 boat lengths to leeward, catch the boat and then > > not be able to push them up but if you come in at an acute angle from > > greater than 2 boat lengths its okay? > > > > I think there was a bit of a windshift as well because had he stayed hard > > on the wind he'd have gone high of the mark so he was coming into us at a > > bit of an angle as shown in the diagram. He had to fall off a bit to sail a > > proper course to the mark. We were a bit off the wind already as we'd put > > a little money in the bank because the wind at that mark is fluky due to > > the bridge.and were steering a straight course to the mark. We did come up > > a bit when he tried to luff us as you kind of tell in the pictures. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Allen Edwards <allen.p.edwards@...> > > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 1:47 pm > > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question > > > > > > One point is that the proper course in question is the leeward boats. > > He can take you above your proper course if it is not above his. This > > comes into play if the two boats have different pointing abilities. But in > > this case the proper course for the other boat is to the mark as I > > wnderstand it. > > The only rule interpetation question is with the two boats on the same > > tack did he overlap you within 2 boat lengths to leeward. If you say he > > was 2 to 3 boat lengths to leeward then you lose the protest. > > On Jul 11, 2013 10:34 AM, "Saylorran" <saylorran@...> wrote: > > > >> ** > >> > >> Paul. I saw the red blue boats diagram. I can't see the pictures yet. > >> > >> All overlaps were broken Once you tacked and your boom is thru the > >> wind, you were on port tack. Then it looks like he tacked on a port tack. > >> A new overlap situation was created. > >> > >> If he tacked behind you and obtained the overlap from astern 2 boats > >> lenghts away. It is a restricted overlap. If he tacked leeward of you. And > >> he was no longer clear astearn it is unrestricted. > >> > >> I will have to find my source data. I am afraid it might be a quiz > >> question in the North U rules class I took. I always run into that senerio > >> in the starting sequence. The instructor gave both senerios before and > >> after the gun goes off. I know, This question came up since so many > >> different boats race in the same class. I left believing a boat cannot > >> force you away from your course unless it was an unrestricted overlap. > >> > >> As I reread your last response. He would have to prove proper course if > >> you were sailing to the proper course. > >> > >> But for some reason, I remember someone asked the Question. If he tacks > >> under you and obtains an unrestricted overlap. He can take you to the > >> layline for some stupid reason. But he has to give you room to keep clear > >> and he has to prevent a collision. > >> > >> As far as mark room goes. If you entered the zone on the same tack 3 > >> boat lengths out, clear ahead and clear astern of him, you are able to > >> round the mark. providing you do so in a manner that does not prevent him > >> from sailing the fastest line to the next mark.. > >> > >> I have to look at my notes again. These are everyday PHRF occurances. > >> > >> Respectfully > >> Randy > >> > >> > >> > >> Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G > >> > >> > >> > >> pwestla@... wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Randy - > >> > >> Were you able to see the diagram I drew up and look at the pics on that > >> link? > >> > >> We tacked at the same time. Before the tack he was astern of me but 3-4 > >> boat lengths windward of me. After the tack he was ahead of me but 2-3 > >> boat lengths leeward of me. As we accelerated it appears from the pics > >> that I got ahead, or at least caught him, as I was on a close reach and he > >> was hard on the wind and then he tried to luff me up. In the case of a > >> "tie" ie: getting to the same spot at the same time on slightly different > >> tacks who has rights if I am on proper course? > >> > >> I guess if you were to draw concentric circles around the mark I would be > >> the one overtaking and the fact that we got to the same spot at the same > >> time really has no bearing on anything. (thinking out loud) > >> > >> Paul > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Saylorran <saylorran@...> > >> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 10:57 am > >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question > >> > >> > >> Paul, > >> > >> as i understand clear ahead, clear astern. if he obtains an overlap > >> with in 2 boat lengths from astern he has a restricted overlap and cannot > >> luff you up. > >> > >> If he obtained an overlap by tacking to leeward of you, he has an > >> unrestricted overlap. he can luff you up till his hearts content. > >> > >> I see 2 other rules he violated. avoiding a collision and room to keep > >> clear. > >> > >> Don't have my rule book handy to give you details. > >> > >> I think you have a case. > >> > >> Randy > >> Cal 2-29 > >> Out Patient > >> > >> > >> > >> Sent from my Samsung Epic™ 4G > >> > >> > >> > >> pwestla@... wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Charlie / Allen > >> > >> I was just looking at the photo sequence and in pic #38 it actually does > >> look like I am ahead of him and in the following pics he comes up and tries > >> to luff me up. > >> > >> > >> https://plus.google.com/photos/110062851928271197385/albums/5899207335774077201/5899208782635472258?pid=5899208782635472258&oid=110062851928271197385 > >> > >> Does it look like that to you? > >> > >> Thanks - > >> > >> Paul > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE) [USA] (ASE) <husar_charlie@...> > >> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am > >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question > >> > >> > >> Paul, in the first case, can we assume that the other boat was to > >> leeward of you, rather than windward as you describe. If you were reaching > >> in (money in the bank – at any rate the T-10 is a higher pointed boat as > >> you describe) and the other boat was coming up, then the leeward boat has > >> the right of way assuming that the overlap occurred more than 2 boat > >> lengths abeam as Allen describes below. If that boat was indeed to > >> leeward, then I would say you were in the wrong on the first case. > >> > >> Cheers, Anyway, > >> Charlie > >> > >> *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com?>] > >> *On Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 11, 2013 1:47 AM > >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > >> *Subject:* [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Rules Question > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I am not sure I follow completely the first instance but on the second > >> you say the J-100 overlapped you within 2 boat lengths to leeward of you > >> and tried to luff you up. They cannot do that. > >> > >> In the first instance, it sounds like they did not overlap you from > >> clear astern within two boat lengths either because they were not clear > >> astern or because they were more than two boat lengths away from you to > >> leeward when the overlapped and because they point higher they came to > >> within two boat lengths of you after they were overlapped. But you said > >> they were to windward of you so the story really doesn't make sense to me. > >> But in any event, if they did not meet the two conditions listed, the rule > >> would not apply and they can luff you. > >> > >> You did not mention the three boat length circle but if you were > >> overlapped when the first of you entered it, that could be a factor. > >> > >> I had a huge discussion on a rule violation on Sailing Anarchy. One > >> thing I learned there was that when you are discussing a rule, describe the > >> situation in the exact words of the rule. In other words in this case say > >> the other boat overlapped us from from clear astern one boat length away > >> and then sailed above their proper course. Things like that. In my case > >> it was 18.3 and what I would say is that the other boat tacked inside the > >> zone and I became overlapped with them at which time they headed up and hit > >> me and left a mark on both my windward bow and their leeward side. They > >> violated 18.3. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> Allen > >> > >> On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <pwestla@...> wrote: > >> > >> Okay, tonight in our Wed night beer can race we tacked on the lay line > >> for the first mark and were laying the mark right on the money. A Tarten > >> 10 did the same but they tacked a bit sooner as they can generally point > >> higher than we can and since they were 3-4 boat lengths windward of us I > >> really thought they'd beat us to the mark. Well because they were pointing > >> higher and we put a little money in the bank and were slightly off the wind > >> after our tack, our courses merged well before the mark. He then tried to > >> luff me up and I hollered something about sailing proper course. It's hard > >> to say if we really overtook him as we were ahead but leeward of him before > >> our tack but once we came together on the tack to the mark and I didn't > >> flinch when he tried to take me up, I was able to pass him just before > >> rounding the mark. > >> > >> We used to call this hunting when a boat would catch another boat and > >> then luff him up to make him tack. It is my understanding that this is > >> illegal but that it is legal for the boat being passed to luff up the boat > >> doing the passing, correct? > >> > >> > >> In the second instance, a J-100 caught us and tried to luff us up when > >> we were sailing a proper course again and laying the mark a half mile away > >> on a reach. I told him to that he could not try to luff me up if he was > >> passing me. He backed off as well. > >> > >> So was I right in one or both instances? > >> > >> Thanks - > >> > >> Paul > >> > >> > >> *17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE* > >> If a boat *clear astern *becomes *overlapped *within two of her hull > >> lengths to *leeward *of a boat on the same *tack*, she shall not sail > >> above > >> her *proper course *while they remain on the same *tack *and *overlapped > >> * > >> within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails > >> astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the *overlap* > >> begins while the *windward *boat is required by rule 13 to *keep clear*. > >> > >> *Proper Course *A course a boat would sail to *finish *as soon as > >> possible in > >> the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. > >> A boat > >> has no *proper course *before her starting signal. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >

Wow, there are so many things wrong here... The important thing when discussing rule situations is to use the exact language of the rules. You cannot go from another boat can't do something to say that means you can do something. This comes up in the proper course discussions. Nothing gives you the right to sail your proper course except in mark roundings 18.2. In 17, the rule is preventing a boat from sailing above their proper course and it says nothing about your proper course. *17* *ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER course *If a boat *clear* *astern* becomes * overlapped* within two of her hull lengths to *leeward* of a boat on the same *tack* , she shall not sail above her *proper* *course *while they remain on the same *tack* and *overlapped *within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the *overlap* begins while the *windward* boat is required by rule 13 to *keep* *clear* . *13* *WHILE TACKING* After a boat passes head to wind, she shall *keep* * clear* of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course . During that time rules 10, 11 and 12 do not apply. If two boats are subject to this rule at the same 12 time, the one on the other's port side or the one astern shall *keep* *clear*. Some comments inline: Allen On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 9:19 AM, slavanaway <sa… [at] lavanaway.org> wrote: > ** > > > I had this situation and the result was never determined as I was out of > town when the committee decided to meet and the committee would not change > the date. > > Here is how I think of overlap. > > There are two situations. > > 1. A boat on the same tack (not the same course) overlaps you from more > than two boat lengths leeward, then the leeward/windward ROW rules. Two > boats on the same tack (different courses) would be in the same spot at the > same time, the leeward boat is the stand on vessel) e.g. I am close hauled, > the overlapping boat is close reaching and going faster. He overlaps before > he is within two boat lengths of my boat and is leeward so has ROW. > There is no stand on boat in racing. > > 2. A boat is coming from astern and overlaps within two boat lengths > leeward ( sailing the same tack and basically the same course) , the > overlap is restricted and the windward/leeward rule does not apply. > The windward/leeward rule always applies with the exception that in this case a leeward boat cannot sail above their proper course but they still have the ROW. You cannot, for example, come down on them to sail your proper course. > > I think the thought is the skipper had chosen his proper course and can't > overlap you to leeward to force me to sail above my proper course. If he > came from astern and his proper course was above my course he could have > passed behind with no ROW issue. The overlapping skipper is then fouling > you intentionally instead of sailing the boat. > A skipper does not chose his proper course. There is nothing that prevents a skipper from forcing you above your proper course as long as he is not sailing above his. This is obviously only an issue if the boats are on different courses or if one out points the other. The point is, nothing gives you a right to your proper course with the exception of mark room. > > It sounds to me like the J 100 came from astern and was in a restricted > overlap. > > The other situation is not clear. If the pictures are of your boat and the > Tarten, it looks like the leeward overlap happened with the Tarten less > than two boat lengths to leeward (long lens may distort that). > > Your description reads like your boat passed the Tarten after the tack and > as the windward boat causing an overlap, you are burdened. > > If the Tarten was overtaking your boat then it looks like a restricted > overlap. > > If there was a room at the mark issue that is a different discussion. > > Interesting discussion. > > Sam > Cheers, Allen

You raise a good point. If boats become overlapped with the leeward boat causing the overlap and the leeward boat comes from *clear astern* and the overlap is created within *two boat lengths to windward* of the overlapped boat, the leeward boat cannot sail above her *proper course*. If I am in the middle of a leg and not *fetching* the *mark* what is my *proper course*? --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Allen Edwards <allen.p.edwards@...> wrote: > > Wow, there are so many things wrong here... The important thing when > discussing rule situations is to use the exact language of the rules. You > cannot go from another boat can't do something to say that means you can do > something. This comes up in the proper course discussions. Nothing gives > you the right to sail your proper course except in mark roundings 18.2. In > 17, the rule is preventing a boat from sailing above their proper course > and it says nothing about your proper course. > > *17* *ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER course *If a boat *clear* *astern* becomes * > overlapped* within two of her hull lengths to *leeward* of a boat on the > same *tack* , she shall not sail above her *proper* *course *while they > remain on the same *tack* and *overlapped *within that distance, unless in > doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not > apply if the *overlap* begins while the *windward* boat is required by rule > 13 to *keep* *clear* . > > *13* *WHILE TACKING* After a boat passes head to wind, she shall *keep* * > clear* of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course . During that > time rules 10, 11 and 12 do not apply. If two boats are subject to this > rule at the same 12 time, the one on the other's port side or the one > astern shall *keep* *clear*. > > Some comments inline: > > Allen > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 9:19 AM, slavanaway <sam@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I had this situation and the result was never determined as I was out of > > town when the committee decided to meet and the committee would not change > > the date. > > > > Here is how I think of overlap. > > > > There are two situations. > > > > 1. A boat on the same tack (not the same course) overlaps you from more > > than two boat lengths leeward, then the leeward/windward ROW rules. Two > > boats on the same tack (different courses) would be in the same spot at the > > same time, the leeward boat is the stand on vessel) e.g. I am close hauled, > > the overlapping boat is close reaching and going faster. He overlaps before > > he is within two boat lengths of my boat and is leeward so has ROW. > > > There is no stand on boat in racing. > > > > > 2. A boat is coming from astern and overlaps within two boat lengths > > leeward ( sailing the same tack and basically the same course) , the > > overlap is restricted and the windward/leeward rule does not apply. > > > The windward/leeward rule always applies with the exception that in this > case a leeward boat cannot sail above their proper course but they still > have the ROW. You cannot, for example, come down on them to sail your > proper course. > > > > > I think the thought is the skipper had chosen his proper course and can't > > overlap you to leeward to force me to sail above my proper course. If he > > came from astern and his proper course was above my course he could have > > passed behind with no ROW issue. The overlapping skipper is then fouling > > you intentionally instead of sailing the boat. > > > > A skipper does not chose his proper course. There is nothing that prevents > a skipper from forcing you above your proper course as long as he is not > sailing above his. This is obviously only an issue if the boats are on > different courses or if one out points the other. The point is, nothing > gives you a right to your proper course with the exception of mark room. > > > > > It sounds to me like the J 100 came from astern and was in a restricted > > overlap. > > > > The other situation is not clear. If the pictures are of your boat and the > > Tarten, it looks like the leeward overlap happened with the Tarten less > > than two boat lengths to leeward (long lens may distort that). > > > > Your description reads like your boat passed the Tarten after the tack and > > as the windward boat causing an overlap, you are burdened. > > > > If the Tarten was overtaking your boat then it looks like a restricted > > overlap. > > > > If there was a room at the mark issue that is a different discussion. > > > > Interesting discussion. > > > > Sam > > > > Cheers, Allen >

Better, but what's with the part about the leeward boat "causing" the overlap? Did the windward boat cause the overlap by going slow? * Proper course *A course a boat would sail to *finish* as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no *proper* *course *before her starting signal. I wasn't always so picky about the wording. But then I got protested and posted my situation on Sailing Anarchy. It generated something over 100 replies many of which schooled me in using the words of the rules. Interestingly it wasn't always that way. It changed 10 or 20 years ago (can't remember what the guy said). Before that the PC would look at the "intent" of the rule. Now they only look at the words of the rule. Allen On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 9:50 AM, slavanaway <sa… [at] lavanaway.org> wrote: > ** > > > You raise a good point. > > If boats become overlapped with the leeward boat causing the overlap and > the leeward boat comes from *clear astern* and the overlap is created > within *two boat lengths to windward* of the overlapped boat, the leeward > boat cannot sail above her *proper course*. > > If I am in the middle of a leg and not *fetching* the *mark* what is my > *proper course*? > > > --- In Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Allen Edwards <allen.p.edwards@...> > wrote: > > > > > Wow, there are so many things wrong here... The important thing when > > discussing rule situations is to use the exact language of the rules. You > > cannot go from another boat can't do something to say that means you can > do > > something. This comes up in the proper course discussions. Nothing gives > > you the right to sail your proper course except in mark roundings 18.2. > In > > 17, the rule is preventing a boat from sailing above their proper course > > and it says nothing about your proper course. > > > > *17* *ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER course *If a boat *clear* *astern* > becomes * > > overlapped* within two of her hull lengths to *leeward* of a boat on the > > same *tack* , she shall not sail above her *proper* *course *while they > > remain on the same *tack* and *overlapped *within that distance, unless > in > > > doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not > > apply if the *overlap* begins while the *windward* boat is required by > rule > > 13 to *keep* *clear* . > > > > *13* *WHILE TACKING* After a boat passes head to wind, she shall *keep* * > > clear* of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course . During that > > > time rules 10, 11 and 12 do not apply. If two boats are subject to this > > rule at the same 12 time, the one on the other's port side or the one > > astern shall *keep* *clear*. > > > > Some comments inline: > > > > Allen > > > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 9:19 AM, slavanaway <sam@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > I had this situation and the result was never determined as I was out > of > > > town when the committee decided to meet and the committee would not > change > > > the date. > > > > > > Here is how I think of overlap. > > > > > > There are two situations. > > > > > > 1. A boat on the same tack (not the same course) overlaps you from more > > > than two boat lengths leeward, then the leeward/windward ROW rules. Two > > > boats on the same tack (different courses) would be in the same spot > at the > > > same time, the leeward boat is the stand on vessel) e.g. I am close > hauled, > > > the overlapping boat is close reaching and going faster. He overlaps > before > > > he is within two boat lengths of my boat and is leeward so has ROW. > > > > > There is no stand on boat in racing. > > > > > > > > 2. A boat is coming from astern and overlaps within two boat lengths > > > leeward ( sailing the same tack and basically the same course) , the > > > overlap is restricted and the windward/leeward rule does not apply. > > > > > The windward/leeward rule always applies with the exception that in this > > case a leeward boat cannot sail above their proper course but they still > > have the ROW. You cannot, for example, come down on them to sail your > > proper course. > > > > > > > > I think the thought is the skipper had chosen his proper course and > can't > > > overlap you to leeward to force me to sail above my proper course. If > he > > > came from astern and his proper course was above my course he could > have > > > passed behind with no ROW issue. The overlapping skipper is then > fouling > > > you intentionally instead of sailing the boat. > > > > > > > A skipper does not chose his proper course. There is nothing that > prevents > > a skipper from forcing you above your proper course as long as he is not > > sailing above his. This is obviously only an issue if the boats are on > > different courses or if one out points the other. The point is, nothing > > gives you a right to your proper course with the exception of mark room. > > > > > > > > It sounds to me like the J 100 came from astern and was in a restricted > > > overlap. > > > > > > The other situation is not clear. If the pictures are of your boat and > the > > > Tarten, it looks like the leeward overlap happened with the Tarten less > > > than two boat lengths to leeward (long lens may distort that). > > > > > > Your description reads like your boat passed the Tarten after the tack > and > > > as the windward boat causing an overlap, you are burdened. > > > > > > If the Tarten was overtaking your boat then it looks like a restricted > > > overlap. > > > > > > If there was a room at the mark issue that is a different discussion. > > > > > > Interesting discussion. > > > > > > Sam > > > > > > > Cheers, Allen > > > > >