Strange engine problem

Hi All, I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. Anyone experience anything like this? Allen

Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot leave out any possibilities. What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Hi All, I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. Anyone experience anything like this? Allen

Not near Bermuda Triangle. The knot meter is very old and all by itself. I think at one time it had a sticker on it that said something about being special 1964 Olympics version. It says "Electro Marine Systems USA" on it. The through hull fitting with the paddle wheel is about 1.5 inches in diameter so you only clean it at the dock and you have to be quick with the plug. Allen On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Husar, Charlie [USA] <hu… [at] bah.com > wrote: > > > Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot leave > out any possibilities. > > What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? > > Cheers > Charlie > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > Hi All, > > I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had > a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I > was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing > RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second > problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which > obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 > minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the > engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. > Anyone experience anything like this? > > Allen > > >

I think your trimmer is on track with a voltage problem. Since your starter got the engine started, your battery was in the circuit. if this happens again put a voltmeter to work and see if your charge voltage from your alternator or generator(1956?) is in excess of 13.5 volts or the full output of the charge is not getting to the battery banks but rather going to the load. What position was your battery selection switch in? Good Hunting, My Best, Mike From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 7:18:11 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot leave out any possibilities. What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Hi All, I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. Anyone experience anything like this? Allen

Interesting that you should ask about the battery selector switch as I forgot to mention that it was not in its normal position. It was set to both where I usually have it set to the first battery. Both batteries are about the same age and relatively new. Both had lots of water when I checked last week. Both sit on a charger when the boat is in the slip. I did measure the battery voltage and it was 12.7 or so, which is a charged battery although not necessarily what I am used to for a charging battery. But I have never measured my voltage while charging and my engine runs at 1200 RPM which probably isn't putting out that much current so that might be normal. I put a voltmeter on the coil but it was a digital voltmeter and jumped around. I have had that experience with digital voltmeters and didn't think to use the analog one until the problem had gone away. At that time, the digital voltmeter still jumped around and the analog voltmeter gave a normal reading but like I said, the engine was running perfectly by then. What I don't understand is if there was a bad ground, one common to the engine and the knot meter, how did the engine start? The current draw for the starter is so much higher than the engine that any high resistance in a ground sufficient to cause troubles for the engine would certainly drop the starting voltage to the point that the engine would not start. Obviously I am missing something as it almost certainly is an electrical problem. I should also mention that I have taken an if it ain't broke don't fix it approach with the wiring on this engine and if you look at it, it looks like it has been in a salt water environment for 50 years. http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=exhaust/engine.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20engine . Allen On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:21 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > I think your trimmer is on track with a voltage problem. Since your > starter got the engine started, your battery was in the circuit. if this > happens again put a voltmeter to work and see if your charge voltage from > your alternator or generator(1956?) is in excess of 13.5 volts or the full > output of the charge is not getting to the battery banks but rather going to > the load. What position was your battery selection switch in? Good Hunting, > My Best, Mike > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Mon, April 19, 2010 7:18:11 PM > *Subject:* RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot leave > out any possibilities. > > What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? > > Cheers > Charlie > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > Hi All, > > I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had > a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I > was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing > RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second > problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which > obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 > minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the > engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. > Anyone experience anything like this? > > Allen > > > > >

I had a similar problem with CalGal's old Grey Marine and Alternator. What I discovered is that the alternator was outputting around 19 volts, which was frying my coils. My newer instruments had their own built in voltage regulator. I had to put in a ceramic resistor to decrease the voltage to the coil and other devices. Typically the voltage during charging for a flooded lead acid battery should be @ 14.4v [cid:image003.jpg@01CAE07A.0E75BEF0] Balmar manual From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 7:48 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Interesting that you should ask about the battery selector switch as I forgot to mention that it was not in its normal position. It was set to both where I usually have it set to the first battery. Both batteries are about the same age and relatively new. Both had lots of water when I checked last week. Both sit on a charger when the boat is in the slip. I did measure the battery voltage and it was 12.7 or so, which is a charged battery although not necessarily what I am used to for a charging battery. But I have never measured my voltage while charging and my engine runs at 1200 RPM which probably isn't putting out that much current so that might be normal. I put a voltmeter on the coil but it was a digital voltmeter and jumped around. I have had that experience with digital voltmeters and didn't think to use the analog one until the problem had gone away. At that time, the digital voltmeter still jumped around and the analog voltmeter gave a normal reading but like I said, the engine was running perfectly by then. What I don't understand is if there was a bad ground, one common to the engine and the knot meter, how did the engine start? The current draw for the starter is so much higher than the engine that any high resistance in a ground sufficient to cause troubles for the engine would certainly drop the starting voltage to the point that the engine would not start. Obviously I am missing something as it almost certainly is an electrical problem. I should also mention that I have taken an if it ain't broke don't fix it approach with the wiring on this engine and if you look at it, it looks like it has been in a salt water environment for 50 years. http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=exhaust/engine.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20engine. Allen On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:21 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:ve… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: I think your trimmer is on track with a voltage problem. Since your starter got the engine started, your battery was in the circuit. if this happens again put a voltmeter to work and see if your charge voltage from your alternator or generator(1956?) is in excess of 13.5 volts or the full output of the charge is not getting to the battery banks but rather going to the load. What position was your battery selection switch in? Good Hunting, My Best, Mike From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com>> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 7:18:11 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot leave out any possibilities. What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Hi All, I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. Anyone experience anything like this? Allen

Long term fix was replacing the charging system with a standalone Balmar alternator, with and ARS (Xantex) regulator. The instruments are protected using a Hummingbird capacitor/ voltage regulator power conditioner. The Capacitor supplies power to instruments during starting to keep from blipping the instruments. Systems are monitored using a Link 2000 and a chart recorder (Expedition) on the laptop while underway. dEmO From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 11:10 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem I had a similar problem with CalGal's old Grey Marine and Alternator. What I discovered is that the alternator was outputting around 19 volts, which was frying my coils. My newer instruments had their own built in voltage regulator. I had to put in a ceramic resistor to decrease the voltage to the coil and other devices. Typically the voltage during charging for a flooded lead acid battery should be @ 14.4v [cid:im… [at] 01CAE080.ED143280] Balmar manual From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 7:48 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Interesting that you should ask about the battery selector switch as I forgot to mention that it was not in its normal position. It was set to both where I usually have it set to the first battery. Both batteries are about the same age and relatively new. Both had lots of water when I checked last week. Both sit on a charger when the boat is in the slip. I did measure the battery voltage and it was 12.7 or so, which is a charged battery although not necessarily what I am used to for a charging battery. But I have never measured my voltage while charging and my engine runs at 1200 RPM which probably isn't putting out that much current so that might be normal. I put a voltmeter on the coil but it was a digital voltmeter and jumped around. I have had that experience with digital voltmeters and didn't think to use the analog one until the problem had gone away. At that time, the digital voltmeter still jumped around and the analog voltmeter gave a normal reading but like I said, the engine was running perfectly by then. What I don't understand is if there was a bad ground, one common to the engine and the knot meter, how did the engine start? The current draw for the starter is so much higher than the engine that any high resistance in a ground sufficient to cause troubles for the engine would certainly drop the starting voltage to the point that the engine would not start. Obviously I am missing something as it almost certainly is an electrical problem. I should also mention that I have taken an if it ain't broke don't fix it approach with the wiring on this engine and if you look at it, it looks like it has been in a salt water environment for 50 years. http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=exhaust/engine.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20engine. Allen On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:21 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:ve… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: I think your trimmer is on track with a voltage problem. Since your starter got the engine started, your battery was in the circuit. if this happens again put a voltmeter to work and see if your charge voltage from your alternator or generator(1956?) is in excess of 13.5 volts or the full output of the charge is not getting to the battery banks but rather going to the load. What position was your battery selection switch in? Good Hunting, My Best, Mike From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com>> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 7:18:11 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot leave out any possibilities. What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Hi All, I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. Anyone experience anything like this? Allen

Timm, Did you put this on your gray marine or on your new engine? In any event, my alternator is not putting out excessive voltage based on the battery voltage being 12.7 with the engine running badly. That said, I will check it again when I troubleshoot this problem later this week. Allen On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 12:08 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: > > > Long term fix was replacing the charging system with a standalone Balmar > alternator, with and ARS (Xantex) regulator. > > > > The instruments are protected using a Hummingbird capacitor/ voltage > regulator power conditioner. > > > > The Capacitor supplies power to instruments during starting to keep from > blipping the instruments. > > > > Systems are monitored using a Link 2000 and a chart recorder (Expedition) > on the laptop while underway. > > > > dEmO > > > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *ti… [at] ch2m.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 20, 2010 11:10 AM > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > > > I had a similar problem with CalGal’s old Grey Marine and Alternator. > > > > What I discovered is that the alternator was outputting around 19 volts, > which was frying my coils. > > > > My newer instruments had their own built in voltage regulator. > > > > I had to put in a ceramic resistor to decrease the voltage to the coil and > other devices. > > > > Typically the voltage during charging for a flooded lead acid battery > should be @ 14.4v > > > > > > Balmar manual > > > > > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 20, 2010 7:48 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > > > Interesting that you should ask about the battery selector switch as I > forgot to mention that it was not in its normal position. It was set to > both where I usually have it set to the first battery. Both batteries are > about the same age and relatively new. Both had lots of water when I > checked last week. Both sit on a charger when the boat is in the slip. > > > > I did measure the battery voltage and it was 12.7 or so, which is a charged > battery although not necessarily what I am used to for a charging battery. > But I have never measured my voltage while charging and my engine runs at > 1200 RPM which probably isn't putting out that much current so that might be > normal. I put a voltmeter on the coil but it was a digital voltmeter and > jumped around. I have had that experience with digital voltmeters and > didn't think to use the analog one until the problem had gone away. At that > time, the digital voltmeter still jumped around and the analog voltmeter > gave a normal reading but like I said, the engine was running perfectly by > then. > > > > What I don't understand is if there was a bad ground, one common to the > engine and the knot meter, how did the engine start? The current draw for > the starter is so much higher than the engine that any high resistance in a > ground sufficient to cause troubles for the engine would certainly drop the > starting voltage to the point that the engine would not start. Obviously I > am missing something as it almost certainly is an electrical problem. > > > > I should also mention that I have taken an if it ain't broke don't fix it > approach with the wiring on this engine and if you look at it, it looks like > it has been in a salt water environment for 50 years. > http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=exhaust/engine.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20engine > . > > > > Allen > > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:21 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > I think your trimmer is on track with a voltage problem. Since your > starter got the engine started, your battery was in the circuit. if this > happens again put a voltmeter to work and see if your charge voltage from > your alternator or generator(1956?) is in excess of 13.5 volts or the full > output of the charge is not getting to the battery banks but rather going to > the load. What position was your battery selection switch in? Good Hunting, > > My Best, Mike > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Mon, April 19, 2010 7:18:11 PM > *Subject:* RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > > Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot > leave out any possibilities. > > > > What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? > > > > Cheers > > Charlie > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > Hi All, > > > > I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had > a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I > was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing > RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second > problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which > obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 > minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the > engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. > Anyone experience anything like this? > > > > Allen > > > > > > > > >

Yes - old and new engines, but as I recall it was pretty rube Goldberg on the old engine, as my alternator was driven by a power takeoff shaft. We repowered with a Vetus 47 hp in 2002 and installed yet another "New and improved" set of regulating and charging system, essentially the same devices, but newer models with more features.. Short answer - the stock regulator (coils, springs and contacts) was replaced with an electronic unit that I trusted more. Timm From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 12:22 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Timm, Did you put this on your gray marine or on your new engine? In any event, my alternator is not putting out excessive voltage based on the battery voltage being 12.7 with the engine running badly. That said, I will check it again when I troubleshoot this problem later this week. Allen On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 12:08 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com>> wrote: Long term fix was replacing the charging system with a standalone Balmar alternator, with and ARS (Xantex) regulator. The instruments are protected using a Hummingbird capacitor/ voltage regulator power conditioner. The Capacitor supplies power to instruments during starting to keep from blipping the instruments. Systems are monitored using a Link 2000 and a chart recorder (Expedition) on the laptop while underway. dEmO From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com<mailto:ti… [at] ch2m.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 11:10 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem I had a similar problem with CalGal's old Grey Marine and Alternator. What I discovered is that the alternator was outputting around 19 volts, which was frying my coils. My newer instruments had their own built in voltage regulator. I had to put in a ceramic resistor to decrease the voltage to the coil and other devices. Typically the voltage during charging for a flooded lead acid battery should be @ 14.4v [cid:image001.jpg@01CAE085.1D6D1240] Balmar manual From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 7:48 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Interesting that you should ask about the battery selector switch as I forgot to mention that it was not in its normal position. It was set to both where I usually have it set to the first battery. Both batteries are about the same age and relatively new. Both had lots of water when I checked last week. Both sit on a charger when the boat is in the slip. I did measure the battery voltage and it was 12.7 or so, which is a charged battery although not necessarily what I am used to for a charging battery. But I have never measured my voltage while charging and my engine runs at 1200 RPM which probably isn't putting out that much current so that might be normal. I put a voltmeter on the coil but it was a digital voltmeter and jumped around. I have had that experience with digital voltmeters and didn't think to use the analog one until the problem had gone away. At that time, the digital voltmeter still jumped around and the analog voltmeter gave a normal reading but like I said, the engine was running perfectly by then. What I don't understand is if there was a bad ground, one common to the engine and the knot meter, how did the engine start? The current draw for the starter is so much higher than the engine that any high resistance in a ground sufficient to cause troubles for the engine would certainly drop the starting voltage to the point that the engine would not start. Obviously I am missing something as it almost certainly is an electrical problem. I should also mention that I have taken an if it ain't broke don't fix it approach with the wiring on this engine and if you look at it, it looks like it has been in a salt water environment for 50 years. http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=exhaust/engine.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20engine. Allen On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:21 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:ve… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: I think your trimmer is on track with a voltage problem. Since your starter got the engine started, your battery was in the circuit. if this happens again put a voltmeter to work and see if your charge voltage from your alternator or generator(1956?) is in excess of 13.5 volts or the full output of the charge is not getting to the battery banks but rather going to the load. What position was your battery selection switch in? Good Hunting, My Best, Mike From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com<mailto:hu… [at] bah.com>> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 7:18:11 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot leave out any possibilities. What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Hi All, I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. Anyone experience anything like this? Allen

The starting battery circuit must have been well grounded however the Ignition/ insturment---maybe not-- possibly a separate faulty ground or loose connection somewhere in the system. I agree, if it ain't broke... Still if it happens again and you have time and space to do some hunting you will find it. My Best, Mike From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 7:47:56 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Interesting that you should ask about the battery selector switch as I forgot to mention that it was not in its normal position. It was set to both where I usually have it set to the first battery. Both batteries are about the same age and relatively new. Both had lots of water when I checked last week. Both sit on a charger when the boat is in the slip. I did measure the battery voltage and it was 12.7 or so, which is a charged battery although not necessarily what I am used to for a charging battery. But I have never measured my voltage while charging and my engine runs at 1200 RPM which probably isn't putting out that much current so that might be normal. I put a voltmeter on the coil but it was a digital voltmeter and jumped around. I have had that experience with digital voltmeters and didn't think to use the analog one until the problem had gone away. At that time, the digital voltmeter still jumped around and the analog voltmeter gave a normal reading but like I said, the engine was running perfectly by then. What I don't understand is if there was a bad ground, one common to the engine and the knot meter, how did the engine start? The current draw for the starter is so much higher than the engine that any high resistance in a ground sufficient to cause troubles for the engine would certainly drop the starting voltage to the point that the engine would not start. Obviously I am missing something as it almost certainly is an electrical problem. I should also mention that I have taken an if it ain't broke don't fix it approach with the wiring on this engine and if you look at it, it looks like it has been in a salt water environment for 50 years. http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=exhaust/engine.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20engine. Allen On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:21 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >I think your trimmer is on track with a voltage problem. Since your starter got the engine started, your battery was in the circuit. if this happens again put a voltmeter to work and see if your charge voltage from your alternator or generator(1956?) is in excess of 13.5 volts or the full output of the charge is not getting to the battery banks but rather going to the load. What position was your battery selection switch in? Good Hunting, > My Best, Mike > > > From: "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 7:18:11 PM >Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > > >Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot leave out any possibilities. > >What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? > >Cheers >Charlie > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards >Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Subject: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > >Hi All, > > >I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. Anyone experience anything like this? > > >Allen > > > >

Yes! That must be it. That thought occurred to me yesterday in thinking it through and you have just confirmed my thinking. There would be a large cable to the engine for the starter and I know there is wire up to a ground block that would then be the ground for everything else. I need to remember this is a boat and not a car and that everything doesn't just connect to the metal chassis to get ground! Therefore, it must be a wire from the battery to a point common to the coil and the knot meter. That should not be that hard to find. I will try and find it later this week and will report back. Thanks!!! Allen On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 3:53 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > The starting battery circuit must have been well grounded however the > Ignition/ insturment---maybe not-- possibly a separate faulty ground or > loose connection somewhere in the system. I agree, if it ain't broke... > Still if it happens again and you have time and space to do some hunting you > will find it. > My Best, Mike > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Tue, April 20, 2010 7:47:56 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > Interesting that you should ask about the battery selector switch as I > forgot to mention that it was not in its normal position. It was set to > both where I usually have it set to the first battery. Both batteries are > about the same age and relatively new. Both had lots of water when I > checked last week. Both sit on a charger when the boat is in the slip. > > I did measure the battery voltage and it was 12.7 or so, which is a charged > battery although not necessarily what I am used to for a charging battery. > But I have never measured my voltage while charging and my engine runs at > 1200 RPM which probably isn't putting out that much current so that might be > normal. I put a voltmeter on the coil but it was a digital voltmeter and > jumped around. I have had that experience with digital voltmeters and > didn't think to use the analog one until the problem had gone away. At that > time, the digital voltmeter still jumped around and the analog voltmeter > gave a normal reading but like I said, the engine was running perfectly by > then. > > What I don't understand is if there was a bad ground, one common to the > engine and the knot meter, how did the engine start? The current draw for > the starter is so much higher than the engine that any high resistance in a > ground sufficient to cause troubles for the engine would certainly drop the > starting voltage to the point that the engine would not start. Obviously I > am missing something as it almost certainly is an electrical problem. > > I should also mention that I have taken an if it ain't broke don't fix it > approach with the wiring on this engine and if you look at it, it looks like > it has been in a salt water environment for 50 years. > http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=exhaust/engine.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20engine > . > > Allen > > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:21 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > >> >> >> I think your trimmer is on track with a voltage problem. Since your >> starter got the engine started, your battery was in the circuit. if this >> happens again put a voltmeter to work and see if your charge voltage from >> your alternator or generator(1956?) is in excess of 13.5 volts or the full >> output of the charge is not getting to the battery banks but rather going to >> the load. What position was your battery selection switch in? Good Hunting, >> My Best, Mike >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* "Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> >> *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> *Sent:* Mon, April 19, 2010 7:18:11 PM >> *Subject:* RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >> >> >> >> Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot >> leave out any possibilities. >> >> What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? >> >> Cheers >> Charlie >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On >> Behalf Of *Allen Edwards >> *Sent:* Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had >> a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I >> was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing >> RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second >> problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which >> obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 >> minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the >> engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. >> Anyone experience anything like this? >> >> Allen >> >> >> >> > > > >

From: "ti… [at] ch2m.com" <ti… [at] ch2m.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 12:08:22 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Long term fix was replacing the charging system with a standalone Balmar alternator, with and ARS (Xantex) regulator. The instruments are protected using a Hummingbird capacitor/ voltage regulator power conditioner. The Capacitor supplies power to instruments during starting to keep from blipping the instruments. Systems are monitored using a Link 2000 and a chart recorder (Expedition) on the laptop while underway. dEmO From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 11:10 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem I had a similar problem with CalGal’s old Grey Marine and Alternator. What I discovered is that the alternator was outputting around 19 volts, which was frying my coils. My newer instruments had their own built in voltage regulator. I had to put in a ceramic resistor to decrease the voltage to the coil and other devices. Typically the voltage during charging for a flooded lead acid battery should be @ 14.4v Balmar manual From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 7:48 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Interesting that you should ask about the battery selector switch as I forgot to mention that it was not in its normal position. It was set to both where I usually have it set to the first battery. Both batteries are about the same age and relatively new. Both had lots of water when I checked last week. Both sit on a charger when the boat is in the slip. I did measure the battery voltage and it was 12.7 or so, which is a charged battery although not necessarily what I am used to for a charging battery. But I have never measured my voltage while charging and my engine runs at 1200 RPM which probably isn't putting out that much current so that might be normal. I put a voltmeter on the coil but it was a digital voltmeter and jumped around. I have had that experience with digital voltmeters and didn't think to use the analog one until the problem had gone away. At that time, the digital voltmeter still jumped around and the analog voltmeter gave a normal reading but like I said, the engine was running perfectly by then. What I don't understand is if there was a bad ground, one common to the engine and the knot meter, how did the engine start? The current draw for the starter is so much higher than the engine that any high resistance in a ground sufficient to cause troubles for the engine would certainly drop the starting voltage to the point that the engine would not start. Obviously I am missing something as it almost certainly is an electrical problem. I should also mention that I have taken an if it ain't broke don't fix it approach with the wiring on this engine and if you look at it, it looks like it has been in a salt water environment for 50 years. http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=exhaust/engine.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20engine. Allen On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:21 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: I think your trimmer is on track with a voltage problem. Since your starter got the engine started, your battery was in the circuit. if this happens again put a voltmeter to work and see if your charge voltage from your alternator or generator(1956?) is in excess of 13.5 volts or the full output of the charge is not getting to the battery banks but rather going to the load. What position was your battery selection switch in? Good Hunting, My Best, Mike From:"Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups..com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 7:18:11 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot leave out any possibilities. What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? Cheers Charlie From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Hi All, I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. Anyone experience anything like this? Allen You might be on to something! My Best, Mike

From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] PaloAltoPhoto.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 12:22:06 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Timm, Did you put this on your gray marine or on your new engine? In any event, my alternator is not putting out excessive voltage based on the battery voltage being 12.7 with the engine running badly. That said, I will check it again when I troubleshoot this problem later this week. Allen On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 12:08 PM, <ti… [at] ch2m.com> wrote: >Long term fix was replacing the charging system with a standalone Balmar alternator, with and ARS (Xantex) regulator. > >The instruments are protected using a Hummingbird capacitor/ voltage regulator power conditioner. > >The Capacitor supplies power to instruments during starting to keep from blipping the instruments. > >Systems are monitored using a Link 2000 and a chart recorder (Expedition) on the laptop while underway. > >dEmO > >From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ti… [at] ch2m.com >Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 11:10 AM > >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > >Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > >I had a similar problem with CalGal’s old Grey Marine and Alternator. > >What I discovered is that the alternator was outputting around 19 volts, which was frying my coils. > >My newer instruments had their own built in voltage regulator. > >I had to put in a ceramic resistor to decrease the voltage to the coil and other devices. > >Typically the voltage during charging for a flooded lead acid battery should be @ 14.4v > > >Balmar manual > > >From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards >Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 7:48 AM >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > >Interesting that you should ask about the battery selector switch as I forgot to mention that it was not in its normal position. It was set to both where I usually have it set to the first battery. Both batteries are about the same age and relatively new. Both had lots of water when I checked last week. Both sit on a charger when the boat is in the slip. > >I did measure the battery voltage and it was 12.7 or so, which is a charged battery although not necessarily what I am used to for a charging battery. But I have never measured my voltage while charging and my engine runs at 1200 RPM which probably isn't putting out that much current so that might be normal. I put a voltmeter on the coil but it was a digital voltmeter and jumped around. I have had that experience with digital voltmeters and didn't think to use the analog one until the problem had gone away. At that time, the digital voltmeter still jumped around and the analog voltmeter gave a normal reading but like I said, the engine was running perfectly by then. > >What I don't understand is if there was a bad ground, one common to the engine and the knot meter, how did the engine start? The current draw for the starter is so much higher than the engine that any high resistance in a ground sufficient to cause troubles for the engine would certainly drop the starting voltage to the point that the engine would not start. Obviously I am missing something as it almost certainly is an electrical problem. > >I should also mention that I have taken an if it ain't broke don't fix it approach with the wiring on this engine and if you look at it, it looks like it has been in a salt water environment for 50 years. http://l-36.com/display_pic.php?pic_name=exhaust/engine.jpg&pic_title=Papoose%20engine. > >Allen >On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:21 AM, mike farrell <ve… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > >I think your trimmer is on track with a voltage problem. Since your starter got the engine started, your battery was in the circuit. if this happens again put a voltmeter to work and see if your charge voltage from your alternator or generator(1956?) is in excess of 13.5 volts or the full output of the charge is not getting to the battery banks but rather going to the load. What position was your battery selection switch in? Good Hunting, > My Best, Mike > > >From:"Husar, Charlie [USA]" <hu… [at] bah.com> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 7:18:11 PM >Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > >Allen, where were you in relation to the Bermuda Triangle? We cannot leave out any possibilities. > >What kind of knotmeter do you have? Is it linked to other instruments? > >Cheers >Charlie > > >From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards >Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Subject: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >Hi All, > >I have the original 1956 gray marine engine in Papoose and yesterday I had a most unique experience. I had two problems that must be related. As I was motoring out of the marina, the engine was running erratically, changing RPM a couple hundred up and down and just not sounding right. The second problem was that the knot meter, a 1960 vintage, read 12 knots, which obviously was impossible as I was probably going 4. This lasted about 15 minutes until we put the sails up. Both problems cleared up when we ran the engine to get back in. My jib trimmer thinks it is a grounding problem. Anyone experience anything like this? > >Allen > > > Ceramic resistor--- Good idea!!!

Coming back from a race tonight the engine alarm went off. I checked the oil pressure and it was OK. Then I checked the exhaust and saw both steam and lots of water. I increased the revs and the alarm quit. My plan is to take the water pump apart and flush the engine. This is a Gary marine rebuilt a year and a half ago. I also felt the head and I could easily put my hand on it, it was not hot. But something was making the steam as when I looked after the alarm went off things looked normal -- no steam. Anyone have any ideas what could be going on? Allen

Check your exhaust setup from that manifold back and and return or anti siphon lines. You could have water coming back from the water lift muffler that is flushing into the head. Now this is a mute point if you don't have a water lift muffler, but from what I know, this is typically the culprit. On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:45 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > > > Coming back from a race tonight the engine alarm went off. I checked the > oil pressure and it was OK. Then I checked the exhaust and saw both steam > and lots of water. I increased the revs and the alarm quit. My plan is to > take the water pump apart and flush the engine. This is a Gary marine > rebuilt a year and a half ago. I also felt the head and I could easily put > my hand on it, it was not hot. But something was making the steam as when > I looked after the alarm went off things looked normal -- no steam. > > Anyone have any ideas what could be going on? > > Allen > > > > -- /ch

Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. /ch On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Chris H <ch… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > Check your exhaust setup from that manifold back and and return or anti > siphon lines. You could have water coming back from the water lift muffler > that is flushing into the head. Now this is a mute point if you don't have > a water lift muffler, but from what I know, this is typically the culprit. > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:45 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > >> >> >> Coming back from a race tonight the engine alarm went off. I checked >> the oil pressure and it was OK. Then I checked the exhaust and saw both >> steam and lots of water. I increased the revs and the alarm quit. My plan >> is to take the water pump apart and flush the engine. This is a Gary >> marine rebuilt a year and a half ago. I also felt the head and I could >> easily put my hand on it, it was not hot. But something was making the >> steam as when I looked after the alarm went off things looked normal -- no >> steam. >> >> Anyone have any ideas what could be going on? >> >> Allen >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > /ch > > -- /ch

I would guess the raw water impeller is on it's last legs or the strainer is partially clogged. Double check the coolant level as well. Ours (Perkins 4.108) is very sensitive to having the coolant level all the way to the top. Greg From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:45 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Coming back from a race tonight the engine alarm went off. I checked the oil pressure and it was OK. Then I checked the exhaust and saw both steam and lots of water. I increased the revs and the alarm quit. My plan is to take the water pump apart and flush the engine. This is a Gary marine rebuilt a year and a half ago. I also felt the head and I could easily put my hand on it, it was not hot. But something was making the steam as when I looked after the alarm went off things looked normal -- no steam. Anyone have any ideas what could be going on? Allen

haust hose replaced when engine rebuilt? inside layer of exhaust howe can crack, delaminate, and create flaps which may/will get in the way of flow.. The hose looks great on the outside, but... Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: al… [at] gmail.com Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 23:45:43 -0700 Subject: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Coming back from a race tonight the engine alarm went off. I checked the oil pressure and it was OK. Then I checked the exhaust and saw both steam and lots of water. I increased the revs and the alarm quit. My plan is to take the water pump apart and flush the engine. This is a Gary marine rebuilt a year and a half ago. I also felt the head and I could easily put my hand on it, it was not hot. But something was making the steam as when I looked after the alarm went off things looked normal -- no steam. Anyone have any ideas what could be going on? Allen

bad typing and no spell check! Reggie To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: my… [at] hotmail.com Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 07:44:31 -0600 Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem haust hose replaced when engine rebuilt? inside layer of exhaust howe can crack, delaminate, and create flaps which may/will get in the way of flow.. The hose looks great on the outside, but... Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: al… [at] gmail.com Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 23:45:43 -0700 Subject: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Coming back from a race tonight the engine alarm went off. I checked the oil pressure and it was OK. Then I checked the exhaust and saw both steam and lots of water. I increased the revs and the alarm quit. My plan is to take the water pump apart and flush the engine. This is a Gary marine rebuilt a year and a half ago. I also felt the head and I could easily put my hand on it, it was not hot. But something was making the steam as when I looked after the alarm went off things looked normal -- no steam. Anyone have any ideas what could be going on? Allen

It is a raw water cooled engine. As it has been fine for over a year I am thinking wondering what was different this time. Thanks to a chat with Chris123 I am thinking it was something like this: 1) Start the engine at low RPM. Forgot to check stern for flow. (Mistake one and two) 2) Pump did not have flow as it needs a little kick of RPM to prime it 3) Overheat and alarm 4) Checked oil pressure and increased RPM creating flow 5) Check stern and see flow and steam 6) Check head which had just been cooled by the sea water now flowing through it. But I don't really remember the sequence of events, when I increased the RPM and when I checked the exhaust. This I guess is a best case explanation so I hope it is correct. The only problem is that if the head overheated, I would think it would have been at least as hot as the engine is when warmed up and it was not. In the past I have had trouble with pumps not drawing prime, particularly pumps from this rebuilder. I think I mentioned in another thread that I had been using Depco pumps but with the rebuild that is no longer the case. Increasing the RPM at start, which I typically do, helps to get prime. They say that failures are usually a combination of things, not just one. If it happened like I am saying, it would be a combination of not giving the engine enough RPM at start and not checking the stern for water. I usually do both of these things. Allen On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:46 AM, r good <my… [at] hotmail.com> wrote: > ** > > > bad typing and no spell check! > Reggie > > ------------------------------ > To: ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > From: my… [at] hotmail.com > Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 07:44:31 -0600 > Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > haust hose replaced when engine rebuilt? inside layer of exhaust howe > can crack, delaminate, and create flaps which may/will get in the way of > flow.. The hose looks great on the outside, but... > Reggie > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > From: al… [at] gmail.com > Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 23:45:43 -0700 > Subject: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > Coming back from a race tonight the engine alarm went off. I checked > the oil pressure and it was OK. Then I checked the exhaust and saw both > steam and lots of water. I increased the revs and the alarm quit. My plan > is to take the water pump apart and flush the engine. This is a Gary > marine rebuilt a year and a half ago. I also felt the head and I could > easily put my hand on it, it was not hot. But something was making the > steam as when I looked after the alarm went off things looked normal -- no > steam. > > Anyone have any ideas what could be going on? > > Allen > > > > > >

On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: > > > Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. > If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell

I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. From: Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. >OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell

I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. Allen On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. > > *From:* Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > ** > > On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: > > Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. > If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. > > **OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head > gasket purposes? ****Chris Campbell**** > **** > > >

Never used a gasket sealer on auto or boat. Have annealed a copper head gasket with good success on an old Hudson Hornet. Wilkie On Jul 25, 2013, at 7:58 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > > I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. > > Allen > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > > > I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. > > From: Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: >> Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. > OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell > > > > >

On 7/25/2013 10:53 AM, Greg vanDalen wrote: > > > I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. Me too. That's why I asked. My experience with automotive work was mostly in the days when engines were cast iron. Now they seem to be aluminum and plastic (and head gasket leakage seems to be a common problem). Perhaps times and conditions have changed. My Ford Ranger 4-cyl. pickup has an aluminum engine with double overhead cams, 4 valves/cylinder, and fuel injection. When I was a kid, those were specs for an exotic racing engine. Now it's a truck engine. Things change. Chris Campbell > > > *From:* Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: >> Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the >> head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good >> gasket sealer. > OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for > head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell > > >

I have not used anything on "new" head gaskets. I have worked with a few "old time" mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket area. Ymmv john From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. Allen On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. From: Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell

Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump and the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine at low RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. Goosed the throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated my problem and know what happened. I am going to have to assume that the hot switch comes on before there is damage to anything. I guess I will know if there ends up being water in the oil or I get hard starting problems when hot. These are signs of a blown head gasket. I certainly see no reason to pull the head given that I did not run the engine for very long with the buzzer on. Probably 15 seconds. Allen On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:06 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: > ** > > > I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a few > “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran out of > the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece of > copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high > compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket > area.**** > > ** ** > > Ymmv**** > > ** ** > > john**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem**** > > ** ** > > **** > > I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > ** ** > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant.**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > **** > > **** > > On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote:**** > > Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If > you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. *** > * > > OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head > gasket purposes? Chris Campbell**** > > ** ** > > **** > > >

Allen, A friend of mine had a similar problem with his genset. After lots of troubleshooting, it turned out that although the impellor looked fine, it was the culprit. The rubber impellor blades had become stiff to the point, that unless the engine was at higher RPM, that it lost prime. Michael From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump and the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine at low RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. Goosed the throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated my problem and know what happened. I am going to have to assume that the hot switch comes on before there is damage to anything. I guess I will know if there ends up being water in the oil or I get hard starting problems when hot. These are signs of a blown head gasket. I certainly see no reason to pull the head given that I did not run the engine for very long with the buzzer on. Probably 15 seconds. Allen On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:06 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: > >I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket area. > >Ymmv > >john > >From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards >Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > >I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. > >Allen > >On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > >I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. > >From:Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> > >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > >On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: >Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. >OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell >

OK, mates, solve my head gasket mystery. It's a marine engine, an old 1962 Volvo 80 hp 4-cyl. gas engine on an early Volvo-Penta Aquamatic I/O. For some reason, it leaks oil from an oil passage at the back of the block. I've changed the head gasket multiple times. I've had the head planed for flatness. I've applied a gasket sealer around the oil passage (the old black Permatex goo). Nothing works. There's no evidence of a crack or casting problem in the block. The oil passage is right at the back of the block, close to the edge. Oil pressure is normal. One of Campbell's Laws is that when you want something to flow freely, it will plug up when you're not looking, but when you want something not to flow, it will always leak. All sailors learn the truth of that one when sitting below in the boat during a rain storm. Chris Campbell On 7/25/2013 6:06 PM, john raxter wrote: > > > I have not used anything on "new" head gaskets. I have worked with a > few "old time" mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they > ran out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use > a piece of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help > in high compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to > small gasket area. > > Ymmv > > john > > *From:*Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > *On Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. > > Allen > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com > <mailto:no… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: > > I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. > > *From:*Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org <mailto:cc… [at] lsnm.org>> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: > > Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the > head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good > gasket sealer. > > OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for > head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell > > > >

I have had this problem with several new pumps and this pump is less than 2 years old so I am not worried but thanks for the heads up. The pump or its hose is above the waterline apparently so it loses prime when the engine is off. Once it has prime, it can idol down just fine. I re-routed the inlet hose to lower it about 2 inches. That might help. I could get it another inch down by changing fittings to the pump and adding a 45 degree bend and will probably do that just to see if that completely solves the problem. I guess I will test to see where the water level really is before going to the trouble. Allen On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 7:50 AM, Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > Allen, > > A friend of mine had a similar problem with his genset. After lots of > troubleshooting, it turned out that although the impellor looked fine, it > was the culprit. The rubber impellor blades had become stiff to the point, > that unless the engine was at higher RPM, that it lost prime. > > Michael > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2013 10:32 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump and > the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine at low > RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. Goosed the > throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated my problem and > know what happened. I am going to have to assume that the hot switch comes > on before there is damage to anything. I guess I will know if there ends > up being water in the oil or I get hard starting problems when hot. These > are signs of a blown head gasket. I certainly see no reason to pull the > head given that I did not run the engine for very long with the buzzer on. > Probably 15 seconds. > > Allen > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:06 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: > > ** > > I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a > few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran > out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece > of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high > compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket > area.**** > ** ** > Ymmv**** > ** ** > john**** > ** ** > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem**** > ** ** > **** > I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex.**** > ** ** > Allen**** > ** ** > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote:**** > **** > I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant.**** > ** ** > *From:* Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > **** > **** > On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote:**** > > Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If > you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. *** > * > > OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head > gasket purposes? Chris Campbell**** > ** ** > **** > > > > > >

On 7/26/2013 10:32 AM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > > Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump > and the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine > at low RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. > Goosed the throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated > my problem and know what happened. I am going to have to assume that > the hot switch comes on before there is damage to anything. I guess I > will know if there ends up being water in the oil or I get hard > starting problems when hot. These are signs of a blown head gasket. > I certainly see no reason to pull the head given that I did not run > the engine for very long with the buzzer on. Probably 15 seconds. Maybe the impeller looks fine, but if it frequently runs initially in a dry condition, isn't it likely to wear excessively? Chris Campbell

Allen, Yeah, my friend has a Hunter 42. The genset mounts above the auxillary diesel. So, the genset is well above the waterline. He initially suspected that it was a backflow preventer valve between the through hull and the raw water pump. Michael From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) I have had this problem with several new pumps and this pump is less than 2 years old so I am not worried but thanks for the heads up. The pump or its hose is above the waterline apparently so it loses prime when the engine is off. Once it has prime, it can idol down just fine. I re-routed the inlet hose to lower it about 2 inches. That might help. I could get it another inch down by changing fittings to the pump and adding a 45 degree bend and will probably do that just to see if that completely solves the problem. I guess I will test to see where the water level really is before going to the trouble. Allen On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 7:50 AM, Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > >Allen, > > >A friend of mine had a similar problem with his genset. After lots of troubleshooting, it turned out that although the impellor looked fine, it was the culprit. The rubber impellor blades had become stiff to the point, that unless the engine was at higher RPM, that it lost prime. > > >Michael > > > >________________________________ > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:32 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > >Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump and the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine at low RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. Goosed the throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated my problem and know what happened. I am going to have to assume that the hot switch comes on before there is damage to anything. I guess I will know if there ends up being water in the oil or I get hard starting problems when hot. These are signs of a blown head gasket. I certainly see no reason to pull the head given that I did not run the engine for very long with the buzzer on. Probably 15 seconds. > > >Allen > > > >On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:06 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: > > >> >>I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket area. >> >>Ymmv >> >>john >> >>From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards >>Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >> >> >>I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. >> >>Allen >> >>On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. >> >>From:Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> >> >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >> >>On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: >>Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. >>OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell >> > > >

I'm of the mindset that as long as you have the water pump apart, replace the impeller and keep the old one as an emergency spare . . . but since you don't cruise or motor long distances I'd just trash it. Paul From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 10:53 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) Allen, A friend of mine had a similar problem with his genset. After lots of troubleshooting, it turned out that although the impellor looked fine, it was the culprit. The rubber impellor blades had become stiff to the point, that unless the engine was at higher RPM, that it lost prime. Michael From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump and the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine at low RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. Goosed the throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated my problem and know what happened. I am going to have to assume that the hot switch comes on before there is damage to anything. I guess I will know if there ends up being water in the oil or I get hard starting problems when hot. These are signs of a blown head gasket. I certainly see no reason to pull the head given that I did not run the engine for very long with the buzzer on. Probably 15 seconds. Allen On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:06 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket area. Ymmv john From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. Allen On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. From: Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell

Check the block for flatness. Also, You may be missing a part, such as a small nipple and / or O ring / copper crush ring that is supposed to be in the block or head. Check the parts book to confirm. *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* On 7/26/2013 10:59 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: > > > OK, mates, solve my head gasket mystery. It's a marine engine, an old > 1962 Volvo 80 hp 4-cyl. gas engine on an early Volvo-Penta Aquamatic I/O. > > For some reason, it leaks oil from an oil passage at the back of the > block. I've changed the head gasket multiple times. I've had the > head planed for flatness. I've applied a gasket sealer around the oil > passage (the old black Permatex goo). Nothing works. There's no > evidence of a crack or casting problem in the block. The oil passage > is right at the back of the block, close to the edge. Oil pressure is > normal. > > One of Campbell's Laws is that when you want something to flow freely, > it will plug up when you're not looking, but when you want something > not to flow, it will always leak. All sailors learn the truth of that > one when sitting below in the boat during a rain storm. > > Chris Campbell > > On 7/25/2013 6:06 PM, john raxter wrote: >> >> I have not used anything on "new" head gaskets. I have worked with a >> few "old time" mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they >> ran out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics >> use a piece of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to >> help in high compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks >> due to small gasket area. >> >> Ymmv >> >> john >> >> *From:*Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Allen Edwards >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >> >> I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. >> >> Allen >> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com >> <mailto:no… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: >> >> I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. >> >> *From:*Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org <mailto:cc… [at] lsnm.org>> >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >> >> On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: >> >> Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the >> head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good >> gasket sealer. >> >> OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for >> head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell >> > > > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > Version: 2013.0.3349 / Virus Database: 3209/6522 - Release Date: 07/26/13 > -- *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184*

I think my first impeller went 15 years or so before I checked it. I changed it and kept it as a spare. I have never seen a bad impeller in 24 years of owning the boat. It looked fine so I just put the cover back on. Probably should have changed it out like you said as I have several. Allen On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:18 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > ** > > > I'm of the mindset that as long as you have the water pump apart, replace > the impeller and keep the old one as an emergency spare . . . but since you > don't cruise or motor long distances I'd just trash it. > > Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 10:53 am > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) > > > Allen, > > A friend of mine had a similar problem with his genset. After lots of > troubleshooting, it turned out that although the impellor looked fine, it > was the culprit. The rubber impellor blades had become stiff to the point, > that unless the engine was at higher RPM, that it lost prime. > > Michael > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2013 10:32 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump and > the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine at low > RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. Goosed the > throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated my problem and > know what happened. I am going to have to assume that the hot switch comes > on before there is damage to anything. I guess I will know if there ends > up being water in the oil or I get hard starting problems when hot. These > are signs of a blown head gasket. I certainly see no reason to pull the > head given that I did not run the engine for very long with the buzzer on. > Probably 15 seconds. > > Allen > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:06 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: > > ** > > I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a > few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran > out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece > of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high > compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket > area.**** > ** ** > Ymmv**** > ** ** > john**** > ** ** > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem**** > ** ** > **** > I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex.**** > ** ** > Allen**** > ** ** > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote:**** > **** > I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant.**** > ** ** > *From:* Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > **** > **** > On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote:**** > > Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. > If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. > **** > > OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head > gasket purposes? Chris Campbell**** > ** ** > **** > > > > > >

On 7/26/2013 11:26 AM, Joe DeMers wrote: > > > Check the block for flatness. > > Also, You may be missing a part, such as a small nipple and / or O > ring / copper crush ring that is supposed to be in the block or head. > Check the parts book to confirm. Thanks, Joe. There's nothing shown in the parts book but I had thought about adding a little O-ring inside the gasket's hole. Chris Campbell

When I was a kid building race engines I use to use 3-M heavy duty weather strip adhesive as a head gasket sealant. I have no idea if that stuff is either still made or still the same but the tube I see when I Google it looks similar. The downside was that it took a 6 foot 1 inch steel bar to get enough leverage to get the head off once you used it. I think Ford recommended it as a head gasket sealant and their heads were near impossible to remove, that I am sure of. Allen On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: > ** > > > ** Check the block for flatness. > > Also, You may be missing a part, such as a small nipple and / or O ring / > copper crush ring that is supposed to be in the block or head. Check the > parts book to confirm. > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > On 7/26/2013 10:59 AM, Chris Campbell wrote: > > > > OK, mates, solve my head gasket mystery. It's a marine engine, an old > 1962 Volvo 80 hp 4-cyl. gas engine on an early Volvo-Penta Aquamatic I/O. > > For some reason, it leaks oil from an oil passage at the back of the > block. I've changed the head gasket multiple times. I've had the head > planed for flatness. I've applied a gasket sealer around the oil passage > (the old black Permatex goo). Nothing works. There's no evidence of a > crack or casting problem in the block. The oil passage is right at the > back of the block, close to the edge. Oil pressure is normal. > > One of Campbell's Laws is that when you want something to flow freely, it > will plug up when you're not looking, but when you want something not to > flow, it will always leak. All sailors learn the truth of that one when > sitting below in the boat during a rain storm. > > Chris Campbell > > On 7/25/2013 6:06 PM, john raxter wrote: > > I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a > few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran > out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece > of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high > compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket > area. > > > > Ymmv > > > > john > > > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] > *On Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > > > I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. > > > > Allen > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. > > > > *From:* Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: > > Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. > If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. > > OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head > gasket purposes? Chris Campbell > > > > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3349 / Virus Database: 3209/6522 - Release Date: 07/26/13 > > > -- > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > >

Speaking of impellors... Does anyone here know how long impellors generally last? Only once have I found a partially broken impellor blade during maintenance. Since we take Magic across the gulfstream to the Bahamas, I change the impellor prior to departure. Michael From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) I think my first impeller went 15 years or so before I checked it. I changed it and kept it as a spare. I have never seen a bad impeller in 24 years of owning the boat. It looked fine so I just put the cover back on. Probably should have changed it out like you said as I have several. Allen On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:18 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > >I'm of the mindset that as long as you have the water pump apart, replace the impeller and keep the old one as an emergency spare . . . but since you don't cruise or motor long distances I'd just trash it. >Paul >-----Original Message----- >From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> >To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 10:53 am >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) > > > >Allen, > > >A friend of mine had a similar problem with his genset. After lots of troubleshooting, it turned out that although the impellor looked fine, it was the culprit. The rubber impellor blades had become stiff to the point, that unless the engine was at higher RPM, that it lost prime. > > >Michael > > > >________________________________ > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:32 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > >Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump and the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine at low RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. Goosed the throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated my problem and know what happened. I am going to have to assume that the hot switch comes on before there is damage to anything. I guess I will know if there ends up being water in the oil or I get hard starting problems when hot. These are signs of a blown head gasket. I certainly see no reason to pull the head given that I did not run the engine for very long with the buzzer on. Probably 15 seconds. > > >Allen > > > >On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:06 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: > > >> >>I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket area. >> >>Ymmv >> >>john >> >>From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards >>Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >> >> >>I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. >> >>Allen >> >>On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. >> >>From:Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> >> >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >> >>On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: >>Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. >>OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell >> > > >

On 7/26/2013 11:52 AM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > > When I was a kid building race engines I use to use 3-M heavy duty > weather strip adhesive as a head gasket sealant. I have no idea if > that stuff is either still made or still the same but the tube I see > when I Google it looks similar. The downside was that it took a 6 > foot 1 inch steel bar to get enough leverage to get the head off once > you used it. I think Ford recommended it as a head gasket sealant and > their heads were near impossible to remove, that I am sure of. Maybe 3M 5200 would work. Then the head would be permanently affixed and even death would not part it. Chris Campbell

On 7/26/2013 11:53 AM, Michael D wrote: > > > Speaking of impellors... Does anyone here know how long impellors > generally last? Only once have I found a partially broken impellor > blade during maintenance. I've seen impellers that have cracked blades. It may be because here in fresh water land, boats sit unused for 6 or so months per year. That means the blades in the squeeze part of the pump housing are flexed a lot for a long period. I have also, in my younger and stupider days, started engines and run them briefly without cooling water when doing maintenance and repair. Once I got distracted until I smelled burning rubber. Oops. I think that impellers are like O-rings--a bit of wear on the round portions can lead to a decrease in efficiency. Running dry for even a little while can accelerate wear. Chris Campbell > >

One O.B. dealer insisted you should change impellers annually, another said, since in CA we use our motors year round, once in three years is safe. I ran my O.B. for six plus years till one day the motor sounded funny and died. Re started and it died again. I check and noticed that there was no water coming out the bleed tube. Ooops! Turns out one blade had snapped and the broken piece had blocked the outlet opening of the pump. So, I'd say, beyond five years is pushing your luck. The seller had claimed the impeller had been changed within a year since I'd bought the boat. Now, I used the motor quite a lot, regularly, going out to starting lines, or motoring up the coast. So, I guess you have to juggle the factors. I was lucky and I don't think I did any permanent damage to the motor...I think. Hmm. Now that I think the O.B. is about due for a new impeller. Or can I push it a bit more? It may be a case of a penny of care is worth a pound of cure. Jerry From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Speaking of impellors... Does anyone here know how long impellors generally last? Only once have I found a partially broken impellor blade during maintenance. Since we take Magic across the gulfstream to the Bahamas, I change the impellor prior to departure. Michael From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) I think my first impeller went 15 years or so before I checked it. I changed it and kept it as a spare. I have never seen a bad impeller in 24 years of owning the boat. It looked fine so I just put the cover back on. Probably should have changed it out like you said as I have several. Allen On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:18 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > >I'm of the mindset that as long as you have the water pump apart, replace the impeller and keep the old one as an emergency spare . . . but since you don't cruise or motor long distances I'd just trash it. >Paul >-----Original Message----- >From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> >To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 10:53 am >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) > > > >Allen, > > >A friend of mine had a similar problem with his genset. After lots of troubleshooting, it turned out that although the impellor looked fine, it was the culprit. The rubber impellor blades had become stiff to the point, that unless the engine was at higher RPM, that it lost prime. > > >Michael > > > >________________________________ > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:32 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > >Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump and the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine at low RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. Goosed the throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated my problem and know what happened. I am going to have to assume that the hot switch comes on before there is damage to anything. I guess I will know if there ends up being water in the oil or I get hard starting problems when hot. These are signs of a blown head gasket. I certainly see no reason to pull the head given that I did not run the engine for very long with the buzzer on. Probably 15 seconds. > > >Allen > > > >On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:06 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: > > >> >>I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket area. >> >>Ymmv >> >>john >> >>From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards >>Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >> >> >>I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. >> >>Allen >> >>On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. >> >>From:Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> >> >>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >> >>On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: >>Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. >>OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell >> > > >

I would guess I put 25 hours max on my engine in a year. I will check the hour gauge next week to know for sure. Really, the question should be how many hours on an impeller, not years. Allen On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > One O.B. dealer insisted you should change impellers annually, another > said, since in CA we use our motors year round, once in three years is > safe. I ran my O.B. for six plus years till one day the motor sounded funny > and died. Re started and it died again. I check and noticed that there was > no water coming out the bleed tube. Ooops! Turns out one blade had snapped > and the broken piece had blocked the outlet opening of the pump. So, I'd > say, beyond five years is pushing your luck. The seller had claimed the > impeller had been changed within a year since I'd bought the boat. Now, I > used the motor quite a lot, regularly, going out to starting lines, or > motoring up the coast. So, I guess you have to juggle the factors. I was > lucky and I don't think I did any permanent damage to the motor...I think. > Hmm. Now that I think the O.B. is about due for a new impeller. Or can I > push it a bit more? It may be a case of a penny of care is worth a pound of > cure. > Jerry > ------------------------------ > *From:* Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2013 8:53 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > Speaking of impellors... Does anyone here know how long impellors > generally last? Only once have I found a partially broken impellor blade > during maintenance. > > Since we take Magic across the gulfstream to the Bahamas, I change the > impellor prior to departure. > > Michael > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2013 11:44 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) > > > I think my first impeller went 15 years or so before I checked it. I > changed it and kept it as a spare. I have never seen a bad impeller in 24 > years of owning the boat. It looked fine so I just put the cover back on. > Probably should have changed it out like you said as I have several. > > Allen > > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:18 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > > ** > > I'm of the mindset that as long as you have the water pump apart, > replace the impeller and keep the old one as an emergency spare . . . but > since you don't cruise or motor long distances I'd just trash it. > > Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 10:53 am > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) > > > Allen, > > A friend of mine had a similar problem with his genset. After lots of > troubleshooting, it turned out that although the impellor looked fine, it > was the culprit. The rubber impellor blades had become stiff to the point, > that unless the engine was at higher RPM, that it lost prime. > > Michael > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2013 10:32 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump and > the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine at low > RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. Goosed the > throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated my problem and > know what happened. I am going to have to assume that the hot switch comes > on before there is damage to anything. I guess I will know if there ends > up being water in the oil or I get hard starting problems when hot. These > are signs of a blown head gasket. I certainly see no reason to pull the > head given that I did not run the engine for very long with the buzzer on. > Probably 15 seconds. > > Allen > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:06 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: > > ** > > I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a > few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran > out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece > of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high > compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket > area.**** > ** ** > Ymmv**** > ** ** > john**** > ** ** > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem**** > ** ** > **** > I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex.**** > ** ** > Allen**** > ** ** > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote:**** > **** > I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant.**** > ** ** > *From:* Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > **** > **** > On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote:**** > > Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. > If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. > **** > > OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head > gasket purposes? Chris Campbell**** > ** ** > **** > > > > > > > > > > >

Dunno about that Allen as when the engine is not in use the impeller has one or two blades permanently bent over and when not in use some pumps may dry out. Bottom line is there is stress on the impeller even when not in use. Paul From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, Jul 27, 2013 9:26 pm Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem I would guess I put 25 hours max on my engine in a year. I will check the hour gauge next week to know for sure. Really, the question should be how many hours on an impeller, not years. Allen On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: One O.B. dealer insisted you should change impellers annually, another said, since in CA we use our motors year round, once in three years is safe. I ran my O.B. for six plus years till one day the motor sounded funny and died. Re started and it died again. I check and noticed that there was no water coming out the bleed tube. Ooops! Turns out one blade had snapped and the broken piece had blocked the outlet opening of the pump. So, I'd say, beyond five years is pushing your luck. The seller had claimed the impeller had been changed within a year since I'd bought the boat. Now, I used the motor quite a lot, regularly, going out to starting lines, or motoring up the coast. So, I guess you have to juggle the factors. I was lucky and I don't think I did any permanent damage to the motor...I think. Hmm. Now that I think the O.B. is about due for a new impeller. Or can I push it a bit more? It may be a case of a penny of care is worth a pound of cure. Jerry From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Speaking of impellors... Does anyone here know how long impellors generally last? Only once have I found a partially broken impellor blade during maintenance. Since we take Magic across the gulfstream to the Bahamas, I change the impellor prior to departure. Michael From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) I think my first impeller went 15 years or so before I checked it. I changed it and kept it as a spare. I have never seen a bad impeller in 24 years of owning the boat. It looked fine so I just put the cover back on. Probably should have changed it out like you said as I have several. Allen On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:18 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: I'm of the mindset that as long as you have the water pump apart, replace the impeller and keep the old one as an emergency spare . . . but since you don't cruise or motor long distances I'd just trash it. Paul From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 10:53 am Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) Allen, A friend of mine had a similar problem with his genset. After lots of troubleshooting, it turned out that although the impellor looked fine, it was the culprit. The rubber impellor blades had become stiff to the point, that unless the engine was at higher RPM, that it lost prime. Michael From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump and the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine at low RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. Goosed the throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated my problem and know what happened. I am going to have to assume that the hot switch comes on before there is damage to anything. I guess I will know if there ends up being water in the oil or I get hard starting problems when hot. These are signs of a blown head gasket. I certainly see no reason to pull the head given that I did not run the engine for very long with the buzzer on. Probably 15 seconds. Allen On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:06 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket area. Ymmv john From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. Allen On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. From: Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell

Allen, the O.B. Mechanics claim that if the impeller sits for a long time it takes a 'set' with respect to it's position in the housing..at least, that's what they claim. One mentioned that he'd change an impeller on a new OB if it had been sitting on the shelf for a long time. I know rubber, if compressed as in, under a hose clamp, or expanded, as, under pressure for a long time in a solar panel connector, will tend to stay in that position...permanently. I would expect a new impeller sitting in a box would not have that problem, unless some one stuck an old impeller back in a new rebuild. Hmm? Might be worth checking it out. Jerry From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem I would guess I put 25 hours max on my engine in a year. I will check the hour gauge next week to know for sure. Really, the question should be how many hours on an impeller, not years. Allen On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > >One O.B. dealer insisted you should change impellers annually, another said, since in CA we use our motors year round, once in three years is safe. I ran my O.B. for six plus years till one day the motor sounded funny and died. Re started and it died again. I check and noticed that there was no water coming out the bleed tube. Ooops! Turns out one blade had snapped and the broken piece had blocked the outlet opening of the pump. So, I'd say, beyond five years is pushing your luck. The seller had claimed the impeller had been changed within a year since I'd bought the boat. Now, I used the motor quite a lot, regularly, going out to starting lines, or motoring up the coast. So, I guess you have to juggle the factors. I was lucky and I don't think I did any permanent damage to the motor...I think. >Hmm. Now that I think the O.B. is about due for a new impeller. Or can I push it a bit more? It may be a case of a penny of care is worth a pound of cure. > >Jerry > > >________________________________ > From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 8:53 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > >Speaking of impellors... Does anyone here know how long impellors generally last? Only once have I found a partially broken impellor blade during maintenance. > > > >Since we take Magic across the gulfstream to the Bahamas, I change the impellor prior to departure. > > >Michael > > > > >________________________________ > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 11:44 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) > > > > >I think my first impeller went 15 years or so before I checked it. I changed it and kept it as a spare. I have never seen a bad impeller in 24 years of owning the boat. It looked fine so I just put the cover back on. Probably should have changed it out like you said as I have several. > > >Allen > > > >On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:18 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > > >> >>I'm of the mindset that as long as you have the water pump apart, replace the impeller and keep the old one as an emergency spare . . . but since you don't cruise or motor long distances I'd just trash it. >>Paul >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> >>To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 10:53 am >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) >> >> >> >>Allen, >> >> >>A friend of mine had a similar problem with his genset. After lots of troubleshooting, it turned out that although the impellor looked fine, it was the culprit. The rubber impellor blades had become stiff to the point, that unless the engine was at higher RPM, that it lost prime. >> >> >>Michael >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:32 AM >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >> >> >> >> >>Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump and the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine at low RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. Goosed the throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated my problem and know what happened. I am going to have to assume that the hot switch comes on before there is damage to anything. I guess I will know if there ends up being water in the oil or I get hard starting problems when hot. These are signs of a blown head gasket. I certainly see no reason to pull the head given that I did not run the engine for very long with the buzzer on. Probably 15 seconds. >> >> >>Allen >> >> >> >>On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:06 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: >> >> >>> >>>I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket area. >>> >>>Ymmv >>> >>>john >>> >>>From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards >>>Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>> >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >>> >>> >>>I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. >>> >>>Allen >>> >>>On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. >>> >>>From:Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> >>> >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >>> >>>On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: >>>Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. >>>OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell >>> >> >> >> > > > > >

Paul, You are right about stress. I pulled my impeller this spring, and it had stress cracks on one blade, and it was only a couple of years old. I got lazy last fall and didn't pull it for winter storage. So I replaced it. This fall I'll remove it. I have an A4 with the quick cover plate, so it's easy. I once lost a blade into the outlet port; really cuts down the flow, the engine will still overheat with a new impeller. Find that blade! It can't go anywhere else. David Dobbs CAL29 411 From: "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem Dunno about that Allen as when the engine is not in use the impeller has one or two blades permanently bent over and when not in use some pumps may dry out. Bottom line is there is stress on the impeller even when not in use. Paul From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, Jul 27, 2013 9:26 pm Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem I would guess I put 25 hours max on my engine in a year. I will check the hour gauge next week to know for sure. Really, the question should be how many hours on an impeller, not years. Allen On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > >One O.B. dealer insisted you should change impellers annually, another said, since in CA we use our motors year round, once in three years is safe. I ran my O.B. for six plus years till one day the motor sounded funny and died. Re started and it died again. I check and noticed that there was no water coming out the bleed tube. Ooops! Turns out one blade had snapped and the broken piece had blocked the outlet opening of the pump. So, I'd say, beyond five years is pushing your luck. The seller had claimed the impeller had been changed within a year since I'd bought the boat. Now, I used the motor quite a lot, regularly, going out to starting lines, or motoring up the coast. So, I guess you have to juggle the factors. I was lucky and I don't think I did any permanent damage to the motor...I think. >Hmm. Now that I think the O.B. is about due for a new impeller. Or can I push it a bit more? It may be a case of a penny of care is worth a pound of cure. > >Jerry > > >________________________________ > From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 8:53 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > > >Speaking of impellors... Does anyone here know how long impellors generally last? Only once have I found a partially broken impellor blade during maintenance. > > > >Since we take Magic across the gulfstream to the Bahamas, I change the impellor prior to departure. > > >Michael > > > > >________________________________ > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 11:44 AM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) > > > > >I think my first impeller went 15 years or so before I checked it. I changed it and kept it as a spare. I have never seen a bad impeller in 24 years of owning the boat. It looked fine so I just put the cover back on. Probably should have changed it out like you said as I have several. > > >Allen > > > >On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:18 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > > >> >>I'm of the mindset that as long as you have the water pump apart, replace the impeller and keep the old one as an emergency spare . . . but since you don't cruise or motor long distances I'd just trash it. >>Paul >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> >>To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 10:53 am >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) >> >> >> >>Allen, >> >> >>A friend of mine had a similar problem with his genset. After lots of troubleshooting, it turned out that although the impellor looked fine, it was the culprit. The rubber impellor blades had become stiff to the point, that unless the engine was at higher RPM, that it lost prime. >> >> >>Michael >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:32 AM >>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >> >> >> >> >>Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump and the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine at low RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. Goosed the throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated my problem and know what happened. I am going to have to assume that the hot switch comes on before there is damage to anything. I guess I will know if there ends up being water in the oil or I get hard starting problems when hot. These are signs of a blown head gasket. I certainly see no reason to pull the head given that I did not run the engine for very long with the buzzer on. Probably 15 seconds. >> >> >>Allen >> >> >> >>On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:06 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: >> >> >>> >>>I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket area. >>> >>>Ymmv >>> >>>john >>> >>>From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards >>>Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>> >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >>> >>> >>>I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex. >>> >>>Allen >>> >>>On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant. >>> >>>From:Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> >>> >>>To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >>>Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem >>> >>>On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote: >>>Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. >>>OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head gasket purposes? Chris Campbell >>> >> >> >> > > > > >

OK, humm... But I run the engine every few weeks all year long. It is not trivial to remove and probably went 20 years the first time I replaced it. I replace it when the pump started to leak and I needed a new pump. This impeller is less than 2 years old so I didn't consider replacing it. Perhaps I should have. Maybe they don't make them like they used to and I should put that one back in that was there for 20 years ;-) Allen On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > Allen, the O.B. Mechanics claim that if the impeller sits for a long time > it takes a 'set' with respect to it's position in the housing..at least, > that's what they claim. One mentioned that he'd change an impeller on a new > OB if it had been sitting on the shelf for a long time. I know rubber, if > compressed as in, under a hose clamp, or expanded, as, under pressure for a > long time in a solar panel connector, will tend to stay in that > position...permanently. I would expect a new impeller sitting in a box > would not have that problem, unless some one stuck an old impeller back in > a new rebuild. Hmm? Might be worth checking it out. > Jerry > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Saturday, July 27, 2013 6:25 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > I would guess I put 25 hours max on my engine in a year. I will check the > hour gauge next week to know for sure. Really, the question should be how > many hours on an impeller, not years. > > Allen > > > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com>wrote: > > ** > > One O.B. dealer insisted you should change impellers annually, another > said, since in CA we use our motors year round, once in three years is > safe. I ran my O.B. for six plus years till one day the motor sounded funny > and died. Re started and it died again. I check and noticed that there was > no water coming out the bleed tube. Ooops! Turns out one blade had snapped > and the broken piece had blocked the outlet opening of the pump. So, I'd > say, beyond five years is pushing your luck. The seller had claimed the > impeller had been changed within a year since I'd bought the boat. Now, I > used the motor quite a lot, regularly, going out to starting lines, or > motoring up the coast. So, I guess you have to juggle the factors. I was > lucky and I don't think I did any permanent damage to the motor...I think. > Hmm. Now that I think the O.B. is about due for a new impeller. Or can I > push it a bit more? It may be a case of a penny of care is worth a pound of > cure. > Jerry > ------------------------------ > *From:* Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2013 8:53 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > Speaking of impellors... Does anyone here know how long impellors > generally last? Only once have I found a partially broken impellor blade > during maintenance. > > Since we take Magic across the gulfstream to the Bahamas, I change the > impellor prior to departure. > > Michael > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2013 11:44 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) > > > I think my first impeller went 15 years or so before I checked it. I > changed it and kept it as a spare. I have never seen a bad impeller in 24 > years of owning the boat. It looked fine so I just put the cover back on. > Probably should have changed it out like you said as I have several. > > Allen > > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:18 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: > > ** > > I'm of the mindset that as long as you have the water pump apart, > replace the impeller and keep the old one as an emergency spare . . . but > since you don't cruise or motor long distances I'd just trash it. > > Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael D <md… [at] yahoo.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 10:53 am > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem (Allen) > > > Allen, > > A friend of mine had a similar problem with his genset. After lots of > troubleshooting, it turned out that although the impellor looked fine, it > was the culprit. The rubber impellor blades had become stiff to the point, > that unless the engine was at higher RPM, that it lost prime. > > Michael > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2013 10:32 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > > > Here is a follow-up on my strange engine problem. I checked the pump and > the impeller looks fine. I also did a test of starting the engine at low > RPM without giving it a little rev up. The pump did not pump. Goosed the > throttle and water flowed just fine. So I have duplicated my problem and > know what happened. I am going to have to assume that the hot switch comes > on before there is damage to anything. I guess I will know if there ends > up being water in the oil or I get hard starting problems when hot. These > are signs of a blown head gasket. I certainly see no reason to pull the > head given that I did not run the engine for very long with the buzzer on. > Probably 15 seconds. > > Allen > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 3:06 PM, john raxter <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> wrote: > > ** > > I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a > few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran > out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece > of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high > compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket > area.**** > ** ** > Ymmv**** > ** ** > john**** > ** ** > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem**** > ** ** > **** > I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex.**** > ** ** > Allen**** > ** ** > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote:**** > **** > I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant.**** > ** ** > *From:* Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> > > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem > **** > **** > On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote:**** > > Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. > If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. > **** > > OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head > gasket purposes? Chris Campbell**** > ** ** > **** > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I restore old Caterpillar crawlers as a hobby. I own a few 1949 model D2-5U machines. Have replaced a few head gaskets on those old diesels. I use "Copper Coat" gasket sealant when I replace the gasket. Use a very light coating. I replaced a gasket on one of my machines more than 12 years ago and it is still fine. But also, it's worth having the head magnafluxed at a machine shop. There can be a crack you can't see with your eyes, but it will leak when the head is hot. Could be an internal crack. A good shop can find a crack or give the head a thumbs up. If there is a crack it could be you need a new head, though there are times depending on where the crack is located you could maybe repair it with special welding rods. Good luck, Leslie On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> wrote: > ** > > > OK, mates, solve my head gasket mystery. It's a marine engine, an old > 1962 Volvo 80 hp 4-cyl. gas engine on an early Volvo-Penta Aquamatic I/O. > > For some reason, it leaks oil from an oil passage at the back of the > block. I've changed the head gasket multiple times. I've had the head > planed for flatness. I've applied a gasket sealer around the oil passage > (the old black Permatex goo). Nothing works. There's no evidence of a > crack or casting problem in the block. The oil passage is right at the > back of the block, close to the edge. Oil pressure is normal. > > One of Campbell's Laws is that when you want something to flow freely, it > will plug up when you're not looking, but when you want something not to > flow, it will always leak. All sailors learn the truth of that one when > sitting below in the boat during a rain storm. > > Chris Campbell > > On 7/25/2013 6:06 PM, john raxter wrote: > > I have not used anything on “new” head gaskets. I have worked with a > few “old time” mechanics that would use silver spray paint when they ran > out of the Copper spray-a-gasket. I have also seen mechanics use a piece > of copper wire between the water jackets and cylinders to help in high > compression (shaved head or blocks) to minimize leaks due to small gasket > area.**** > > ** ** > > Ymmv**** > > ** ** > > john**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] > *On Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:59 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem**** > > ** ** > > **** > > I use copper spray-a-gasket by Permatex.**** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > ** ** > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Greg vanDalen <no… [at] yahoo.com> > wrote:**** > > **** > > I was under the impression that head gaskets never got a sealant.**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Chris Campbell <cc… [at] lsnm.org> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:48 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Strange engine problem**** > > **** > > On 7/24/2013 9:18 AM, Chris H wrote:**** > > Also check you head gasket for leaks but that means removing the head. > If you do that, just spring for a new gasket and some good gasket sealer. > **** > > OK, listmates, what passes as "good gasket sealer" these days, for head > gasket purposes? Chris Campbell**** > > ** ** > > **** > > > >

On 7/27/2013 7:22 PM, Gerald Sobel wrote: > > > One O.B. dealer insisted you should change impellers annually, another > said, since in CA we use our motors year round, once in three years is > safe. I ran my O.B. for six plus years till one day the motor sounded > funny and died. Re started and it died again. I check and noticed that > there was no water coming out the bleed tube. Ooops! Turns out one > blade had snapped and the broken piece had blocked the outlet opening > of the pump. So, I'd say, beyond five years is pushing your luck. My observation is that outboard motor impellers are designed to be more durable than the little ones used on inboard engines. The outboard ones have longer arms and flex less. My guess is that they are designed to last longer because they are harder to check and to change, and the manufacturers know that people are likely to do neither very often. Inboard engine impellers are usually quite easy to check & change, just by removing the little cover plate. Durability in terms of years or decades of use is less important. I checked the impeller on the 1967 Evinrude 6 hp that pushes my Cal 20 when the wind fails me. The lower unit was off because the shift linkage disconnected itself on launch day a couple years ago. The impeller was worn but not cracking, so I put it back in. It may have been the original device, and for sure it's at least 12 years old because I've owned it that long. The old 3 hp fishing motor may have had an impeller replacement 25 years ago when there was an overheating problem (crud in the water passages) but I'm not sure about that. I guess my point is that these things seems to last a very long time in outboards. That said, I do usually look to make sure the motor is peeing out of the little relief hole when I start one up, just to make sure. The 1938 Johnson 2 hp uses a little plunger pump and has been pumping without fail now for 75 years. Can't complain about that. Chris Campbell