RE: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Americas Cup

Jerry, I have all that stuff on my CAL 25. The CAL 25 National Rules are silent on the issue. By the way, the West Coast CAL 25 rules (and now National) state that one cannot have more than 2 boat batteries. Seems that some were dumping 5-6 batteries in the bilge for ballast. You guys are wicked. That kind of stuff never occurred to us humble East Coasters. Cheers Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 4:43 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Americas Cup - Allen I read the AC Cup rule 19.2. It says that it shall not be legal for a sensor to control any valve which controls the daggerboards, rudders, or wings. I'd like to understand how then, was the Stability Augementation System ruled to be legal? It is legal to use an electric system powered by a battery to control a hydraulic valve, but not to control that valve by use of a sensor. How does an automatic stability system work without having sensors? I can't figure out how this could be done, or how it could therefore be allowed by the Rules Committee. Jerry On Thursday, September 26, 2013 10:53 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: This is from an ozzie newspaper: . Oracle automated their foiling with a piece of high-tech technology called 'SAS '(originally Boeing 747 technology originally called "big Herbie" that automates the stability foils). ETNZ had to manually crank their foils. No contest in the end. SAS only disclosed recently and perfected SAS towards the end of the races and it really showed..All kudos to them as it was an entirely legal development it seems. Larry dropped another $60M on new foils and ordered the entire NZ boatbuilding team to SFO (flying his jet down to collect them). No comparison between a USD $1Bn campaign vs an NZD100M budget with a mishmash of sponsors. Larry obvioulsy know where to find excellence and he found it in the NZ marine industry. So given many at Oracle are Kiwis and the boat was build in NZ, we still win anyways! Huge thanks to key ETNZ sponsiors like e.g.Emirates Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/oracle-team-usa-wins-americas-cup-as-team-nz-complete-historic-choke-20130926-2uexj.html#ixzz2g1R7GE5B On Thursday, September 26, 2013 10:01 AM, "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: Great shot Allen! Thanks! Were you that close or is that with a big zoom lens? Glad to hear the reason behind the speed increase. I've been expecting to hear controversy behind that and tales of cheating etc. Sounds like it's a non-issue. Bet you're kicking yourself for missing it yesterday! Paul From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 26, 2013 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Americas Cup - Allen I watched every race of both series either on TV or in person. I saw three races in person, two from the land and one from the water. I did not go to the race yesterday. I read the following this morning: "A big factor in Oracle’s sudden improvement upwind has been put down to something called the Stability Augmentation System, or SAS. The device is a control for the boat’s balance while foiling with the simple push of a button. This proved to be a big difference between the set ups of the two boats, and not just in performance. ETNZ had a manual system for controlling the daggerboards and the rake of the foils, with one of the crew burdened with that responsibility. Oracle’s system was automatic, leaving a body spare to be utilised elsewhere. Much was made of the defender’s three pronged afterguard of Spithill, Tom Slingsby and Sir Ben Ainslie up against Barker and Davies, and maybe that was where that body went. Questions were also raised about how the system worked. The class rule of the AC72 didn’t allow any form of stored energy, essentially saying it was up to the grinders to power the control systems. ETNZ queried the Race Jury for clarification before the series began in reference to the computerised SAS, and the Jury gave it the thumbs up. It still took the defenders time to calibrate the system, but it’s believed this was the single biggest influence on the upwind performance turn around for Oracle, and the winning of the Cup." Here is one of the pictures I took: [Image removed by sender.] On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 6:59 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com<mailto:pw… [at] aol.com>> wrote: Allen - Just curious if you ever made it over to watch the circus? Thought maybe that was why you wanted to be able to climb the mast by yourself for a better view ;-). A friend of mine is a pilot for Jet Blue and managed to snag a flight out there and got to see the last race and all the festivities afterwards. I just wonder what adjustments were made to give Oracle an extra 4-5kts of boat speed. Paul

Charlie, I think the Pope uses a sensor too, but probably not connected to any hydraulic valves via a computer. I wonder, is he into to sailing, or too busy? Being a simple sort of person, of modest tastes, a Cal 25, or even a 20, should suit him fine. Maybe there will be a Vatican Cup competition, or even an Ecumenical Cup, one day. But, do I digress? I'm happy we won the cup, but not so much if we had to cheat to defend it. I wonder if there will be more comments on this later. I hope Team Kiwi returns, like Mr. Lipton did. Jerry On Thursday, September 26, 2013 6:26 PM, "Husar, Charlie [USA] (ASE)" <hu… [at] bah.com> wrote: >Jerry, I have all that stuff on my CAL 25. The CAL 25 National Rules are silent on the issue. > >By the way, the West Coast CAL 25 rules (and now National) state that one cannot have more than 2 boat batteries. Seems that some were dumping 5-6 batteries in the bilge for ballast. You guys are wicked. That kind of stuff never occurred to us humble East Coasters. > >Cheers >Charlie > >From:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Sobel >Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 4:43 PM >To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >Subject: [External] Re: [Cal_Boats] Americas Cup - Allen > > > > > >I read the AC Cup rule 19.2. It says that it shall not be legal for a sensor to control any valve which controls the daggerboards, rudders, or wings. I'd like to understand how then, was the Stability Augementation System ruled to be legal? It is legal to use an electric system powered by a battery to control a hydraulic valve, but not to control that valve by use of a sensor. How does an automatic stability system work without having sensors? I can't figure out how this could be done, or how it could therefore be allowed by the Rules Committee. >Jerry > >On Thursday, September 26, 2013 10:53 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > >>This is from an ozzie newspaper: >>. Oracle automated their foiling with a piece of high-tech technology called 'SAS '(originally Boeing 747 technology originally called "big Herbie" that automates the stability foils). ETNZ had to manually crank their foils. No contest in the end. SAS only disclosed recently and perfected SAS towards the end of the races and it really showed..All kudos to them as it was an entirely legal development it seems. Larry dropped another $60M on new foils and ordered the entire NZ boatbuilding team to SFO (flying his jet down to collect them). No comparison between a USD $1Bn campaign vs an NZD100M budget with a mishmash of sponsors. Larry obvioulsy know where to find excellence and he found it in the NZ marine industry. So given many at Oracle are Kiwis and the boat was build in NZ, we still win anyways! Huge thanks to key ETNZ sponsiors like e.g.Emirates >> >>Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/oracle-team-usa-wins-americas-cup-as-team-nz-complete-historic-choke-20130926-2uexj.html#ixzz2g1R7GE5B >> >>On Thursday, September 26, 2013 10:01 AM, "pw… [at] aol.com" <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: >> >>>Great shot Allen! Thanks! Were you that close or is that with a big zoom lens? >>> >>>Glad to hear the reason behind the speed increase. I've been expecting to hear controversy behind that and tales of cheating etc. Sounds like it's a non-issue. >>> >>>Bet you're kicking yourself for missing it yesterday! >>> >>>Paul >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>>To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>>Sent: Thu, Sep 26, 2013 12:48 pm >>>Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Americas Cup - Allen >>> >>>I watched every race of both series either on TV or in person. I saw three races in person, two from the land and one from the water. I did not go to the race yesterday. >>> >>>I read the following this morning: >>>"A big factor in Oracle’s sudden improvement upwind has been put down to something called the Stability Augmentation System, or SAS. The device is a control for the boat’s balance while foiling with the simple push of a button. This proved to be a big difference between the set ups of the two boats, and not just in performance. ETNZ had a manual system for controlling the daggerboards and the rake of the foils, with one of the crew burdened with that responsibility. Oracle’s system was automatic, leaving a body spare to be utilised elsewhere. Much was made of the defender’s three pronged afterguard of Spithill, Tom Slingsby and Sir Ben Ainslie up against Barker and Davies, and maybe that was where that body went. Questions were also raised about how the system worked. The class rule of the AC72 didn’t allow any form of stored energy, essentially saying it was up to the grinders to power the control systems. ETNZ queried the Race Jury for clarification before the series began in reference to the computerised SAS, and the Jury gave it the thumbs up. It still took the defenders time to calibrate the system, but it’s believed this was the single biggest influence on the upwind performance turn around for Oracle, and the winning of the Cup." >>> >>>Here is one of the pictures I took: >>> >>> >>>On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 6:59 AM, <pw… [at] aol.com> wrote: >>> >>>Allen - >>> >>>Just curious if you ever made it over to watch the circus? Thought maybe that was why you wanted to be able to climb the mast by yourself for a better view ;-). >>> >>>A friend of mine is a pilot for Jet Blue and managed to snag a flight out there and got to see the last race and all the festivities afterwards. >>> >>>I just wonder what adjustments were made to give Oracle an extra 4-5kts of boat speed. >>> >>>Paul >>> >>> >> > > > > > > >