Re: Americas Cup - Allen

Regarding gyroscopes et al: cell phones have driven the development of extremely inexpensive, low-power, and tiny inertial navigation devices that are very sensitive. The whole package is a chip with a footprint the size of a pencil eraser or smaller. The electronics of such a system could probably be driven by a small solar panel, or just about any other energy harvesting device (no stored power required). The actuators that it controls would probably be driven by the same hydraulics used to raise and lower the dagger foils. Alfred Poor 1973 Tartan 34C #288 "Jambalaya"

hydraulics cannot have any direct input from any sensors. Batteries are OK for controlling the hydraulics. Below is the interesting part of the rules. "batteries to power instruments" are legal. The SAS could be an instrument. Instruments are not defined. Allen (i) hydraulic valves. These operations shall only provide the input for the position of the valve; (ii) drive clutches in winch systems. The valves and drive clutches referred to in (i) and (ii) above, shall be commercially available and Competitors shall have had these approved by the Measurement Committee for use via an issued interpretation. The operation for (i) and (ii) above, shall not receive external input from any source other than manual input. Any data acquisition system, associated sensors or electronics shall be physically separate and completely isolated from any electrical operation referred to in (i) and (ii) with the exception of the voltage supply. The manual input may latch the valve(s) or clutch(es), operate multiple valves or clutches, and /or provide variable position. Valves and clutches may be operated from multiple manual inputs. On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Alfred Poor <ap… [at] verizon.net> wrote: > ** > > > Regarding gyroscopes et al: cell phones have driven the development of > extremely inexpensive, low-power, and tiny inertial navigation devices that > are very sensitive. The whole package is a chip with a footprint the size > of a pencil eraser or smaller. The electronics of such a system could > probably be driven by a small solar panel, or just about any other energy > harvesting device (no stored power required). The actuators that it > controls would probably be driven by the same hydraulics used to raise and > lower the dagger foils.**** > > ** ** > > Alfred Poor**** > > 1973 Tartan 34C #288 “Jambalaya”**** > > ** ** > > >

Mates, not to beat a dead horse, but wouldn't any kind of GPS or inertial device employ sensors? Only thing I can think of is you'd have to have someone monitoring a device, and following its indicators by operating controlling devices manually. The rule specifically states you can't have a valve controlled directly by anything with a sensor. And, come to think of it, a gyroscope is an energy storage device, but it might have no link to a boat other than spinning fast enuf or with enuff mass to impart stability, but, over 7 tons of bounding, plunging catamaran? Nice mystery. Jerry On Friday, September 27, 2013 1:43 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >hydraulics cannot have any direct input from any sensors. Batteries are OK for controlling the hydraulics. Below is the interesting part of the rules. "batteries to power instruments" are legal. The SAS could be an instrument. Instruments are not defined. > > >Allen > > > >(i) hydraulic valves. These operations shall only provide the input for the >position of the valve; >(ii) drive clutches in winch systems. >The valves and drive clutches referred to in (i) and (ii) above, shall be commercially >available and Competitors shall have had these approved by the Measurement >Committee for use via an issued interpretation. >The operation for (i) and (ii) above, shall not receive external input from any source >other than manual input. Any data acquisition system, associated sensors or >electronics shall be physically separate and completely isolated from any electrical >operation referred to in (i) and (ii) with the exception of the voltage supply. The >manual input may latch the valve(s) or clutch(es), operate multiple valves or >clutches, and /or provide variable position. Valves and clutches may be operated >from multiple manual inputs. > > > >On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Alfred Poor <ap… [at] verizon.net> wrote: > > >> >>Regarding gyroscopes et al: cell phones have driven the development of extremely inexpensive, low-power, and tiny inertial navigation devices that are very sensitive. The whole package is a chip with a footprint the size of a pencil eraser or smaller. The electronics of such a system could probably be driven by a small solar panel, or just about any other energy harvesting device (no stored power required). The actuators that it controls would probably be driven by the same hydraulics used to raise and lower the dagger foils. >> >>Alfred Poor >>1973 Tartan 34C #288 “Jambalaya” >> > > > >

my post from SA on the subject: ------------------------------------------------ Spent some time reading the AC rules. They are very clear that no sensor can control the hydraulics. In fact, the wiring needs to be separated so that it is easy to see that sensors and controls are indeed separate. Crew using sensors to tell them how to adjust things is common. On my boat, I sail to a target speed. Head up if I am going to fast, fall off is too slow. So they have a Herbie and know from its readout how to set the foils. As long as they are not connected, legal. If it was automatic, illegal but surely would have been caught given the separation of the wiring requirement. When I saw OTUSA driving the bow into the water on every tack my reaction was they should take weight out of the bow and put weight in the stern. They say they put more of the load on the rudder. Sounds like another way of saying the same thing. Keep the bow from diving in and you will not lose so much on each tack, which is what was happening. In terms of the AC-45 rule infraction. Looking at the report and particularly the pictures, it looks like there was a problem with the strength of the end fittings and what they did was improve the design by making the insert section longer. That likely made they heavier. They should have proposed that as a change for the fleet. Stupid mistake. Saying adding 5 pounds on the boat in the wrong place is cheating is beyond reason. Saying it was a violation of the rules is fair. Taking away their wing trimmer certainly would impact performance in the earlier races. That should be considered when trying to explain the improvement. On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 6:32 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > Mates, not to beat a dead horse, but wouldn't any kind of GPS or inertial > device employ sensors? Only thing I can think of is you'd have to have > someone monitoring a device, and following its indicators by operating > controlling devices manually. The rule specifically states you can't have a > valve controlled directly by anything with a sensor. And, come to think of > it, a gyroscope is an energy storage device, but it might have no link to a > boat other than spinning fast enuf or with enuff mass to impart stability, > but, over 7 tons of bounding, plunging catamaran? > Nice mystery. > Jerry > > > > On Friday, September 27, 2013 1:43 PM, Allen Edwards < > al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > > > hydraulics cannot have any direct input from any sensors. Batteries are > OK for controlling the hydraulics. Below is the interesting part of the > rules. "batteries to power instruments" are legal. The SAS could be an > instrument. Instruments are not defined. > > Allen > > (i) hydraulic valves. These operations shall only provide the input for > the > position of the valve; > (ii) drive clutches in winch systems. > The valves and drive clutches referred to in (i) and (ii) above, shall be > commercially > available and Competitors shall have had these approved by the Measurement > Committee for use via an issued interpretation. > The operation for (i) and (ii) above, shall not receive external input > from any source > other than manual input. Any data acquisition system, associated sensors > or > electronics shall be physically separate and completely isolated from any > electrical > operation referred to in (i) and (ii) with the exception of the voltage > supply. The > manual input may latch the valve(s) or clutch(es), operate multiple valves > or > clutches, and /or provide variable position. Valves and clutches may be > operated > from multiple manual inputs. > > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Alfred Poor <ap… [at] verizon.net> wrote: > > ** > > Regarding gyroscopes et al: cell phones have driven the development of > extremely inexpensive, low-power, and tiny inertial navigation devices that > are very sensitive. The whole package is a chip with a footprint the size > of a pencil eraser or smaller. The electronics of such a system could > probably be driven by a small solar panel, or just about any other energy > harvesting device (no stored power required). The actuators that it > controls would probably be driven by the same hydraulics used to raise and > lower the dagger foils.**** > ** ** > Alfred Poor**** > 1973 Tartan 34C #288 “Jambalaya”**** > ** ** > > > > > >