Stuck Valve

I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises to replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my engine back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all went well. Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound right and upon further investigation found no power in #1. Removing the plug revealed that the valve right below the spark plug is permanently open. The engine is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been rebuilt by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck valves. In that case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were not new nor were the guides and it was a water leak between the guides and the head that caused the sticking valves. He also said the head, which was said to be new, was not new and had not been surfaced. I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs to be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If there was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I take the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? Looking for guidance. Thanks. Allen

Allen, I know where there is a rebuilt Grey Marine engine. My boatyard, Rentner Marine in Chicago. Been in business since 1942, family owned and operated. They know their stuff, and don't suffer fools. As an owner I had to earn their respect as someone who knew about boats. It took a few years. David Dobbs CAL 29 411 On Thursday, October 17, 2013 7:55 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises to replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my engine back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all went well. Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound right and upon further investigation found no power in #1. Removing the plug revealed that the valve right below the spark plug is permanently open. The engine is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been rebuilt by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck valves. In that case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were not new nor were the guides and it was a water leak between the guides and the head that caused the sticking valves. He also said the head, which was said to be new, was not new and had not been surfaced. I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs to be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If there was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I take the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? Looking for guidance. Thanks. Allen

Allen, I know where there is a rebuilt Grey Marine engine. My boatyard, Rentner Marine in Chicago. Been in business since 1942, family owned and operated. They know their stuff, and don't suffer fools. As an owner I had to earn their respect as someone who knew about boats. It took a few years. David Dobbs CAL 29 411 On Thursday, October 17, 2013 7:55 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises to replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my engine back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all went well. Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound right and upon further investigation found no power in #1. Removing the plug revealed that the valve right below the spark plug is permanently open. The engine is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been rebuilt by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck valves. In that case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were not new nor were the guides and it was a water leak between the guides and the head that caused the sticking valves. He also said the head, which was said to be new, was not new and had not been surfaced. I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs to be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If there was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I take the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? Looking for guidance. Thanks. Allen

Allen, do you have the boat us gold card? get towed...if you run it any more and you have a chance in &*(% of getting a refund, you may take that option out if it gets worse and they say it's not their fault. Helen From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:55 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises to replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my engine back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all went well. Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound right and upon further investigation found no power in #1. Removing the plug revealed that the valve right below the spark plug is permanently open. The engine is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been rebuilt by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck valves. In that case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were not new nor were the guides and it was a water leak between the guides and the head that caused the sticking valves. He also said the head, which was said to be new, was not new and had not been surfaced. I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs to be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If there was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I take the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? Looking for guidance. Thanks. Allen

Hi Helen, I have it on good authority that they will say it is not their fault no matter what. Their warrantee is for one season and as it ran through two seasons, I am screwed. Let's see. $5000 divided by 50 hours is... the going wage rate. Maybe I need to get one of those gold cards. Does your boat need to be running to get one? :-) I think there was someone on this list who was considering sending their engine to this guy and I did my best to let him know about my experience but he sent the engine to this guy anyway. Next time I won't be so subtle about my feelings. My opinion now on engine rebuilds is go to someone local that you can go back to if something needs looking after. This rebuild has been much less reliable than the 50 year old warn out engine. Allen On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 7:27 PM, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: > ** > > > Allen, do you have the boat us gold card? get towed...if you run it any > more and you have a chance in &*(% of getting a refund, you may take that > option out if it gets worse and they say it's not their fault. Helen > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:55 PM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve > > > I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises to > replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my engine > back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all went well. > Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound right and upon > further investigation found no power in #1. Removing the plug revealed > that the valve right below the spark plug is permanently open. The engine > is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. > > The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been rebuilt > by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck valves. In that > case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were not new nor were the > guides and it was a water leak between the guides and the head that caused > the sticking valves. He also said the head, which was said to be new, was > not new and had not been surfaced. > > I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs to > be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If there > was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. > > Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I take > the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? Looking for > guidance. > > Thanks. > > Allen > > > >

I believe that, I forgot that 50 hours is a long time on a sailboat. about that card, it's good for a boat to a service/haulout,from your dock even. it's also good (the gold level) for a boat you're on even if it's not yours and vessel assist is needed. You would just call v.a. and set up a time and they'll get you there. going to Berkeley? You could have the engine delivered before you arrive. We'll be hauling within this next year again..don't like our bottom paint, will be changing. We've been beercan racing our 36(Caliente) #60 in the southbay, and plan to do a race this Saturday, most likely in light airs. We're also planning a sail upgrade, those 45 year old original sails only work when they're dripping wet. we're still running our Atomic 4, but have to be careful where we buy the fuel.Also we beefed up our bilge last haulout, at Cree's suggestion..want to see if it made a difference visually with the latest keelwag conversation. I also plan to learn your mastclimbing system. I hope you won't miss any races because of this. Helen From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve Hi Helen, I have it on good authority that they will say it is not their fault no matter what. Their warrantee is for one season and as it ran through two seasons, I am screwed. Let's see. $5000 divided by 50 hours is... the going wage rate. Maybe I need to get one of those gold cards. Does your boat need to be running to get one? :-) I think there was someone on this list who was considering sending their engine to this guy and I did my best to let him know about my experience but he sent the engine to this guy anyway. Next time I won't be so subtle about my feelings. My opinion now on engine rebuilds is go to someone local that you can go back to if something needs looking after. This rebuild has been much less reliable than the 50 year old warn out engine. Allen On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 7:27 PM, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >Allen, do you have the boat us gold card? get towed...if you run it any more and you have a chance in &*(% of getting a refund, you may take that option out if it gets worse and they say it's not their fault. Helen > > > > > > >________________________________ > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:55 PM >Subject: [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve > > > > >I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises to replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my engine back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all went well. Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound right and upon further investigation found no power in #1. Removing the plug revealed that the valve right below the spark plug is permanently open. The engine is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. > > >The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been rebuilt by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck valves. In that case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were not new nor were the guides and it was a water leak between the guides and the head that caused the sticking valves. He also said the head, which was said to be new, was not new and had not been surfaced. > > >I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs to be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If there was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. > > >Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I take the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? Looking for guidance. > > >Thanks. > > >Allen > >

We towed Per Curtis' Cal 31 all the way back from Catalina's Howland Landing, to Marina de Rey, using an inflatable with outboard, tied to its beam with spring lines fore and aft. I worked great. No problems. They were making 4.5 knots the whole way. Jerry Also, had a wiped out cam on the intake valve of one cylinder on my 318 dodge. I shorted out the electrode so it wouldn't spark, and drove on seven cylinders for months, till the truck was junked for not being able to pass smog test. On Thursday, October 17, 2013 9:06 PM, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: >I believe that, I forgot that 50 hours is a long time on a sailboat. about that card, it's good for a boat to a service/haulout,from your dock even. it's also good (the gold level) for a boat you're on even if it's not yours and vessel assist is needed. You would just call v.a. and set up a time and they'll get you there. going to Berkeley? You could have the engine delivered before you arrive. We'll be hauling within this next year again..don't like our bottom paint, will be changing. We've been beercan racing our 36(Caliente) #60 in the southbay, and plan to do a race this Saturday, most likely in light airs. We're also planning a sail upgrade, those 45 year old original sails only work when they're dripping wet. we're still running our Atomic 4, but have to be careful where we buy the fuel.Also we beefed up our bilge last haulout, at Cree's suggestion..want to see if it made a difference visually with the latest keelwag conversation. I also plan to learn your mastclimbing system. I hope you won't miss any races because of this. Helen > > > > > > > >________________________________ > From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 8:30 PM >Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve > > > > >Hi Helen, > > >I have it on good authority that they will say it is not their fault no matter what. Their warrantee is for one season and as it ran through two seasons, I am screwed. Let's see. $5000 divided by 50 hours is... the going wage rate. > > >Maybe I need to get one of those gold cards. Does your boat need to be running to get one? :-) > > >I think there was someone on this list who was considering sending their engine to this guy and I did my best to let him know about my experience but he sent the engine to this guy anyway. Next time I won't be so subtle about my feelings. > > >My opinion now on engine rebuilds is go to someone local that you can go back to if something needs looking after. This rebuild has been much less reliable than the 50 year old warn out engine. > > >Allen > > > > > > > >On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 7:27 PM, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > >> >>Allen, do you have the boat us gold card? get towed...if you run it any more and you have a chance in &*(% of getting a refund, you may take that option out if it gets worse and they say it's not their fault. Helen >> >> >> >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >>To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >>Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:55 PM >>Subject: [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve >> >> >> >> >>I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises to replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my engine back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all went well. Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound right and upon further investigation found no power in #1. Removing the plug revealed that the valve right below the spark plug is permanently open. The engine is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. >> >> >>The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been rebuilt by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck valves. In that case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were not new nor were the guides and it was a water leak between the guides and the head that caused the sticking valves. He also said the head, which was said to be new, was not new and had not been surfaced. >> >> >>I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs to be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If there was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. >> >> >>Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I take the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? Looking for guidance. >> >> >>Thanks. >> >> >>Allen >> >> > > > > > >

I once race a guy with a spark plug wire off. My car had so much power I didn't even notice it and didn't even have to press all the way on the gas to beat him. It was a memorable night. 50 people standing on the street corner at midnight watching us go by at 110MPH as a LA Police car casually drove by after watching the entire thing from the cross street. He just drove on. No yachting content, sorry. Just had to recall the incident. Allen On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > ** > > > We towed Per Curtis' Cal 31 all the way back from Catalina's Howland > Landing, to Marina de Rey, using an inflatable with outboard, tied to its > beam with spring lines fore and aft. I worked great. No problems. They were > making 4.5 knots the whole way. > Jerry > Also, had a wiped out cam on the intake valve of one cylinder on my 318 > dodge. I shorted out the electrode so it wouldn't spark, and drove on seven > cylinders for months, till the truck was junked for not being able to pass > smog test. > > > On Thursday, October 17, 2013 9:06 PM, Helen Horn < > he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > I believe that, I forgot that 50 hours is a long time on a sailboat. > about that card, it's good for a boat to a service/haulout,from your dock > even. it's also good (the gold level) for a boat you're on even if it's not > yours and vessel assist is needed. You would just call v.a. and set up a > time and they'll get you there. going to Berkeley? You could have the > engine delivered before you arrive. We'll be hauling within this next year > again..don't like our bottom paint, will be changing. We've been beercan > racing our 36(Caliente) #60 in the southbay, and plan to do a race this > Saturday, most likely in light airs. We're also planning a sail upgrade, > those 45 year old original sails only work when they're dripping wet. we're > still running our Atomic 4, but have to be careful where we buy the > fuel.Also we beefed up our bilge last haulout, at Cree's suggestion..want > to see if it made a difference visually with the latest keelwag > conversation. I also plan to learn your mastclimbing system. I hope you > won't miss any races because of this. Helen > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Thursday, October 17, 2013 8:30 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve > > > Hi Helen, > > I have it on good authority that they will say it is not their fault no > matter what. Their warrantee is for one season and as it ran through two > seasons, I am screwed. Let's see. $5000 divided by 50 hours is... the > going wage rate. > > Maybe I need to get one of those gold cards. Does your boat need to be > running to get one? :-) > > I think there was someone on this list who was considering sending their > engine to this guy and I did my best to let him know about my experience > but he sent the engine to this guy anyway. Next time I won't be so subtle > about my feelings. > > My opinion now on engine rebuilds is go to someone local that you can go > back to if something needs looking after. This rebuild has been much less > reliable than the 50 year old warn out engine. > > Allen > > > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 7:27 PM, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net>wrote: > > ** > > Allen, do you have the boat us gold card? get towed...if you run it any > more and you have a chance in &*(% of getting a refund, you may take that > option out if it gets worse and they say it's not their fault. Helen > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:55 PM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve > > > I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises to > replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my engine > back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all went well. > Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound right and upon > further investigation found no power in #1. Removing the plug revealed > that the valve right below the spark plug is permanently open. The engine > is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. > > The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been rebuilt > by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck valves. In that > case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were not new nor were the > guides and it was a water leak between the guides and the head that caused > the sticking valves. He also said the head, which was said to be new, was > not new and had not been surfaced. > > I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs to > be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If there > was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. > > Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I take > the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? Looking for > guidance. > > Thanks. > > Allen > > > > > > > > >

Lots of time to the next race. I had to miss the Jessica cup this year but it looks like 1 boat signed up in my class and no other L-36s, and no wind so good that I had a conflict. This is really a bother, very upsetting. Not sure what to do. Ideally I can get the valve unstuck and drive over there before it sticks again. The mast climbing system is pretty easy. I am happy to answer any questions. Someone on my dock just got his ascenders from Amazon today. I didn't know him but he just saw the article and decided he liked the method. Allen On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: > ** > > > I believe that, I forgot that 50 hours is a long time on a sailboat. about > that card, it's good for a boat to a service/haulout,from your dock even. > it's also good (the gold level) for a boat you're on even if it's not yours > and vessel assist is needed. You would just call v.a. and set up a time and > they'll get you there. going to Berkeley? You could have the engine > delivered before you arrive. We'll be hauling within this next year > again..don't like our bottom paint, will be changing. We've been beercan > racing our 36(Caliente) #60 in the southbay, and plan to do a race this > Saturday, most likely in light airs. We're also planning a sail upgrade, > those 45 year old original sails only work when they're dripping wet. we're > still running our Atomic 4, but have to be careful where we buy the > fuel.Also we beefed up our bilge last haulout, at Cree's suggestion..want > to see if it made a difference visually with the latest keelwag > conversation. I also plan to learn your mastclimbing system. I hope you > won't miss any races because of this. Helen > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Thursday, October 17, 2013 8:30 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve > > > Hi Helen, > > I have it on good authority that they will say it is not their fault no > matter what. Their warrantee is for one season and as it ran through two > seasons, I am screwed. Let's see. $5000 divided by 50 hours is... the > going wage rate. > > Maybe I need to get one of those gold cards. Does your boat need to be > running to get one? :-) > > I think there was someone on this list who was considering sending their > engine to this guy and I did my best to let him know about my experience > but he sent the engine to this guy anyway. Next time I won't be so subtle > about my feelings. > > My opinion now on engine rebuilds is go to someone local that you can go > back to if something needs looking after. This rebuild has been much less > reliable than the 50 year old warn out engine. > > Allen > > > > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 7:27 PM, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net>wrote: > > ** > > Allen, do you have the boat us gold card? get towed...if you run it any > more and you have a chance in &*(% of getting a refund, you may take that > option out if it gets worse and they say it's not their fault. Helen > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:55 PM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve > > > I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises to > replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my engine > back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all went well. > Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound right and upon > further investigation found no power in #1. Removing the plug revealed > that the valve right below the spark plug is permanently open. The engine > is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. > > The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been rebuilt > by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck valves. In that > case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were not new nor were the > guides and it was a water leak between the guides and the head that caused > the sticking valves. He also said the head, which was said to be new, was > not new and had not been surfaced. > > I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs to > be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If there > was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. > > Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I take > the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? Looking for > guidance. > > Thanks. > > Allen > > > > > > >

Before you waist time reading all this, just FYI one of my hobbies for the past 17years has been restoring old diesel Caterpillar crawlers (from the 30's and 40's) and I've been into a lot of engines gas and diesel. The old Cat's have a gas pony engine that starts the diesel. So, a stuck valve. Is it the exhaust valve? If yes, you'd think it stuck from trash in the valve guide. Like maybe the engine was burning dirty from old gas or the choke out. I guess water could cause some trash or something. When I read your post it made me wonder how water would stick the valve. I've seen old diesels with water getting into the cylinders and it wouldn't stick the valve. What it did do was bend piston rods. Water doesn't give and when the piston came up to firing position with the valves closed something had to give and it sometimes was the rod. If the tolerances are very tight between the guide and valve shaft I could see the valve sticking from dirty exhaust. I had that happen on our tiller. I know that is a much smaller engine. My wife ran it with the choke out (by mistake) and she called me to say the engine quit. Investigation revealed that the exhaust valve was stuck out from combustion crud. I just sprayed some cleaner and worked it around until it snapped back closed. Wasn't a big deal really. I did remove the head and ended up taking out the valve to clean its shaft with some steel wool. Put it all back and cranked up the engine. No biggie. Your head will be a little more work. If you remove the head you'll want to magnaflux it to check for cracks, check it to make sure it's not warped, fix your valve and put it back on with a new head gasket. Maybe some copper coat on the gasket, though the jury is out on that. I use it but some people say it is not needed. Often you can tell if water has been seeping to the wrong places by examining the head gasket for tracks. Also, an engine will run a long time even with problems. A friend was running his outboard pulling skiers. It was making an awful racket all season. He finally pulled it apart and found that the piston on #2 cylinder had become detached from the rod. the piston was broken and the wrist pin was just slamming into the piston on the up stroke. But it stayed running. He found a new piston and rod and replaced those parts. He's run the same engine all this season. Like an earlier poster said, you could probably just pull that plug wire and motor home minus one cylinder. As long as your engine is getting oil and not over heating you're really just dealing with a miss and loss of some power. Once home you have all the time in the world to fix it. On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 8:55 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > ** > > > I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises to > replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my engine > back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all went well. > Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound right and upon > further investigation found no power in #1. Removing the plug revealed > that the valve right below the spark plug is permanently open. The engine > is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. > > The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been rebuilt > by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck valves. In that > case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were not new nor were the > guides and it was a water leak between the guides and the head that caused > the sticking valves. He also said the head, which was said to be new, was > not new and had not been surfaced. > > I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs to > be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If there > was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. > > Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I take > the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? Looking for > guidance. > > Thanks. > > Allen > > >

***** Here are your options - 1] run the engine as is, slowly. Since there is no compression in one cylinder, this option should work OK, assuming settled weather. 2] get towed by a friend, by your dink with outboard, or by a professional service. 3] sail there. 4] Take the head off for a professional inspection, and fix the sticky valve problem. The ultimate fix is to install a new engine, with warranty. Joe DeMers On 10/17/2013 8:55 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > > I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises > to replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my > engine back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all > went well. Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound > right and upon further investigation found no power in #1. Removing > the plug revealed that the valve right below the spark plug is > permanently open. The engine is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. > > The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been > rebuilt by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck > valves. In that case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were > not new nor were the guides and it was a water leak between the guides > and the head that caused the sticking valves. He also said the head, > which was said to be new, was not new and had not been surfaced. > > I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs > to be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If > there was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. > > Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I > take the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? > Looking for guidance. > > Thanks. > > Allen > > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3614/6761 - Release Date: 10/18/13 > -- *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> *phone & fax (860) 666-2184*

I have 1949 Caterpillar diesels that run better than new, so new engine with warranty never enters my mind :). [image: Inline image 1] On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: > ** > > > ** ***** Here are your options - > > 1] run the engine as is, slowly. Since there is no compression in one > cylinder, this option should work OK, assuming settled weather. > > 2] get towed by a friend, by your dink with outboard, or by a > professional service. > > 3] sail there. > > 4] Take the head off for a professional inspection, and fix the sticky > valve problem. > > The ultimate fix is to install a new engine, with warranty. > > Joe DeMers > > > On 10/17/2013 8:55 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises to > replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my engine > back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all went well. > Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound right and upon > further investigation found no power in #1. Removing the plug revealed > that the valve right below the spark plug is permanently open. The engine > is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. > > The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been rebuilt > by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck valves. In that > case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were not new nor were the > guides and it was a water leak between the guides and the head that caused > the sticking valves. He also said the head, which was said to be new, was > not new and had not been surfaced. > > I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs to > be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If there > was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. > > Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I take > the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? Looking for > guidance. > > Thanks. > > Allen > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3614/6761 - Release Date: 10/18/13 > > > -- > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > >

That is a hard working old beauty! I had an older Allis Chalmers HD-6, (like the ones in the movie, "Fighting Seabees" powered by a Detroit 2-71 when we lived in Sonoma County for working the vineyard. It was a joy and the sound was wonderful. Of course, it was named "Duke". Amazing what Cal Boat owners do or have done. Tom Vandiver, Cal 46, "Satori" Bayou Chico, Florida From: Leslie Newman <d2… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve I have 1949 Caterpillar diesels that run better than new, so new engine with warranty never enters my mind :). On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> wrote: > > ***** Here are your options - > >1] run the engine as is, slowly. Since there is no compression in one cylinder, this option should work OK, assuming settled weather. > >2] get towed by a friend, by your dink with outboard, or by a professional service. > >3] sail there. > >4] Take the head off for a professional inspection, and fix the sticky valve problem. > >The ultimate fix is to install a new engine, with warranty. > >Joe DeMers > >On 10/17/2013 8:55 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: >I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises to replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my engine back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all went well. Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound right and upon further investigation found no power in #1. Removing the plug revealed that the valve right below the spark plug is permanently open. The engine is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. >> >> >>The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been rebuilt by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck valves. In that case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were not new nor were the guides and it was a water leak between the guides and the head that caused the sticking valves. He also said the head, which was said to be new, was not new and had not been surfaced. >> >> >>I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs to be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If there was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. >> >> >>Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I take the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? Looking for guidance. >> >> >>Thanks. >> >> >>Allen >>No virus found in this message. >>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ >>Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3614/6761 - Release Date: 10/18/13 >-- >Joe DeMers - owner >Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com >phone & fax (860) 666-2184

Thanks. I spent about a year bringing this machine back from the dead. I forgot, it is my 1950 machine. I love the sound of the old slow turn diesels. Here are some photos from a Steam and Gas exhibit I attended. Somewhere in the album is me and my machine. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.248401038536830.61282.100001008077559&type=1&l=bcee5bfb7e This album is a bunch of pics when I was loading this old logging arch onto my trailer using my 1949 machine. I had sold the arch and was going to deliver it to some other 'hobbiest' (yes, we are crazy). The arch barely fit regarding the width of the tires. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.338244519552481.78311.100001008077559&type=1&l=439f235f7b On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Tom Vandiver <bs… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > That is a hard working old beauty! > I had an older Allis Chalmers HD-6, (like the ones in the movie, "Fighting > Seabees" powered by a Detroit 2-71 when we lived in Sonoma County for > working the vineyard. It was a joy and the sound was wonderful. Of course, > it was named "Duke". > > Amazing what Cal Boat owners do or have done. > > Tom Vandiver, Cal 46, "Satori" Bayou Chico, Florida > > *From:* Leslie Newman <d2… [at] gmail.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2013 8:17 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve > ** > > I have 1949 Caterpillar diesels that run better than new, so new engine > with warranty never enters my mind :).****[image: Inline image 1]** > **** > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com>wrote: > ** > > ** > > ** ***** Here are your options - > > 1] run the engine as is, slowly. Since there is no compression in one > cylinder, this option should work OK, assuming settled weather. > > 2] get towed by a friend, by your dink with outboard, or by a > professional service. > > 3] sail there. > > 4] Take the head off for a professional inspection, and fix the sticky > valve problem. > > The ultimate fix is to install a new engine, with warranty. > > Joe DeMers > ** > On 10/17/2013 8:55 PM, Allen Edwards wrote: > > I have a wonderful article by Joe on my website that basically advises to > replace rather than rebuild. I should have listened. I sent my engine > back to NJ and, other than leaks of gas, oil, and water, all went well. > Until today. After 50 hours on the engine it didn't sound right and upon > further investigation found no power in #1. Removing the plug revealed > that the valve right below the spark plug is permanently open. The engine > is a Gray Marine 112 4 cylinder flat head. > > The local mechanic says he did an identical engine that had been rebuilt > by the same famous NJ Gray Marine builder that had stuck valves. In that > case, my local mechanic claims that the valves were not new nor were the > guides and it was a water leak between the guides and the head that caused > the sticking valves. He also said the head, which was said to be new, was > not new and had not been surfaced. > > I am not feeling so good. I have a boat 20 miles from where it needs to > be to get it repaired with and engine that runs on 3 cylinders. If there > was wind this time of year I could sail over but it has been calm. > > Anyone have relevant experience? Joe - what should I do? Should I take > the head off? Get towed over there? Run it on 3 cylinders? Looking for > guidance. > > Thanks. > > Allen > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/ > Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3614/6761 - Release Date: 10/18/13 > > ** > -- ** > *Joe DeMers - owner* > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184* > > ** > **** >

The cylinders and valves were black so clearly the engine was running very rich. I did not see any rust so am doubting the water theory myself. I guess it would be possible to remove the valve with the boat at the dock but that risks not being able to even run it if I can't get it back together for some reason like I drop something and something gets stuck. If I take it to Berkeley they will pull the engine and take it apart looking for water ingress or clogged oil and that would be a waste of time and money if it is only carbon on the valve. Then again, if it is just carbon then I should be able to free it with some penetrating oil. Has anyone had success doing this? Advice? Allen

Here is that the Gray manual says: Valve Sticking: This condition, which is no stranger to all types of automotive service, may be due to any one or more of a number of causes. They are mostly variables over which an engine manufacturer has no control. These include (1) running the engine too cold, (2) improper lubrication, (3) too close a fit between valve stem and guide, (4) gum or carbon formation on valve stems, (5) rust in the valve guides, (6) kick-back of overflow water from exhaust, or condensation condition. When this condition may occur, do not jump to the conclusion that your trouble is something rare or unusual, or that your engine is defective; there is probably some other simple cause. Rust occurs more frequently in marine installations, and varnish-like guns develop under certain conditions in all types of service. For related reasons, valve sticking is especially prevalent with engines which have just been put into service, engines which are operated at slow speeds, or engines which are operated only intermittently. It doesn't, however, say how to unstick them. Allen On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > The cylinders and valves were black so clearly the engine was running very > rich. I did not see any rust so am doubting the water theory myself. I > guess it would be possible to remove the valve with the boat at the dock > but that risks not being able to even run it if I can't get it back > together for some reason like I drop something and something gets stuck. > If I take it to Berkeley they will pull the engine and take it apart > looking for water ingress or clogged oil and that would be a waste of time > and money if it is only carbon on the valve. Then again, if it is just > carbon then I should be able to free it with some penetrating oil. Has > anyone had success doing this? Advice? > > > Allen > > >

Allen...sometimes (on A4s) if you engine does not start right away and you crank and crank and your raw water TH is open you can get salt water into exhaust...which can cause ex valve to stick open later...also a broken spring or popped keeper will cause valve to remain open 1st pull off side cover inspect spring ...(edward) From: Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve The cylinders and valves were black so clearly the engine was running very rich. I did not see any rust so am doubting the water theory myself. I guess it would be possible to remove the valve with the boat at the dock but that risks not being able to even run it if I can't get it back together for some reason like I drop something and something gets stuck. If I take it to Berkeley they will pull the engine and take it apart looking for water ingress or clogged oil and that would be a waste of time and money if it is only carbon on the valve. Then again, if it is just carbon then I should be able to free it with some penetrating oil. Has anyone had success doing this? Advice? Allen

Well, carb cleaner works good and you could direct the spray around the valve. You mean to try and work through the spark plug hole I take it. Seems like if you can see the valve maybe you could get some cleaner to wash around it as you spray. Maybe lightly (lightly !) tap the valve, see if you can get it to move. Take all the plugs out and you can more easily spin the motor over. You could rock the motor once it's turned so as to be moving the valve. Once the valve is moving, rock the motor to move the valve in and out some. Or I guess you could move the piston so it is near the top of stroke, then put a large quantity of some type cleaner down in the cylinder through the plug hole making sure you are soaking the valve and and let it sit for a bit. Then try to get the valve moving. Then suck the cleaner back out. Maybe change the oil if any of this ends up contaminating the crankcase oil. On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > ** > > > The cylinders and valves were black so clearly the engine was running very > rich. I did not see any rust so am doubting the water theory myself. I > guess it would be possible to remove the valve with the boat at the dock > but that risks not being able to even run it if I can't get it back > together for some reason like I drop something and something gets stuck. > If I take it to Berkeley they will pull the engine and take it apart > looking for water ingress or clogged oil and that would be a waste of time > and money if it is only carbon on the valve. Then again, if it is just > carbon then I should be able to free it with some penetrating oil. Has > anyone had success doing this? Advice? > > > Allen > > > >

A friend of mine changed the valves on his A-4 this past spring, he had to pull the engine to get the machining done on the valve seats But did the rest of the work himself. He had been working with Moyer marine for parts and was advised, that since the A4 was designed to run on leaded gas, to add Marvel Mystery Oil to his gas in order to lubricate the valves. BTW before he started to repair the engine he ran it for an entire season after he noticed that he had less power than normal. You may want to contact Moyer Marine. This is the limit of my knowledge about gas engines. John B Cal 227 diesel powered From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Allen Edwards Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 11:49 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve Here is that the Gray manual says: Valve Sticking: This condition, which is no stranger to all types of automotive service, may be due to any one or more of a number of causes. They are mostly variables over which an engine manufacturer has no control. These include (1) running the engine too cold, (2) improper lubrication, (3) too close a fit between valve stem and guide, (4) gum or carbon formation on valve stems, (5) rust in the valve guides, (6) kick-back of overflow water from exhaust, or condensation condition. When this condition may occur, do not jump to the conclusion that your trouble is something rare or unusual, or that your engine is defective; there is probably some other simple cause. Rust occurs more frequently in marine installations, and varnish-like guns develop under certain conditions in all types of service. For related reasons, valve sticking is especially prevalent with engines which have just been put into service, engines which are operated at slow speeds, or engines which are operated only intermittently. It doesn't, however, say how to unstick them. Allen On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> wrote: The cylinders and valves were black so clearly the engine was running very rich. I did not see any rust so am doubting the water theory myself. I guess it would be possible to remove the valve with the boat at the dock but that risks not being able to even run it if I can't get it back together for some reason like I drop something and something gets stuck. If I take it to Berkeley they will pull the engine and take it apart looking for water ingress or clogged oil and that would be a waste of time and money if it is only carbon on the valve. Then again, if it is just carbon then I should be able to free it with some penetrating oil. Has anyone had success doing this? Advice? Allen

I went down to the boat today an gave it another squirt of PB Blaster and a light tap on a 1/4 inch dowel and the valve went snap back where it belongs. Turned the engine over and it stayed free. Ran for 1 hour at load, adjusted the high speed jet 1/2 turn in and crossed my fingers that it will stay OK. Thanks to everyone for the advice. Allen On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:21 AM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > ** > > > A friend of mine changed the valves on his A-4 this past spring, he had to > pull the engine to get the machining done on the valve seats**** > > But did the rest of the work himself. He had been working with Moyer > marine for parts and was advised, that since the A4 was designed to run on > leaded gas, to add Marvel Mystery Oil to his gas in order to lubricate the > valves. **** > > ** ** > > BTW before he started to repair the engine he ran it for an entire season > after he noticed that he had less power than normal.**** > > ** ** > > You may want to contact Moyer Marine.**** > > ** ** > > This is the limit of my knowledge about gas engines.**** > > ** ** > > John B**** > > Cal 227 diesel powered**** > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Allen Edwards > *Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2013 11:49 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve**** > > ** ** > > **** > > Here is that the Gray manual says:**** > > ** ** > > Valve Sticking: This condition, which is no stranger to all types of > automotive service, may be due to any one or more of a number of causes. > They are mostly variables over which an engine manufacturer has no > control. These include (1) running the engine too cold, (2) improper > lubrication, (3) too close a fit between valve stem and guide, (4) gum or > carbon formation on valve stems, (5) rust in the valve guides, (6) > kick-back of overflow water from exhaust, or condensation condition.**** > > ** ** > > When this condition may occur, do not jump to the conclusion that your > trouble is something rare or unusual, or that your engine is defective; > there is probably some other simple cause. Rust occurs more frequently in > marine installations, and varnish-like guns develop under certain > conditions in all types of service. For related reasons, valve sticking is > especially prevalent with engines which have just been put into service, > engines which are operated at slow speeds, or engines which are operated > only intermittently.**** > > **** > > It doesn't, however, say how to unstick them.**** > > ** ** > > Allen **** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> > wrote:**** > > The cylinders and valves were black so clearly the engine was running very > rich. I did not see any rust so am doubting the water theory myself. I > guess it would be possible to remove the valve with the boat at the dock > but that risks not being able to even run it if I can't get it back > together for some reason like I drop something and something gets stuck. > If I take it to Berkeley they will pull the engine and take it apart > looking for water ingress or clogged oil and that would be a waste of time > and money if it is only carbon on the valve. Then again, if it is just > carbon then I should be able to free it with some penetrating oil. Has > anyone had success doing this? Advice?**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Allen**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > **** > > >

Congrats! It's always satisfying when you can fix it yourself. On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com>wrote: > ** > > > I went down to the boat today an gave it another squirt of PB Blaster and > a light tap on a 1/4 inch dowel and the valve went snap back where it > belongs. Turned the engine over and it stayed free. Ran for 1 hour at > load, adjusted the high speed jet 1/2 turn in and crossed my fingers that > it will stay OK. > > Thanks to everyone for the advice. > > Allen > > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:21 AM, John Boyce <je… [at] gmail.com> wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> A friend of mine changed the valves on his A-4 this past spring, he had >> to pull the engine to get the machining done on the valve seats**** >> >> But did the rest of the work himself. He had been working with Moyer >> marine for parts and was advised, that since the A4 was designed to run on >> leaded gas, to add Marvel Mystery Oil to his gas in order to lubricate the >> valves. **** >> >> ** ** >> >> BTW before he started to repair the engine he ran it for an entire season >> after he noticed that he had less power than normal.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> You may want to contact Moyer Marine.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> This is the limit of my knowledge about gas engines.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> John B**** >> >> Cal 227 diesel powered**** >> >> *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] *On >> Behalf Of *Allen Edwards >> *Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2013 11:49 AM >> *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Stuck Valve**** >> >> ** ** >> >> **** >> >> Here is that the Gray manual says:**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Valve Sticking: This condition, which is no stranger to all types of >> automotive service, may be due to any one or more of a number of causes. >> They are mostly variables over which an engine manufacturer has no >> control. These include (1) running the engine too cold, (2) improper >> lubrication, (3) too close a fit between valve stem and guide, (4) gum or >> carbon formation on valve stems, (5) rust in the valve guides, (6) >> kick-back of overflow water from exhaust, or condensation condition.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> When this condition may occur, do not jump to the conclusion that your >> trouble is something rare or unusual, or that your engine is defective; >> there is probably some other simple cause. Rust occurs more frequently in >> marine installations, and varnish-like guns develop under certain >> conditions in all types of service. For related reasons, valve sticking is >> especially prevalent with engines which have just been put into service, >> engines which are operated at slow speeds, or engines which are operated >> only intermittently.**** >> >> **** >> >> It doesn't, however, say how to unstick them.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Allen **** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Allen Edwards <al… [at] gmail.com> >> wrote:**** >> >> The cylinders and valves were black so clearly the engine was running >> very rich. I did not see any rust so am doubting the water theory myself. >> I guess it would be possible to remove the valve with the boat at the dock >> but that risks not being able to even run it if I can't get it back >> together for some reason like I drop something and something gets stuck. >> If I take it to Berkeley they will pull the engine and take it apart >> looking for water ingress or clogged oil and that would be a waste of time >> and money if it is only carbon on the valve. Then again, if it is just >> carbon then I should be able to free it with some penetrating oil. Has >> anyone had success doing this? Advice?**** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> Allen**** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> **** >> >> > >