Re: [Cal_Boats] Moeller Permanent Fuel Tanks - Experience?

With a PROPERLY installed permanent (below decks) fuel tank there should be no fumes present in the compartment. If you get fumes escaping, something is wrong. The tank will need to be securely held in place, vented overboard and the fill fitting be located above decks, preferably where any spills will be directed overboard. You could use a combined fill and vent fitting above decks to avoid needing 2 fittings. You should use only USCG approved fuel lines of the type approved for use on an inboard engine (might be "over-kill", but worth the extra $), The tank can be in a common compartment with electrical items as long as the compartment is properly ventilated. Ideally, those electrical components should be "ignition-proof" anyway, even though you have an outboard. A cover over the back side of the electrical panel enclosing the wiring will help, but not necessarily required. Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 Was: "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 #285 (24 years experience as a USCGAUX Vessel Examiner) On 14 Jan 2015 12:04:55 -0800 "er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, using, and thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel tanks. http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tan ks/ I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I would be using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan 9.8 hp outboard. I like the below deck option because I will then be able to install the appropriate fuel & water filters below the cockpit. My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion hazard, since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the fuel tank. My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly I should also install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank to isolate any fuel fumes from the electrical system. At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group about these tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. Many thanks Erik Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 Seattle, WA What's your flood risk? Find flood maps, interactive tools, FAQs, and agents in your area. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/54b70ac3a4bfdac378c6st01duc

Joe, there is no USCG requirement for a bilge blower in this case (not a bad Idea to have one, but NOT required on an outboard OR Diesel powered vessel). As long as the tank is properly vented overboard and filled through an above-deck fill that is sealed to the deck to prevent leaking around it, a below deck fuel tank is OK. If there are no electrical systems in the same compartment no ventilation of that compartment is needed, however ventilation (Natural) is required if electrical components are present in that compartment. Still, no blower is required. However, I would DEFINITELY sniff pretty hard before even thinking about lighting the galley stove! Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 was: NODROG" 1979 CAL 21 #285 (24 years experience USCGAUX Vessel Examiner) On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:21:32 -0500 "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: Here's some random thoughts - Any fuel filters must be located in the cockpit area, so fumes [ as when changing filters] go overboard, NOT below. You should also have a shut off valve & a check valve located on the fuel tank, to control the fuel flow to the engine. These last 2 items are USCG requirements for gasoline powered boats with below deck fuel tanks. All hoses that attach to the tank MUST BE USCG grade A1, no exceptions ! You also need a blower, correctly installed, AND it MUST BE operated correctly ! Please see below for more comments ************* Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 1/14/2015 3:04 PM, er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, using, and thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel tanks. http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tan ks/ I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I would be using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan 9.8 hp outboard. I like the below deck option because ********** Erik said - I will then be able to install the appropriate fuel & water filters below the cockpit. *********** VERY BAD IDEA ! and dangerous ! Joe D My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion hazard, ******** You should be VERY concerned, as blowing up just ONCE can be fatal. May I suggest you install this fuel system to ABYC standards? Click here - https://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#H2 H-24 (ANS) � Gasoline Fuel Systems This standard is a guide for the design, choice of materials for, construction, installation, repair, and maintenance of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems. Portable Gasoline fuel systems are covered by ABYC H-25, "Portable Gasoline Fuel Systems". The United States Coast Guard has promulgated mandatory requirements for gasoline fuel systems in 33 CFR, Subpart J, Sections 183.501 - 183.590. Refer to the CFR for complete, current federal requirements. The Environmental Protection Agency has promulgated regulations regarding the evaporative and diurnal emissions for gasoline spark ignition marine engines and fuel systems. These regulations can be found in 40 CFR chapter 1060. This standard applies to all parts of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems from the fuel fill opening to the point of connection to the propulsion engine and/or to any auxiliary equipment on all boats with gasoline engines, excluding onboard refueling systems. Standard History: First PublishedRevised Dates 19731975 1984 1989 1993 1996 2005 2007 2009 2010 2012 since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the fuel tank. My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly I should also install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank to isolate any fuel fumes from the electrical system. ******** All non standard, and not recommended. At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group about these tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. Many thanks Erik Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 Seattle, WA -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.comphone & fax (860) 666-2184 What's your flood risk? Find flood maps, interactive tools, FAQs, and agents in your area. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/54b70d0c46524d0c4415st01duc

Hi, I've been considering the same sort of change. In October, we became new owners of a '73 Cal 27-1 with a 15HP Honda outboard permanently installed on a bracket, with remote shift/throttle controls located in the cockpit. I don't feel comfortable with the current fuel setup: fuel lines routed into the starboard under-seat locker to one of those new Atwood "ventless EPA" tanks. Being out of the sun there, it doesn't get pressurized like it would sitting on deck, but it seems to me that it still could somehow vent itself below deck. For the short time we had the boat in the water, I did not store the tank on the boat when not in use. It seems like there would be a several spots to install a permanent, vented tank. There is a huge, open area aft of the companionway - where an inboard engine might be on some boats. That seems like a natural spot, except that it's essentially part of the cabin. The starboard under-seat locker is another spot, and it's isolated from the cabin, but that is much more valuable storage space than the spot in the cabin. Was the 27-1 ever built with an inboard? If so, where would the fuel tank and fill have been? And,maybe a silly question, but when installing a permanent tank for an outboard, do people typically still include a primer bulb somewhere in the supply line? Thanks, Doug Fitz-Randolph Freeport, ME On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:41 PM, rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > >  > Joe, there is no USCG requirement for a bilge blower in this case (not a > bad Idea to have one, but *NOT* required on an outboard OR Diesel powered > vessel). > As long as the tank is properly vented overboard and filled through an > above-deck fill that is sealed to the deck to prevent leaking around it, a > below deck fuel tank is OK. If there are no electrical systems in the same > compartment no ventilation of that compartment is needed, however > ventilation (Natural) is required if electrical components are present in > that compartment. Still, no blower is required. However, I would DEFINITELY > sniff pretty hard before even thinking about lighting the galley stove! > > Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" > 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 > was: NODROG" 1979 CAL 21 #285 > (24 years experience USCGAUX Vessel Examiner) > > On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:21:32 -0500 "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com > [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: > > > > Here's some random thoughts - > > Any fuel filters must be located in the cockpit area, so fumes [ as when > changing filters] go overboard, NOT below. You should also have a shut off > valve & a check valve located on the fuel tank, to control the fuel flow to > the engine. These last 2 items are USCG requirements for gasoline powered > boats with below deck fuel tanks. > > All hoses that attach to the tank MUST BE USCG grade A1, no exceptions ! > You also need a blower, correctly installed, AND it MUST BE operated > correctly ! > > Please see below for more comments ************* > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & fax > (860) 666-2184 <%28860%29%20666-2184>* > > On 1/14/2015 3:04 PM, er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, using, and > thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel tanks. > http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tanks/ > > > I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I would be > using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan 9.8 hp outboard. I > like the below deck option because > > > > ********** Erik said - I will then be able to install the appropriate > fuel & water filters below the cockpit. > > *********** VERY BAD IDEA ! and dangerous ! Joe D > > > My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion hazard, > > > ******** You should be VERY concerned, as blowing up just ONCE can be > fatal. May I suggest you install this fuel system to ABYC standards? Click > here - > > https://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#H2 > > H-24 (ANS) — Gasoline Fuel Systems > > This standard is a guide for the design, choice of materials for, > construction, installation, repair, and maintenance of permanently > installed gasoline fuel systems. > > 1. Portable Gasoline fuel systems are covered by ABYC H-25, "Portable > Gasoline Fuel Systems". > 2. The United States Coast Guard has promulgated mandatory > requirements for gasoline fuel systems in 33 CFR, Subpart J, Sections > 183.501 - 183.590. Refer to the CFR for complete, current federal > requirements. > 3. The Environmental Protection Agency has promulgated regulations > regarding the evaporative and diurnal emissions for gasoline spark ignition > marine engines and fuel systems. These regulations can be found in 40 CFR > chapter 1060. > > > This standard applies to all parts of permanently installed gasoline fuel > systems from the fuel fill opening to the point of connection to the > propulsion engine and/or to any auxiliary equipment on all boats with > gasoline engines, excluding onboard refueling systems. > > *Standard History:* > *First Published* *Revised Dates* 1973 1975 > 1984 > 1989 > 1993 > 1996 > 2005 > 2007 > 2009 > 2010 > 2012 > > > > since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the fuel > tank. My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly I should also > install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank to isolate any fuel > fumes from the electrical system. > > > ******** All non standard, and not recommended. > > > At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group about these > tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. > > > Many thanks > > Erik > > Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 > > Seattle, WA > > > > > > -- > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & fax > (860) 666-2184* > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *What's your flood risk?* > Find flood maps, interactive tools, FAQs, and agents in your area. > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/54b70d0c46524d0c4415st01duc> > floodsmart.gov > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/54b70d0c46524d0c4415st01duc> > > >

I replaced my old steel tank with one of these plastic tanks. Replaced every piece of the fuel system, every hose, every clamp, the filter. In my case, with an inboard, this really is a question of what kind of tank, not if there is one. I researched it quite a big and having had a steel tank develop a hole, I am not a fan. Lots of issues with aluminum tanks if you read the literature. So plastic it was and so far it has not blown up. Getting it to fit was a bitch though and the 1/4 inch misalignment of the filler hose with almost no clearance caused some issues that I can't recall how I solved. I guess I moved the filler up an a bit with a teak piece. Filler is in the cockpit. Gasoline is only dangerous if you ignite the fumes so just don't do that and you will be fine :-) And remember, the nose knows. Smell around before making any sparks. I personally would put in a blower just so you get get the air up where you can smell it. On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Doug Fitz-Randolph do… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > > I've been considering the same sort of change. In October, we became new > owners of a '73 Cal 27-1 with a 15HP Honda outboard permanently installed > on a bracket, with remote shift/throttle controls located in the cockpit. I > don't feel comfortable with the current fuel setup: fuel lines routed into > the starboard under-seat locker to one of those new Atwood "ventless EPA" > tanks. Being out of the sun there, it doesn't get pressurized like it would > sitting on deck, but it seems to me that it still could somehow vent itself > below deck. For the short time we had the boat in the water, I did not > store the tank on the boat when not in use. > > It seems like there would be a several spots to install a permanent, > vented tank. There is a huge, open area aft of the companionway - where an > inboard engine might be on some boats. That seems like a natural spot, > except that it's essentially part of the cabin. The starboard under-seat > locker is another spot, and it's isolated from the cabin, but that is much > more valuable storage space than the spot in the cabin. > > Was the 27-1 ever built with an inboard? If so, where would the fuel tank > and fill have been? And,maybe a silly question, but when installing a > permanent tank for an outboard, do people typically still include a primer > bulb somewhere in the supply line? > > Thanks, > Doug Fitz-Randolph > Freeport, ME > > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:41 PM, rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats] < > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > >> >> >>  >> Joe, there is no USCG requirement for a bilge blower in this case (not a >> bad Idea to have one, but *NOT* required on an outboard OR >> Diesel powered vessel). >> As long as the tank is properly vented overboard and filled through an >> above-deck fill that is sealed to the deck to prevent leaking around it, a >> below deck fuel tank is OK. If there are no electrical systems in the same >> compartment no ventilation of that compartment is needed, however >> ventilation (Natural) is required if electrical components are present in >> that compartment. Still, no blower is required. However, I would DEFINITELY >> sniff pretty hard before even thinking about lighting the galley stove! >> >> Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >> 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 >> was: NODROG" 1979 CAL 21 #285 >> (24 years experience USCGAUX Vessel Examiner) >> >> On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:21:32 -0500 "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com >> [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: >> >> >> >> Here's some random thoughts - >> >> Any fuel filters must be located in the cockpit area, so fumes [ as when >> changing filters] go overboard, NOT below. You should also have a shut off >> valve & a check valve located on the fuel tank, to control the fuel flow to >> the engine. These last 2 items are USCG requirements for gasoline powered >> boats with below deck fuel tanks. >> >> All hoses that attach to the tank MUST BE USCG grade A1, no exceptions ! >> You also need a blower, correctly installed, AND it MUST BE operated >> correctly ! >> >> Please see below for more comments ************* >> >> *Joe DeMers - owner* >> >> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & fax >> (860) 666-2184 <%28860%29%20666-2184>* >> >> On 1/14/2015 3:04 PM, er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> >> I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, using, and >> thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel tanks. >> http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tanks/ >> >> >> I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I would be >> using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan 9.8 hp outboard. I >> like the below deck option because >> >> >> >> ********** Erik said - I will then be able to install the appropriate >> fuel & water filters below the cockpit. >> >> *********** VERY BAD IDEA ! and dangerous ! Joe D >> >> >> My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion hazard, >> >> >> ******** You should be VERY concerned, as blowing up just ONCE can be >> fatal. May I suggest you install this fuel system to ABYC standards? Click >> here - >> >> https://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#H2 >> >> H-24 (ANS) — Gasoline Fuel Systems >> >> This standard is a guide for the design, choice of materials for, >> construction, installation, repair, and maintenance of permanently >> installed gasoline fuel systems. >> >> 1. Portable Gasoline fuel systems are covered by ABYC H-25, "Portable >> Gasoline Fuel Systems". >> 2. The United States Coast Guard has promulgated mandatory >> requirements for gasoline fuel systems in 33 CFR, Subpart J, Sections >> 183.501 - 183.590. Refer to the CFR for complete, current federal >> requirements. >> 3. The Environmental Protection Agency has promulgated regulations >> regarding the evaporative and diurnal emissions for gasoline spark ignition >> marine engines and fuel systems. These regulations can be found in 40 CFR >> chapter 1060. >> >> >> This standard applies to all parts of permanently installed gasoline fuel >> systems from the fuel fill opening to the point of connection to the >> propulsion engine and/or to any auxiliary equipment on all boats with >> gasoline engines, excluding onboard refueling systems. >> >> *Standard History:* >> *First Published* *Revised Dates* 1973 1975 >> 1984 >> 1989 >> 1993 >> 1996 >> 2005 >> 2007 >> 2009 >> 2010 >> 2012 >> >> >> >> since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the fuel >> tank. My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly I should also >> install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank to isolate any fuel >> fumes from the electrical system. >> >> >> ******** All non standard, and not recommended. >> >> >> At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group about >> these tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. >> >> >> Many thanks >> >> Erik >> >> Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 >> >> Seattle, WA >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Joe DeMers - owner* >> >> Sound Marine Diesel LLC >> SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & fax >> (860) 666-2184* >> >> >> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> *What's your flood risk?* >> Find flood maps, interactive tools, FAQs, and agents in your area. >> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/54b70d0c46524d0c4415st01duc> >> floodsmart.gov >> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/54b70d0c46524d0c4415st01duc> >> >> > >

should there be a blower installed also? very clear and useful information, thanks, good question too. Helen On Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:37 PM, "Allen Edwards al… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: I replaced my old steel tank with one of these plastic tanks. Replaced every piece of the fuel system, every hose, every clamp, the filter. In my case, with an inboard, this really is a question of what kind of tank, not if there is one. I researched it quite a big and having had a steel tank develop a hole, I am not a fan. Lots of issues with aluminum tanks if you read the literature. So plastic it was and so far it has not blown up. Getting it to fit was a bitch though and the 1/4 inch misalignment of the filler hose with almost no clearance caused some issues that I can't recall how I solved. I guess I moved the filler up an a bit with a teak piece. Filler is in the cockpit. Gasoline is only dangerous if you ignite the fumes so just don't do that and you will be fine :-) And remember, the nose knows. Smell around before making any sparks. I personally would put in a blower just so you get get the air up where you can smell it. On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Doug Fitz-Randolph do… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > >Hi, > > >I've been considering the same sort of change. In October, we became new owners of a '73 Cal 27-1 with a 15HP Honda outboard permanently installed on a bracket, with remote shift/throttle controls located in the cockpit. I don't feel comfortable with the current fuel setup: fuel lines routed into the starboard under-seat locker to one of those new Atwood "ventless EPA" tanks. Being out of the sun there, it doesn't get pressurized like it would sitting on deck, but it seems to me that it still could somehow vent itself below deck. For the short time we had the boat in the water, I did not store the tank on the boat when not in use. > > >It seems like there would be a several spots to install a permanent, vented tank. There is a huge, open area aft of the companionway - where an inboard engine might be on some boats. That seems like a natural spot, except that it's essentially part of the cabin. The starboard under-seat locker is another spot, and it's isolated from the cabin, but that is much more valuable storage space than the spot in the cabin. > > >Was the 27-1 ever built with an inboard? If so, where would the fuel tank and fill have been? And,maybe a silly question, but when installing a permanent tank for an outboard, do people typically still include a primer bulb somewhere in the supply line? > > >Thanks, >Doug Fitz-Randolph >Freeport, ME > > >On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:41 PM, rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > >> >> >>Joe, there is no USCG requirement for a bilge blower in this case (not a bad Idea to have one, but NOT required on an outboard OR Diesel powered vessel). >>As long as the tank is properly vented overboard and filled through an above-deck fill that is sealed to the deck to prevent leaking around it, a below deck fuel tank is OK. If there are no electrical systems in the same compartment no ventilation of that compartment is needed, however ventilation (Natural) is required if electrical components are present in that compartment. Still, no blower is required. However, I would DEFINITELY sniff pretty hard before even thinking about lighting the galley stove! >> >>Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >>1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 >>was: NODROG" 1979 CAL 21 #285 >>(24 years experience USCGAUX Vessel Examiner) >> >>On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:21:32 -0500 "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: >> >>>Here's some random thoughts - >>> >>>Any fuel filters must be located in the cockpit area, so fumes [ as when changing filters] go overboard, NOT below. You should also have a shut off valve & a check valve located on the fuel tank, to control the fuel flow to the engine. These last 2 items are USCG requirements for gasoline powered boats with below deck fuel tanks. >>> >>>All hoses that attach to the tank MUST BE USCG grade A1, no exceptions ! You also need a blower, correctly installed, AND it MUST BE operated correctly ! >>> >>>Please see below for more comments ************* >>> >>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>> >>> >>>On 1/14/2015 3:04 PM, er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: >>> >>>Hi everyone, >>>> >>>> >>>>I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, using, and thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel tanks. http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tanks/ >>>> >>>> >>>>I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I would be using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan 9.8 hp outboard. I like the below deck option because >>> >>> >>>********** Erik said - I will then be able to install the appropriate fuel & water filters below the cockpit.*********** VERY BAD IDEA ! and dangerous ! Joe D >>> >>> >>>> >>>>My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion hazard, >>>******** You should be VERY concerned, as blowing up just ONCE can be fatal. May I suggest you install this fuel system to ABYC standards? Click here - >>> >>>https://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#H2 >>> >>> >>>H-24 (ANS) — Gasoline Fuel Systems >>>This standard is a guide for the design, choice of materials for, construction, installation, repair, and maintenance of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems. >>> 1. Portable Gasoline fuel systems are covered by ABYC H-25, "Portable Gasoline Fuel Systems". >>> >>> 2. The United States Coast Guard has promulgated mandatory requirements for gasoline fuel systems in 33 CFR, Subpart J, Sections 183.501 - 183.590. Refer to the CFR for complete, current federal requirements. >>> >>> 3. The Environmental Protection Agency has promulgated regulations regarding the evaporative and diurnal emissions for gasoline spark ignition marine engines and fuel systems. These regulations can be found in 40 CFR chapter 1060. >>> >>> >>>This standard applies to all parts of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems from the fuel fill opening to the point of connection to the propulsion engine and/or to any auxiliary equipment on all boats with gasoline engines, excluding onboard refueling systems. >>>Standard History: >>>First Published Revised Dates >>>1973 1975 >>>1984 >>>1989 >>>1993 >>>1996 >>>2005 >>>2007 >>>2009 >>>2010 >>>2012 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the fuel tank. My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly I should also install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank to isolate any fuel fumes from the electrical system. >>>> >>>******** All non standard, and not recommended. >>> >>> >>>> >>>>At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group about these tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. >>>> >>>> >>>>Many thanks >>>>Erik >>>>Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 >>>>Seattle, WA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>-- >>> >>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.comphone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>> >> >>____________________________________________________________ >>What's your flood risk? >>Find flood maps, interactive tools, FAQs, and agents in your area. >>floodsmart.gov >

my pc is way behind, sorry,,Helen(me too). we are replacing our fuel tank also this spring, gasoline still for the A4, and we acquired a stainless tank about half the size of the original rusted out one. seems the rust solution would be eliminated with plastic, as the rustiest part was the bottom corner where water and or condensation seemed to never go away. (cal 36, port bilge under settee.) On Thursday, January 15, 2015 12:36 AM, Helen Horn <he… [at] sbcglobal.net> wrote: should there be a blower installed also? very clear and useful information, thanks, good question too. Helen On Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:37 PM, "Allen Edwards al… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: I replaced my old steel tank with one of these plastic tanks. Replaced every piece of the fuel system, every hose, every clamp, the filter. In my case, with an inboard, this really is a question of what kind of tank, not if there is one. I researched it quite a big and having had a steel tank develop a hole, I am not a fan. Lots of issues with aluminum tanks if you read the literature. So plastic it was and so far it has not blown up. Getting it to fit was a bitch though and the 1/4 inch misalignment of the filler hose with almost no clearance caused some issues that I can't recall how I solved. I guess I moved the filler up an a bit with a teak piece. Filler is in the cockpit. Gasoline is only dangerous if you ignite the fumes so just don't do that and you will be fine :-) And remember, the nose knows. Smell around before making any sparks. I personally would put in a blower just so you get get the air up where you can smell it. On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Doug Fitz-Randolph do… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > >Hi, > > >I've been considering the same sort of change. In October, we became new owners of a '73 Cal 27-1 with a 15HP Honda outboard permanently installed on a bracket, with remote shift/throttle controls located in the cockpit. I don't feel comfortable with the current fuel setup: fuel lines routed into the starboard under-seat locker to one of those new Atwood "ventless EPA" tanks. Being out of the sun there, it doesn't get pressurized like it would sitting on deck, but it seems to me that it still could somehow vent itself below deck. For the short time we had the boat in the water, I did not store the tank on the boat when not in use. > > >It seems like there would be a several spots to install a permanent, vented tank. There is a huge, open area aft of the companionway - where an inboard engine might be on some boats. That seems like a natural spot, except that it's essentially part of the cabin. The starboard under-seat locker is another spot, and it's isolated from the cabin, but that is much more valuable storage space than the spot in the cabin. > > >Was the 27-1 ever built with an inboard? If so, where would the fuel tank and fill have been? And,maybe a silly question, but when installing a permanent tank for an outboard, do people typically still include a primer bulb somewhere in the supply line? > > >Thanks, >Doug Fitz-Randolph >Freeport, ME > > >On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:41 PM, rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > >> >> >>Joe, there is no USCG requirement for a bilge blower in this case (not a bad Idea to have one, but NOT required on an outboard OR Diesel powered vessel). >>As long as the tank is properly vented overboard and filled through an above-deck fill that is sealed to the deck to prevent leaking around it, a below deck fuel tank is OK. If there are no electrical systems in the same compartment no ventilation of that compartment is needed, however ventilation (Natural) is required if electrical components are present in that compartment. Still, no blower is required. However, I would DEFINITELY sniff pretty hard before even thinking about lighting the galley stove! >> >>Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" >>1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 >>was: NODROG" 1979 CAL 21 #285 >>(24 years experience USCGAUX Vessel Examiner) >> >>On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:21:32 -0500 "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: >> >>>Here's some random thoughts - >>> >>>Any fuel filters must be located in the cockpit area, so fumes [ as when changing filters] go overboard, NOT below. You should also have a shut off valve & a check valve located on the fuel tank, to control the fuel flow to the engine. These last 2 items are USCG requirements for gasoline powered boats with below deck fuel tanks. >>> >>>All hoses that attach to the tank MUST BE USCG grade A1, no exceptions ! You also need a blower, correctly installed, AND it MUST BE operated correctly ! >>> >>>Please see below for more comments ************* >>> >>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>> >>> >>>On 1/14/2015 3:04 PM, er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: >>> >>>Hi everyone, >>>> >>>> >>>>I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, using, and thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel tanks. http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tanks/ >>>> >>>> >>>>I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I would be using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan 9.8 hp outboard. I like the below deck option because >>> >>> >>>********** Erik said - I will then be able to install the appropriate fuel & water filters below the cockpit.*********** VERY BAD IDEA ! and dangerous ! Joe D >>> >>> >>>> >>>>My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion hazard, >>>******** You should be VERY concerned, as blowing up just ONCE can be fatal. May I suggest you install this fuel system to ABYC standards? Click here - >>> >>>https://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#H2 >>> >>> >>>H-24 (ANS) — Gasoline Fuel Systems >>>This standard is a guide for the design, choice of materials for, construction, installation, repair, and maintenance of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems. >>> 1. Portable Gasoline fuel systems are covered by ABYC H-25, "Portable Gasoline Fuel Systems". >>> >>> 2. The United States Coast Guard has promulgated mandatory requirements for gasoline fuel systems in 33 CFR, Subpart J, Sections 183.501 - 183.590. Refer to the CFR for complete, current federal requirements. >>> >>> 3. The Environmental Protection Agency has promulgated regulations regarding the evaporative and diurnal emissions for gasoline spark ignition marine engines and fuel systems. These regulations can be found in 40 CFR chapter 1060. >>> >>> >>>This standard applies to all parts of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems from the fuel fill opening to the point of connection to the propulsion engine and/or to any auxiliary equipment on all boats with gasoline engines, excluding onboard refueling systems. >>>Standard History: >>>First Published Revised Dates >>>1973 1975 >>>1984 >>>1989 >>>1993 >>>1996 >>>2005 >>>2007 >>>2009 >>>2010 >>>2012 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the fuel tank. My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly I should also install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank to isolate any fuel fumes from the electrical system. >>>> >>>******** All non standard, and not recommended. >>> >>> >>>> >>>>At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group about these tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. >>>> >>>> >>>>Many thanks >>>>Erik >>>>Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 >>>>Seattle, WA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>-- >>> >>>Joe DeMers - owner >>>Sound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.comphone & fax (860) 666-2184 >>> >> >>____________________________________________________________ >>What's your flood risk? >>Find flood maps, interactive tools, FAQs, and agents in your area. >>floodsmart.gov >

Thanks Rod, for the clarification. Joe D On 1/14/2015 7:41 PM, rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: >  > > Joe, there is no USCG requirement for a bilge blower in this case (not > a bad Idea to have one, but */_NOT_/* required on an outboard OR > Diesel powered vessel). > As long as the tank is properly vented overboard and filled through an > above-deck fill that is sealed to the deck to prevent leaking around > it, a below deck fuel tank is OK. If there are no electrical systems > in the same compartment no ventilation of that compartment is needed, > however ventilation (Natural) is required if electrical components are > present in that compartment. Still, no blower is required. However, I > would DEFINITELY sniff pretty hard before even thinking about lighting > the galley stove! > Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" > 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 > was: NODROG" 1979 CAL 21 #285 > (24 years experience USCGAUX Vessel Examiner) > On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:21:32 -0500 "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com > <mailto:je… [at] mindspring.com> [Cal_Boats]" > <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> writes: > > Here's some random thoughts - > > Any fuel filters must be located in the cockpit area, so fumes [ > as when changing filters] go overboard, NOT below. You should also > have a shut off valve & a check valve located on the fuel tank, to > control the fuel flow to the engine. These last 2 items are USCG > requirements for gasoline powered boats with below deck fuel tanks. > > All hoses that attach to the tank MUST BE USCG grade A1, no > exceptions ! You also need a blower, correctly installed, AND it > MUST BE operated correctly ! > > Please see below for more comments ************* > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & > fax (860) 666-2184* > > On 1/14/2015 3:04 PM, er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> >> I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, >> using, and thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel >> tanks. >> http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tanks/ >> >> >> I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I >> would be using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan >> 9.8 hp outboard. I like the below deck option because >> > > >> ********** Erik said - I will then be able to install the >> appropriate fuel & water filters below the cockpit. >> > *********** VERY BAD IDEA ! and dangerous ! Joe D >> >> >> My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion >> hazard, >> > > ******** You should be VERY concerned, as blowing up just ONCE can > be fatal. May I suggest you install this fuel system to ABYC > standards? Click here - > > https://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#H2 > > > H-24 (ANS) — Gasoline Fuel Systems > > This standard is a guide for the design, choice of materials for, > construction, installation, repair, and maintenance of permanently > installed gasoline fuel systems. > > 1. Portable Gasoline fuel systems are covered by ABYC H-25, > "Portable Gasoline Fuel Systems". > 2. The United States Coast Guard has promulgated mandatory > requirements for gasoline fuel systems in 33 CFR, Subpart J, > Sections 183.501 - 183.590. Refer to the CFR for complete, > current federal requirements. > 3. The Environmental Protection Agency has promulgated > regulations regarding the evaporative and diurnal emissions > for gasoline spark ignition marine engines and fuel systems. > These regulations can be found in 40 CFR chapter 1060. > > > This standard applies to all parts of permanently installed > gasoline fuel systems from the fuel fill opening to the point of > connection to the propulsion engine and/or to any auxiliary > equipment on all boats with gasoline engines, excluding onboard > refueling systems. > > *Standard History:* > > *First Published* *Revised Dates* > 1973 1975 > 1984 > 1989 > 1993 > 1996 > 2005 > 2007 > 2009 > 2010 > 2012 > > > > > >> since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the >> fuel tank. My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly >> I should also install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank >> to isolate any fuel fumes from the electrical system. >> > > ******** All non standard, and not recommended. >> >> >> At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group >> about these tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. >> >> >> Many thanks >> >> Erik >> >> Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 >> >> Seattle, WA >> >> >> >> > > -- > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & > fax (860) 666-2184* > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *What's your flood risk?* > Find flood maps, interactive tools, FAQs, and agents in your area. > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/54b70d0c46524d0c4415st01duc>floodsmart.gov > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/54b70d0c46524d0c4415st01duc> -- *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & fax (860) 666-2184*

yes, the poptop 27 was built with an inboard. a friend has one near our T/2 on flathead lake. Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:06:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Moeller Permanent Fuel Tanks - Experience? Hi, I've been considering the same sort of change. In October, we became new owners of a '73 Cal 27-1 with a 15HP Honda outboard permanently installed on a bracket, with remote shift/throttle controls located in the cockpit. I don't feel comfortable with the current fuel setup: fuel lines routed into the starboard under-seat locker to one of those new Atwood "ventless EPA" tanks. Being out of the sun there, it doesn't get pressurized like it would sitting on deck, but it seems to me that it still could somehow vent itself below deck. For the short time we had the boat in the water, I did not store the tank on the boat when not in use. It seems like there would be a several spots to install a permanent, vented tank. There is a huge, open area aft of the companionway - where an inboard engine might be on some boats. That seems like a natural spot, except that it's essentially part of the cabin. The starboard under-seat locker is another spot, and it's isolated from the cabin, but that is much more valuable storage space than the spot in the cabin. Was the 27-1 ever built with an inboard? If so, where would the fuel tank and fill have been? And,maybe a silly question, but when installing a permanent tank for an outboard, do people typically still include a primer bulb somewhere in the supply line? Thanks,Doug Fitz-RandolphFreeport, ME On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:41 PM, rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote:  Joe, there is no USCG requirement for a bilge blower in this case (not a bad Idea to have one, but NOT required on an outboard OR Diesel powered vessel). As long as the tank is properly vented overboard and filled through an above-deck fill that is sealed to the deck to prevent leaking around it, a below deck fuel tank is OK. If there are no electrical systems in the same compartment no ventilation of that compartment is needed, however ventilation (Natural) is required if electrical components are present in that compartment. Still, no blower is required. However, I would DEFINITELY sniff pretty hard before even thinking about lighting the galley stove! Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 was: NODROG" 1979 CAL 21 #285 (24 years experience USCGAUX Vessel Examiner) On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:21:32 -0500 "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: Here's some random thoughts - Any fuel filters must be located in the cockpit area, so fumes [ as when changing filters] go overboard, NOT below. You should also have a shut off valve & a check valve located on the fuel tank, to control the fuel flow to the engine. These last 2 items are USCG requirements for gasoline powered boats with below deck fuel tanks. All hoses that attach to the tank MUST BE USCG grade A1, no exceptions ! You also need a blower, correctly installed, AND it MUST BE operated correctly ! Please see below for more comments ************* Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 1/14/2015 3:04 PM, er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, using, and thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel tanks. http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tanks/ I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I would be using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan 9.8 hp outboard. I like the below deck option because ********** Erik said - I will then be able to install the appropriate fuel & water filters below the cockpit. *********** VERY BAD IDEA ! and dangerous ! Joe D My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion hazard, ******** You should be VERY concerned, as blowing up just ONCE can be fatal. May I suggest you install this fuel system to ABYC standards? Click here - https://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#H2 H-24 (ANS) — Gasoline Fuel Systems This standard is a guide for the design, choice of materials for, construction, installation, repair, and maintenance of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems. Portable Gasoline fuel systems are covered by ABYC H-25, "Portable Gasoline Fuel Systems". The United States Coast Guard has promulgated mandatory requirements for gasoline fuel systems in 33 CFR, Subpart J, Sections 183.501 - 183.590. Refer to the CFR for complete, current federal requirements. The Environmental Protection Agency has promulgated regulations regarding the evaporative and diurnal emissions for gasoline spark ignition marine engines and fuel systems. These regulations can be found in 40 CFR chapter 1060. This standard applies to all parts of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems from the fuel fill opening to the point of connection to the propulsion engine and/or to any auxiliary equipment on all boats with gasoline engines, excluding onboard refueling systems. Standard History: First Published Revised Dates 1973 1975 1984 1989 1993 1996 2005 2007 2009 2010 2012 since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the fuel tank. My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly I should also install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank to isolate any fuel fumes from the electrical system. ******** All non standard, and not recommended. At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group about these tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. Many thanks Erik Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 Seattle, WA -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.comphone & fax (860) 666-2184 What's your flood risk? Find flood maps, interactive tools, FAQs, and agents in your area. floodsmart.gov

Inboard tanks on early Cal 27's were under the cockpit sole aft of the companionway, aft of the inboard engine. with the fill in the cockpit sole. To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:06:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Moeller Permanent Fuel Tanks - Experience? Hi, I've been considering the same sort of change. In October, we became new owners of a '73 Cal 27-1 with a 15HP Honda outboard permanently installed on a bracket, with remote shift/throttle controls located in the cockpit. I don't feel comfortable with the current fuel setup: fuel lines routed into the starboard under-seat locker to one of those new Atwood "ventless EPA" tanks. Being out of the sun there, it doesn't get pressurized like it would sitting on deck, but it seems to me that it still could somehow vent itself below deck. For the short time we had the boat in the water, I did not store the tank on the boat when not in use. It seems like there would be a several spots to install a permanent, vented tank. There is a huge, open area aft of the companionway - where an inboard engine might be on some boats. That seems like a natural spot, except that it's essentially part of the cabin. The starboard under-seat locker is another spot, and it's isolated from the cabin, but that is much more valuable storage space than the spot in the cabin. Was the 27-1 ever built with an inboard? If so, where would the fuel tank and fill have been? And,maybe a silly question, but when installing a permanent tank for an outboard, do people typically still include a primer bulb somewhere in the supply line? Thanks,Doug Fitz-RandolphFreeport, ME On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:41 PM, rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote:  Joe, there is no USCG requirement for a bilge blower in this case (not a bad Idea to have one, but NOT required on an outboard OR Diesel powered vessel). As long as the tank is properly vented overboard and filled through an above-deck fill that is sealed to the deck to prevent leaking around it, a below deck fuel tank is OK. If there are no electrical systems in the same compartment no ventilation of that compartment is needed, however ventilation (Natural) is required if electrical components are present in that compartment. Still, no blower is required. However, I would DEFINITELY sniff pretty hard before even thinking about lighting the galley stove! Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 was: NODROG" 1979 CAL 21 #285 (24 years experience USCGAUX Vessel Examiner) On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:21:32 -0500 "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: Here's some random thoughts - Any fuel filters must be located in the cockpit area, so fumes [ as when changing filters] go overboard, NOT below. You should also have a shut off valve & a check valve located on the fuel tank, to control the fuel flow to the engine. These last 2 items are USCG requirements for gasoline powered boats with below deck fuel tanks. All hoses that attach to the tank MUST BE USCG grade A1, no exceptions ! You also need a blower, correctly installed, AND it MUST BE operated correctly ! Please see below for more comments ************* Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 1/14/2015 3:04 PM, er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, using, and thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel tanks. http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tanks/ I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I would be using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan 9.8 hp outboard. I like the below deck option because ********** Erik said - I will then be able to install the appropriate fuel & water filters below the cockpit. *********** VERY BAD IDEA ! and dangerous ! Joe D My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion hazard, ******** You should be VERY concerned, as blowing up just ONCE can be fatal. May I suggest you install this fuel system to ABYC standards? Click here - https://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#H2 H-24 (ANS) — Gasoline Fuel Systems This standard is a guide for the design, choice of materials for, construction, installation, repair, and maintenance of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems. Portable Gasoline fuel systems are covered by ABYC H-25, "Portable Gasoline Fuel Systems". The United States Coast Guard has promulgated mandatory requirements for gasoline fuel systems in 33 CFR, Subpart J, Sections 183.501 - 183.590. Refer to the CFR for complete, current federal requirements. The Environmental Protection Agency has promulgated regulations regarding the evaporative and diurnal emissions for gasoline spark ignition marine engines and fuel systems. These regulations can be found in 40 CFR chapter 1060. This standard applies to all parts of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems from the fuel fill opening to the point of connection to the propulsion engine and/or to any auxiliary equipment on all boats with gasoline engines, excluding onboard refueling systems. Standard History: First Published Revised Dates 1973 1975 1984 1989 1993 1996 2005 2007 2009 2010 2012 since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the fuel tank. My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly I should also install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank to isolate any fuel fumes from the electrical system. ******** All non standard, and not recommended. At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group about these tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. Many thanks Erik Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 Seattle, WA -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.comphone & fax (860) 666-2184 What's your flood risk? Find flood maps, interactive tools, FAQs, and agents in your area. floodsmart.gov

above deck tanks "leak" fumes through the plastic. They should not be stored in a locker. I found that out when researching tanks for my install. On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:43 PM, r good my… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Inboard tanks on early Cal 27's were under the cockpit sole aft of the > companionway, aft of the inboard engine. with the fill in the cockpit > sole. > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:06:06 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Moeller Permanent Fuel Tanks - Experience? > > > Hi, > > I've been considering the same sort of change. In October, we became new > owners of a '73 Cal 27-1 with a 15HP Honda outboard permanently installed > on a bracket, with remote shift/throttle controls located in the cockpit. I > don't feel comfortable with the current fuel setup: fuel lines routed into > the starboard under-seat locker to one of those new Atwood "ventless EPA" > tanks. Being out of the sun there, it doesn't get pressurized like it would > sitting on deck, but it seems to me that it still could somehow vent itself > below deck. For the short time we had the boat in the water, I did not > store the tank on the boat when not in use. > > It seems like there would be a several spots to install a permanent, > vented tank. There is a huge, open area aft of the companionway - where an > inboard engine might be on some boats. That seems like a natural spot, > except that it's essentially part of the cabin. The starboard under-seat > locker is another spot, and it's isolated from the cabin, but that is much > more valuable storage space than the spot in the cabin. > > Was the 27-1 ever built with an inboard? If so, where would the fuel tank > and fill have been? And,maybe a silly question, but when installing a > permanent tank for an outboard, do people typically still include a primer > bulb somewhere in the supply line? > > Thanks, > Doug Fitz-Randolph > Freeport, ME > > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:41 PM, rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats] < > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > >  > Joe, there is no USCG requirement for a bilge blower in this case (not a > bad Idea to have one, but *NOT* required on an outboard OR Diesel powered > vessel). > As long as the tank is properly vented overboard and filled through an > above-deck fill that is sealed to the deck to prevent leaking around it, a > below deck fuel tank is OK. If there are no electrical systems in the same > compartment no ventilation of that compartment is needed, however > ventilation (Natural) is required if electrical components are present in > that compartment. Still, no blower is required. However, I would DEFINITELY > sniff pretty hard before even thinking about lighting the galley stove! > > Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" > 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 > was: NODROG" 1979 CAL 21 #285 > (24 years experience USCGAUX Vessel Examiner) > > On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:21:32 -0500 "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com > [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: > > > Here's some random thoughts - > > Any fuel filters must be located in the cockpit area, so fumes [ as when > changing filters] go overboard, NOT below. You should also have a shut off > valve & a check valve located on the fuel tank, to control the fuel flow to > the engine. These last 2 items are USCG requirements for gasoline powered > boats with below deck fuel tanks. > > All hoses that attach to the tank MUST BE USCG grade A1, no exceptions ! > You also need a blower, correctly installed, AND it MUST BE operated > correctly ! > > Please see below for more comments ************* > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & fax > (860) 666-2184* > > On 1/14/2015 3:04 PM, er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, using, and > thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel tanks. > http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tanks/ > > > I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I would be > using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan 9.8 hp outboard. I > like the below deck option because > > > > ********** Erik said - I will then be able to install the appropriate > fuel & water filters below the cockpit. > > *********** VERY BAD IDEA ! and dangerous ! Joe D > > > > My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion hazard, > > > ******** You should be VERY concerned, as blowing up just ONCE can be > fatal. May I suggest you install this fuel system to ABYC standards? Click > here - > > https://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#H2 > > H-24 (ANS) — Gasoline Fuel Systems This standard is a guide for the > design, choice of materials for, construction, installation, repair, and > maintenance of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems. > > 1. Portable Gasoline fuel systems are covered by ABYC H-25, "Portable > Gasoline Fuel Systems". > 2. The United States Coast Guard has promulgated mandatory > requirements for gasoline fuel systems in 33 CFR, Subpart J, Sections > 183.501 - 183.590. Refer to the CFR for complete, current federal > requirements. > 3. The Environmental Protection Agency has promulgated regulations > regarding the evaporative and diurnal emissions for gasoline spark ignition > marine engines and fuel systems. These regulations can be found in 40 CFR > chapter 1060. > > > This standard applies to all parts of permanently installed gasoline fuel > systems from the fuel fill opening to the point of connection to the > propulsion engine and/or to any auxiliary equipment on all boats with > gasoline engines, excluding onboard refueling systems. > *Standard History:* > *First Published* *Revised Dates* 1973 1975 > 1984 > 1989 > 1993 > 1996 > 2005 > 2007 > 2009 > 2010 > 2012 > > > > since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the fuel tank. > My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly I should also > install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank to isolate any fuel > fumes from the electrical system. > > > ******** All non standard, and not recommended. > > > > At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group about these > tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. > > > Many thanks > Erik > Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 > Seattle, WA > > > > > > > > -- > *Joe DeMers - owner* > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & fax > (860) 666-2184* > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *What's your flood risk?* > Find flood maps, interactive tools, FAQs, and agents in your area. > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/54b70d0c46524d0c4415st01duc> > floodsmart.gov > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/54b70d0c46524d0c4415st01duc> > > > > >

Moeller cross linked tanks should not leak fumes they have boasted that can be installed below deck so with venting and proper hose this should work fine ASPER Joe Demers Also the Cal 2-27 29 30 had atomic fours with inboad tanks in the same area My 1969 Ericson 30 MK 1 was like that never a problem. the other cal owners should chime I know a lot them have gas engines my 5cents SW -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 1/15/15, Allen Edwards al… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Moeller Permanent Fuel Tanks - Experience? To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: Thursday, January 15, 2015, 8:01 PM above deck tanks "leak" fumes through the plastic. They should not be stored in a locker. I found that out when researching tanks for my install. On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:43 PM, r good my… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Inboard tanks on early Cal 27's were under the cockpit sole aft of the companionway, aft of the inboard engine. with the fill in the cockpit sole. To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:06:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Moeller Permanent Fuel Tanks - Experience? Hi, I've been considering the same sort of change. In October, we became new owners of a '73 Cal 27-1 with a 15HP Honda outboard permanently installed on a bracket, with remote shift/throttle controls located in the cockpit. I don't feel comfortable with the current fuel setup: fuel lines routed into the starboard under-seat locker to one of those new Atwood "ventless EPA" tanks. Being out of the sun there, it doesn't get pressurized like it would sitting on deck, but it seems to me that it still could somehow vent itself below deck. For the short time we had the boat in the water, I did not store the tank on the boat when not in use. It seems like there would be a several spots to install a permanent, vented tank. There is a huge, open area aft of the companionway - where an inboard engine might be on some boats. That seems like a natural spot, except that it's essentially part of the cabin. The starboard under-seat locker is another spot, and it's isolated from the cabin, but that is much more valuable storage space than the spot in the cabin. Was the 27-1 ever built with an inboard? If so, where would the fuel tank and fill have been? And,maybe a silly question, but when installing a permanent tank for an outboard, do people typically still include a primer bulb somewhere in the supply line? Thanks,Doug Fitz-RandolphFreeport, ME On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:41 PM, rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote:  Joe, there is no USCG requirement for a bilge blower in this case (not a bad Idea to have one, but NOT required on an outboard OR Diesel powered vessel). As long as the tank is properly vented overboard and filled through an above-deck fill that is sealed to the deck to prevent leaking around it, a below deck fuel tank is OK. If there are no electrical systems in the same compartment no ventilation of that compartment is needed, however ventilation (Natural) is required if electrical components are present in that compartment. Still, no blower is required. However, I would DEFINITELY sniff pretty hard before even thinking about lighting the galley stove! Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 was: NODROG" 1979 CAL 21 #285 (24 years experience USCGAUX Vessel Examiner) On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:21:32 -0500 "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: Here's some random thoughts - Any fuel filters must be located in the cockpit area, so fumes [ as when changing filters] go overboard, NOT below. You should also have a shut off valve & a check valve located on the fuel tank, to control the fuel flow to the engine. These last 2 items are USCG requirements for gasoline powered boats with below deck fuel tanks. All hoses that attach to the tank MUST BE USCG grade A1, no exceptions ! You also need a blower, correctly installed, AND it MUST BE operated correctly ! Please see below for more comments ************* Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 1/14/2015 3:04 PM, er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, using, and thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel tanks. http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tanks/ I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I would be using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan 9.8 hp outboard. I like the below deck option because ********** Erik said - I will then be able to install the appropriate fuel & water filters below the cockpit. *********** VERY BAD IDEA ! and dangerous ! Joe D My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion hazard, ******** You should be VERY concerned, as blowing up just ONCE can be fatal. May I suggest you install this fuel system to ABYC standards? Click here - https://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#H2 H-24 (ANS) — Gasoline Fuel Systems This standard is a guide for the design, choice of materials for, construction, installation, repair, and maintenance of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems. Portable Gasoline fuel systems are covered by ABYC H-25, "Portable Gasoline Fuel Systems". The United States Coast Guard has promulgated mandatory requirements for gasoline fuel systems in 33 CFR, Subpart J, Sections 183.501 - 183.590. Refer to the CFR for complete, current federal requirements. The Environmental Protection Agency has promulgated regulations regarding the evaporative and diurnal emissions for gasoline spark ignition marine engines and fuel systems. These regulations can be found in 40 CFR chapter 1060. This standard applies to all parts of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems from the fuel fill opening to the point of connection to the propulsion engine and/or to any auxiliary equipment on all boats with gasoline engines, excluding onboard refueling systems. Standard History: First PublishedRevised Dates19731975 1984 1989 1993 1996 2005 2007 2009 2010 2012 since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the fuel tank. My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly I should also install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank to isolate any fuel fumes from the electrical system. ******** All non standard, and not recommended. At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group about these tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. Many thanks Erik Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 Seattle, WA -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.comphone & fax (860) 666-2184 ____________________________________________________________ What's your flood risk? Find flood maps, interactive tools, FAQs, and agents in your area. floodsmart.gov

In placing a permanent tank for an outboard, does anyone know if there are considerations regarding height relative to the motor and/or distance from the motor, i.e.is there some maximum "lift" for the outboard's fuel pump? Thanks, Doug Fitz-Randolph Freeport, ME '73 Cal 27-1 On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 5:43 PM, r good my… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Inboard tanks on early Cal 27's were under the cockpit sole aft of the > companionway, aft of the inboard engine. with the fill in the cockpit > sole. > > ------------------------------ > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:06:06 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Moeller Permanent Fuel Tanks - Experience? > > > Hi, > > I've been considering the same sort of change. In October, we became new > owners of a '73 Cal 27-1 with a 15HP Honda outboard permanently installed > on a bracket, with remote shift/throttle controls located in the cockpit. I > don't feel comfortable with the current fuel setup: fuel lines routed into > the starboard under-seat locker to one of those new Atwood "ventless EPA" > tanks. Being out of the sun there, it doesn't get pressurized like it would > sitting on deck, but it seems to me that it still could somehow vent itself > below deck. For the short time we had the boat in the water, I did not > store the tank on the boat when not in use. > > It seems like there would be a several spots to install a permanent, > vented tank. There is a huge, open area aft of the companionway - where an > inboard engine might be on some boats. That seems like a natural spot, > except that it's essentially part of the cabin. The starboard under-seat > locker is another spot, and it's isolated from the cabin, but that is much > more valuable storage space than the spot in the cabin. > > Was the 27-1 ever built with an inboard? If so, where would the fuel tank > and fill have been? And,maybe a silly question, but when installing a > permanent tank for an outboard, do people typically still include a primer > bulb somewhere in the supply line? > > Thanks, > Doug Fitz-Randolph > Freeport, ME > > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:41 PM, rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats] < > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > >  > Joe, there is no USCG requirement for a bilge blower in this case (not a > bad Idea to have one, but *NOT* required on an outboard OR Diesel powered > vessel). > As long as the tank is properly vented overboard and filled through an > above-deck fill that is sealed to the deck to prevent leaking around it, a > below deck fuel tank is OK. If there are no electrical systems in the same > compartment no ventilation of that compartment is needed, however > ventilation (Natural) is required if electrical components are present in > that compartment. Still, no blower is required. However, I would DEFINITELY > sniff pretty hard before even thinking about lighting the galley stove! > > Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" > 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 > was: NODROG" 1979 CAL 21 #285 > (24 years experience USCGAUX Vessel Examiner) > > On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 15:21:32 -0500 "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com > [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: > > > Here's some random thoughts - > > Any fuel filters must be located in the cockpit area, so fumes [ as when > changing filters] go overboard, NOT below. You should also have a shut off > valve & a check valve located on the fuel tank, to control the fuel flow to > the engine. These last 2 items are USCG requirements for gasoline powered > boats with below deck fuel tanks. > > All hoses that attach to the tank MUST BE USCG grade A1, no exceptions ! > You also need a blower, correctly installed, AND it MUST BE operated > correctly ! > > Please see below for more comments ************* > > *Joe DeMers - owner* > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & fax > (860) 666-2184* > > On 1/14/2015 3:04 PM, er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, using, and > thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel tanks. > http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tanks/ > > > I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I would be > using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan 9.8 hp outboard. I > like the below deck option because > > > > ********** Erik said - I will then be able to install the appropriate > fuel & water filters below the cockpit. > > *********** VERY BAD IDEA ! and dangerous ! Joe D > > > > My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion hazard, > > > ******** You should be VERY concerned, as blowing up just ONCE can be > fatal. May I suggest you install this fuel system to ABYC standards? Click > here - > > https://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm#H2 > > H-24 (ANS) — Gasoline Fuel Systems This standard is a guide for the > design, choice of materials for, construction, installation, repair, and > maintenance of permanently installed gasoline fuel systems. > > 1. Portable Gasoline fuel systems are covered by ABYC H-25, "Portable > Gasoline Fuel Systems". > 2. The United States Coast Guard has promulgated mandatory > requirements for gasoline fuel systems in 33 CFR, Subpart J, Sections > 183.501 - 183.590. Refer to the CFR for complete, current federal > requirements. > 3. The Environmental Protection Agency has promulgated regulations > regarding the evaporative and diurnal emissions for gasoline spark ignition > marine engines and fuel systems. These regulations can be found in 40 CFR > chapter 1060. > > > This standard applies to all parts of permanently installed gasoline fuel > systems from the fuel fill opening to the point of connection to the > propulsion engine and/or to any auxiliary equipment on all boats with > gasoline engines, excluding onboard refueling systems. > *Standard History:* > *First Published* *Revised Dates* 1973 1975 > 1984 > 1989 > 1993 > 1996 > 2005 > 2007 > 2009 > 2010 > 2012 > > > > since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the fuel tank. > My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly I should also > install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank to isolate any fuel > fumes from the electrical system. > > > ******** All non standard, and not recommended. > > > > At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group about these > tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. > > > Many thanks > Erik > Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 > Seattle, WA > > > > > > > > -- > *Joe DeMers - owner* > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & fax > (860) 666-2184* > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > *What's your flood risk?* > Find flood maps, interactive tools, FAQs, and agents in your area. > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/54b70d0c46524d0c4415st01duc> > floodsmart.gov > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/54b70d0c46524d0c4415st01duc> > > > > >

Jim, a few comments..... 1) the absolute BEST "fume detector" is located right between your eyes..... the human nose! If you smell gas, DO NOT start engine!! 2) The low rate of boat explosions just means that a LOT of "guardian angels" are working overtime! Spend a short amount of time at a typical marine fuel dock and you will be scared silly by the careless fueling procedures observed! I can only explain it as dumb luck that more boats do not explode. If even one boat had an explosion, and even one person was hurt... it would be one too many! 3) The blower should be run a MINIMUM of 4-5 minutes before even thinking about starting an inboard, gas engine! ALL hatches should be opened first, sniff for fumes, if fumes are present... locate source and eliminate cause BEFORE going further. If no source found, run blower, then sniff again, if no fumes detected... wait, sniff again...... no fumes detected, then start engine. Entire fuel system should be inspected ASAP to find source of latent fumes between trips (possible fuel lines were getting old or damaged by ethanol, and becoming porous?) 3a) A leaking fuel tank is SERIOUS and should be fixed ASAP, boat should not be used until fixed!! As the old Bible camp song goes.."..it only takes a spark..." 4) Your 29 doesn't have a blower because it is not required to have one, only required on gas inboards, not on outboard or Diesel powered boats (still recommended on those boats, but not technically required). As long as that tank is vented overboard and filler fitting is located on deck no ventilation of the compartment is needed unless there are any electrical components in the same compartment, if so then there needs to be natural ventilation (intake and exhaust cowls with ducting to the bilge) in that compartment. 4) Opening the hatches before starting MAY have saved some damage if any fumes had ignited, since the force of the explosion would have an escape route............ MAYBE...... but still would have been frightening at the least! Unfortunately, it also may have added more air (oxygen) to any potential fire, so was still risky. This might be a good time to post for everyone the following example of proper fueling procedures: (Handout from a boating safety class) Fueling Safely Built-in Tanks BEFORE FUELING � Secure boat to dock � Turn off all electrical devices, extinguish any flames � Close hatches and portholes � Have everyone except person filling tank(s) get off boat for safety � Do NOT run blower(s) while fueling! � Keep fuel nozzle in contact with deck plate � Do not overfill tanks PAY ATTENTION! � Wipe up spills, dispose of rag(s) onshore AFTER FUELING � Ventilate bilge AFTER fueling � Open all hatches and portholes, check for spills/leaks, sniff for fumes � If leaks / fumes found, locate and fix � Now run blower(s) for at least 5 minutes � If no fumes or leaks found, start engines(s). � Let passenger aboard, Depart fuel dock NEVER start the engines without checking for fumes and fuel leaks! If you find a leak or if fumes do not immediately dissipate after venting, DO NOT START ENGINE(S)!! Portable Tanks � Fill portable tanks on dock, never inside boat or vehicle. � Keep fuel nozzle in contact with tank fill opening while filling. � Do not overfill! � Wipe up any spills. Dispose of rag(s) safely � Portable tanks should be secured to boat while underway � Do Not store fuel tanks in an unventilated compartment and NEVER in cabin! � Also, NEVER store LPG or Butane cylinders inside the boat. Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II was: "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 #285 On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 22:42:44 -0500 "'sailor7312 .' sa… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: If I am not mistaken, the 2-27 had the tank under the cock pit. Non of the bulkheads created an air tight seal so any excess fumes would go to the bottom of the bilge. My dad installed a fume sensor in the bilge to detect fuel. His metal tank rusted and started dripping fuel. We smelled it well before the sensor did. I think Cal's had a fair number of gas Atomic 4's and I think their explosion rate was pretty low(extremely low). I used to open the seat hatches before starting the engine if it had been sitting a while.(still do that) I used to run the blower for about a min before starting the engine.(Don't have one on my 29) I would never let anyone smoke on board.(Still do that) I now have a 29 w a 9.9 outboard and a 12 gallon permanent tank. Love it. Jim East Coast Cal 29 sailor. On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:04 PM, er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, using, and thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel tanks. http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tan ks/ I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I would be using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan 9.8 hp outboard. I like the below deck option because I will then be able to install the appropriate fuel & water filters below the cockpit. My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion hazard, since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the fuel tank. My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly I should also install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank to isolate any fuel fumes from the electrical system. At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group about these tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. Many thanks Erik Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 Seattle, WA Avoid Wrinkling At Age 60 Men, reduce the look of wrinkles and sagging skin without leaving home http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/54b8a05d51e71205d4bd2st04duc

I think you missed the gist of what I was saying. I said the nose is better then a sensor. I never said we operated our boat w a leaky tank, just that it leaked and we discovered it before the sensor. I am well aware of gasolines potential, I grew up in the country, lit a few burn piles and have seen first had how it can flash and how flames can travel w the fumes. That said , statistically, there have been very few incidents with a lot of drunk idiots in charge of their boats. It needs to be respected, but you don't have to build a bomb shelter in your boat. I gutted my 29 and started over. My 29 doesn't have s blower because I chose not to put one in . I don't subscribe to the "one accident is too many". With that, we wouldn't sail at all. We wouldn't do much of anything. Life is full of risks. They just have to be managed. Jim > On Jan 16, 2015, at 12:22 AM, rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > >  > > Jim, a few comments..... > > 1) the absolute BEST "fume detector" is located right between your eyes..... the human nose! If you smell gas, DO NOT start engine!! > 2) The low rate of boat explosions just means that a LOT of "guardian angels" are working overtime! Spend a short amount of time at a typical marine fuel dock and you will be scared silly by the careless fueling procedures observed! I can only explain it as dumb luck that more boats do not explode. If even one boat had an explosion, and even one person was hurt... it would be one too many! > 3) The blower should be run a MINIMUM of 4-5 minutes before even thinking about starting an inboard, gas engine! ALL hatches should be opened first, sniff for fumes, if fumes are present... locate source and eliminate cause BEFORE going further. If no source found, run blower, then sniff again, if no fumes detected... wait, sniff again...... no fumes detected, then start engine. Entire fuel system should be inspected ASAP to find source of latent fumes between trips (possible fuel lines were getting old or damaged by ethanol, and becoming porous?) > 3a) A leaking fuel tank is SERIOUS and should be fixed ASAP, boat should not be used until fixed!! As the old Bible camp song goes.."..it only takes a spark..." > 4) Your 29 doesn't have a blower because it is not required to have one, only required on gas inboards, not on outboard or Diesel powered boats (still recommended on those boats, but not technically required). As long as that tank is vented overboard and filler fitting is located on deck no ventilation of the compartment is needed unless there are any electrical components in the same compartment, if so then there needs to be natural ventilation (intake and exhaust cowls with ducting to the bilge) in that compartment. > 4) Opening the hatches before starting MAY have saved some damage if any fumes had ignited, since the force of the explosion would have an escape route............ MAYBE...... but still would have been frightening at the least! Unfortunately, it also may have added more air (oxygen) to any potential fire, so was still risky. > > > This might be a good time to post for everyone the following example of proper fueling procedures: (Handout from a boating safety class) > > > Fueling Safely > > Built-in Tanks > BEFORE FUELING > • Secure boat to dock > • Turn off all electrical devices, extinguish any flames > • Close hatches and portholes > • Have everyone except person filling tank(s) get off boat for safety > • Do NOT run blower(s) while fueling! > • Keep fuel nozzle in contact with deck plate > • Do not overfill tanks PAY ATTENTION! > • Wipe up spills, dispose of rag(s) onshore > > AFTER FUELING > • Ventilate bilge AFTER fueling > • Open all hatches and portholes, check for spills/leaks, sniff for fumes > • If leaks / fumes found, locate and fix > • Now run blower(s) for at least 5 minutes > • If no fumes or leaks found, start engines(s). > • Let passenger aboard, Depart fuel dock > NEVER start the engines without checking for fumes and fuel leaks! If you find a leak or if fumes do not immediately dissipate after venting, DO NOT START ENGINE(S)!! > > > > > > Portable Tanks > • Fill portable tanks on dock, never inside boat or vehicle. > • Keep fuel nozzle in contact with tank fill opening while filling. > • Do not overfill! > • Wipe up any spills. Dispose of rag(s) safely > • Portable tanks should be secured to boat while underway > • Do Not store fuel tanks in an unventilated compartment and NEVER in cabin! > • Also, NEVER store LPG or Butane cylinders inside the boat. > > Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" > 1979 O'DAY DS II > was: "NODROG" > 1970 CAL 21 #285 > > > On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 22:42:44 -0500 "'sailor7312 .' sa… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: > > If I am not mistaken, the 2-27 had the tank under the cock pit. Non of the bulkheads created an air tight seal so any excess fumes would go to the bottom of the bilge. My dad installed a fume sensor in the bilge to detect fuel. His metal tank rusted and started dripping fuel. We smelled it well before the sensor did. > > > I think Cal's had a fair number of gas Atomic 4's and I think their explosion rate was pretty low(extremely low). > > I used to open the seat hatches before starting the engine if it had been sitting a while.(still do that) > I used to run the blower for about a min before starting the engine.(Don't have one on my 29) > I would never let anyone smoke on board.(Still do that) > > I now have a 29 w a 9.9 outboard and a 12 gallon permanent tank. > Love it. > > Jim > East Coast Cal 29 sailor. > >> On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:04 PM, er… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> >> >> I was wondering if anyone has had any experience installing, using, and thoughts on these Moeller permanent, below-deck fuel tanks. http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/fuel_storage_tanks/permanent_tanks/ >> >> >> >> I am considering installing one on Thera, my 1978 Cal 2-27. I would be using gasoline (not diesel) to supply fuel to a Nissan 9.8 hp outboard. I like the below deck option because I will then be able to install the appropriate fuel & water filters below the cockpit. >> >> >> >> My main concern is ensuring that I am not creating an explosion hazard, since the boats electrical systems are in the same area as the fuel tank. My feeling is that to install this fuel tank properly I should also install some sealed bulkheads around the fuel tank to isolate any fuel fumes from the electrical system. >> >> >> >> At this point, I'd really appreciate any wisdom from the group about these tanks or supplying fuel to outboards on these Cal 27s. >> >> >> >> Many thanks >> >> Erik >> >> Thera, '78 Cal 2-27 >> >> Seattle, WA >> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Avoid Wrinkling At Age 60 > Men, reduce the look of wrinkles and sagging skin without leaving home > healthylivinglifeguide.com >

1) Learn what gasoline smells like. 2) Smell at the output of your blower 3) If you smell gasoline, stay at the dock until you find the source and fix it and don't start your engine. Have you ever noticed that boats with gas engines never smell of gas and boats with diesel engines typically stink of diesel? I guess that is because people respect gasoline more than diesel. You just cannot tolerate the slightest gas smell. Many years ago I had a leak in the gas tank. It was long enough ago I can't recall what I did with all the gas but I assume I pumped the tank dry and put it in my car. I certainly didn't use the boat with the tank leaking. I replaced it with identical steel tank, which is no longer made. So when it came time to replace it again not because it was leaking but because it was old and I had the cockpit sole out for some other repairs (wood boat remember) I put a small 12 gallon plastic tank in instead of the 20 gallon one. No regrets. It is a sail boat after all. I also had a gas leak not long ago. It took 2 years before I found it. The carb gasket was not sealing on one side. At the dock there was no leak. But at one point on each race we would smell gas. It happened when we healed over. Was it us? Was it the plane overhead dumping something? Was it another boat? Was it the overflow hose leaking onto the deck? We could never find it and if we sniffed below, by then it was gone. As we were under sail at the time and in strong wind, the gas cleared itself and there was never any smell by the time we needed to start the engine. I thought it was the overflow until I found it. I can't recall how I found it. I think I took it out troubleshooting some running problem that turned out to be something else, a stuck valve on the new engine. Another tip. Paint your carb with paint that comes off with gasoline. That makes leaks much easier to find even after the gas has evaporated.

I would suggest looking at Ronco for a tank, they built me a custom holding tank for a decent price. they do fuel tanks also out of plastic. David Dobbs On Friday, January 16, 2015 11:01 AM, "Allen Edwards al… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: 1) Learn what gasoline smells like.2) Smell at the output of your blower3) If you smell gasoline, stay at the dock until you find the source and fix it and don't start your engine. Have you ever noticed that boats with gas engines never smell of gas and boats with diesel engines typically stink of diesel? I guess that is because people respect gasoline more than diesel. You just cannot tolerate the slightest gas smell. Many years ago I had a leak in the gas tank. It was long enough ago I can't recall what I did with all the gas but I assume I pumped the tank dry and put it in my car. I certainly didn't use the boat with the tank leaking. I replaced it with identical steel tank, which is no longer made. So when it came time to replace it again not because it was leaking but because it was old and I had the cockpit sole out for some other repairs (wood boat remember) I put a small 12 gallon plastic tank in instead of the 20 gallon one. No regrets. It is a sail boat after all. I also had a gas leak not long ago. It took 2 years before I found it. The carb gasket was not sealing on one side. At the dock there was no leak. But at one point on each race we would smell gas. It happened when we healed over. Was it us? Was it the plane overhead dumping something? Was it another boat? Was it the overflow hose leaking onto the deck? We could never find it and if we sniffed below, by then it was gone. As we were under sail at the time and in strong wind, the gas cleared itself and there was never any smell by the time we needed to start the engine. I thought it was the overflow until I found it. I can't recall how I found it. I think I took it out troubleshooting some running problem that turned out to be something else, a stuck valve on the new engine. Another tip. Paint your carb with paint that comes off with gasoline. That makes leaks much easier to find even after the gas has evaporated. -- {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} {margin-bottom:10px;} .yiv5872222175ad {padding:0 0;} .yiv5872222175ad p {margin:0;} .yiv5872222175ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} {font-family:Arial;} {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} .yiv5872222175ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} span {font-weight:700;} span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;} span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} span span {color:#ff7900;} span .yiv5872222175underline {text-decoration:underline;} .yiv5872222175attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} .yiv5872222175attach div a {text-decoration:none;} .yiv5872222175attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;} .yiv5872222175attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} .yiv5872222175attach label a {text-decoration:none;} blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;} .yiv5872222175bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} .yiv5872222175bold a {text-decoration:none;} dd.yiv5872222175last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} dd.yiv5872222175last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} dd.yiv5872222175last p span.yiv5872222175yshortcuts {margin-right:0;} div.yiv5872222175attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;} div.yiv5872222175attach-table {width:400px;} div.yiv5872222175file-title a, div.yiv5872222175file-title a:active, div.yiv5872222175file-title a:hover, div.yiv5872222175file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;} div.yiv5872222175photo-title a, div.yiv5872222175photo-title a:active, div.yiv5872222175photo-title a:hover, div.yiv5872222175photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;} div p a span.yiv5872222175yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} .yiv5872222175green {color:#628c2a;} .yiv5872222175MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;} o {font-size:0;} div {float:left;width:72px;} div div {border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} {font-size:77%;} {font-size:77%;} .yiv5872222175replbq {margin:4px;} div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} select, input, textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} pre, code {font:115% monospace;} * {line-height:1.22em;} {padding-bottom:10px;} p a {font-family:Verdana;} p span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} {font-family:Georgia;} p {margin:0 0 1em 0;} tt {font-size:120%;} ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}