Re: [Cal_Boats] Small vs Big boats, was: Looking for Cal 27 Mark III for Sale

Well, as a current owner of a 1979 O'DAY Day Sailer (Day Sailer II, actually, with "self-bailing" cockpit and lockable cuddy) I may have a different take on this subject. I grew up sailing on our family's boat, a 1970 CAL 21. The 21 would "sleep" 4 and that is no lie...... but we only did it once, most "cruising" was done with just my Dad and I, although a couple of times my Mom came too. For 2 people (1 adult and 1 child, later 2 adults) the 21 was more than enough for us, of course those were the day when cruising meant getting away from things, like camping in a tent or small trailer... we didn't take a TV (no AC power anyway!), just an old AM/FM radio for entertainment. With 2 "guys" aboard the marine head with no real privacy wasn't a huge problem...... those were the times when the heads pumped right overboard.... sounds "EECH!" now, but back then... no one thought about those things. We even went on a 3 day cruise from Wareham to Oak Bluffs on Marthas Vineyard once! That was a great trip that I'll never forget! We maybe spent 5-6 nights aboard each Summer (a lot of one-night trips) but each one was special. even if we spent the night on the mooring at the local boatyard. The CAL 21 did require us to rent a mooring at that boatyard due to drawing too much water to moor in the cove near my Grandparent's summer cottage (now my Parent's cottage), but over the years that expense wasn't huge as mooring rent was based on the size range of the boat (later the rent became a flat amount and rose, but still I think was never more than $1500 for the season. Although the 21 was trailerable, we ended up storing her on a wheeled cradle at the boatyard, cost was still not bad as I recall, and working on our boat at the yard was sort of part of the "delusions of grandeur" that we felt! Over the 38 years we owned "NODROG" we spent a lot of family time aboard, every weekend was taken up by a full-day of sailing on Saturday and again on Sunday. From Father's day until Labor Day..... weekends were for sailing! Usually at least one of those sails would be to one of two local beaches accessible only by boat, where we would have a picnic lunch and swim until we looked like wrinkled prunes. Often times we stopped for lunch in a local harbor or cove, among many other visiting boats. Dreams of a bigger boat someday were always there, features like standing headroom and a truly enclosed head, or even a table to eat at down below would be great. However, we got along quite well without luxuries, we had a single-burner alcohol stove, a freshwater tank connected to a hand pump with a dishpan for a sink, food was brought aboard in a cooler along with a jug of Kool-Aide to drink, of course... having a freshwater supply meant we could also mix up a glass of Tang or later ice tea..... what fun! Well, anyway, as my Sister and I grew up, we had less time for family sails, and by then we also each had a boat of our own, I had sailed a little 6' dinghy since 1973 (when I was 9 years old) and later had a 8' pram with a 2hp outboard, by the summer after her freshman year of High School my Sister was becoming very interested in sailing but not thrilled by my little dinghy so our Parents bought her a little 8' "Howmar Hauler" sailing dinghy.... By that time I was in College and after some gentle persuasion by Dad, started taking NODROG out alone during my time off from a part-time summer job. After a few years, my Sister had a part-time job at home, and wasn't down at "the beach" as much... I was working at home too, and so sailing was a weekend only (and during a week's vacation) activity. NODROG was still used every weekend, mostly by Dad and I, but then in 1988 I bought my first "real" sailboat, an old O'DAY Widgeon (12'4").... and now I had to choose between sailing with Dad and sailing my own "pride and Joy"! Actually, I still spent most weekends out at least part of one day with Dad on NODROG, since it was a chance to sail a "big" boat. As my Parents aged, NODROG became more their boat as my Sister got married and started a family of her own (and her Husband's family also had a cottage on Cape Cod) and I moved up to my Day Sailer in 1996. Sailing on NODROG was still a treat and the features of a cabin with soft bunks to nap on and a marine head (now with holding tank!) made it quite fun. But soon, Dad found he was sailing alone a lot, Mom was starting to develop arthritis, making the climb from dinghy to boat and back less easy, I don't think Mom ever really got used to the heeling of the boat (I think she tolerated it while we kids grew up, perhaps watching us took her mind off it?) and then I had a job that kept me away from the water on weekends (retail!) for one Summer and part of the next and when I was around..... well, I wanted to use my own boat. So, in 2008 we sold our "Big" boat, after considering a few ways that I could have taken over ownership and sold my Day Sailer..... just couldn't make that idea work. Now, I sail my Day Sailer every Weekend, I used to sail solo most of the time, but now... Dad sails with me, we have a regular routine each weekend, a morning sail on Saturday, then in for lunch and I go out in the afternoon.... sometimes Dad goes out with me then.... sometimes he stays home (he now enjoys the cottage more, relaxing as well as doing gardening). Since my Dad retired i n 2004, my Parents have spent Summers at the cottage, and I come down on weekends...... my Dad and I have switched... I used to be there all Summer and he came down on Weekends. He has a little 14' powerboat and the sailing dinghy from NODROG, and prefers short daysails now. I miss the days when we went out for the whole day...... and really went somewhere.... but, trips like that aren't quite as easy in a Day Sailer as on the CAL 21, plus I'm still single and honestly.... half the fun of those trips was the family aspect, and later the Father/Son aspect.... so going alone is not quite the same. I could still make some of those long sails, but it would mean leaving Dad home, and I enjoy having him with me too much. I am now dreaming of my "someday dream boat", the Day Sailer is nice and low-cost, but as I age (hit the big 5-0 last year!) a head inside even a small cabin would be REAL nice, a cabin with at least a small space for a galley, a place to get out of the rain, or at times the sun! A boat with the stiff feel of a ballast keel, yet still shoal-draft (I'm too used to the 3'9" CB down draft, where if I hit shallow water the CB just kicks up a bit, 4'3" still seems deep!) I still find that I sail the DS II as a "big" boat, I keep some drink boxes and pouches aboard, have snack crackers in individual packages, once a season or so I do eat lunch aboard, but I miss the "Big boat" feel of the CAL 21. Well, someday...... but to me I would consider a boat, even as small as 18-19' to be "BIG", sure I"d love to sail a CAL 25, or bigger..... actually the 1980's CAL 22 would be a "YACHT" to me! The CAL 20 might even be shallow enough for my cove mooring. But, financial reality, says that for me a 18-22' boat wil be as big as I ever get (and even then it won't be soon!) I have to agree that, to a point.... the amount that a boat gets used is often in inverse proportion to her size (small boat, lots of use..... bigger boat, less use) at least for day sailing. Yet, I also have to admit...... that I can be sailing in my DS II a lot quicker than on my old Widgeon or even the sailing dinghies, and so am more likely to use the DS II. Why?? Well, the DS II sits on her mooring just like the CAL 21........ mainsail is furled on the boom under a cover, jib is bagged on deck. Outboard is clamped to transom, ready for use (lately with gas tank also aboard), all gear except the life jacket that I wear, and the small duffel bag of items that I take with (hand-held radio, camera, a cold drink, etc) is already on the boat. I just need to grab my life jacket and the oars for the dinghy! Our cottage is a short (maybe 0.2 mi) walk to the beach and the haulout line for my dinghy...... My Widgeon required bending on the sails (kept at the house) and if I wanted to have the outboard.... well, that was off the boat too since I couldn't leave it on the boat in case she filled with rainwater. Sailing dinghy required carrying the mast, boom, sail, rudder, daggerboard, lifejacket, and paddle or oars down to beach. So, I guess I somewhat agree with both statements about likelihood of sailboat usage! But, I don't think it really relates to size as much as the time needed to leave. A small boat that you can sail "on impulse" may get used more than a larger one that requires more preparation and crew. Yet, a big boat kept within walking (or biking? Ask Chris Campbell!) distance of home, that one can easily be sailing on a moments notice, will get used more than any sailboat (large or small) that requires travel or extra time to get out on. Often times, though... a "small" boat can be sailed starting closer to the mooring or dock, what I mean is that a small boat may be easier to maneuver out of the harbor under sail that a Larger one.... and thus will not require powering out beyond the harbor before raising sail. Again may depend on harbor conditions, traffic level, draft of vessel, skill of sailor, etc. Even my DS II would get used less if kept on a trailer instead of a mooring in the season! Relative age (you are only as old as you feel!) plays a part, as does your personal definition of how much is too much (time and or effort) to prevent one from using one's boat. For the first 10-15 year that we had our CAL 21, my Dad and I very often would drive the 3.5 miles to the boatyard to go out for a short sail or "putt-putt" (what we called a ride under power) on a Summer evening after he came down after work, now I rarely do that even with my boat a less than a 5 minute walk from the house! I used to come down on a Friday night after working 7 AM to 6 PM 40 miles from the beach, eat a quick supper and grab all the gear needed to go out in my little 8' pram for an evening ride, I had lights and everything needed to run after dark and so often was out until 9 PM or later. Did the same (but after a shorter work day) with the Widgeon, even taking a sandwich and soda with me for supper on board to get out earlier! Now, I tend to come down to the beach, eat supper and since by then Jeopardy is coming on <GRIN!>...... well, I guess I'll wait until Saturday morning to go sailing! "Nuf said!" I didn't mean to be so long-winded! Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II was: co-owner of "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 #285 On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 17:47:10 +0000 "'Philip A. Lewis' ph… [at] phillewis.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: Don�s response put into words my own experience. I grew up sailing an O�Day Daysailer, though back in high school in the 1960s when all the other guys wanted a Camaro or a Firebird or some such car, I was lusting for a Cal 40 and had to explain it was not a car but a cool boat. In 1997, while still sailing what had been my father�s Daysailer, I bought a 1969 Cal 34 for sailing mainly on the Columbia River in Oregon. Soon, the O�Day became neglected and hardly used. Further, as I got older it just became way too much work to take out and sail the little boat: I needed to scramble around too much and too quickly to avoid capsizing or just to maintain proper trim; there was no way to get out from under the sun or the rain or change clothes easily to deal with weather changes, no way to just anchor and cook and sleep, etc. and no head on board; the boat was less forgiving than a bigger keel boat; and there was more exposure to the elements. With the Cal 34 I can take out friends and family for day sails, overnight cruises, and even cruise over the Columbia Bar and north to Canada. And, when I go down to work on the boat and get tired, I can just go down below and nap. Frankly, for me at least, in some ways the bigger boat day sail experience is less complicated than with the smaller boat. If I was younger or more agile or really liked racing my own boat, I could see the smaller boat, but the bigger one can make life much easier. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 10:29 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Looking for Cal 27 Mark III for Sale Wow, I've been wrestling with that "rule" for some time and didn't even know it! I've loved my Santana 22 to death, but it came with all the big boat expenses and few of the benefits. Last year I decided to get just enough boat to have those benefits (a 2-27), and to get my small boat fix, I'm getting back into windsurfing and probably going to pick up an old Laser for the times when I just want to splash around with zero maintenance on whatever body of water I can drive to. It's all so clear now, and I have to agree with "the rule". From: "Donald C Dutton dn… [at] comcast.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: Donald C Dutton <dn… [at] comcast.net> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Looking for Cal 27 Mark III for Sale Chris, Your reply almost perfectly mimics a �feeling� that I developed as I grew into sailing, from rank beginner to mid-level racing champ, and on to boat store owner. At one point in time I owned 9 sailboats and 8 of those boats were 19� or shorter while one was my Cal 33-2. My experience and listening to the satisfaction levels of fellow sailors lead to a basic rule that I stated to my customers. It went something like this � 20� and under sailboats were awesome day sailors and racers that were easily trailer launched and back home to the dock after a day of adventure. Cruising sailboats that could journey miles away from home and be lived aboard for extended stays were 27� and larger. Despite ardent manufacturer claims to the contrary, boats in the 20 - 27� range were not truly capable of comfortable cruising and were not conducive to easy daysailing adventure. This �rule� served me and my customers well. Now, I know the Cal 25 people are probably bristling at this notion and J-24�s are everywhere. But, the 20 - 27� category of sailboat leads to storage and/or slip fees, additional people other than family to help crew, and the need for launching cranes and support systems for daysailing. (Ever been to a J-24 race and seen the number of people involved with launching and stepping the mast on a trailered J-24 race boat??) As I said, this was a �general rule� that developed from my experience. As I gained experience I definitely found that daysailing my Cal 33-2 by myself in protected waters was quite functional and I had many hours of fun taking her out when no one else was available. But, sailing my Laser or Sunfish or Flying Scot by myself was incredibly more effortless and ultimately enjoyable. And cruising the Cal 33-2 with family aboard was a safe and fantastic experience given the ability to easily carry refrigeration, cooking equipment, adequate room for a true head, and sleeping berths that easily fit my 6� 2� frame and gave room and space for the children to have their own berths. Just a few thoughts developed over 35 years of sailing! Don Dutton 1986 Cal 33-2, �Quantum Evolution" On Apr 10, 2015, at 7:55 AM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: OK, I'm replying a month late to this wise comment. I've been very busy at work, where i get these e-mails, and now I'm catching up. Gerry is right on. My Cal 20 is even smaller than his Cal 24 and I'll bet it's even more fun. My mantra for years has been that small boats get sailed more than big boats. Boats reach a size at which they cannot easily be sailed single-handed. Oh, I know that it's possible to sail larger boats alone, but it's a lot more work and so it just gets done less often. On the Cal 20, all I need is time. The boat gets sailed a lot in the summer because I always have time after work. If your primary focus is cruising, and if you'll have the family along on the cruise, then a larger boat mat be appropriate. The original brochure for the Cal 20 says "Sleeps four!" But let's face it, cruising with a crew of 4 on the Cal 20 would require massive amounts of tolerance and adaptation. For most of us, the actual use of the boat tends to be mostly daysailing. I can assure you that for daysailing, the Cal 20 beats larger boats easily. It's big enough to tolerate wind and waves but small enough to be responsive and agile. Let's hear it for small boats. Chris Campbell No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3495 / Virus Database: 4311/9387 - Release Date: 03/26/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date.

this "blog" is one of the most delightful I have ever read on the "list". and touching. many of us were introduced to boating by our parents, lucky us. I got my own force 5, which I actually put in a slip in Santa Cruz in the 80s, rigged the main with clews up the luff and a rope halyard looped around the mast through the clews, so I could drop the sail and leave it on the boom. used it after work and days off, also took it to lakes. I usually used my wetsuit but sometimes would practice with another crew(ballast), then hop on a big boat for Wednesday beer cans. Then I got tired of going home in drenched clothes, and getting stiffer with age. F5 sits sadly on her trailer under cover in the driveway. Cal 29, bought when I retired, got sailed hard for 10 years in sf bay. The urge to go bigger got us the 36. The crew is larger, haulouts longer, etc.but we sail as much. We were practically given a santana 22, which has a head, tank, table, sleepable berth and now in a slip. Economically insane. We will be giving it a chance at racing while reupholstering the 36. I am not excited about getting wet, and wetsuits are too hard to wear these days. Slip rent difference is minimal. One day we may make that decision, shrink the fleet, end up with a 29 as it's the best of all considerations for our area. Meanwhile, any listers visiting are welcome to join us for a sail. Helen and Edward Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From:"rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date:Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 12:43 PM Subject:Re: [Cal_Boats] Small vs Big boats, was: Looking for Cal 27 Mark III for Sale [2 Attachments] [Attachment(s) from rj… [at] juno.com included below]  Well, as a current owner of a 1979 O'DAY Day Sailer (Day Sailer II, actually, with "self-bailing" cockpit and lockable cuddy) I may have a different take on this subject. I grew up sailing on our family's boat, a 1970 CAL 21. The 21 would "sleep" 4 and that is no lie...... but we only did it once, most "cruising" was done with just my Dad and I, although a couple of times my Mom came too. For 2 people (1 adult and 1 child, later 2 adults) the 21 was more than enough for us, of course those were the day when cruising meant getting away from things, like camping in a tent or small trailer... we didn't take a TV (no AC power anyway!), just an old AM/FM radio for entertainment. With 2 "guys" aboard the marine head with no real privacy wasn't a huge problem...... those were the times when the heads pumped right overboard.... sounds "EECH!" now, but back then... no one thought about those things. We even went on a 3 day cruise from Wareham to Oak Bluffs on Marthas Vineyard once! That was a great trip that I'll never forget! We maybe spent 5-6 nights aboard each Summer (a lot of one-night trips) but each one was special. even if we spent the night on the mooring at the local boatyard. The CAL 21 did require us to rent a mooring at that boatyard due to drawing too much water to moor in the cove near my Grandparent's summer cottage (now my Parent's cottage), but over the years that expense wasn't huge as mooring rent was based on the size range of the boat (later the rent became a flat amount and rose, but still I think was never more than $1500 for the season. Although the 21 was trailerable, we ended up storing her on a wheeled cradle at the boatyard, cost was still not bad as I recall, and working on our boat at the yard was sort of part of the "delusions of grandeur" that we felt! Over the 38 years we owned "NODROG" we spent a lot of family time aboard, every weekend was taken up by a full-day of sailing on Saturday and again on Sunday. From Father's day until Labor Day..... weekends were for sailing! Usually at least one of those sails would be to one of two local beaches accessible only by boat, where we would have a picnic lunch and swim until we looked like wrinkled prunes. Often times we stopped for lunch in a local harbor or cove, among many other visiting boats. Dreams of a bigger boat someday were always there, features like standing headroom and a truly enclosed head, or even a table to eat at down below would be great. However, we got along quite well without luxuries, we had a single-burner alcohol stove, a freshwater tank connected to a hand pump with a dishpan for a sink, food was brought aboard in a cooler along with a jug of Kool-Aide to drink, of course... having a freshwater supply meant we could also mix up a glass of Tang or later ice tea..... what fun! Well, anyway, as my Sister and I grew up, we had less time for family sails, and by then we also each had a boat of our own, I had sailed a little 6' dinghy since 1973 (when I was 9 years old) and later had a 8' pram with a 2hp outboard, by the summer after her freshman year of High School my Sister was becoming very interested in sailing but not thrilled by my little dinghy so our Parents bought her a little 8' "Howmar Hauler" sailing dinghy.... By that time I was in College and after some gentle persuasion by Dad, started taking NODROG out alone during my time off from a part-time summer job. After a few years, my Sister had a part-time job at home, and wasn't down at "the beach" as much... I was working at home too, and so sailing was a weekend only (and during a week's vacation) activity. NODROG was still used every weekend, mostly by Dad and I, but then in 1988 I bought my first "real" sailboat, an old O'DAY Widgeon (12'4").... and now I had to choose between sailing with Dad and sailing my own "pride and Joy"! Actually, I still spent most weekends out at least part of one day with Dad on NODROG, since it was a chance to sail a "big" boat. As my Parents aged, NODROG became more their boat as my Sister got married and started a family of her own (and her Husband's family also had a cottage on Cape Cod) and I moved up to my Day Sailer in 1996. Sailing on NODROG was still a treat and the features of a cabin with soft bunks to nap on and a marine head (now with holding tank!) made it quite fun. But soon, Dad found he was sailing alone a lot, Mom was starting to develop arthritis, making the climb from dinghy to boat and back less easy, I don't think Mom ever really got used to the heeling of the boat (I think she tolerated it while we kids grew up, perhaps watching us took her mind off it?) and then I had a job that kept me away from the water on weekends (retail!) for one Summer and part of the next and when I was around..... well, I wanted to use my own boat. So, in 2008 we sold our "Big" boat, after considering a few ways that I could have taken over ownership and sold my Day Sailer..... just couldn't make that idea work. Now, I sail my Day Sailer every Weekend, I used to sail solo most of the time, but now... Dad sails with me, we have a regular routine each weekend, a morning sail on Saturday, then in for lunch and I go out in the afternoon.... sometimes Dad goes out with me then.... sometimes he stays home (he now enjoys the cottage more, relaxing as well as doing gardening). Since my Dad retired i n 2004, my Parents have spent Summers at the cottage, and I come down on weekends...... my Dad and I have switched... I used to be there all Summer and he came down on Weekends. He has a little 14' powerboat and the sailing dinghy from NODROG, and prefers short daysails now. I miss the days when we went out for the whole day...... and really went somewhere.... but, trips like that aren't quite as easy in a Day Sailer as on the CAL 21, plus I'm still single and honestly.... half the fun of those trips was the family aspect, and later the Father/Son aspect.... so going alone is not quite the same. I could still make some of those long sails, but it would mean leaving Dad home, and I enjoy having him with me too much. I am now dreaming of my "someday dream boat", the Day Sailer is nice and low-cost, but as I age (hit the big 5-0 last year!) a head inside even a small cabin would be REAL nice, a cabin with at least a small space for a galley, a place to get out of the rain, or at times the sun! A boat with the stiff feel of a ballast keel, yet still shoal-draft (I'm too used to the 3'9" CB down draft, where if I hit shallow water the CB just kicks up a bit, 4'3" still seems deep!) I still find that I sail the DS II as a "big" boat, I keep some drink boxes and pouches aboard, have snack crackers in individual packages, once a season or so I do eat lunch aboard, but I miss the "Big boat" feel of the CAL 21. Well, someday...... but to me I would consider a boat, even as small as 18-19' to be "BIG", sure I"d love to sail a CAL 25, or bigger..... actually the 1980's CAL 22 would be a "YACHT" to me! The CAL 20 might even be shallow enough for my cove mooring. But, financial reality, says that for me a 18-22' boat wil be as big as I ever get (and even then it won't be soon!) I have to agree that, to a point.... the amount that a boat gets used is often in inverse proportion to her size (small boat, lots of use..... bigger boat, less use) at least for day sailing. Yet, I also have to admit...... that I can be sailing in my DS II a lot quicker than on my old Widgeon or even the sailing dinghies, and so am more likely to use the DS II. Why?? Well, the DS II sits on her mooring just like the CAL 21........ mainsail is furled on the boom under a cover, jib is bagged on deck. Outboard is clamped to transom, ready for use (lately with gas tank also aboard), all gear except the life jacket that I wear, and the small duffel bag of items that I take with (hand-held radio, camera, a cold drink, etc) is already on the boat. I just need to grab my life jacket and the oars for the dinghy! Our cottage is a short (maybe 0.2 mi) walk to the beach and the haulout line for my dinghy...... My Widgeon required bending on the sails (kept at the house) and if I wanted to have the outboard.... well, that was off the boat too since I couldn't leave it on the boat in case she filled with rainwater. Sailing dinghy required carrying the mast, boom, sail, rudder, daggerboard, lifejacket, and paddle or oars down to beach. So, I guess I somewhat agree with both statements about likelihood of sailboat usage! But, I don't think it really relates to size as much as the time needed to leave. A small boat that you can sail "on impulse" may get used more than a larger one that requires more preparation and crew. Yet, a big boat kept within walking (or biking? Ask Chris Campbell!) distance of home, that one can easily be sailing on a moments notice, will get used more than any sailboat (large or small) that requires travel or extra time to get out on. Often times, though... a "small" boat can be sailed starting closer to the mooring or dock, what I mean is that a small boat may be easier to maneuver out of the harbor under sail that a Larger one.... and thus will not require powering out beyond the harbor before raising sail. Again may depend on harbor conditions, traffic level, draft of vessel, skill of sailor, etc. Even my DS II would get used less if kept on a trailer instead of a mooring in the season! Relative age (you are only as old as you feel!) plays a part, as does your personal definition of how much is too much (time and or effort) to prevent one from using one's boat. For the first 10-15 year that we had our CAL 21, my Dad and I very often would drive the 3.5 miles to the boatyard to go out for a short sail or "putt-putt" (what we called a ride under power) on a Summer evening after he came down after work, now I rarely do that even with my boat a less than a 5 minute walk from the house! I used to come down on a Friday night after working 7 AM to 6 PM 40 miles from the beach, eat a quick supper and grab all the gear needed to go out in my little 8' pram for an evening ride, I had lights and everything needed to run after dark and so often was out until 9 PM or later. Did the same (but after a shorter work day) with the Widgeon, even taking a sandwich and soda with me for supper on board to get out earlier! Now, I tend to come down to the beach, eat supper and since by then Jeopardy is coming on <GRIN!>...... well, I guess I'll wait until Saturday morning to go sailing! "Nuf said!" I didn't mean to be so long-winded! Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II was: co-owner of "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 #285 On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 17:47:10 +0000 "'Philip A. Lewis' ph… [at] phillewis.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: Don’s response put into words my own experience. I grew up sailing an O’Day Daysailer, though back in high school in the 1960s when all the other guys wanted a Camaro or a Firebird or some such car, I was lusting for a Cal 40 and had to explain it was not a car but a cool boat. In 1997, while still sailing what had been my father’s Daysailer, I bought a 1969 Cal 34 for sailing mainly on the Columbia River in Oregon. Soon, the O’Day became neglected and hardly used. Further, as I got older it just became way too much work to take out and sail the little boat: I needed to scramble around too much and too quickly to avoid capsizing or just to maintain proper trim; there was no way to get out from under the sun or the rain or change clothes easily to deal with weather changes, no way to just anchor and cook and sleep, etc. and no head on board; the boat was less forgiving than a bigger keel boat; and there was more exposure to the elements. With the Cal 34 I can take out friends and family for day sails, overnight cruises, and even cruise over the Columbia Bar and north to Canada. And, when I go down to work on the boat and get tired, I can just go down below and nap. Frankly, for me at least, in some ways the bigger boat day sail experience is less complicated than with the smaller boat. If I was younger or more agile or really liked racing my own boat, I could see the smaller boat, but the bigger one can make life much easier. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 10:29 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Looking for Cal 27 Mark III for Sale Wow, I've been wrestling with that "rule" for some time and didn't even know it! I've loved my Santana 22 to death, but it came with all the big boat expenses and few of the benefits. Last year I decided to get just enough boat to have those benefits (a 2-27), and to get my small boat fix, I'm getting back into windsurfing and probably going to pick up an old Laser for the times when I just want to splash around with zero maintenance on whatever body of water I can drive to. It's all so clear now, and I have to agree with "the rule". From: "Donald C Dutton dn… [at] comcast.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Cc: Donald C Dutton <dn… [at] comcast.net> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Looking for Cal 27 Mark III for Sale Chris, Your reply almost perfectly mimics a “feeling” that I developed as I grew into sailing, from rank beginner to mid-level racing champ, and on to boat store owner. At one point in time I owned 9 sailboats and 8 of those boats were 19’ or shorter while one was my Cal 33-2. My experience and listening to the satisfaction levels of fellow sailors lead to a basic rule that I stated to my customers. It went something like this — 20’ and under sailboats were awesome day sailors and racers that were easily trailer launched and back home to the dock after a day of adventure. Cruising sailboats that could journey miles away from home and be lived aboard for extended stays were 27’ and larger. Despite ardent manufacturer claims to the contrary, boats in the 20 - 27’ range were not truly capable of comfortable cruising and were not conducive to easy daysailing adventure. This “rule” served me and my customers well. Now, I know the Cal 25 people are probably bristling at this notion and J-24’s are everywhere. But, the 20 - 27’ category of sailboat leads to storage and/or slip fees, additional people other than family to help crew, and the need for launching cranes and support systems for daysailing. (Ever been to a J-24 race and seen the number of people involved with launching and stepping the mast on a trailered J-24 race boat??) As I said, this was a “general rule” that developed from my experience. As I gained experience I definitely found that daysailing my Cal 33-2 by myself in protected waters was quite functional and I had many hours of fun taking her out when no one else was available. But, sailing my Laser or Sunfish or Flying Scot by myself was incredibly more effortless and ultimately enjoyable. And cruising the Cal 33-2 with family aboard was a safe and fantastic experience given the ability to easily carry refrigeration, cooking equipment, adequate room for a true head, and sleeping berths that easily fit my 6’ 2” frame and gave room and space for the children to have their own berths. Just a few thoughts developed over 35 years of sailing! Don Dutton 1986 Cal 33-2, “Quantum Evolution" On Apr 10, 2015, at 7:55 AM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: OK, I'm replying a month late to this wise comment. I've been very busy at work, where i get these e-mails, and now I'm catching up. Gerry is right on. My Cal 20 is even smaller than his Cal 24 and I'll bet it's even more fun. My mantra for years has been that small boats get sailed more than big boats. Boats reach a size at which they cannot easily be sailed single-handed. Oh, I know that it's possible to sail larger boats alone, but it's a lot more work and so it just gets done less often. On the Cal 20, all I need is time. The boat gets sailed a lot in the summer because I always have time after work. If your primary focus is cruising, and if you'll have the family along on the cruise, then a larger boat mat be appropriate. The original brochure for the Cal 20 says "Sleeps four!" But let's face it, cruising with a crew of 4 on the Cal 20 would require massive amounts of tolerance and adaptation. For most of us, the actual use of the boat tends to be mostly daysailing. I can assure you that for daysailing, the Cal 20 beats larger boats easily. It's big enough to tolerate wind and waves but small enough to be responsive and agile. Let's hear it for small boats. Chris Campbell No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3495 / Virus Database: 4311/9387 - Release Date: 03/26/15 Internal Virus Database is out of date.

On 4/12/2015 3:37 AM, Helen Horn he… [at] sbcglobal.net [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > this "blog" is one of the most delightful I have ever read on the > "list". and touching. many of us were introduced to boating by our > parents, lucky us. I got my own force 5, which I actually put in a > slip in Santa Cruz in the 80s, rigged the main with clews up the luff > and a rope halyard looped around the mast through the clews, so I > could drop the sail and leave it on the boom. used it after work and > days off, also took it to lakes. I usually used my wetsuit but > sometimes would practice with another crew(ballast), then hop on a big > boat for Wednesday beer cans. Then I got tired of going home in > drenched clothes, and getting stiffer with age. > Just a quick comment about the stiffness of age. I'll recognize that I'm really lucky not to be afflicted with severe impairments of age. Many are. But for those who, like me, enjoy pretty good physical health, the important thing is to keep moving. 6 years ago in June I got three new coronary artery stents to unplug the pipes. After a bit of recuperation I was cleared for any level of physical activity. I had begun a walking route already (did not want to be embarrassed on the treadmill for the EKG) and continued that daily. I have a route of a bit more than three miles that I do every day after work, some weekends excepted. It has a long uphill component and then up and down. I walk at a fast pace (can't run because of a nagging, persistent heel issue). It has made a huge difference in how I feel. But here's the interesting thing. I try to ride my bike to work as often as possible. I get home and feel great. Sometimes work requires formal clothing or driving to court or both, so there are some days when I must drive. Those are the days when getting outside for the walking route is the hardest. In other words, the more I sit, the more I feel like sitting. The more active I am, the more I feel like being active. The important thing is to find an activity that is appropriate for your condition and that you enjoy enough to actually do it regularly. If the activity is too hard or painful, it's really easy to find excuses not to do it. I like my daily walk. I have a headphone radio and listen to /All Things Considered/ as I do it. The seasons change around me. I greet the neighbors and their dogs, at least in the seasons when the route is covered in daylight. Best of all, for the other 23 hours of the day, I feel better than if I had been sitting, and more likely to do something active. Chris Campbell > F5 sits sadly on her trailer under cover in the driveway. Cal 29, > bought when I retired, got sailed hard for 10 years in sf bay. The > urge to go bigger got us the 36. The crew is larger, haulouts longer, > etc.but we sail as much. We were practically given a santana 22, which > has a head, tank, table, sleepable berth and now in a slip. > Economically insane. We will be giving it a chance at racing while > reupholstering the 36. I am not excited about getting wet, and > wetsuits are too hard to wear these days. Slip rent difference is > minimal. One day we may make that decision, shrink the fleet, end up > with a 29 as it's the best of all considerations for our area. > Meanwhile, any listers visiting are welcome to join us for a sail. > Helen and Edward > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From*:"rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Date*:Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 12:43 PM > *Subject*:Re: [Cal_Boats] Small vs Big boats, was: Looking for Cal 27 > Mark III for Sale [2 Attachments] > > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from rj… [at] juno.com included below] > >  > > Well, as a current owner of a 1979 O'DAY Day Sailer (Day Sailer II, > actually, with "self-bailing" cockpit and lockable cuddy) I may have a > different take on this subject. I grew up sailing on our family's > boat, a 1970 CAL 21. The 21 would "sleep" 4 and that is no lie...... > but we only did it once, most "cruising" was done with just my Dad and > I, although a couple of times my Mom came too. For 2 people (1 adult > and 1 child, later 2 adults) the 21 was more than enough for us, of > course those were the day when cruising meant getting away from > things, like camping in a tent or small trailer... we didn't take a TV > (no AC power anyway!), just an old AM/FM radio for entertainment. With > 2 "guys" aboard the marine head with no real privacy wasn't a huge > problem...... those were the times when the heads pumped right > overboard.... sounds "EECH!" now, but back then... no one thought > about those things. We even went on a 3 day cruise from Wareham to Oak > Bluffs on Marthas Vineyard once! That was a great trip that I'll never > forget! We maybe spent 5-6 nights aboard each Summer (a lot of > one-night trips) but each one was special. even if we spent the night > on the mooring at the local boatyard. > The CAL 21 did require us to rent a mooring at that boatyard due to > drawing too much water to moor in the cove near my Grandparent's > summer cottage (now my Parent's cottage), but over the years that > expense wasn't huge as mooring rent was based on the size range of the > boat (later the rent became a flat amount and rose, but still I think > was never more than $1500 for the season. Although the 21 was > trailerable, we ended up storing her on a wheeled cradle at the > boatyard, cost was still not bad as I recall, and working on our boat > at the yard was sort of part of the "delusions of grandeur" that we > felt! Over the 38 years we owned "NODROG" we spent a lot of family > time aboard, every weekend was taken up by a full-day of sailing on > Saturday and again on Sunday. From Father's day until Labor Day..... > weekends were for sailing! Usually at least one of those sails would > be to one of two local beaches accessible only by boat, where we would > have a picnic lunch and swim until we looked like wrinkled prunes. > Often times we stopped for lunch in a local harbor or cove, among many > other visiting boats. Dreams of a bigger boat someday were always > there, features like standing headroom and a truly enclosed head, or > even a table to eat at down below would be great. However, we got > along quite well without luxuries, we had a single-burner alcohol > stove, a freshwater tank connected to a hand pump with a dishpan for a > sink, food was brought aboard in a cooler along with a jug of > Kool-Aide to drink, of course... having a freshwater supply meant we > could also mix up a glass of Tang or later ice tea..... what fun! > Well, anyway, as my Sister and I grew up, we had less time for family > sails, and by then we also each had a boat of our own, I had sailed a > little 6' dinghy since 1973 (when I was 9 years old) and later had a > 8' pram with a 2hp outboard, by the summer after her freshman year of > High School my Sister was becoming very interested in sailing but not > thrilled by my little dinghy so our Parents bought her a little 8' > "Howmar Hauler" sailing dinghy.... By that time I was in College and > after some gentle persuasion by Dad, started taking NODROG out alone > during my time off from a part-time summer job. After a few years, my > Sister had a part-time job at home, and wasn't down at "the beach" as > much... I was working at home too, and so sailing was a weekend only > (and during a week's vacation) activity. NODROG was still used every > weekend, mostly by Dad and I, but then in 1988 I bought my first > "real" sailboat, an old O'DAY Widgeon (12'4").... and now I had to > choose between sailing with Dad and sailing my own "pride and Joy"! > Actually, I still spent most weekends out at least part of one day > with Dad on NODROG, since it was a chance to sail a "big" boat. As my > Parents aged, NODROG became more their boat as my Sister got married > and started a family of her own (and her Husband's family also had a > cottage on Cape Cod) and I moved up to my Day Sailer in 1996. Sailing > on NODROG was still a treat and the features of a cabin with soft > bunks to nap on and a marine head (now with holding tank!) made it > quite fun. But soon, Dad found he was sailing alone a lot, Mom was > starting to develop arthritis, making the climb from dinghy to boat > and back less easy, I don't think Mom ever really got used to the > heeling of the boat (I think she tolerated it while we kids grew up, > perhaps watching us took her mind off it?) and then I had a job that > kept me away from the water on weekends (retail!) for one Summer and > part of the next and when I was around..... well, I wanted to use my > own boat. So, in 2008 we sold our "Big" boat, after considering a few > ways that I could have taken over ownership and sold my Day > Sailer..... just couldn't make that idea work. > Now, I sail my Day Sailer every Weekend, I used to sail solo most of > the time, but now... Dad sails with me, we have a regular routine each > weekend, a morning sail on Saturday, then in for lunch and I go out in > the afternoon.... sometimes Dad goes out with me then.... sometimes he > stays home (he now enjoys the cottage more, relaxing as well as doing > gardening). Since my Dad retired i n 2004, my Parents have spent > Summers at the cottage, and I come down on weekends...... my Dad and I > have switched... I used to be there all Summer and he came down on > Weekends. He has a little 14' powerboat and the sailing dinghy from > NODROG, and prefers short daysails now. I miss the days when we went > out for the whole day...... and really went somewhere.... but, trips > like that aren't quite as easy in a Day Sailer as on the CAL 21, plus > I'm still single and honestly.... half the fun of those trips was the > family aspect, and later the Father/Son aspect.... so going alone is > not quite the same. I could still make some of those long sails, but > it would mean leaving Dad home, and I enjoy having him with me too much. > I am now dreaming of my "someday dream boat", the Day Sailer is nice > and low-cost, but as I age (hit the big 5-0 last year!) a head inside > even a small cabin would be REAL nice, a cabin with at least a small > space for a galley, a place to get out of the rain, or at times the > sun! A boat with the stiff feel of a ballast keel, yet still > shoal-draft (I'm too used to the 3'9" CB down draft, where if I hit > shallow water the CB just kicks up a bit, 4'3" still seems deep!) I > still find that I sail the DS II as a "big" boat, I keep some drink > boxes and pouches aboard, have snack crackers in individual packages, > once a season or so I do eat lunch aboard, but I miss the "Big boat" > feel of the CAL 21. > Well, someday...... but to me I would consider a boat, even as small > as 18-19' to be "BIG", sure I"d love to sail a CAL 25, or bigger..... > actually the 1980's CAL 22 would be a "YACHT" to me! The CAL 20 might > even be shallow enough for my cove mooring. But, financial reality, > says that for me a 18-22' boat wil be as big as I ever get (and even > then it won't be soon!) I have to agree that, to a point.... the > amount that a boat gets used is often in inverse proportion to her > size (small boat, lots of use..... bigger boat, less use) at least for > day sailing. Yet, I also have to admit...... that I can be sailing in > my DS II a lot quicker than on my old Widgeon or even the sailing > dinghies, and so am more likely to use the DS II. Why?? Well, the DS > II sits on her mooring just like the CAL 21........ mainsail is furled > on the boom under a cover, jib is bagged on deck. Outboard is clamped > to transom, ready for use (lately with gas tank also aboard), all gear > except the life jacket that I wear, and the small duffel bag of items > that I take with (hand-held radio, camera, a cold drink, etc) is > already on the boat. I just need to grab my life jacket and the oars > for the dinghy! Our cottage is a short (maybe 0.2 mi) walk to the > beach and the haulout line for my dinghy...... > My Widgeon required bending on the sails (kept at the house) and if I > wanted to have the outboard.... well, that was off the boat too since > I couldn't leave it on the boat in case she filled with rainwater. > Sailing dinghy required carrying the mast, boom, sail, rudder, > daggerboard, lifejacket, and paddle or oars down to beach. > So, I guess I somewhat agree with both statements about likelihood of > sailboat usage! > /*But, I don't think it really relates to size as much as the > time needed to leave.* *A small boat that you can sail "on impulse" > may get used more than a larger one that requires more preparation and > crew. Yet, a big boat kept within walking (or biking? Ask Chris > Campbell!) distance of home, that one can easily be sailing on a > moments notice, will get used more than any sailboat (large or small) > that requires travel or extra time to get out on.*/ > *//* > *Often times, though... a "small" boat can be sailed starting closer > to the mooring or dock, what I mean is that a small boat may be easier > to maneuver out of the harbor under sail that a Larger one.... and > thus will not require powering out beyond the harbor before raising > sail. Again may depend on harbor conditions, traffic level, draft of > vessel, skill of sailor, etc.* > Even my DS II would get used less if kept on a trailer instead of a > mooring in the season! > Relative age (you are only as old as you feel!) plays a part, as does > your personal definition of how much is too much (time and or effort) > to prevent one from using one's boat. For the first 10-15 year that we > had our CAL 21, my Dad and I very often would drive the 3.5 miles to > the boatyard to go out for a short sail or "putt-putt" (what we called > a ride under power) on a Summer evening after he came down after work, > now I rarely do that even with my boat a less than a 5 minute walk > from the house! I used to come down on a Friday night after working 7 > AM to 6 PM 40 miles from the beach, eat a quick supper and grab all > the gear needed to go out in my little 8' pram for an evening ride, I > had lights and everything needed to run after dark and so often was > out until 9 PM or later. Did the same (but after a shorter work day) > with the Widgeon, even taking a sandwich and soda with me for supper > on board to get out earlier! Now, I tend to come down to the beach, > eat supper and since by then Jeopardy is coming on <GRIN!>...... well, > I guess I'll wait until Saturday morning to go sailing! > "Nuf said!" I didn't mean to be so long-winded! > Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" > 1979 O'DAY DS II > was: co-owner of "NODROG" > 1970 CAL 21 #285 > On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 17:47:10 +0000 "'Philip A. Lewis' > ph… [at] phillewis.com <javascript:return> [Cal_Boats]" > <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <javascript:return>> writes: > > Don’s response put into words my own experience. I grew up > sailing an O’Day Daysailer, though back in high school in the > 1960s when all the other guys wanted a Camaro or a Firebird or > some such car, I was lusting for a Cal 40 and had to explain it > was not a car but a cool boat. In 1997, while still sailing what > had been my father’s Daysailer, I bought a 1969 Cal 34 for sailing > mainly on the Columbia River in Oregon. Soon, the O’Day became > neglected and hardly used. Further, as I got older it just became > way too much work to take out and sail the little boat: I needed > to scramble around too much and too quickly to avoid capsizing or > just to maintain proper trim; there was no way to get out from > under the sun or the rain or change clothes easily to deal with > weather changes, no way to just anchor and cook and sleep, etc. > and no head on board; the boat was less forgiving than a bigger > keel boat; and there was more exposure to the elements. With the > Cal 34 I can take out friends and family for day sails, overnight > cruises, and even cruise over the Columbia Bar and north to > Canada. And, when I go down to work on the boat and get tired, I > can just go down below and nap. Frankly, for me at least, in some > ways the bigger boat day sail experience is less complicated than > with the smaller boat. If I was younger or more agile or really > liked racing my own boat, I could see the smaller boat, but the > bigger one can make life much easier. > > *From:*Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > *Sent:* Friday, April 10, 2015 10:29 AM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Looking for Cal 27 Mark III for Sale > > Wow, I've been wrestling with that "rule" for some time and didn't > even know it! I've loved my Santana 22 to death, but it came with > all the big boat expenses and few of the benefits. Last year I > decided to get just enough boat to have those benefits (a 2-27), > and to get my small boat fix, I'm getting back into windsurfing > and probably going to pick up an old Laser for the times when I > just want to splash around with zero maintenance on whatever body > of water I can drive to. > > It's all so clear now, and I have to agree with "the rule". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*"Donald C Dutton dn… [at] comcast.net [Cal_Boats]" > <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Cc:* Donald C Dutton <dn… [at] comcast.net> > *Sent:* Friday, April 10, 2015 9:35 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Looking for Cal 27 Mark III for Sale > > Chris, > > Your reply almost perfectly mimics a “feeling” that I developed as > I grew into sailing, from rank beginner to mid-level racing champ, > and on to boat store owner. At one point in time I owned 9 > sailboats and 8 of those boats were 19’ or shorter while one was > my Cal 33-2. My experience and listening to the satisfaction > levels of fellow sailors lead to a basic rule that I stated to my > customers. It went something like this — 20’ and under sailboats > were awesome day sailors and racers that were easily trailer > launched and back home to the dock after a day of adventure. > Cruising sailboats that could journey miles away from home and be > lived aboard for extended stays were 27’ and larger. Despite > ardent manufacturer claims to the contrary, boats in the 20 - 27’ > range were not truly capable of comfortable cruising and were not > conducive to easy daysailing adventure. This “rule” served me and > my customers well. > > Now, I know the Cal 25 people are probably bristling at this > notion and J-24’s are everywhere. But, the 20 - 27’ category of > sailboat leads to storage and/or slip fees, additional people > other than family to help crew, and the need for launching cranes > and support systems for daysailing. (Ever been to a J-24 race and > seen the number of people involved with launching and stepping the > mast on a trailered J-24 race boat??) > > As I said, this was a “general rule” that developed from my > experience. As I gained experience I definitely found that > daysailing my Cal 33-2 by myself in protected waters was quite > functional and I had many hours of fun taking her out when no one > else was available. But, sailing my Laser or Sunfish or Flying > Scot by myself was incredibly more effortless and ultimately > enjoyable. And cruising the Cal 33-2 with family aboard was a > safe and fantastic experience given the ability to easily carry > refrigeration, cooking equipment, adequate room for a true head, > and sleeping berths that easily fit my 6’ 2” frame and gave room > and space for the children to have their own berths. > > Just a few thoughts developed over 35 years of sailing! > > Don Dutton > > 1986 Cal 33-2, “Quantum Evolution" > > On Apr 10, 2015, at 7:55 AM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org > <javascript:return> [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <javascript:return>> wrote: > > OK, I'm replying a month late to this wise comment. I've been > very busy at work, where i get these e-mails, and now I'm > catching up. > > Gerry is right on. My Cal 20 is even smaller than his Cal 24 > and I'll bet it's even more fun. My mantra for years has been > that small boats get sailed more than big boats. Boats reach > a size at which they cannot easily be sailed single-handed. > Oh, I know that it's possible to sail larger boats alone, but > it's a lot more work and so it just gets done less often. On > the Cal 20, all I need is time. The boat gets sailed a lot in > the summer because I always have time after work. > > If your primary focus is cruising, and if you'll have the > family along on the cruise, then a larger boat mat be > appropriate. The original brochure for the Cal 20 says "Sleeps > four!" But let's face it, cruising with a crew of 4 on the > Cal 20 would require massive amounts of tolerance and adaptation. > > For most of us, the actual use of the boat tends to be mostly > daysailing. I can assure you that for daysailing, the Cal 20 > beats larger boats easily. It's big enough to tolerate wind > and waves but small enough to be responsive and agile. Let's > hear it for small boats. > > Chris Campbell > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > Version: 2013.0.3495 / Virus Database: 4311/9387 - Release Date: > 03/26/15 > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > > >