Re: Harbor Occupancy was End of season - David Dobbs

David, you migh be on to something about sailboat use. i have listed my 1979 CAL39MKII here in Miami, practically giving it away for $22K. You will think that any caribbean bound couple would take this, but for the most part people were not interested even if I posted in cruising forums, boat trader, sailboat owners listing, and local craiglist.

On 10/13/2015 11:45 AM, Carlos Solanilla ca… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > David, you migh be on to something about sailboat use. i have listed my 1979 CAL39MKII here in Miami, practically giving it away for $22K. You will think that any caribbean bound couple would take this, but for the most part people were not interested even if I posted in cruising forums, boat trader, sailboat owners listing, and local craiglist. I wonder if it's just a shift in expectations. Remember that the Cal 40 was "revolutionary" because the accepted wisdom was that fin keels and spade rudders were unsuitable to offshore work. Offshore sailing was the major criterion for capable boats. Now look at the various Eurostyle floating condos that are marketed today. Does the concept of bluewater sailing affect any of the marketing? No. We get photos of vast spaces below, with vases of flowers sitting on the dining table, and multiple private cabins with individual heads. Are there even hand holds so when that vast interior is at an angle of heel you can grab on to something? No. I remember the first time I went aboard a Concordia yawl. Here's a 39 foot boat with pretty tight accommodations below. From a sailing point of view, that made sense. From a vacation-condo point, not so much. Prosperity affected expectation. When I was a kid, there were two racing fleets in my home town. There was a big Lightning fleet and a smaller 110 fleet. There were a few races for larger boats, like the O'Day Mariner (keel version) that I crewed on for an annual race 30 miles out and back. One guy had a Pearson Triton, a big boat at 28 feet. Now nobody would consider buying such a tiny vessel for cruising. I didn't see any Lightnings racing this summer--just one out for a daysail. Also, there's a constant accumulation of more and more plastic sailboats. They keep making new ones and the fleet of old ones does not diminish as rapidly. There's still some truth in supply and demand. There are many cheap boats and they tend to compete with those of us who maintain our vessels and think they're worth a lot. A new sailor might not understand the difference. It's easy to lament to loss of the virtues of the good old days and it gets us nowhere. We don't really have any hard data at hand. I wonder what the numbers of registered sailboats is in the US and what the changes have been over time. It would probably be harder to come up with data on numbers of people who sail, but the numbers of registered boats would probably be a usable proxy. Meanwhile, we can all do our part by talking up sailing as an activity and maybe engaging other people in it. Chris Campbell >

Regatta attendance in general is down. I think it will continue to get harder and harder to sell a used sailboat, especially as so many marinas add restrictions on work that can be done. The cost effectiveness of refurbishing an old boat is pretty much nil. Large supply of old boats keeps the selling price down in addition to expensive fees, hard/technical work if the boat needs major work. It's just not what many people want to do. When I was young, my dad used to buy a new cal about every 2 years. He would buy a hull w no fittings, put all the hardware on and sell it for a small profit every two years. Not going to happen today. Today, you will probably take a 40k hit on a new boat after two years. Jim East Coast Cal 29 sailor On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:20 PM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > On 10/13/2015 11:45 AM, Carlos Solanilla ca… [at] yahoo.com > [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > David, you migh be on to something about sailboat use. i have listed my > 1979 CAL39MKII here in Miami, practically giving it away for $22K. You will > think that any caribbean bound couple would take this, but for the most > part people were not interested even if I posted in cruising forums, boat > trader, sailboat owners listing, and local craiglist. > > I wonder if it's just a shift in expectations. Remember that the Cal 40 > was "revolutionary" because the accepted wisdom was that fin keels and > spade rudders were unsuitable to offshore work. Offshore sailing was > the major criterion for capable boats. Now look at the various > Eurostyle floating condos that are marketed today. Does the concept of > bluewater sailing affect any of the marketing? No. We get photos of > vast spaces below, with vases of flowers sitting on the dining table, > and multiple private cabins with individual heads. Are there even hand > holds so when that vast interior is at an angle of heel you can grab on > to something? No. I remember the first time I went aboard a Concordia > yawl. Here's a 39 foot boat with pretty tight accommodations below. > From a sailing point of view, that made sense. From a vacation-condo > point, not so much. > > Prosperity affected expectation. When I was a kid, there were two > racing fleets in my home town. There was a big Lightning fleet and a > smaller 110 fleet. There were a few races for larger boats, like the > O'Day Mariner (keel version) that I crewed on for an annual race 30 > miles out and back. One guy had a Pearson Triton, a big boat at 28 > feet. Now nobody would consider buying such a tiny vessel for > cruising. I didn't see any Lightnings racing this summer--just one out > for a daysail. > > Also, there's a constant accumulation of more and more plastic > sailboats. They keep making new ones and the fleet of old ones does not > diminish as rapidly. There's still some truth in supply and demand. > There are many cheap boats and they tend to compete with those of us who > maintain our vessels and think they're worth a lot. A new sailor might > not understand the difference. > > It's easy to lament to loss of the virtues of the good old days and it > gets us nowhere. We don't really have any hard data at hand. I wonder > what the numbers of registered sailboats is in the US and what the > changes have been over time. It would probably be harder to come up > with data on numbers of people who sail, but the numbers of registered > boats would probably be a usable proxy. Meanwhile, we can all do our > part by talking up sailing as an activity and maybe engaging other > people in it. > > Chris Campbell > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > > >

On 10/13/2015 4:34 PM, 'sailor7312 .' sa… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > Regatta attendance in general is down. I think it will continue to > get harder and harder to sell a used sailboat, especially as so many > marinas add restrictions on work that can be done. The cost > effectiveness of refurbishing an old boat is pretty much nil. Large > supply of old boats keeps the selling price down in addition to > expensive fees, hard/technical work if the boat needs major work. > It's just not what many people want to do. > > When I was young, my dad used to buy a new cal about every 2 years. > He would buy a hull w no fittings, put all the hardware on and sell it > for a small profit every two years. Not going to happen today. Today, > you will probably take a 40k hit on a new boat after two years. Buying a boat has never been a sound financial decision. (Look at powerboats, for goodness' sake. Talk about taking a financial hit.) If you're doing it to make money you're even crazier than the average sailor. The real reason to go sailing is to have an enjoyable experience. Some of us enjoy the challenge of making the boat go efficiently and safely in changing conditions. Some really enjoy competition. For me, another aspect is the pleasure of maintaining and improving the boat. It's a chance to display craftsmanship. There are challenges in diagnosing problems and devising solutions. There is the challenge of doing the job, be it a repair or a modification, in a way that's effective, durable, and competent. I was thinking about that when I was admiring the nice J-29 that got hauled ahead of me on Monday. The yard guys said the current owner had bought a wreck of a boat and spent a lot of time and energy fixing it up. It showed the results of his efforts. The hardware looked like somebody had planned it carefully. The paintwork looked good. It was plainly a boat that somebody cared about and enjoyed sailing. We misrepresent sailing if we only talk about fun in the sun. I always say that nobody remembers the lovely perfect summer days. We remember the times when we dealt with too much or too little wind or waves or depth or temperature. Sometimes all of the above. But we should also consider boat ownership as a total experience, including the part about equipping and maintaining the boat so it is safe and efficient and durable. Chris Campbell > >

Through the late 70's and early 80's, buying a boat was a decent investment, at least for us. My dad turned a decent small profit on every boat, all Cal's. (2 cal 20's, 2 cal 25's, 1 cal 2-27). I made my way in my teenage years by reading the trading post every week, looking for old sail boats(small) fixing them up and selling them. I would do one a year. Crazy, no. It worked for a while. But today's economics don't support it at all. Anything I put into my cal 29 today is essentially a loss, w the only return on investment being the enjoyment. As a result, I invest very little in my 29. I agree boat ownership is a total experience. I just find fewer and fewer people are interested in the totality of it. Jim East Coast Cal 29 sailor. On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 9:27 AM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > On 10/13/2015 4:34 PM, 'sailor7312 .' sa… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] > wrote: > > Regatta attendance in general is down. I think it will continue to get > harder and harder to sell a used sailboat, especially as so many marinas > add restrictions on work that can be done. The cost effectiveness of > refurbishing an old boat is pretty much nil. Large supply of old boats > keeps the selling price down in addition to expensive fees, hard/technical > work if the boat needs major work. > It's just not what many people want to do. > > When I was young, my dad used to buy a new cal about every 2 years. He > would buy a hull w no fittings, put all the hardware on and sell it for a > small profit every two years. Not going to happen today. Today, you will > probably take a 40k hit on a new boat after two years. > > > Buying a boat has never been a sound financial decision. (Look at > powerboats, for goodness' sake. Talk about taking a financial hit.) If > you're doing it to make money you're even crazier than the average sailor. > > The real reason to go sailing is to have an enjoyable experience. Some of > us enjoy the challenge of making the boat go efficiently and safely in > changing conditions. Some really enjoy competition. For me, another > aspect is the pleasure of maintaining and improving the boat. It's a chance > to display craftsmanship. There are challenges in diagnosing problems and > devising solutions. There is the challenge of doing the job, be it a > repair or a modification, in a way that's effective, durable, and > competent. I was thinking about that when I was admiring the nice J-29 > that got hauled ahead of me on Monday. The yard guys said the current > owner had bought a wreck of a boat and spent a lot of time and energy > fixing it up. It showed the results of his efforts. The hardware looked > like somebody had planned it carefully. The paintwork looked good. It was > plainly a boat that somebody cared about and enjoyed sailing. > > We misrepresent sailing if we only talk about fun in the sun. I always > say that nobody remembers the lovely perfect summer days. We remember the > times when we dealt with too much or too little wind or waves or depth or > temperature. Sometimes all of the above. But we should also consider boat > ownership as a total experience, including the part about equipping and > maintaining the boat so it is safe and efficient and durable. > > Chris Campbell > > > > > >