Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed?

Hello folks, I need to re-seal some t-rails.sheet tracks. West marine will sell me anything..toothpast, SuperBLue, thei 3M 4200, sure..it all works. What do YOU have good experience with. And, yesterday, on MRY Bay.13 kts winds..I saw 6.4 out of my Cal 2-25! According to Raymarine and GPS. I was excited!! Tell-tales were doing their thing! Thanks. ..tom --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Tom, We always use butyl tape for any deck sealing (t-tracks as well) and as long as you have large fender washers behind the nuts, and a clean surface to start it should seal well. We just put a small 'o-ring' of material around each hole and another one on the countersunk screw head, re-tighten after a week and you should be great. Greg From: "'TomDressler' tb… [at] verizon.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 9:28 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Hello folks,I need to re-seal some t-rails…sheet tracks.West marine will sell me anything..toothpast, SuperBLue, thei 3M 4200, sure..it all works. What do YOU have good experience with. And, yesterday, on MRY Bay…13 kts winds..I saw 6.4 out of my Cal 2-25! According to Raymarine and GPS.I was excited!!Tell-tales were doing their thing! Thanks. ..tom | | This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com |

Thank you. The problem I am trying to solve is this: Aft-starboard ‘berth’ leaks. It’s coming from the top because the carpet on the side is wet from the top. I WILL resolve it! Water stays OUTSIDE. : ) It’s either coming from that jib sheet track or the rubrail…or someplace even scarier. So far, I have only noticed it when it rains. I don’t go out in bow-breaking weather and I’m not good or brave enough to heel that far over! Last time I went out in ‘Small Craft’, I was reprimanded…even though I had a blast! : ) So I thought I would start by re-sealing the 19 bolts that hold that track down. Easier than re-doing the rub rail. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 9:37 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Tom, We always use butyl tape for any deck sealing (t-tracks as well) and as long as you have large fender washers behind the nuts, and a clean surface to start it should seal well. We just put a small 'o-ring' of material around each hole and another one on the countersunk screw head, re-tighten after a week and you should be great. Greg _____ From: "'TomDressler' tb… [at] verizon.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 9:28 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Hello folks, I need to re-seal some t-rails…sheet tracks. West marine will sell me anything..toothpast, SuperBLue, thei 3M 4200, sure..it all works. What do YOU have good experience with. And, yesterday, on MRY Bay…13 kts winds..I saw 6.4 out of my Cal 2-25! According to Raymarine and GPS. I was excited!! Tell-tales were doing their thing! Thanks. ..tom _____ <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

I had some leak problems with my 2-27. Turned out it was some screws in the rub rail were tight. I sealed the screws with caulk and tightened them down. No further issues. From: "'TomDressler' tb… [at] verizon.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 2:05 PM Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Thank you.The problem I am trying to solve is this:Aft-starboard ‘berth’ leaks.It’s coming from the top because the carpet on the side is wet from the top.I WILL resolve it! Water stays OUTSIDE.: )It’s either coming from that jib sheet track or the rubrail…or someplace even scarier.So far, I have only noticed it when it rains. I don’t go out in bow-breaking weather and I’m not good or brave enough to heel that far over!Last time I went out in ‘Small Craft’, I was reprimanded…even though I had a blast!: )So I thought I would start by re-sealing the 19 bolts that hold that track down.Easier than re-doing the rub rail. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 9:37 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Tom, We always use butyl tape for any deck sealing (t-tracks as well) and as long as you have large fender washers behind the nuts, and a clean surface to start it should seal well. We just put a small 'o-ring' of material around each hole and another one on the countersunk screw head, re-tighten after a week and you should be great. GregFrom: "'TomDressler' tb… [at] verizon.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 9:28 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Hello folks,I need to re-seal some t-rails…sheet tracks.West marine will sell me anything..toothpast, SuperBLue, thei 3M 4200, sure..it all works. What do YOU have good experience with. And, yesterday, on MRY Bay…13 kts winds..I saw 6.4 out of my Cal 2-25! According to Raymarine and GPS.I was excited!!Tell-tales were doing their thing! Thanks. ..tom | | This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com | | | This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com |

Tom, Helen here, sorry about reprimand😐, but you have done better than some starters who had to call rescue when not quite ready to manage singlehanded. Love the enthusiasm you show, especially taking advantage of your vacation regardless. The sealants are all with challenges. In all cases you will need a hand from below..With butyl you must hold screw on top in one spot while nut is turned below. If you take the track off and clean hole, you can check for rotting of deck (hopefully none) and epoxy into laminate before resealing. It is sometimes advisable to make slight countersink for new bedding. There are articles to walk you through process of hardware rebedding. And, the list will advise you, Cals sail better "on their feet" by design, no need to bury the rail. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 11:05 AM, 'TomDressler' tb… [at] verizon.net [Cal_Boats]<Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Thank you. The problem I am trying to solve is this: Aft-starboard ‘berth’ leaks. It’s coming from the top because the carpet on the side is wet from the top. I WILL resolve it! Water stays OUTSIDE. : ) It’s either coming from that jib sheet track or the rubrail…or someplace even scarier. So far, I have only noticed it when it rains. I don’t go out in bow-breaking weather and I’m not good or brave enough to heel that far over! Last time I went out in ‘Small Craft’, I was reprimanded…even though I had a blast! : ) So I thought I would start by re-sealing the 19 bolts that hold that track down. Easier than re-doing the rub rail. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 9:37 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Tom, We always use butyl tape for any deck sealing (t-tracks as well) and as long as you have large fender washers behind the nuts, and a clean surface to start it should seal well. We just put a small 'o-ring' of material around each hole and another one on the countersunk screw head, re-tighten after a week and you should be great. Greg From: "'TomDressler' tb… [at] verizon.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 9:28 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Hello folks, I need to re-seal some t-rails…sheet tracks. West marine will sell me anything..toothpast, SuperBLue, thei 3M 4200, sure..it all works. What do YOU have good experience with. And, yesterday, on MRY Bay…13 kts winds..I saw 6.4 out of my Cal 2-25! According to Raymarine and GPS. I was excited!! Tell-tales were doing their thing! Thanks. ..tom | | This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com | | | This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com |

I knew what you meant…no offense taken. An old salt at my marina also asked what I was doing? I said…”exceeding my rated hull speed, tuning sails, reading the water, the wind, the swells and loving it!” J He suggested I not do that again because he was just beginning to like me. The track..yes..19 screws from the top and 19 buried bolts beneath. I know this is not my last boat, but I want it to be right for me and for the next owner. Lady Google has a lot of information for sure but the internets are only as good as the author. : ) Sailing for me has become an escape. Nothing sounds nicer than when I shut off the yappy Yanmar and hear the water slapping on the hull. My ‘monkey mind’ quiets down significantly. Thank you for the input. ..tom From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 11:29 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Tom, Helen here, sorry about reprimand😐, but you have done better than some starters who had to call rescue when not quite ready to manage singlehanded. Love the enthusiasm you show, especially taking advantage of your vacation regardless. The sealants are all with challenges. In all cases you will need a hand from below..With butyl you must hold screw on top in one spot while nut is turned below. If you take the track off and clean hole, you can check for rotting of deck (hopefully none) and epoxy into laminate before resealing. It is sometimes advisable to make slight countersink for new bedding. There are articles to walk you through process of hardware rebedding. And, the list will advise you, Cals sail better "on their feet" by design, no need to bury the rail. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android> Thank you. The problem I am trying to solve is this: Aft-starboard ‘berth’ leaks. It’s coming from the top because the carpet on the side is wet from the top. I WILL resolve it! Water stays OUTSIDE. : ) It’s either coming from that jib sheet track or the rubrail…or someplace even scarier. So far, I have only noticed it when it rains. I don’t go out in bow-breaking weather and I’m not good or brave enough to heel that far over! Last time I went out in ‘Small Craft’, I was reprimanded…even though I had a blast! : ) So I thought I would start by re-sealing the 19 bolts that hold that track down. Easier than re-doing the rub rail. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 9:37 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Tom, We always use butyl tape for any deck sealing (t-tracks as well) and as long as you have large fender washers behind the nuts, and a clean surface to start it should seal well. We just put a small 'o-ring' of material around each hole and another one on the countersunk screw head, re-tighten after a week and you should be great. Greg _____ From: "'TomDressler' tb… [at] verizon.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 9:28 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Hello folks, I need to re-seal some t-rails…sheet tracks. West marine will sell me anything..toothpast, SuperBLue, thei 3M 4200, sure..it all works. What do YOU have good experience with. And, yesterday, on MRY Bay…13 kts winds..I saw 6.4 out of my Cal 2-25! According to Raymarine and GPS. I was excited!! Tell-tales were doing their thing! Thanks. ..tom _____ <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> _____ <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> Avast logo This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus> --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

As far as adhesive/caulk, here is my "rule of thumbs" 5200 - only if you never want to take apart in the future :) 4200 - UV protection is an added bonus. It will eventually shrink and leak. Other 3m products work. Expect chalking and leaks from shrinkage earlier than the two above. silicone based caulk work short term on material of different materials. Metal, acrylic, or FRP. If you use silicone, nothing will stick in that area again, Including more silicone and especially paint. Life caulk and life seal are silicone based caulking. I prefer not to use. I have not used the butyl rubber yet. I will try for my hatches and other deck mounted items. Caulk/adhesive does not last in these areas. Check for wet core at any deck mounted items. Small repairs with epoxy will help prevent additional wetting but may help core rot if wet material so not completely removed. Good luck John Raxter 336-210-8073 (m) > On Jan 11, 2016, at 12:28 PM, 'TomDressler' tb… [at] verizon.net [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Hello folks, > > I need to re-seal some t-rails…sheet tracks. > > West marine will sell me anything..toothpast, SuperBLue, thei 3M 4200, sure..it all works. > > > > What do YOU have good experience with. > > > > And, yesterday, on MRY Bay…13 kts winds..I saw 6.4 out of my Cal 2-25! According to Raymarine and GPS. > > I was excited!! > > Tell-tales were doing their thing! > > > > Thanks. > > > > ..tom > > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > >

On 1/11/2016 3:14 PM, Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > As far as adhesive/caulk, here is my "rule of thumbs" > > 5200 - only if you never want to take apart in the future :) Agreed wholeheartedly. Too many people think this is a miracle goo. It comes back to haunt the next owner. > > > Life caulk and life seal are silicone based caulking. I prefer not to > use. Unless they've changed the formula, only Life Seal is silicone-based. Life Caulk is polysulfide rubber. Good stuff. I've used it for years on the toe rail of my other boat, which is varnished mahogany. Varnish adheres well to the Life Caulk and it does not leave an evil residue, as silicones do. > > I have not used the butyl rubber yet. I will try for my hatches and > other deck mounted items. Caulk/adhesive does not last in these areas. On advice of this list, I have used it for bedding hardware on my Cal 20--very satisfied. The stuff is dirt cheap at the RV store, it's easy to use, and it stays flexible. One advantage is that it's very viscous so it doesn't all squeeze out. When I was young and stupid (young a long time ago, stupid as recently as yesterday), I would mount hardware using a sealer and then I'd crank away on the fasteners until all the goo squeezed out. Of course, that meant that there was very little goo left to seal the surfaces or to absorb relative motion between them. Then I learned two tricks to solve that problem. One is to use dimes or washers to keep the hardware up off the mounting surface a little bit while the sealer cures. When it does, it forms a gasket. Then you can remove the spacers and tighten the nuts (don't rotate the bolts or machine screws) a little bit. The other trick is to use a countersink to chamfer the mounting holes a little bit. This makes the sealer a bit thicker right around the fastener, sort of like an O-ring around it. Finally, always remember the roofing rule. When your roof leaks, the actual point of ingress is almost always higher than where you spot the water coming in. If your boat has a liner on the overhead, the same could be true there. > > Check for wet core at any deck mounted items. Small repairs with epoxy > will help prevent additional wetting but may help core rot if wet > material so not completely removed. Sound advice. My Cal 20 had a TINY deck crack at the corner of the forward hatch. Suddenly there was moisture in the plywood core. On the Cal 20, it's clear-finished down below so I could see it. but the crack was so tiny that it couldn't possibly be coming in there. Well, guess what. And on most boats, you can't see the damage happening so things get much worse. Chris Campbell Oh, P.S. It's OK to be out in challenging conditions. We can't always avoid it, so it's good to have some experience before we get caught out in a blow. But it's important to distinguish between taking reasonable risks and being really foolhardy. Your experienced neighbors seem to feel that you fell on the wrong side of that line. That may be a sign.

Go to Ebay and you can find a ton of sellers for the Butyl tape. As stated, very cheap. I have bought a couple of rolls and when weather permits I am planning to start re-bedding some deck hardware on Puffin. On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:10 PM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > On 1/11/2016 3:14 PM, Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > As far as adhesive/caulk, here is my "rule of thumbs" > > 5200 - only if you never want to take apart in the future :) > > > Agreed wholeheartedly. Too many people think this is a miracle goo. It > comes back to haunt the next owner. > > > > Life caulk and life seal are silicone based caulking. I prefer not to use. > > > Unless they've changed the formula, only Life Seal is silicone-based. > Life Caulk is polysulfide rubber. Good stuff. I've used it for years on > the toe rail of my other boat, which is varnished mahogany. Varnish > adheres well to the Life Caulk and it does not leave an evil residue, as > silicones do. > > > I have not used the butyl rubber yet. I will try for my hatches and other > deck mounted items. Caulk/adhesive does not last in these areas. > > > On advice of this list, I have used it for bedding hardware on my Cal > 20--very satisfied. The stuff is dirt cheap at the RV store, it's easy to > use, and it stays flexible. One advantage is that it's very viscous so it > doesn't all squeeze out. > > When I was young and stupid (young a long time ago, stupid as recently as > yesterday), I would mount hardware using a sealer and then I'd crank away > on the fasteners until all the goo squeezed out. Of course, that meant > that there was very little goo left to seal the surfaces or to absorb > relative motion between them. Then I learned two tricks to solve that > problem. One is to use dimes or washers to keep the hardware up off the > mounting surface a little bit while the sealer cures. When it does, it > forms a gasket. Then you can remove the spacers and tighten the nuts > (don't rotate the bolts or machine screws) a little bit. The other trick > is to use a countersink to chamfer the mounting holes a little bit. This > makes the sealer a bit thicker right around the fastener, sort of like an > O-ring around it. > > Finally, always remember the roofing rule. When your roof leaks, the > actual point of ingress is almost always higher than where you spot the > water coming in. If your boat has a liner on the overhead, the same could > be true there. > > > Check for wet core at any deck mounted items. Small repairs with epoxy > will help prevent additional wetting but may help core rot if wet material > so not completely removed. > > > Sound advice. My Cal 20 had a TINY deck crack at the corner of the > forward hatch. Suddenly there was moisture in the plywood core. On the > Cal 20, it's clear-finished down below so I could see it. but the crack > was so tiny that it couldn't possibly be coming in there. Well, guess > what. And on most boats, you can't see the damage happening so things get > much worse. > > Chris Campbell > > Oh, P.S. It's OK to be out in challenging conditions. We can't always > avoid it, so it's good to have some experience before we get caught out in > a blow. But it's important to distinguish between taking reasonable risks > and being really foolhardy. Your experienced neighbors seem to feel that > you fell on the wrong side of that line. That may be a sign. > > >

there is a difference in quality of butyl tapes.Reggie To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 17:00:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Go to Ebay and you can find a ton of sellers for the Butyl tape. As stated, very cheap. I have bought a couple of rolls and when weather permits I am planning to start re-bedding some deck hardware on Puffin. On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:10 PM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: On 1/11/2016 3:14 PM, Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: As far as adhesive/caulk, here is my "rule of thumbs" 5200 - only if you never want to take apart in the future :) Agreed wholeheartedly. Too many people think this is a miracle goo. It comes back to haunt the next owner. Life caulk and life seal are silicone based caulking. I prefer not to use. Unless they've changed the formula, only Life Seal is silicone-based. Life Caulk is polysulfide rubber. Good stuff. I've used it for years on the toe rail of my other boat, which is varnished mahogany. Varnish adheres well to the Life Caulk and it does not leave an evil residue, as silicones do. I have not used the butyl rubber yet. I will try for my hatches and other deck mounted items. Caulk/adhesive does not last in these areas. On advice of this list, I have used it for bedding hardware on my Cal 20--very satisfied. The stuff is dirt cheap at the RV store, it's easy to use, and it stays flexible. One advantage is that it's very viscous so it doesn't all squeeze out. When I was young and stupid (young a long time ago, stupid as recently as yesterday), I would mount hardware using a sealer and then I'd crank away on the fasteners until all the goo squeezed out. Of course, that meant that there was very little goo left to seal the surfaces or to absorb relative motion between them. Then I learned two tricks to solve that problem. One is to use dimes or washers to keep the hardware up off the mounting surface a little bit while the sealer cures. When it does, it forms a gasket. Then you can remove the spacers and tighten the nuts (don't rotate the bolts or machine screws) a little bit. The other trick is to use a countersink to chamfer the mounting holes a little bit. This makes the sealer a bit thicker right around the fastener, sort of like an O-ring around it. Finally, always remember the roofing rule. When your roof leaks, the actual point of ingress is almost always higher than where you spot the water coming in. If your boat has a liner on the overhead, the same could be true there. Check for wet core at any deck mounted items. Small repairs with epoxy will help prevent additional wetting but may help core rot if wet material so not completely removed. Sound advice. My Cal 20 had a TINY deck crack at the corner of the forward hatch. Suddenly there was moisture in the plywood core. On the Cal 20, it's clear-finished down below so I could see it. but the crack was so tiny that it couldn't possibly be coming in there. Well, guess what. And on most boats, you can't see the damage happening so things get much worse. Chris Campbell Oh, P.S. It's OK to be out in challenging conditions. We can't always avoid it, so it's good to have some experience before we get caught out in a blow. But it's important to distinguish between taking reasonable risks and being really foolhardy. Your experienced neighbors seem to feel that you fell on the wrong side of that line. That may be a sign.

Reggie is so right. I've used the butyl rubber from several sources including RV stores. I think the stuff from Sailrite appeared to have the best characteristics, although I do not have years of experience to say what is best. It has a more supple feel. Clean-up of stuff that oozes out is really a snap. Cut and remove. Cut away stuff is reusable. For the T-Tracks, I wrap a little around each screw head and put all screws in the track (as Helen said). Then wrap more (fatter bead) around of each screw on the underside of the track. The butyl holds the screws in place. Then insert screws in holes all at once (whole track). Very clean process. I would do the same with regular caulk. I think it is a mistake to goop up each hole and then insert screws. It pushes the caulk through the hole (instead of sealing the upper surface) and ends up making a mess underneath when you go to put on fender washers, washers, lock washers, and nuts. Just my 2 cents. Take Care Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 5:11 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? there is a difference in quality of butyl tapes. Reggie _____ To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 17:00:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Go to Ebay and you can find a ton of sellers for the Butyl tape. As stated, very cheap. I have bought a couple of rolls and when weather permits I am planning to start re-bedding some deck hardware on Puffin. On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:10 PM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org <mailto:cc… [at] lsnm.org> [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > wrote: On 1/11/2016 3:14 PM, Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com <mailto:jr… [at] triad.rr.com> [Cal_Boats] wrote: As far as adhesive/caulk, here is my "rule of thumbs" 5200 - only if you never want to take apart in the future :) Agreed wholeheartedly. Too many people think this is a miracle goo. It comes back to haunt the next owner. Life caulk and life seal are silicone based caulking. I prefer not to use. Unless they've changed the formula, only Life Seal is silicone-based. Life Caulk is polysulfide rubber. Good stuff. I've used it for years on the toe rail of my other boat, which is varnished mahogany. Varnish adheres well to the Life Caulk and it does not leave an evil residue, as silicones do. I have not used the butyl rubber yet. I will try for my hatches and other deck mounted items. Caulk/adhesive does not last in these areas. On advice of this list, I have used it for bedding hardware on my Cal 20--very satisfied. The stuff is dirt cheap at the RV store, it's easy to use, and it stays flexible. One advantage is that it's very viscous so it doesn't all squeeze out. When I was young and stupid (young a long time ago, stupid as recently as yesterday), I would mount hardware using a sealer and then I'd crank away on the fasteners until all the goo squeezed out. Of course, that meant that there was very little goo left to seal the surfaces or to absorb relative motion between them. Then I learned two tricks to solve that problem. One is to use dimes or washers to keep the hardware up off the mounting surface a little bit while the sealer cures. When it does, it forms a gasket. Then you can remove the spacers and tighten the nuts (don't rotate the bolts or machine screws) a little bit. The other trick is to use a countersink to chamfer the mounting holes a little bit. This makes the sealer a bit thicker right around the fastener, sort of like an O-ring around it. Finally, always remember the roofing rule. When your roof leaks, the actual point of ingress is almost always higher than where you spot the water coming in. If your boat has a liner on the overhead, the same could be true there. Check for wet core at any deck mounted items. Small repairs with epoxy will help prevent additional wetting but may help core rot if wet material so not completely removed. Sound advice. My Cal 20 had a TINY deck crack at the corner of the forward hatch. Suddenly there was moisture in the plywood core. On the Cal 20, it's clear-finished down below so I could see it. but the crack was so tiny that it couldn't possibly be coming in there. Well, guess what. And on most boats, you can't see the damage happening so things get much worse. Chris Campbell Oh, P.S. It's OK to be out in challenging conditions. We can't always avoid it, so it's good to have some experience before we get caught out in a blow. But it's important to distinguish between taking reasonable risks and being really foolhardy. Your experienced neighbors seem to feel that you fell on the wrong side of that line. That may be a sign.

With regards to sealants,WM doesn't any longer sell what was for years recommended, butyl (a synthetic rubber) caulk.I was also freaked out by their demand for $20 for a tube. I ultimately used something I had in my truck, a tube of Henry's-not sure of the number, 286? white elastomeric roofing sealant/cement, which is elastic, water clean-up-alble, for my new to me winches...available at major hardware stores. Of course, I wouldn't use this for underwater applications.It would probably work for a toe rail, but maybe Silicone II caulk would work, since it is held in place with mechanical fasteners. Or, maybe acrylic silicone modified roof to flashing caulk. 5200 hardens up and is not appropriate unless you want something tied in permanently, like hull halves. So, that leaves, what, 3M-4200? What does the WM catalog say? You want something that will allow you to remove and rebed in the future. I used butyl and haven't touched my thru hulls in 19 years. Of course, I haven't hauled my boat either, my diver insisted that if you clean the hull twice a month during the season that's adequate to keep the bottom clean. I still have an un-opened can of WM highest content red copper epoxy bottom paint for when I do, only cost me 85 bucks, but at 24% credit card interest for the last 12 years, was it such a good deal? What is it now, >$300?Shpriz On Monday, January 11, 2016 7:04 PM, "'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Reggie is so right. I’ve used the butyl rubber from several sources including RV stores. I think the stuff from Sailrite appeared to have the best characteristics, although I do not have years of experience to say what is best. It has a more supple feel. Clean-up of stuff that oozes out is really a snap. Cut and remove. Cut away stuff is reusable. For the T-Tracks, I wrap a little around each screw head and put all screws in the track (as Helen said). Then wrap more (fatter bead) around of each screw on the underside of the track. The butyl holds the screws in place. Then insert screws in holes all at once (whole track). Very clean process. I would do the same with regular caulk. I think it is a mistake to goop up each hole and then insert screws. It pushes the caulk through the hole (instead of sealing the upper surface) and ends up making a mess underneath when you go to put on fender washers, washers, lock washers, and nuts. Just my 2 cents. Take CareCharlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 5:11 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? there is a difference in quality of butyl tapes.ReggieTo: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 17:00:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Go to Ebay and you can find a ton of sellers for the Butyl tape. As stated, very cheap. I have bought a couple of rolls and when weather permits I am planning to start re-bedding some deck hardware on Puffin. On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:10 PM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: On 1/11/2016 3:14 PM, Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: As far as adhesive/caulk, here is my "rule of thumbs" 5200 - only if you never want to take apart in the future :) Agreed wholeheartedly. Too many people think this is a miracle goo. It comes back to haunt the next owner. Life caulk and life seal are silicone based caulking. I prefer not to use. Unless they've changed the formula, only Life Seal is silicone-based. Life Caulk is polysulfide rubber. Good stuff. I've used it for years on the toe rail of my other boat, which is varnished mahogany. Varnish adheres well to the Life Caulk and it does not leave an evil residue, as silicones do. I have not used the butyl rubber yet. I will try for my hatches and other deck mounted items. Caulk/adhesive does not last in these areas. On advice of this list, I have used it for bedding hardware on my Cal 20--very satisfied. The stuff is dirt cheap at the RV store, it's easy to use, and it stays flexible. One advantage is that it's very viscous so it doesn't all squeeze out. When I was young and stupid (young a long time ago, stupid as recently as yesterday), I would mount hardware using a sealer and then I'd crank away on the fasteners until all the goo squeezed out. Of course, that meant that there was very little goo left to seal the surfaces or to absorb relative motion between them. Then I learned two tricks to solve that problem. One is to use dimes or washers to keep the hardware up off the mounting surface a little bit while the sealer cures. When it does, it forms a gasket. Then you can remove the spacers and tighten the nuts (don't rotate the bolts or machine screws) a little bit. The other trick is to use a countersink to chamfer the mounting holes a little bit. This makes the sealer a bit thicker right around the fastener, sort of like an O-ring around it. Finally, always remember the roofing rule. When your roof leaks, the actual point of ingress is almost always higher than where you spot the water coming in. If your boat has a liner on the overhead, the same could be true there. Check for wet core at any deck mounted items. Small repairs with epoxy will help prevent additional wetting but may help core rot if wet material so not completely removed. Sound advice. My Cal 20 had a TINY deck crack at the corner of the forward hatch. Suddenly there was moisture in the plywood core. On the Cal 20, it's clear-finished down below so I could see it. but the crack was so tiny that it couldn't possibly be coming in there. Well, guess what. And on most boats, you can't see the damage happening so things get much worse. Chris Campbell Oh, P.S. It's OK to be out in challenging conditions. We can't always avoid it, so it's good to have some experience before we get caught out in a blow. But it's important to distinguish between taking reasonable risks and being really foolhardy. Your experienced neighbors seem to feel that you fell on the wrong side of that line. That may be a sign.

With regards toWest Marine not selling Butyl caulk (polysulfide) that was my experience at the Marina del Rey store. Re: removing silicone residue, I asked Google and one Marine chat site said that mineral spirits/turpentine plus a scrubbing pad will do it from a porous surface, OR if removing from fiberglas, use rubbing alcohol (isopropyl alchohol) and a cloth. Just guessing, but possibly acetone will work, since it also dissolves fiberglas! One site mentioned using Sikaflex caulk (that's urethane rubber) to seal between plexiglas lites and fiberglas. You can get urethane caulk at, for example, Home Depot or any good hardware store.Shpritz. If there's a clear version of that, I'll try that on my new portlights, meanwhile, I'm sporting death with my old "marblized" ones, one of which just cracked completely in half and is covered with a piece of clear duct tape. classy, huh?Shpritz Cal 24-1, Queen Mother of All Cals. On Monday, January 11, 2016 10:08 PM, "Gerald Sobel so… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: With regards to sealants,WM doesn't any longer sell what was for years recommended, butyl (a synthetic rubber) caulk.I was also freaked out by their demand for $20 for a tube. I ultimately used something I had in my truck, a tube of Henry's-not sure of the number, 286? white elastomeric roofing sealant/cement, which is elastic, water clean-up-alble, for my new to me winches...available at major hardware stores. Of course, I wouldn't use this for underwater applications.It would probably work for a toe rail, but maybe Silicone II caulk would work, since it is held in place with mechanical fasteners. Or, maybe acrylic silicone modified roof to flashing caulk. 5200 hardens up and is not appropriate unless you want something tied in permanently, like hull halves. So, that leaves, what, 3M-4200? What does the WM catalog say? You want something that will allow you to remove and rebed in the future. I used butyl and haven't touched my thru hulls in 19 years. Of course, I haven't hauled my boat either, my diver insisted that if you clean the hull twice a month during the season that's adequate to keep the bottom clean. I still have an un-opened can of WM highest content red copper epoxy bottom paint for when I do, only cost me 85 bucks, but at 24% credit card interest for the last 12 years, was it such a good deal? What is it now, >$300?Shpriz On Monday, January 11, 2016 7:04 PM, "'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Reggie is so right. I’ve used the butyl rubber from several sources including RV stores. I think the stuff from Sailrite appeared to have the best characteristics, although I do not have years of experience to say what is best. It has a more supple feel. Clean-up of stuff that oozes out is really a snap. Cut and remove. Cut away stuff is reusable. For the T-Tracks, I wrap a little around each screw head and put all screws in the track (as Helen said). Then wrap more (fatter bead) around of each screw on the underside of the track. The butyl holds the screws in place. Then insert screws in holes all at once (whole track). Very clean process. I would do the same with regular caulk. I think it is a mistake to goop up each hole and then insert screws. It pushes the caulk through the hole (instead of sealing the upper surface) and ends up making a mess underneath when you go to put on fender washers, washers, lock washers, and nuts. Just my 2 cents. Take CareCharlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 5:11 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? there is a difference in quality of butyl tapes.ReggieTo: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 17:00:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Go to Ebay and you can find a ton of sellers for the Butyl tape. As stated, very cheap. I have bought a couple of rolls and when weather permits I am planning to start re-bedding some deck hardware on Puffin. On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:10 PM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: On 1/11/2016 3:14 PM, Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: As far as adhesive/caulk, here is my "rule of thumbs" 5200 - only if you never want to take apart in the future :) Agreed wholeheartedly. Too many people think this is a miracle goo. It comes back to haunt the next owner. Life caulk and life seal are silicone based caulking. I prefer not to use. Unless they've changed the formula, only Life Seal is silicone-based. Life Caulk is polysulfide rubber. Good stuff. I've used it for years on the toe rail of my other boat, which is varnished mahogany. Varnish adheres well to the Life Caulk and it does not leave an evil residue, as silicones do. I have not used the butyl rubber yet. I will try for my hatches and other deck mounted items. Caulk/adhesive does not last in these areas. On advice of this list, I have used it for bedding hardware on my Cal 20--very satisfied. The stuff is dirt cheap at the RV store, it's easy to use, and it stays flexible. One advantage is that it's very viscous so it doesn't all squeeze out. When I was young and stupid (young a long time ago, stupid as recently as yesterday), I would mount hardware using a sealer and then I'd crank away on the fasteners until all the goo squeezed out. Of course, that meant that there was very little goo left to seal the surfaces or to absorb relative motion between them. Then I learned two tricks to solve that problem. One is to use dimes or washers to keep the hardware up off the mounting surface a little bit while the sealer cures. When it does, it forms a gasket. Then you can remove the spacers and tighten the nuts (don't rotate the bolts or machine screws) a little bit. The other trick is to use a countersink to chamfer the mounting holes a little bit. This makes the sealer a bit thicker right around the fastener, sort of like an O-ring around it. Finally, always remember the roofing rule. When your roof leaks, the actual point of ingress is almost always higher than where you spot the water coming in. If your boat has a liner on the overhead, the same could be true there. Check for wet core at any deck mounted items. Small repairs with epoxy will help prevent additional wetting but may help core rot if wet material so not completely removed. Sound advice. My Cal 20 had a TINY deck crack at the corner of the forward hatch. Suddenly there was moisture in the plywood core. On the Cal 20, it's clear-finished down below so I could see it. but the crack was so tiny that it couldn't possibly be coming in there. Well, guess what. And on most boats, you can't see the damage happening so things get much worse. Chris Campbell Oh, P.S. It's OK to be out in challenging conditions. We can't always avoid it, so it's good to have some experience before we get caught out in a blow. But it's important to distinguish between taking reasonable risks and being really foolhardy. Your experienced neighbors seem to feel that you fell on the wrong side of that line. That may be a sign.

As far as rebedding, butyl tape is the best I have used. The best source for marine use is Compass Marine and he has a great blog entry on how do it it right: Re-Bedding Deck Hardware With Bed-It Butyl Tape by Compass Marine How To http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware Re-Bedding Deck Hardware With Bed-It Butyl Tape by... http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware So why on earth do I countersink or chamfer the deck side of the skins? #1 It does a lot to prevent gelcoat crazing. View on www.pbase.com http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware Preview by Yahoo You can buy it off this site as well

On 1/12/2016 8:07 AM, ri… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > As far as rebedding, butyl tape is the best I have used. The best > source for marine use is Compass Marine and he has a great blog entry > on how do it it right: I had forgotten about that nice instruction. Everybody should pay careful attention to the parts about the "devil's glue," 3M 5200, and about the other great evil, silicone. The former owner of my boat had used silicone to seal the aft mooring cleats. It was done at least 20 years ago, probably more. You can still see the silicone residue in the gelcoat. The butyl tape tutorial talks about how the only real solution is mechanical removal: wet sanding. Both 5200 and silicone sealer have their places. Problem is, they tend to be viewed as miracle goos, and people slap them everywhere (often without much success). My other boat has through-deck chainplates with a deck trim plate around them, all stainless. I have used a little bead of clear silicone at the junction of the chainplate and the trim plate. It seems to be durable and it's almost invisible. That's about the only use on my boats. Chris Campbell > <http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware>

Can't seem to get any love for Eternabond Tape in the marine world. I have no interest in the company or product, just know that for what I've used it for, it is far superior to butyl. Many people bitch about the stickyness and cleanup issues (myself included) but in retrospect, the pain in the butt afterwards to clean up is nothing compared to Never Ever having to Ever do it again! Yes, I'm that confident after using it in actual real-life boating, RV, and home repairs. Once you get this stuff stuck to properly prepared surfaces, it will NEVER come unstuck on its own. If it did, you failed in prep. (de-grease your screws. People forget this often. It will mess up any type of sealant) It doesn't harden so will flex in joints and not lose its seal. Butyl is old-tech. The RV industry has been using it to install leaky RV windows and vents for decades. It's baffling to me that the marine industry has newly "discovered" a sealing product that the RV industry is now moving away from. Some RV's are coming from the factory with Eternabond now and several years ago I saw it as a factory option on new ones to swap your membrane roof for a single sheet of Eternabond. When I first started using it (2006) they were guaranteeing 15 year life. Now (depending on conditions) they are claiming 18-35 years. Nothing I've used it on has ever leaked and I lived in Ketchikan, AK where they get a minimum of 13 Feet (yes, feet) of rain every year. You can get it from RV places but the best sources are industrial roofing suppliers. Full size rolls and much better pricing. Their website has links to retailers and lots of info on the different types of tape. From: "ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? On 1/12/2016 8:07 AM, ri… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: As far as rebedding, butyl tape is the best I have used. The best source for marine use is Compass Marine and he has a great blog entry on how do it it right: I had forgotten about that nice instruction. Everybody should pay careful attention to the parts about the "devil's glue," 3M 5200, and about the other great evil, silicone. The former owner of my boat had used silicone to seal the aft mooring cleats. It was done at least 20 years ago, probably more. You can still see the silicone residue in the gelcoat. The butyl tape tutorial talks about how the only real solution is mechanical removal: wet sanding. Both 5200 and silicone sealer have their places. Problem is, they tend to be viewed as miracle goos, and people slap them everywhere (often without much success). My other boat has through-deck chainplates with a deck trim plate around them, all stainless. I have used a little bead of clear silicone at the junction of the chainplate and the trim plate. It seems to be durable and it's almost invisible. That's about the only use on my boats. Chris Campbell

Hi Kris,Haven't used it yet but I plan to use it to re-bed my stanchions and chain plate caps Mike RobinsonS/V Eleanor May(916) 705-3200 our blog:http://www.sailblogs.com/member/eleanormay/ To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 18:49:16 +0000 Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? Can't seem to get any love for Eternabond Tape in the marine world. I have no interest in the company or product, just know that for what I've used it for, it is far superior to butyl. Many people bitch about the stickyness and cleanup issues (myself included) but in retrospect, the pain in the butt afterwards to clean up is nothing compared to Never Ever having to Ever do it again! Yes, I'm that confident after using it in actual real-life boating, RV, and home repairs. Once you get this stuff stuck to properly prepared surfaces, it will NEVER come unstuck on its own. If it did, you failed in prep. (de-grease your screws. People forget this often. It will mess up any type of sealant) It doesn't harden so will flex in joints and not lose its seal. Butyl is old-tech. The RV industry has been using it to install leaky RV windows and vents for decades. It's baffling to me that the marine industry has newly "discovered" a sealing product that the RV industry is now moving away from. Some RV's are coming from the factory with Eternabond now and several years ago I saw it as a factory option on new ones to swap your membrane roof for a single sheet of Eternabond. When I first started using it (2006) they were guaranteeing 15 year life. Now (depending on conditions) they are claiming 18-35 years. Nothing I've used it on has ever leaked and I lived in Ketchikan, AK where they get a minimum of 13 Feet (yes, feet) of rain every year. You can get it from RV places but the best sources are industrial roofing suppliers. Full size rolls and much better pricing. Their website has links to retailers and lots of info on the different types of tape. From: "ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Sealant? Adhesive? Re-bed? On 1/12/2016 8:07 AM, ri… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: As far as rebedding, butyl tape is the best I have used. The best source for marine use is Compass Marine and he has a great blog entry on how do it it right: I had forgotten about that nice instruction. Everybody should pay careful attention to the parts about the "devil's glue," 3M 5200, and about the other great evil, silicone. The former owner of my boat had used silicone to seal the aft mooring cleats. It was done at least 20 years ago, probably more. You can still see the silicone residue in the gelcoat. The butyl tape tutorial talks about how the only real solution is mechanical removal: wet sanding. Both 5200 and silicone sealer have their places. Problem is, they tend to be viewed as miracle goos, and people slap them everywhere (often without much success). My other boat has through-deck chainplates with a deck trim plate around them, all stainless. I have used a little bead of clear silicone at the junction of the chainplate and the trim plate. It seems to be durable and it's almost invisible. That's about the only use on my boats. Chris Campbell

On 1/12/2016 1:49 PM, Kris Jensen cr… [at] att.net [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > Can't seem to get any love for Eternabond Tape in the marine world. I > have no interest in the company or product, just know that for what > I've used it for, it is far superior to butyl. Many people bitch > about the stickyness and cleanup issues (myself included) but in > retrospect, the pain in the butt afterwards to clean up is nothing > compared to Never Ever having to Ever do it again! Yes, I'm that > confident after using it in actual real-life boating, RV, and home > repairs. > Once you get this stuff stuck to properly prepared surfaces, it will > NEVER come unstuck on its own. If it did, you failed in prep. > (de-grease your screws. People forget this often. It will mess up any > type of sealant) It doesn't harden so will flex in joints and not > lose its seal. Butyl is old-tech. The RV industry has been using it > to install leaky RV windows and vents for decades. It's baffling to > me that the marine industry has newly "discovered" a sealing product > that the RV industry is now moving away from. Some RV's are coming > from the factory with Eternabond now and several years ago I saw it as > a factory option on new ones to swap your membrane roof for a single > sheet of Eternabond. When I first started using it (2006) they were > guaranteeing 15 year life. Now (depending on conditions) they are > claiming 18-35 years. Nothing I've used it on has ever leaked and I > lived in Ketchikan, AK where they get a minimum of 13 Feet (yes, feet) > of rain every year. > > You can get it from RV places but the best sources are industrial > roofing suppliers. Full size rolls and much better pricing. Their > website has links to retailers and lots of info on the different types > of tape. Sounds like an interesting product. One advantage of butyl rubber is that sometimes we WANT to be able to remove things easily later. One problem with any material is improper installation. If you have a worker who's having a bad day, or whose employer exalts speed over precision, you can have bad performance of the material. I've often redone factory-installed things where you could see why the seal had failed--it was sloppily installed. Attention to detail matters. Chris Campbell >