Cal 33-2 ocean sailing

I sail my Cal 33-2 sailboat in the Hampton Va. area and have just signed up to complete the DelMarVa rally this upcoming June. The DelMarVa is a circumnavigation of the DelMarVa peninsula, which is a 170 mile long peninsula that is occupies most of Delaware, portions of Maryland and Virginia. Even though I have traveled the lower Chesapeake Bay with this boat, and I am very comfortable with this type of sailing, I am wondering if anyone has any experience with Cal 33-2 in ocean sailing. If so, I am looking for any information, and pearls of wisdom that you can impart. Thanks, Jonathan Romero S/V Tempo 1987 Cal 33-2

Wow! I lived in Vienna, VA for many years prior to moving here last year. I knew there was Annapolis and all the Bay activity and many people sail on the Potomac. One of my sons went to W-M and the other is at CNU, so I was near the water a bit but it did not occur to me that there would be such a run. Shame on me. Looking at a map now, yes a map, not a chart : ) I realize what a challenge that can be! And it looks like fun! Good luck!! ..tom From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 12:55 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33-2 ocean sailing I sail my Cal 33-2 sailboat in the Hampton Va. area and have just signed up to complete the DelMarVa rally this upcoming June. The DelMarVa is a circumnavigation of the DelMarVa peninsula, which is a 170 mile long peninsula that is occupies most of Delaware, portions of Maryland and Virginia. Even though I have traveled the lower Chesapeake Bay with this boat, and I am very comfortable with this type of sailing, I am wondering if anyone has any experience with Cal 33-2 in ocean sailing. If so, I am looking for any information, and pearls of wisdom that you can impart. Thanks, Jonathan Romero S/V Tempo 1987 Cal 33-2 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Make sure your insurance covers you when in the ocean. I own a 33-2 (we sail the middle Bay area) and I know I am not insured for ocean travel. Also, I guess you have radar? On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 3:55 AM, ro… [at] cox.net [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > I sail my Cal 33-2 sailboat in the Hampton Va. area and have just signed > up to complete the DelMarVa rally this upcoming June. The DelMarVa is a > circumnavigation of the DelMarVa peninsula, which is a 170 mile long > peninsula that is occupies most of Delaware, portions of Maryland and > Virginia. > > > Even though I have traveled the lower Chesapeake Bay with this boat, and I > am very comfortable with this type of sailing, I am wondering if anyone > has any experience with Cal 33-2 in ocean sailing. > > > If so, I am looking for any information, and pearls of wisdom that you can > impart. > > > Thanks, > > > Jonathan Romero > > S/V Tempo > > 1987 Cal 33-2 > > > >

No radar, we have 6 on the boat and will have 2 folks on watch for the entire time. My insurance allows for a rider to be attached to cover the ocean part of our trip. Jonathan S/V Tempo

Extra handheld vhf, gps, batteries, solar charger, plenty of water, chocolate bars, dried fruit, cheese type snacks/crackers, jerky, in case it's too rough to cook. Lee cloths to keep sleepers in bunks. trash bags. PFDs of course, jack line set up. Hot packs for cold hands. Short watches. Helen Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 10:32 PM, ro… [at] cox.net [Cal_Boats]<Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: No radar, we have 6 on the boat and will have 2 folks on watch for the entire time. My insurance allows for a rider to be attached to cover the ocean part of our trip. JonathanS/V Tempo

I would suggest AIS, maybe receive only. It is relatively inexpensive, uses your VHF antenna and lets you know where commercial vessels are located relative to your boat's position. I am not familiar with your weather patterns, having only enjoyed one summer in the Chesapeake, but in SoCal due to fog, I considered radar essential. Now that I have been in the Gulf of Mexico, I also consider it essential. Several times we have saved our sails, by detecting a squall line on radar while crossing from Pensacola to the Keys. One year in the Bahamas, crossing the "Tongue of the Ocean" east of Andros we spotted four water spouts at one time. Needless to say we drastically changed course. While covering a small area, winds in water spouts can exceed 200 knots. November 1985 we crossed the Atlantic, Canary Islands to Barbados, about 1,700 miles with friends in their Force 50, "Taiwan Turkey". After the first days out we did not see any other boats until dead center of the Atlantic, we spotted another boat on radar that would have been on a collision course. We always had a person on watch. Enjoy! I wish we were able to sail away again, but health and age related problems do not allow.Since our Cal Cruising 46 is tied to our dock about 50 yards behind our house, we are aboard her each day. I have finally admitted, we cannot sail away again, so we are preparing her for a new owner. You may remember she was built by Jensen Marine for the owner, Jack Jensen who sailed her around the world in the late 70's early 80's. Then Bobbie and I bought her from the estate in 1982, raced and cruised in SoCal, then retired and sailed away in May 1988, but that is another story. Tom & Bobbie Vandiver, Cal Cruising 46, Hull #3, SATORI, Bayou Chico, FL From: "Helen Horn he… [at] sbcglobal.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 1:36 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33-2 ocean sailing Extra handheld vhf, gps, batteries, solar charger, plenty of water, chocolate bars, dried fruit, cheese type snacks/crackers, jerky, in case it's too rough to cook. Lee cloths to keep sleepers in bunks. trash bags. PFDs of course, jack line set up. Hot packs for cold hands. Short watches. Helen Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android No radar, we have 6 on the boat and will have 2 folks on watch for the entire time. My insurance allows for a rider to be attached to cover the ocean part of our trip. JonathanS/V Tempo

The Standard Horizon VHF units with an integrated AIS receiver are handy units. Our boat has the GX2150 installed, and I tied the AIS feed into the chartplotter. It's handy, but if forced to pick between the AIS and radar, I would pick radar every time hands down. > On Jan 14, 2016, at 1:40 AM, Tom Vandiver bs… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > I would suggest AIS, maybe receive only. It is relatively inexpensive, uses your VHF antenna and lets you know where commercial vessels are located relative to your boat's position. > > I am not familiar with your weather patterns, having only enjoyed one summer in the Chesapeake, but in SoCal due to fog, I considered radar essential. Now that I have been in the Gulf of Mexico, I also consider it essential. Several times we have saved our sails, by detecting a squall line on radar while crossing from Pensacola to the Keys. > > One year in the Bahamas, crossing the "Tongue of the Ocean" east of Andros we spotted four water spouts at one time. Needless to say we drastically changed course. While covering a small area, winds in water spouts can exceed 200 knots. > > November 1985 we crossed the Atlantic, Canary Islands to Barbados, about 1,700 miles with friends in their Force 50, "Taiwan Turkey". After the first days out we did not see any other boats until dead center of the Atlantic, we spotted another boat on radar that would have been on a collision course. We always had a person on watch. > > Enjoy! I wish we were able to sail away again, but health and age related problems do not allow. > Since our Cal Cruising 46 is tied to our dock about 50 yards behind our house, we are aboard her each day. I have finally admitted, we cannot sail away again, so we are preparing her for a new owner. You may remember she was built by Jensen Marine for the owner, Jack Jensen who sailed her around the world in the late 70's early 80's. Then Bobbie and I bought her from the estate in 1982, raced and cruised in SoCal, then retired and sailed away in May 1988, but that is another story. > > Tom & Bobbie Vandiver, Cal Cruising 46, Hull #3, SATORI, Bayou Chico, FL > > > > From: "Helen Horn he… [at] sbcglobal.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 1:36 AM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33-2 ocean sailing > > > Extra handheld vhf, gps, batteries, solar charger, plenty of water, chocolate bars, dried fruit, cheese type snacks/crackers, jerky, in case it's too rough to cook. Lee cloths to keep sleepers in bunks. trash bags. PFDs of course, jack line set up. Hot packs for cold hands. Short watches. Helen > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > No radar, we have 6 on the boat and will have 2 folks on watch for the entire time. > > My insurance allows for a rider to be attached to cover the ocean part of our trip. > > Jonathan > S/V Tempo > > >

On 1/14/2016 4:40 AM, Tom Vandiver bs… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > I would suggest AIS, maybe receive only. It is relatively inexpensive, > uses your VHF antenna and lets you know where commercial vessels are > located relative to your boat's position. > > I am not familiar with your weather patterns, having only enjoyed one > summer in the Chesapeake, but in SoCal due to fog, I considered radar > essential. Now that I have been in the Gulf of Mexico, I also consider > it essential. Several times we have saved our sails, by detecting a > squall line on radar while crossing from Pensacola to the Keys. On the local schooner we've done the usual dodging of thunderstorms by viewing their pattern on radar. But my favorite time was one night when we needed to enter and anchor in a strange, small unlighted harbor in the dark, without a chartplotter, just the paper chart. One crew member was on the depth sounder, one was on the GPS, and I was on the radar. We dropped anchor and in the morning found that we were exactly where the captain had chosen to be on the chart. And nothing is more comforting than radar in a fog. On my last trip on the schooner it was my watch in the pea soup. We could not see anything, but we were crossing shipping lanes and could hear the fog signals. I must have hopped up and down the ladder 25 times to verify that were weren't colliding. I sometimes get snarky about over-reliance on electronics but they can often add a lot of safety margin. Chris Campbell

I would have expected you would have a received a response from Don Dutton, a long standing member of this list. He made an epic journey from Florida to Galveston at one point in his Cal 33. He is currently in Washington State, but has sailed his Cal on both coast at some point. Maybe he will respond or provide a tale of his journey. I remember he had lots of pointers, heavy weather and storm tactics to relay Hey Don!!! John Raxter Cal 33 Oriental NC > On Jan 14, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Alexander Donoghue al… [at] icloud.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > The Standard Horizon VHF units with an integrated AIS receiver are handy units. Our boat has the GX2150 installed, and I tied the AIS feed into the chartplotter. It's handy, but if forced to pick between the AIS and radar, I would pick radar every time hands down. > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Jan 14, 2016, at 1:40 AM, Tom Vandiver bs… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> >> I would suggest AIS, maybe receive only. It is relatively inexpensive, uses your VHF antenna and lets you know where commercial vessels are located relative to your boat's position. >> >> I am not familiar with your weather patterns, having only enjoyed one summer in the Chesapeake, but in SoCal due to fog, I considered radar essential. Now that I have been in the Gulf of Mexico, I also consider it essential. Several times we have saved our sails, by detecting a squall line on radar while crossing from Pensacola to the Keys. >> >> One year in the Bahamas, crossing the "Tongue of the Ocean" east of Andros we spotted four water spouts at one time. Needless to say we drastically changed course. While covering a small area, winds in water spouts can exceed 200 knots. >> >> November 1985 we crossed the Atlantic, Canary Islands to Barbados, about 1,700 miles with friends in their Force 50, "Taiwan Turkey". After the first days out we did not see any other boats until dead center of the Atlantic, we spotted another boat on radar that would have been on a collision course. We always had a person on watch. >> >> Enjoy! I wish we were able to sail away again, but health and age related problems do not allow. >> Since our Cal Cruising 46 is tied to our dock about 50 yards behind our house, we are aboard her each day. I have finally admitted, we cannot sail away again, so we are preparing her for a new owner. You may remember she was built by Jensen Marine for the owner, Jack Jensen who sailed her around the world in the late 70's early 80's. Then Bobbie and I bought her from the estate in 1982, raced and cruised in SoCal, then retired and sailed away in May 1988, but that is another story. >> >> Tom & Bobbie Vandiver, Cal Cruising 46, Hull #3, SATORI, Bayou Chico, FL >> >> >> >> From: "Helen Horn he… [at] sbcglobal.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> To: "Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 1:36 AM >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33-2 ocean sailing >> >> >> Extra handheld vhf, gps, batteries, solar charger, plenty of water, chocolate bars, dried fruit, cheese type snacks/crackers, jerky, in case it's too rough to cook. Lee cloths to keep sleepers in bunks. trash bags. PFDs of course, jack line set up. Hot packs for cold hands. Short watches. Helen >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android >> >> >> No radar, we have 6 on the boat and will have 2 folks on watch for the entire time. >> >> My insurance allows for a rider to be attached to cover the ocean part of our trip. >> >> Jonathan >> S/V Tempo > >

As they say " there is an app for that" On my I phone, SCAIS is the free app, registration is required and a test boat is shown. You can sign in and pay for a service for additional features. Free service will show boats and GPS coordinates of AIS signals on a chart as you zoom in. Pretty cool to play with anyway. John Raxter Cal 33 Oriental NC > On Jan 14, 2016, at 2:54 PM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > >> On 1/14/2016 4:40 AM, Tom Vandiver bs… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: >> I would suggest AIS, maybe receive only. It is relatively inexpensive, uses your VHF antenna and lets you know where commercial vessels are located relative to your boat's position. >> >> I am not familiar with your weather patterns, having only enjoyed one summer in the Chesapeake, but in SoCal due to fog, I considered radar essential. Now that I have been in the Gulf of Mexico, I also consider it essential. Several times we have saved our sails, by detecting a squall line on radar while crossing from Pensacola to the Keys. > > On the local schooner we've done the usual dodging of thunderstorms by viewing their pattern on radar. But my favorite time was one night when we needed to enter and anchor in a strange, small unlighted harbor in the dark, without a chartplotter, just the paper chart. One crew member was on the depth sounder, one was on the GPS, and I was on the radar. We dropped anchor and in the morning found that we were exactly where the captain had chosen to be on the chart. And nothing is more comforting than radar in a fog. On my last trip on the schooner it was my watch in the pea soup. We could not see anything, but we were crossing shipping lanes and could hear the fog signals. I must have hopped up and down the ladder 25 times to verify that were weren't colliding. I sometimes get snarky about over-reliance on electronics but they can often add a lot of safety margin. > > Chris Campbell > > > >

I just know that conditions can change so quickly and especially at night is the worst. Radar would add some peace of mind to a situation. But many have sailed without it and been fine. But just having a chart plotter is fantastic. I remember the days of not having them and using a Luran. Last year heading in to Onancock there were two sailboats to my starboard and to me they were way off course. I like to let people be, but felt they needed a warning. I radioed "hey to the two sailboats that think you are heading in to Onancock, you're heading in to shallow water and that is not the mouth of the river." Before anyone even responded both boats were doing 180's. Then someone thanked me and said there chart plotters were on the fritz. The shore just all looks the same. On Thursday, January 14, 2016, Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > As they say " there is an app for that" > > > On my I phone, SCAIS is the free app, registration is required and a test > boat is shown. You can sign in and pay for a service for additional > features. Free service will show boats and GPS coordinates of AIS signals > on a chart as you zoom in. Pretty cool to play with anyway. > > > > John Raxter > Cal 33 > Oriental NC > > On Jan 14, 2016, at 2:54 PM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cc… [at] lsnm.org');> [Cal_Boats] < > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com');>> wrote: > > > > > > On 1/14/2016 4:40 AM, Tom Vandiver bs… [at] yahoo.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bs… [at] yahoo.com');> [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > I would suggest AIS, maybe receive only. It is relatively inexpensive, > uses your VHF antenna and lets you know where commercial vessels are > located relative to your boat's position. > > I am not familiar with your weather patterns, having only enjoyed one > summer in the Chesapeake, but in SoCal due to fog, I considered radar > essential. Now that I have been in the Gulf of Mexico, I also consider it > essential. Several times we have saved our sails, by detecting a squall > line on radar while crossing from Pensacola to the Keys. > > > On the local schooner we've done the usual dodging of thunderstorms by > viewing their pattern on radar. But my favorite time was one night when we > needed to enter and anchor in a strange, small unlighted harbor in the > dark, without a chartplotter, just the paper chart. One crew member was on > the depth sounder, one was on the GPS, and I was on the radar. We dropped > anchor and in the morning found that we were exactly where the captain had > chosen to be on the chart. And nothing is more comforting than radar in > a fog. On my last trip on the schooner it was my watch in the pea soup. > We could not see anything, but we were crossing shipping lanes and could > hear the fog signals. I must have hopped up and down the ladder 25 times > to verify that were weren't colliding. I sometimes get snarky about > over-reliance on electronics but they can often add a lot of safety margin. > > Chris Campbell > > > > >

My two cents: a couple of years ago I replaced my 10+ year old Standard Horizon with a Standard Horizon with AIS (receiving only), and I quickly saw that it is worth its weight in gold. Sure, it will not help you find the entrance in the fog, or spot Destruction Island off the central coast of Washington, but its alarm will alert you to a nearby vessel broadcasting AIS, telling you its name, position (on both the VHS screen and chart plotter), speed, etc. Just knowing its name makes it so much easier to hail and get a response. And, because it works off of VHF, you can see the vessels before they come around the corner or otherwise hidden from eyeball view. Yes, radar is great and useful for many things, and a broadcasting AIS is nice at times, but if nothing else, and if you are on a budget like me, the VHF/AIS combo greatly and cheaply improves safety. P. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:41 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33-2 ocean sailing & Tom Story I just know that conditions can change so quickly and especially at night is the worst. Radar would add some peace of mind to a situation. But many have sailed without it and been fine. But just having a chart plotter is fantastic. I remember the days of not having them and using a Luran. Last year heading in to Onancock there were two sailboats to my starboard and to me they were way off course. I like to let people be, but felt they needed a warning. I radioed "hey to the two sailboats that think you are heading in to Onancock, you're heading in to shallow water and that is not the mouth of the river." Before anyone even responded both boats were doing 180's. Then someone thanked me and said there chart plotters were on the fritz. The shore just all looks the same. On Thursday, January 14, 2016, Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com<mailto:jr… [at] triad.rr.com> [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> wrote: As they say " there is an app for that" On my I phone, SCAIS is the free app, registration is required and a test boat is shown. You can sign in and pay for a service for additional features. Free service will show boats and GPS coordinates of AIS signals on a chart as you zoom in. Pretty cool to play with anyway. John Raxter Cal 33 Oriental NC On Jan 14, 2016, at 2:54 PM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: On 1/14/2016 4:40 AM, Tom Vandiver bs… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: I would suggest AIS, maybe receive only. It is relatively inexpensive, uses your VHF antenna and lets you know where commercial vessels are located relative to your boat's position. I am not familiar with your weather patterns, having only enjoyed one summer in the Chesapeake, but in SoCal due to fog, I considered radar essential. Now that I have been in the Gulf of Mexico, I also consider it essential. Several times we have saved our sails, by detecting a squall line on radar while crossing from Pensacola to the Keys. On the local schooner we've done the usual dodging of thunderstorms by viewing their pattern on radar. But my favorite time was one night when we needed to enter and anchor in a strange, small unlighted harbor in the dark, without a chartplotter, just the paper chart. One crew member was on the depth sounder, one was on the GPS, and I was on the radar. We dropped anchor and in the morning found that we were exactly where the captain had chosen to be on the chart. And nothing is more comforting than radar in a fog. On my last trip on the schooner it was my watch in the pea soup. We could not see anything, but we were crossing shipping lanes and could hear the fog signals. I must have hopped up and down the ladder 25 times to verify that were weren't colliding. I sometimes get snarky about over-reliance on electronics but they can often add a lot of safety margin. Chris Campbell

Newman, The story you related below reinforces my concern with modern GPS and Chart plotters. Boaters have a tendency to rely on the "easy" part of "cheap and easy". I know any Nav system is not "cheap". I think boaters rely too much on the electronic navigation, and forget paper charts and the necessity of understanding daymarks and bouys, or verifying their route on a proper chart. Even the pros get into trouble with this. Remember the grounding of one of the Volvo Ocean racers (Alvimedica?) last year in the Indian gulf. I recall the "fault" was due to not zooming in on their course, to see the shoals, or referencing their paper charts that would have them avoid the area. Ymmv John Raxter Cal 33 Oriental NC > On Jan 14, 2016, at 3:40 PM, NEWMAN d2… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > I just know that conditions can change so quickly and especially at night is the worst. Radar would add some peace of mind to a situation. But many have sailed without it and been fine. But just having a chart plotter is fantastic. I remember the days of not having them and using a Luran. > > Last year heading in to Onancock there were two sailboats to my starboard and to me they were way off course. I like to let people be, but felt they needed a warning. I radioed "hey to the two sailboats that think you are heading in to Onancock, you're heading in to shallow water and that is not the mouth of the river." Before anyone even responded both boats were doing 180's. Then someone thanked me and said there chart plotters were on the fritz. The shore just all looks the same. > >> On Thursday, January 14, 2016, Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> As they say " there is an app for that" >> >> >> On my I phone, SCAIS is the free app, registration is required and a test boat is shown. You can sign in and pay for a service for additional features. Free service will show boats and GPS coordinates of AIS signals on a chart as you zoom in. Pretty cool to play with anyway. >> >> >> >> John Raxter >> Cal 33 >> Oriental NC >> >>> On Jan 14, 2016, at 2:54 PM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 1/14/2016 4:40 AM, Tom Vandiver bs… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: >>>> I would suggest AIS, maybe receive only. It is relatively inexpensive, uses your VHF antenna and lets you know where commercial vessels are located relative to your boat's position. >>>> >>>> I am not familiar with your weather patterns, having only enjoyed one summer in the Chesapeake, but in SoCal due to fog, I considered radar essential. Now that I have been in the Gulf of Mexico, I also consider it essential. Several times we have saved our sails, by detecting a squall line on radar while crossing from Pensacola to the Keys. >>> >>> On the local schooner we've done the usual dodging of thunderstorms by viewing their pattern on radar. But my favorite time was one night when we needed to enter and anchor in a strange, small unlighted harbor in the dark, without a chartplotter, just the paper chart. One crew member was on the depth sounder, one was on the GPS, and I was on the radar. We dropped anchor and in the morning found that we were exactly where the captain had chosen to be on the chart. And nothing is more comforting than radar in a fog. On my last trip on the schooner it was my watch in the pea soup. We could not see anything, but we were crossing shipping lanes and could hear the fog signals. I must have hopped up and down the ladder 25 times to verify that were weren't colliding. I sometimes get snarky about over-reliance on electronics but they can often add a lot of safety margin. >>> >>> Chris Campbell > >