Re: [Cal_Boats] opinions, Cal 39? II or III ?

We bought our Cal 39 Mk2 about 4 years ago. This is our 5th boat in 30 years and the largest. we looked at a number of boats before settling on the Cal. I was interested in a ~ 40 foot boat, in the $50 -$70k range, suitable for sailing on SF bay (strong winds in the Spring, Summer, and Fall, but variable in the winter). Good cabin for weekending, cockpit suitable for offshore. Basically we wanted a stout, safe, fun, fast, affordable, pretty boat. These are the boats we tried: C&C 37: good build quality, nice cabin layout, decent cockpit, did not handle SF bay winds well. rudder is probably too small. Sabre 38 Mk1: poor build quality, nice cabin, nice cockpit, winds too light to evaluate how it would handle SF bay conditions, finally passed on it due to latent damage in keel from hard grounding Islander 40 (Peterson). Decent build quality, nice cabin, nice cockpit, very poor handling of bay winds. completely uncontrollable in 25 kts winds, w/ double reefed main and 100% jib. J-40. good build quality, nice cabin, nice interior, good SF bay handling, too expensive (2x the cost of a Cal) Nordic 40 (see J-40) Obviously, the Cal won the contest. I looked at every Cal 39 Mk2 that was for sale at the time, in the US before settling on this one (was in Berkeley all along) The Cal takes 25 kts plus on all points, w/out any complaint . The hull shape is well balanced (so very little drama at the helm) and the rudder up to the task when you need it. We sail it under 125% jib (no main) in winds from 15 kts to 30 kts. at winds below 15 kts, you need the main, but above that, she will drive at hull speed under jib alone and you save wear and tear on the more $ sail. I would say the build quality is good but not great. The hull layup is beefy, and the hull liner helps stiffen the entire structure. Interior finish is fair but the quality of work behind the finish panels is often shoddy (check the deck hardware backing plates). Systems are ok, but on a boat this old, you are likely to find a lot of “upgrades” that may or not be well executed. Apparently there is quite a bit of variation in build quality between examples and versions. I have no direct knowledge of this, but others may have data on this topic. Cabin layout is very workable for two and can accommodate guests for entertaining. Cockpit is a bit on the smallish side (good for offshore work), deep, secure and comfy for 4 to 6. The Cal is a joy to sail and presents to great challenges to an owner/maintainer/restorer. And you can still find parts! One trick is to find an example that has not been modified by well meaning but not so competent DYI’s Good luck, Jeff, Cal 39 MK2: Ecco San Francisco, Ca. My dream boats: J-105 for racing around the buoys Cal 39 for knocking around the bay Nordic 44 for coastal cruising Deerfoot (or Sundeer) for crossing oceans

Question: Wouldn't just about any boat handle 25 knots if you only had a 125% jib up? What about adding a reefed main above 20?Also, no one is mentioning the Cal 39 Mk-1. I always had the impression it was the best and fastest of the Cal 39 series since Bill made the mistake ( or not) of not considering IOR rules when he designed it, so it should be less prone to broaching, right? On Monday, February 1, 2016 6:42 PM, "Jeff Thayer je… [at] comcast.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: We bought our Cal 39 Mk2 about 4 years ago. This is our 5th boat in 30 years and the largest. we looked at a number of boats before settling on the Cal. I was interested in a ~ 40 foot boat, in the $50 -$70k range, suitable for sailing on SF bay (strong winds in the Spring, Summer, and Fall, but variable in the winter). Good cabin for weekending, cockpit suitable for offshore. Basically we wanted a stout, safe, fun, fast, affordable, pretty boat. These are the boats we tried: C&C 37: good build quality, nice cabin layout, decent cockpit, did not handle SF bay winds well. rudder is probably too small. Sabre 38 Mk1: poor build quality, nice cabin, nice cockpit, winds too light to evaluate how it would handle SF bay conditions, finally passed on it due to latent damage in keel from hard grounding Islander 40 (Peterson). Decent build quality, nice cabin, nice cockpit, very poor handling of bay winds. completely uncontrollable in 25 kts winds, w/ double reefed main and 100% jib. J-40. good build quality, nice cabin, nice interior, good SF bay handling, too expensive (2x the cost of a Cal) Nordic 40 (see J-40) Obviously, the Cal won the contest. I looked at every Cal 39 Mk2 that was for sale at the time, in the US before settling on this one (was in Berkeley all along) The Cal takes 25 kts plus on all points, w/out any complaint . The hull shape is well balanced (so very little drama at the helm) and the rudder up to the task when you need it. We sail it under 125% jib (no main) in winds from 15 kts to 30 kts. at winds below 15 kts, you need the main, but above that, she will drive at hull speed under jib alone and you save wear and tear on the more $ sail. I would say the build quality is good but not great. The hull layup is beefy, and the hull liner helps stiffen the entire structure. Interior finish is fair but the quality of work behind the finish panels is often shoddy (check the deck hardware backing plates). Systems are ok, but on a boat this old, you are likely to find a lot of “upgrades” that may or not be well executed. Apparently there is quite a bit of variation in build quality between examples and versions. I have no direct knowledge of this, but others may have data on this topic. Cabin layout is very workable for two and can accommodate guests for entertaining. Cockpit is a bit on the smallish side (good for offshore work), deep, secure and comfy for 4 to 6. The Cal is a joy to sail and presents to great challenges to an owner/maintainer/restorer. And you can still find parts! One trick is to find an example that has not been modified by well meaning but not so competent DYI’s Good luck, Jeff, Cal 39 MK2: Ecco San Francisco, Ca. My dream boats: J-105 for racing around the buoys Cal 39 for knocking around the bay Nordic 44 for coastal cruising Deerfoot (or Sundeer) for crossing oceans ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links

On the question of any boat handling 25 kts w/ jib alone? No, a great many boats will not balance under jib alone. They can get very squirrely and be a real handful. The center of effort acting on the underwater appendage (keel) needs to be able to move fore and aft (w/out extending beyond the physical keel) under commensurate changes in sail plan center of effort. If the COE moves beyond the physical keel, the rudder has to take up the slack and imposed loads on the rudder can grow very large which then can lead to rudder stall. The compromise is that a longer rooted keel is less efficient at creating lift (resisting leeway), but is more forgiving in balancing any given sail-plan. In my mind, Lapworth found a good middle ground: relatively high efficiency in lift, while still affording wide latitude in supported sail configurations. I have no experience w/ either the Mk1 or Mk3 so cannot offer any opinion. Jeff, Cal 39 MK2: Ecco San Francisco, Ca. From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, February 1, 2016 7:03 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] opinions, Cal 39? II or III ? Question: Wouldn't just about any boat handle 25 knots if you only had a 125% jib up? What about adding a reefed main above 20? Also, no one is mentioning the Cal 39 Mk-1. I always had the impression it was the best and fastest of the Cal 39 series since Bill made the mistake ( or not) of not considering IOR rules when he designed it, so it should be less prone to broaching, right? On Monday, February 1, 2016 6:42 PM, "Jeff Thayer je… [at] comcast.net<mailto:je… [at] comcast.net> [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> wrote: We bought our Cal 39 Mk2 about 4 years ago. This is our 5th boat in 30 years and the largest. we looked at a number of boats before settling on the Cal. I was interested in a ~ 40 foot boat, in the $50 -$70k range, suitable for sailing on SF bay (strong winds in the Spring, Summer, and Fall, but variable in the winter). Good cabin for weekending, cockpit suitable for offshore. Basically we wanted a stout, safe, fun, fast, affordable, pretty boat. These are the boats we tried: C&C 37: good build quality, nice cabin layout, decent cockpit, did not handle SF bay winds well. rudder is probably too small. Sabre 38 Mk1: poor build quality, nice cabin, nice cockpit, winds too light to evaluate how it would handle SF bay conditions, finally passed on it due to latent damage in keel from hard grounding Islander 40 (Peterson). Decent build quality, nice cabin, nice cockpit, very poor handling of bay winds. completely uncontrollable in 25 kts winds, w/ double reefed main and 100% jib. J-40. good build quality, nice cabin, nice interior, good SF bay handling, too expensive (2x the cost of a Cal) Nordic 40 (see J-40) Obviously, the Cal won the contest. I looked at every Cal 39 Mk2 that was for sale at the time, in the US before settling on this one (was in Berkeley all along) The Cal takes 25 kts plus on all points, w/out any complaint . The hull shape is well balanced (so very little drama at the helm) and the rudder up to the task when you need it. We sail it under 125% jib (no main) in winds from 15 kts to 30 kts. at winds below 15 kts, you need the main, but above that, she will drive at hull speed under jib alone and you save wear and tear on the more $ sail. I would say the build quality is good but not great. The hull layup is beefy, and the hull liner helps stiffen the entire structure. Interior finish is fair but the quality of work behind the finish panels is often shoddy (check the deck hardware backing plates). Systems are ok, but on a boat this old, you are likely to find a lot of “upgrades” that may or not be well executed. Apparently there is quite a bit of variation in build quality between examples and versions. I have no direct knowledge of this, but others may have data on this topic. Cabin layout is very workable for two and can accommodate guests for entertaining. Cockpit is a bit on the smallish side (good for offshore work), deep, secure and comfy for 4 to 6. The Cal is a joy to sail and presents to great challenges to an owner/maintainer/restorer. And you can still find parts! One trick is to find an example that has not been modified by well meaning but not so competent DYI’s Good luck, Jeff, Cal 39 MK2: Ecco San Francisco, Ca. My dream boats: J-105 for racing around the buoys Cal 39 for knocking around the bay Nordic 44 for coastal cruising Deerfoot (or Sundeer) for crossing oceans ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNICATION -- The information in this e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and proprietary to PRYSM, INC. and intended only for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you have received this communication in error, then any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited, and please permanently delete this message (including any copies of this e-mail and any attachments thereto) and notify us immediately by return e-mail.

Double reef in the main, #4 jib till over 30kts seems to work. Play the main to reduce power, don't go close to the wind. The boats are solid, well mannered, and can take a beating. Cons for the boat and we love ours. The rig does not allow the jib come in enough when you want to point. Berths are on the small side. Head is on the small, but serviceable side, for taking showers. Bilge does not have a sump (wet bilge) We have the deep keel (6'9"), so it is tight around the bay as a lot of spots need a shoal keel. Sam Wind Song Cal 39 mk III (hull 154) Alameda CA

We have a 79 Cal Corinthian. Basically a tall mast MK II with some interior tweaks. I've sailed / raced on a few other boats, but this is the first one I've not been shy about tearing apart and rebuilding. The boat itself sails wonderfully. We sailed / motored down from Coos Bay and despite all the systems being 30 years old, it did surprisingly well (much better than the crew) in 30 knot winds and breaking waves. Around the bay, again it is surprisingly easy to sail. I think it would have a more balanced and responsive helm if the rudder was a more modern shape, but otherwise it sails well. The hull, deck and structural fiberglass work is excellent. The finish trim and non critical systems are definitely sub par. That being said, we are pretty much replacing almost every non critical system on the boat so it doesn't bother me too much. Our boat was one of those that people just kept adding systems to it with no concern for proper layout or access for maintenance. I was all to happy to rip out all the plumbing and electrical and start over. Ours had quite a few leaks at the deck level, but nothing below the waterline. Of course one of the first things we did was haul out close 5 extra through hulls, replace all the other hulls and sea cocks, sand the bottom to the original gel coat and put on 4 new coats of barrier coat and bottom paint. We didn't find a single blister, and only some minor fiberglass deficiencies. Since replacing the toe rail, port lights, fixed windows and all the hatches, we now have a wonderfully dry boat in all weather. We've since painted the deckhouse with new 2 part epoxy paint and kiwi grip on the non skid. Folks are constantly coming around and asking what kind of boat that is now that it doesn't look 30+ years old. Greg From: "Jeff Thayer je… [at] comcast.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 1, 2016 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] opinions, Cal 39? II or III ? We bought our Cal 39 Mk2 about 4 years ago. This is our 5th boat in 30 years and the largest. we looked at a number of boats before settling on the Cal. I was interested in a ~ 40 foot boat, in the $50 -$70k range, suitable for sailing on SF bay (strong winds in the Spring, Summer, and Fall, but variable in the winter). Good cabin for weekending, cockpit suitable for offshore. Basically we wanted a stout, safe, fun, fast, affordable, pretty boat. These are the boats we tried: C&C 37: good build quality, nice cabin layout, decent cockpit, did not handle SF bay winds well. rudder is probably too small. Sabre 38 Mk1: poor build quality, nice cabin, nice cockpit, winds too light to evaluate how it would handle SF bay conditions, finally passed on it due to latent damage in keel from hard grounding Islander 40 (Peterson). Decent build quality, nice cabin, nice cockpit, very poor handling of bay winds. completely uncontrollable in 25 kts winds, w/ double reefed main and 100% jib. J-40. good build quality, nice cabin, nice interior, good SF bay handling, too expensive (2x the cost of a Cal) Nordic 40 (see J-40) Obviously, the Cal won the contest. I looked at every Cal 39 Mk2 that was for sale at the time, in the US before settling on this one (was in Berkeley all along) The Cal takes 25 kts plus on all points, w/out any complaint . The hull shape is well balanced (so very little drama at the helm) and the rudder up to the task when you need it. We sail it under 125% jib (no main) in winds from 15 kts to 30 kts. at winds below 15 kts, you need the main, but above that, she will drive at hull speed under jib alone and you save wear and tear on the more $ sail. I would say the build quality is good but not great. The hull layup is beefy, and the hull liner helps stiffen the entire structure. Interior finish is fair but the quality of work behind the finish panels is often shoddy (check the deck hardware backing plates). Systems are ok, but on a boat this old, you are likely to find a lot of “upgrades” that may or not be well executed. Apparently there is quite a bit of variation in build quality between examples and versions. I have no direct knowledge of this, but others may have data on this topic. Cabin layout is very workable for two and can accommodate guests for entertaining. Cockpit is a bit on the smallish side (good for offshore work), deep, secure and comfy for 4 to 6. The Cal is a joy to sail and presents to great challenges to an owner/maintainer/restorer. And you can still find parts! One trick is to find an example that has not been modified by well meaning but not so competent DYI’s Good luck, Jeff, Cal 39 MK2: Ecco San Francisco, Ca. My dream boats: J-105 for racing around the buoys Cal 39 for knocking around the bay Nordic 44 for coastal cruising Deerfoot (or Sundeer) for crossing oceans ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links

Some data on all types Cal 39 Mk 1 http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2325 Cal 39 Mk2 http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2323 Cal 39 Mk3 http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2322 Cal 39 Mk4 http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3670 and just for fun, Cal 40 http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1977 Jeff S/V Ecco Cal 39 Mk2 #115 San Francisco, Ca CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNICATION -- The information in this e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and proprietary to PRYSM, INC. and intended only for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you have received this communication in error, then any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited, and please permanently delete this message (including any copies of this e-mail and any attachments thereto) and notify us immediately by return e-mail.

Anyone out there with a Mk-1 Cal 39? Any thoughts? What sold me on the Cal 24-1 was, besides some "old timers" raves, was the unusually big berths. They're all 6'6"! Bill Lapworth was 6'5", and that's the reason why. So I have plenty of room for four adults, or three adults and a landing craft (8' Seyvlor Dinghy). Come to think of it, I could put the landing craft under the cockpit and have more room in the big V berth! And, by gosh, I've been told my boat is beach-able, but I've never tried it...yet. Now that I don't have to worry about my paint job (what paint?), why worry? Jerry, Shpritz, Marina del Rey. On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 6:34 AM, "sa… [at] lavanaway.org [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Double reef in the main, #4 jib till over 30kts seems to work. Play the main to reduce power, don't go close to the wind. The boats are solid, well mannered, and can take a beating. Cons for the boat and we love ours. The rig does not allow the jib come in enough when you want to point. Berths are on the small side. Head is on the small, but serviceable side, for taking showers. Bilge does not have a sump (wet bilge) We have the deep keel (6'9"), so it is tight around the bay as a lot of spots need a shoal keel. Sam Wind Song Cal 39 mk III (hull 154) Alameda CA -- {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} {margin-bottom:10px;} .yiv4924849813ad {padding:0 0;} .yiv4924849813ad p {margin:0;} .yiv4924849813ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} {font-family:Arial;} {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} .yiv4924849813ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} span {font-weight:700;} span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;} span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} span span {color:#ff7900;} span .yiv4924849813underline {text-decoration:underline;} .yiv4924849813attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} .yiv4924849813attach div a {text-decoration:none;} .yiv4924849813attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;} .yiv4924849813attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} .yiv4924849813attach label a {text-decoration:none;} blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;} .yiv4924849813bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} .yiv4924849813bold a {text-decoration:none;} dd.yiv4924849813last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} dd.yiv4924849813last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} dd.yiv4924849813last p span.yiv4924849813yshortcuts {margin-right:0;} div.yiv4924849813attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;} div.yiv4924849813attach-table {width:400px;} div.yiv4924849813file-title a, div.yiv4924849813file-title a:active, div.yiv4924849813file-title a:hover, div.yiv4924849813file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;} div.yiv4924849813photo-title a, div.yiv4924849813photo-title a:active, div.yiv4924849813photo-title a:hover, div.yiv4924849813photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;} div p a span.yiv4924849813yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} .yiv4924849813green {color:#628c2a;} .yiv4924849813MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;} o {font-size:0;} div {float:left;width:72px;} div div {border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} {font-size:77%;} {font-size:77%;} .yiv4924849813replbq {margin:4px;} div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} select, input, textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} pre, code {font:115% monospace;} * {line-height:1.22em;} {padding-bottom:10px;} p a {font-family:Verdana;} p span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} {font-family:Georgia;} p {margin:0 0 1em 0;} tt {font-size:120%;} ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}

Jeff, | | This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com | Thanks for a great write up on your Cal 39!I was just sailing my Cal 31 last weekend in 25-38 knots with my 155 rolled up to about 1' in front of the mast. What you were describing was about the same. To be truthful, I would subtract 5 from your wind speeds for my 31 to be equal. I will run out of rudder with a full main at 20+Her sweet-spot is 12 to 18 with full main and 155 to bring home some hardware. (unless those damn J boats are racing) Note: I am known to BBQ during a race and if stranded for the weekend, no one would be hungry or thirsty on my boat, Air cond, refer, 36" TV etc. (not stripped down) Dacron sails. I compared our boat hulls, no wonder. So, other than standard things like port lights, hatches, and deck joint there are no problems like the Cal 40 steel beam?Good to note the Mods made by the PO's Kevin OCal-31 "Kona"Las Vegas

Kevin, No steel beam under mast step (at least on the Cal 39 Mk2's that I've looked at. I have heard that the Mk1 had this issue, but only via hear-say. One design flaw I have encountered is the limited access to bilge (especially the limber holes). I had to pull up the entire floor to clear mine as years of neglect had let all manner of grime and sludge clog them. Nice comparison of the under-bodies, by the way.