Cal 39 owners: having survey done and need info about keel bolts(?)

Dear fellow Cal 39 owners: I have a 1979 Mkii that is being surveyed and neither the surveyor, nor I, know how the keel is attached to the hull. Are there keel bolts glassed under the bilge, was it a poured keel, or something else? There are no keel bolts visible on mine. thanks in advance for any insights! --Mark Miller "Old Jack Rose" Boston, MA

In nearly all Cal boats, the formed lead plug is dropped into a hollow fiberglass keel, along with a bunch of polyester and glass paste to hold it in place.I used to think they just had a huge ladle of molten lead, and just poured it in like an iron foundry, but I guess that would melt the plastic a bit. Am I on the right path? Are there any resident former factory employees on this site? If not, I can get a hold of one of the last ones somewhere else from my mailing list. [It's a shame, these old farts are disappearing like Holocaust witnesses and WWII veterans]. Some nerve! I think the Cal 24 Mk II has a bolt on iron keel, like some Columbias. On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 5:37 PM, "mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Dear fellow Cal 39 owners:I have a 1979 Mkii that is being surveyed and neither the surveyor, nor I, know how the keel is attached to the hull. Are there keel bolts glassed under the bilge, was it a poured keel, or something else? There are no keel bolts visible on mine. thanks in advance for any insights! --Mark Miller "Old Jack Rose" Boston, MA -- {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} {margin-bottom:10px;} .yiv9534725547ad {padding:0 0;} .yiv9534725547ad p {margin:0;} .yiv9534725547ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} {font-family:Arial;} {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} .yiv9534725547ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} span {font-weight:700;} span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;} span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} span span {color:#ff7900;} span .yiv9534725547underline {text-decoration:underline;} .yiv9534725547attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} .yiv9534725547attach div a {text-decoration:none;} .yiv9534725547attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;} .yiv9534725547attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} .yiv9534725547attach label a {text-decoration:none;} blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;} .yiv9534725547bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} .yiv9534725547bold a {text-decoration:none;} dd.yiv9534725547last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} dd.yiv9534725547last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} dd.yiv9534725547last p span.yiv9534725547yshortcuts {margin-right:0;} div.yiv9534725547attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;} div.yiv9534725547attach-table {width:400px;} div.yiv9534725547file-title a, div.yiv9534725547file-title a:active, div.yiv9534725547file-title a:hover, div.yiv9534725547file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;} div.yiv9534725547photo-title a, div.yiv9534725547photo-title a:active, div.yiv9534725547photo-title a:hover, div.yiv9534725547photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;} div p a span.yiv9534725547yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} .yiv9534725547green {color:#628c2a;} .yiv9534725547MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;} o {font-size:0;} div {float:left;width:72px;} div div {border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} {font-size:77%;} {font-size:77%;} .yiv9534725547replbq {margin:4px;} div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} select, input, textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} pre, code {font:115% monospace;} * {line-height:1.22em;} {padding-bottom:10px;} p a {font-family:Verdana;} p span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} {font-family:Georgia;} p {margin:0 0 1em 0;} tt {font-size:120%;} ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}

Hate to be a wet blanket, but if your surveyor is confused on this matter, you have the wrong surveyor. There is nothing odd or mysterious about any Cal boat ever manufactured. Your surveyor should be familiar with the boat and it's construction. If he's not experienced with the boat, how can he possibly give you the value you are paying for? If you're serious about the boat, a proper surveyor is worth every penny you will pay. If he finds even one multi-thousand dollar "gotcha", paying again will be a bargain. > On Feb 25, 2016, at 10:05, Gerald Sobel so… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > In nearly all Cal boats, the formed lead plug is dropped into a hollow fiberglass keel, along with a bunch of polyester and glass paste to hold it in place.I used to think they just had a huge ladle of molten lead, and just poured it in like an iron foundry, but I guess that would melt the plastic a bit. Am I on the right path? Are there any resident former factory employees on this site? If not, I can get a hold of one of the last ones somewhere else from my mailing list. [It's a shame, these old farts are disappearing like Holocaust witnesses and WWII veterans]. Some nerve! > I think the Cal 24 Mk II has a bolt on iron keel, like some Columbias. > > > On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 5:37 PM, "mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > Dear fellow Cal 39 owners: > I have a 1979 Mkii that is being surveyed and neither the surveyor, nor I, know how the keel is attached to the hull. Are there keel bolts glassed under the bilge, was it a poured keel, or something else? There are no keel bolts visible on mine. thanks in advance for any insights! > > --Mark Miller > "Old Jack Rose" > Boston, MA > > >

I have to agree with the comment below. I had my '80 Cal 39 MKIII surveyed by a guy who was also a naval architect. He explained to me that the hull was built in 2 halves and that the structural fiberglass that holds the two halves together is on the inside of the hull. The lead in the keel is essentially lead shot like you'd find in a shotgun shell. As I was going to have the boat trucked from Maine to Maryland and could not sail the boat or run the engine it was important that I have as good of a surveyor as possible. I also was able to negotiate $5,000 of the price to go into an escrow account until I could get the engine surveyed back in Maryland so I actually had 2 separate surveys done and was very happy with both as I had no surprises. Good luck! Paul West From: Kris cr… [at] att.net [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>; Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> Sent: Wed, Feb 24, 2016 9:33 pm Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 39 owners: having survey done and need info about keel bolts(?) Hate to be a wet blanket, but if your surveyor is confused on this matter, you have the wrong surveyor. There is nothing odd or mysterious about any Cal boat ever manufactured. Your surveyor should be familiar with the boat and it's construction. If he's not experienced with the boat, how can he possibly give you the value you are paying for? If you're serious about the boat, a proper surveyor is worth every penny you will pay. If he finds even one multi-thousand dollar "gotcha", paying again will be a bargain. On Feb 25, 2016, at 10:05, Gerald Sobel so… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: In nearly all Cal boats, the formed lead plug is dropped into a hollow fiberglass keel, along with a bunch of polyester and glass paste to hold it in place.I used to think they just had a huge ladle of molten lead, and just poured it in like an iron foundry, but I guess that would melt the plastic a bit. Am I on the right path? Are there any resident former factory employees on this site? If not, I can get a hold of one of the last ones somewhere else from my mailing list. [It's a shame, these old farts are disappearing like Holocaust witnesses and WWII veterans]. Some nerve! I think the Cal 24 Mk II has a bolt on iron keel, like some Columbias. On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 5:37 PM, "mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Dear fellow Cal 39 owners: I have a 1979 Mkii that is being surveyed and neither the surveyor, nor I, know how the keel is attached to the hull. Are there keel bolts glassed under the bilge, was it a poured keel, or something else? There are no keel bolts visible on mine. thanks in advance for any insights! --Mark Miller "Old Jack Rose" Boston, MA

Thanks everyone for the comments about the Cal 39 hull-keel joint. I have owned the boat for 6 years and am having it re-surveyed for insurance purposes. The primary question was whether or not there are keel bolts embedded in the fiberglass below the bilge and I haven't heard back from anyone about that specifically. Any additional info on that would be much appreciated. --Mark

Mark- As I understand it, several production boat manufacturers (e.g. Catalina) would attach a lead keel to the hull with through-bolts. This technique requires checking the integrity of those through-bolts, especially on an older boat (if the bolts crack off and a surveyor said it looked good, he's not getting any referrals from that insurance co anytime soon) which is why I think your surveyor asked the question. As I understand it, with few exceptions, the keel ballast in Cals were encapsulated and thus part of the hull. I also understand that the lead may have been ball bearings with filler material as opposed to extruded lead. It's just a different production process. Your surveyor will still want to check that the keel is structurally sound, but I think that is probably done in other ways (e.g looking for cracks underneath). Best, Mike Casillo Cal 2-25 Annapolis > On Feb 25, 2016, at 4:58 AM, mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Thanks everyone for the comments about the Cal 39 hull-keel joint. I have owned the boat for 6 years and am having it re-surveyed for insurance purposes. The primary question was whether or not there are keel bolts embedded in the fiberglass below the bilge and I haven't heard back from anyone about that specifically. Any additional info on that would be much appreciated. > > > --Mark >

On 2/25/2016 6:58 AM, mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > Thanks everyone for the comments about the Cal 39 hull-keel joint. I > have owned the boat for 6 years and am having it re-surveyed for > insurance purposes. The primary question was whether or not there are > keel bolts embedded in the fiberglass below the bilge and I haven't > heard back from anyone about that specifically. Any additional info on > that would be much appreciated. I've read the other comments and agree with them. First, if you're just trying to get the boat cleared so it's insurable, having a clueless surveyor might be a good thing. The fewr problems, the less hassle with some insurance fly-specker. If you're really wondering what things need attention, you need one who understands boat construction techniques and materials. The local wooden schooner was surveyed a number of years ago and I was amazed at the surveyor's perceptions and insights. It was obvious that he was very capable, with substantial knowledge, even of traditionally-built wooden hulls. Second, the keel structure is almost always visible to the informed eye. My Cal 20 has a bolt-on iron fin keel. Anybody who knows the slightest about boats can see that. My other boat has a keel with a bolt-on exterior iron ballast. You can see the transition line and some evidence of old rust pits. You can see the bumps where the keel bolts lie under little fiberglass caps in the bilge. Many boats have bolt-on exterior lead ballast. That won't be pitted from rust but there's almost always visual evidence of the transition, often in the form of a fine crack in whatever filler or sealer was used to seal things up. (And, if you look around any boatyard, some bare lead at the leading bottom corner where the keel brushed the bottom now and then). Even if the bottom is so fastidiously maintained that you can't see a line between fiberglass and metal, a little tapping with a small hammer ought to make it clear whether the ballast is internal or external. Chris Campbell

....get a new surveyor. If he can't figure it out, do you really trust him on other details? If it is on the hard, it is easy to see. Jim Cal 29 sailor. On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 8:37 PM, mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Dear fellow Cal 39 owners: > > I have a 1979 Mkii that is being surveyed and neither the surveyor, nor I, > know how the keel is attached to the hull. Are there keel bolts glassed > under the bilge, was it a poured keel, or something else? There are no > keel bolts visible on mine. thanks in advance for any insights! > > > --Mark Miller > > "Old Jack Rose" > > Boston, MA > > >

I purchased as set of plans for the Cal 39 MK2 some years back. I can remember from whom, but try this link: The plans show an “encapsulated lead keel” w/ no bolting required. Although I have a MkIII I purchased a set of MkII plans from Mr. Lapworth several years ago. Let me know if you are interested. We can take the details offline. Regards, Wayne Gillikin 1982 Cal 39 Mk III "Elusive" wa… [at] proteanmethods.com<mailto:wa… [at] proteanmethods.com> Jeff Thayer S/V Ecco Cal 39 Mk2, #115 San Francisco, Ca From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 6:41 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; mi… [at] yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 39 owners: having survey done and need info about keel bolts(?) On 2/25/2016 6:58 AM, mi… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:mi… [at] yahoo.com> [Cal_Boats] wrote: Thanks everyone for the comments about the Cal 39 hull-keel joint. I have owned the boat for 6 years and am having it re-surveyed for insurance purposes. The primary question was whether or not there are keel bolts embedded in the fiberglass below the bilge and I haven't heard back from anyone about that specifically. Any additional info on that would be much appreciated. I've read the other comments and agree with them. First, if you're just trying to get the boat cleared so it's insurable, having a clueless surveyor might be a good thing. The fewr problems, the less hassle with some insurance fly-specker. If you're really wondering what things need attention, you need one who understands boat construction techniques and materials. The local wooden schooner was surveyed a number of years ago and I was amazed at the surveyor's perceptions and insights. It was obvious that he was very capable, with substantial knowledge, even of traditionally-built wooden hulls. Second, the keel structure is almost always visible to the informed eye. My Cal 20 has a bolt-on iron fin keel. Anybody who knows the slightest about boats can see that. My other boat has a keel with a bolt-on exterior iron ballast. You can see the transition line and some evidence of old rust pits. You can see the bumps where the keel bolts lie under little fiberglass caps in the bilge. Many boats have bolt-on exterior lead ballast. That won't be pitted from rust but there's almost always visual evidence of the transition, often in the form of a fine crack in whatever filler or sealer was used to seal things up. (And, if you look around any boatyard, some bare lead at the leading bottom corner where the keel brushed the bottom now and then). Even if the bottom is so fastidiously maintained that you can't see a line between fiberglass and metal, a little tapping with a small hammer ought to make it clear whether the ballast is internal or external. Chris Campbell CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNICATION -- The information in this e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential and proprietary to PRYSM, INC. and intended only for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you have received this communication in error, then any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited, and please permanently delete this message (including any copies of this e-mail and any attachments thereto) and notify us immediately by return e-mail.

Jeff, thanks for your reply. The link you mentioned (which sounds helpful) didn't come through in your message. Could you try re-sending?

Hi Mark, 6 years is a good overdue limit to how long a boat should receive attention as to its underwater condition. If you are hauling out for survey (insurance surveys are sometimes done in the water) it is a good time to schedule your rudder and rudder post inspection and a refresh or replace of your bottom paint. Cals are not the only boats built with encapsulated keels. We are currently doing the bottom of our cal 2-27, also encapsulated, as is our cal36. We will be ahead of the season and raring to go (as soon as the dredge gets caught up with the onslaught of sand blocking the harbor mouth.) Even though the yard is now limited to boats trapped in harbor or trailered in, they are turning over better than 5 boats a week. We are doing our own work, weather is great , a little over a week and looking to splash on weekend. Helen and Edward

Paul, I've heard that some Columbia's were built like that (two halves glued together), but I haven't heard that about Cals. Are you sure? Is the lead a cast plug, or, is it a slurry of lead B-B's and polyester paste? Seems to me millions of B-Bs would be an expensive way to go, but, what do I know?On my 36" LOD hamster yacht, the ballast was two large lead sinkers, pounded into shape using a hammer and and anvil my dad had made out of a section of rail road rail. I might note that 1"=one golden hamster foot, so, she was a pretty big boat, as hamsters go. On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 8:07 PM, "pw… [at] aol.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: I have to agree with the comment below. I had my '80 Cal 39 MKIII surveyed by a guy who was also a naval architect. He explained to me that the hull was built in 2 halves and that the structural fiberglass that holds the two halves together is on the inside of the hull. The lead in the keel is essentially lead shot like you'd find in a shotgun shell. As I was going to have the boat trucked from Maine to Maryland and could not sail the boat or run the engine it was important that I have as good of a surveyor as possible. I also was able to negotiate $5,000 of the price to go into an escrow account until I could get the engine surveyed back in Maryland so I actually had 2 separate surveys done and was very happy with both as I had no surprises. Good luck! Paul West From: Kris cr… [at] att.net [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>; Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> Sent: Wed, Feb 24, 2016 9:33 pm Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 39 owners: having survey done and need info about keel bolts(?) Hate to be a wet blanket, but if your surveyor is confused on this matter, you have the wrong surveyor. There is nothing odd or mysterious about any Cal boat ever manufactured. Your surveyor should be familiar with the boat and it's construction. If he's not experienced with the boat, how can he possibly give you the value you are paying for? If you're serious about the boat, a proper surveyor is worth every penny you will pay. If he finds even one multi-thousand dollar "gotcha", paying again will be a bargain. On Feb 25, 2016, at 10:05, Gerald Sobel so… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: In nearly all Cal boats, the formed lead plug is dropped into a hollow fiberglass keel, along with a bunch of polyester and glass paste to hold it in place.I used to think they just had a huge ladle of molten lead, and just poured it in like an iron foundry, but I guess that would melt the plastic a bit. Am I on the right path? Are there any resident former factory employees on this site? If not, I can get a hold of one of the last ones somewhere else from my mailing list. [It's a shame, these old farts are disappearing like Holocaust witnesses and WWII veterans]. Some nerve! I think the Cal 24 Mk II has a bolt on iron keel, like some Columbias. On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 5:37 PM, "mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Dear fellow Cal 39 owners:I have a 1979 Mkii that is being surveyed and neither the surveyor, nor I, know how the keel is attached to the hull. Are there keel bolts glassed under the bilge, was it a poured keel, or something else? There are no keel bolts visible on mine. thanks in advance for any insights! --Mark Miller "Old Jack Rose" Boston, MA

Not sure of that 39’ model, “many” Cal’s were built in the same fashion as the 40’ See http://www.cal40.com/files/howtobuildcal40.pdf And then races are won and records are broken, dEmO From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 3:39 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; pw… [at] aol.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 39 owners: having survey done and need info about keel bolts(?) Paul, I've heard that some Columbia's were built like that (two halves glued together), but I haven't heard that about Cals. Are you sure? Is the lead a cast plug, or, is it a slurry of lead B-B's and polyester paste? Seems to me millions of B-Bs would be an expensive way to go, but, what do I know? On my 36" LOD hamster yacht, the ballast was two large lead sinkers, pounded into shape using a hammer and and anvil my dad had made out of a section of rail road rail. I might note that 1"=one golden hamster foot, so, she was a pretty big boat, as hamsters go. On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 8:07 PM, "pw… [at] aol.com [Cal_Boats] <mailto:pw… [at] aol.com%20[Cal_Boats]> " <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > wrote: I have to agree with the comment below. I had my '80 Cal 39 MKIII surveyed by a guy who was also a naval architect. He explained to me that the hull was built in 2 halves and that the structural fiberglass that holds the two halves together is on the inside of the hull. The lead in the keel is essentially lead shot like you'd find in a shotgun shell. As I was going to have the boat trucked from Maine to Maryland and could not sail the boat or run the engine it was important that I have as good of a surveyor as possible. I also was able to negotiate $5,000 of the price to go into an escrow account until I could get the engine surveyed back in Maryland so I actually had 2 separate surveys done and was very happy with both as I had no surprises. Good luck! Paul West From: Kris cr… [at] att.net <mailto:cr… [at] att.net> [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >; Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com <mailto:so… [at] yahoo.com> > Sent: Wed, Feb 24, 2016 9:33 pm Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 39 owners: having survey done and need info about keel bolts(?) Hate to be a wet blanket, but if your surveyor is confused on this matter, you have the wrong surveyor. There is nothing odd or mysterious about any Cal boat ever manufactured. Your surveyor should be familiar with the boat and it's construction. If he's not experienced with the boat, how can he possibly give you the value you are paying for? If you're serious about the boat, a proper surveyor is worth every penny you will pay. If he finds even one multi-thousand dollar "gotcha", paying again will be a bargain. On Feb 25, 2016, at 10:05, Gerald Sobel so… [at] yahoo.com <mailto:so… [at] yahoo.com> [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > wrote: In nearly all Cal boats, the formed lead plug is dropped into a hollow fiberglass keel, along with a bunch of polyester and glass paste to hold it in place.I used to think they just had a huge ladle of molten lead, and just poured it in like an iron foundry, but I guess that would melt the plastic a bit. Am I on the right path? Are there any resident former factory employees on this site? If not, I can get a hold of one of the last ones somewhere else from my mailing list. [It's a shame, these old farts are disappearing like Holocaust witnesses and WWII veterans]. Some nerve! I think the Cal 24 Mk II has a bolt on iron keel, like some Columbias. On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 5:37 PM, "mi… [at] yahoo.com <mailto:mi… [at] yahoo.com> [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > wrote: Dear fellow Cal 39 owners: I have a 1979 Mkii that is being surveyed and neither the surveyor, nor I, know how the keel is attached to the hull. Are there keel bolts glassed under the bilge, was it a poured keel, or something else? There are no keel bolts visible on mine. thanks in advance for any insights! --Mark Miller "Old Jack Rose" Boston, MA

Great brochure and pics. Thanks for posting!