Keel Flexing on Cal 27 Mark III

Can anyone tell me if it's normal for a Keel to flex back and forth a couple inches when hung from a sling so that there's no weight on the keel? I have a 2-3 inch flex on mine. A marine surveyor tapped the hull and found nothing. And two knowledgeable boat restoration fellows checked the interior, keel boats and outside of the hull and can find nothing abnormal. We're down to concluding that a small flexing is normal for this keel when hung from a sling without the mast on the boat. Also the door to the head slides easily indicating no abnormal hull issues. Any help would be greatly appreciated!DavidCal 27 Mark III

My 29 keel flops around just like what you described. You can also get your 27 keel to flop around when in the water by standing on the floor and shifting your weight from one foot to another, if you do it at the right frequency. Done it on a few boats. The laminates in these boats gets weaker w age. I think some estimates put the stiffness at about 40% of what it was when it was new. The good news is the boats were way over built, so they can take the degradation and last a long time. I would keep my eye out for cracks along the hull keel joint. I am hoping some day to put my boat on the hard and fix this issue, but it is a hug, messy job. For my boat, it would involve cutting/grinding the cabin tray out and re-glassing the hull/keel area with some core to stiffen it. The long and short of it, I probably wouldn't sweat it, till it becomes a bigger issue. East Coast Cal 29 sailor. On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 8:14 PM, David Field fi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Can anyone tell me if it's normal for a Keel to flex back and forth a > couple inches when hung from a sling so that there's no weight on the keel? > I have a 2-3 inch flex on mine. A marine surveyor tapped the hull and found > nothing. And two knowledgeable boat restoration fellows checked the > interior, keel boats and outside of the hull and can find nothing > abnormal. We're down to concluding that a small flexing is normal for this > keel when hung from a sling without the mast on the boat. Also the door to > the head slides easily indicating no abnormal hull issues. Any help would > be greatly appreciated! > David > Cal 27 Mark III > > >

David, Is this your boat or one you're thinking of buying? If buying, don't, you don't need that kind of headache. If it's yours, my condolences and I hope you really love this boat and have a fair bit of extra cash and/or time and/or skill because at the very least I think you have a keel removal and reinstall to do and if it doesn't seem like the bolts are moving in the hull, then I would say the keel stub is compromised and will need to be reinforced. You need to determine which of those is happening if not both. Doesn't sound right, and doesn't sound fun. On my non-Cal 28, my keel didn't waggle but it sagged when in the slings, opening a crack between the keel and stub. This closed up when the weight was back on it. My solution was to glass the keel on. Ground the paint, etc down to bare fiberglass on the stub and bare lead on the keel. Hung it and cleaned out the crack as best I could and resealed with 5200. Put the weight back on and let that cure. Sanded neat West epoxy into the keel and stub with 36 grit, then laid on two pre-saturated layers of Dynel fabric while it was all still wet. After a couple days curing, faired it all smooth and finished the bottom job. Boat got rode hard for several years after that. Many windy days, at least one hard grounding, three full gales sailing from Alaska to San Francisco and 5 years later when I sold it, during the survey haul out there was not a hint of a crack or movement in that glass. Not necessarily relevant to your situation but let you know what's possible if you want to make the effort. Kris > On May 24, 2016, at 17:14, David Field fi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Can anyone tell me if it's normal for a Keel to flex back and forth a couple inches when hung from a sling so that there's no weight on the keel? I have a 2-3 inch flex on mine. A marine surveyor tapped the hull and found nothing. And two knowledgeable boat restoration fellows checked the interior, keel boats and outside of the hull and can find nothing abnormal. We're down to concluding that a small flexing is normal for this keel when hung from a sling without the mast on the boat. Also the door to the head slides easily indicating no abnormal hull issues. Any help would be greatly appreciated! > David > Cal 27 Mark III >

Are you sure you have keel bolts? Most Cals don't, and have encapsulated balance instead. My Cal 29 has no bolts and flexes the way you described. It's not ideal, but not unexpected in old boats. Greg Beron Cal 29 Happy Hour Marina del Rey > On May 24, 2016, at 5:14 PM, David Field fi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Can anyone tell me if it's normal for a Keel to flex back and forth a couple inches when hung from a sling so that there's no weight on the keel? I have a 2-3 inch flex on mine. A marine surveyor tapped the hull and found nothing. And two knowledgeable boat restoration fellows checked the interior, keel boats and outside of the hull and can find nothing abnormal. We're down to concluding that a small flexing is normal for this keel when hung from a sling without the mast on the boat. Also the door to the head slides easily indicating no abnormal hull issues. Any help would be greatly appreciated! > David > Cal 27 Mark III >

Kris.........Completely different issue. The 2-27 has a molded keel. It flexes because the floor is a relatively thin laminate. The keel stub is not compromised, there is no need for condolences. There isn't a keel stub on these boats. Cracks are common with boats that have bolt on keels for numerous reasons. On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 9:02 PM, Kris cr… [at] att.net [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > David, > > Is this your boat or one you're thinking of buying? > > If buying, don't, you don't need that kind of headache. If it's yours, my > condolences and I hope you really love this boat and have a fair bit of > extra cash and/or time and/or skill because at the very least I think you > have a keel removal and reinstall to do and if it doesn't seem like the > bolts are moving in the hull, then I would say the keel stub is compromised > and will need to be reinforced. You need to determine which of those is > happening if not both. Doesn't sound right, and doesn't sound fun. > > On my non-Cal 28, my keel didn't waggle but it sagged when in the slings, > opening a crack between the keel and stub. This closed up when the weight > was back on it. My solution was to glass the keel on. Ground the paint, > etc down to bare fiberglass on the stub and bare lead on the keel. Hung it > and cleaned out the crack as best I could and resealed with 5200. Put the > weight back on and let that cure. Sanded neat West epoxy into the keel and > stub with 36 grit, then laid on two pre-saturated layers of Dynel fabric > while it was all still wet. After a couple days curing, faired it all > smooth and finished the bottom job. Boat got rode hard for several years > after that. Many windy days, at least one hard grounding, three full gales > sailing from Alaska to San Francisco and 5 years later when I sold it, > during the survey haul out there was not a hint of a crack or movement in > that glass. > > Not necessarily relevant to your situation but let you know what's > possible if you want to make the effort. > > Kris > > On May 24, 2016, at 17:14, David Field fi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] < > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > Can anyone tell me if it's normal for a Keel to flex back and forth a > couple inches when hung from a sling so that there's no weight on the keel? > I have a 2-3 inch flex on mine. A marine surveyor tapped the hull and found > nothing. And two knowledgeable boat restoration fellows checked the > interior, keel boats and outside of the hull and can find nothing > abnormal. We're down to concluding that a small flexing is normal for this > keel when hung from a sling without the mast on the boat. Also the door to > the head slides easily indicating no abnormal hull issues. Any help would > be greatly appreciated! > David > Cal 27 Mark III > > >

The "newer" 27 keels were fairly fat and yes a fatter keel, is in general stiffer, but if you look at the motion, it is moving the floor because the floor is relatively thin for the load. If one were to do the shaking test I described earlier, it is easy to see the keel moves side to side because the floor is moving up and down. If the bottom of the keel move to port, the port side of the keel pushed up at the hull and the starboard side pulls down. A tiny bit of flex in the hull/floor causes a great deal of movement at the tip of the keel. Most of the conditions people sail in the water acts as a dampener and it isn't noticed much. I would like to fix mine for performance reasons. If my keel is flexing, my boat is healing a little before the keel begins to take the load up. I am certain that is wasted energy. Some day, but not worried > On May 24, 2016, at 10:04 PM, Kris <cr… [at] att.net> wrote: > > I stand corrected. I assumed his mention of "keel boats" was an auto-correction of "keel bolts". Never having been intimate with a 2-27, wasn't familiar with the arrangement. My Cruising 35 has a very fat encapsulated keel. It is quite unlikely for it to flex. If it did, I would deem the boat unsafe to sail. The vast majority of molded keels I've looked at shared that trait of being "fatter" than a typical bolt on. Thicker sections should be inherently stiffer than thinner ones if physics apply here. Sounds as if I would still have a concern, but I'll concede to the experienced keel wagglers that it may be completely normal... > > Kris > >> On May 24, 2016, at 18:28, sailor7312 . <sa… [at] gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Kris.........Completely different issue. The 2-27 has a molded keel. It flexes because the floor is a relatively thin laminate. >> The keel stub is not compromised, there is no need for condolences. There isn't a keel stub on these boats. >> Cracks are common with boats that have bolt on keels for numerous reasons. >> >> >> >> >>> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 9:02 PM, Kris cr… [at] att.net [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>> >>> David, >>> >>> Is this your boat or one you're thinking of buying? >>> >>> If buying, don't, you don't need that kind of headache. If it's yours, my condolences and I hope you really love this boat and have a fair bit of extra cash and/or time and/or skill because at the very least I think you have a keel removal and reinstall to do and if it doesn't seem like the bolts are moving in the hull, then I would say the keel stub is compromised and will need to be reinforced. You need to determine which of those is happening if not both. Doesn't sound right, and doesn't sound fun. >>> >>> On my non-Cal 28, my keel didn't waggle but it sagged when in the slings, opening a crack between the keel and stub. This closed up when the weight was back on it. My solution was to glass the keel on. Ground the paint, etc down to bare fiberglass on the stub and bare lead on the keel. Hung it and cleaned out the crack as best I could and resealed with 5200. Put the weight back on and let that cure. Sanded neat West epoxy into the keel and stub with 36 grit, then laid on two pre-saturated layers of Dynel fabric while it was all still wet. After a couple days curing, faired it all smooth and finished the bottom job. Boat got rode hard for several years after that. Many windy days, at least one hard grounding, three full gales sailing from Alaska to San Francisco and 5 years later when I sold it, during the survey haul out there was not a hint of a crack or movement in that glass. >>> >>> Not necessarily relevant to your situation but let you know what's possible if you want to make the effort. >>> >>> Kris >>> >>>> On May 24, 2016, at 17:14, David Field fi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Can anyone tell me if it's normal for a Keel to flex back and forth a couple inches when hung from a sling so that there's no weight on the keel? I have a 2-3 inch flex on mine. A marine surveyor tapped the hull and found nothing. And two knowledgeable boat restoration fellows checked the interior, keel boats and outside of the hull and can find nothing abnormal. We're down to concluding that a small flexing is normal for this keel when hung from a sling without the mast on the boat. Also the door to the head slides easily indicating no abnormal hull issues. Any help would be greatly appreciated! >>>> David >>>> Cal 27 Mark III >>> >>> >>

Cal 25's have been discussed many times about their keel flex. The Cal 34 I sailed on I could get good keel flex when the mast was down. Rocking the boat I could get a resonance where the keel was really rockin and rollin out of sync with the hull. I'm not expert enough to know if the flex is above or below the limit of causing damage. I first noticed the hull flexing on a trip to and back from Hawaii in 85. Sleeping on the cabin sole (most comfortable place on the boat at the time) you could feel the hull flex around the keel. I didn't think too much about it since on another earlier trip I could feel wriggles in a 50' 40,000 lb massive aluminum boat with big ring frames everywhere. (Frers design Scaramouche.) Internal keel reinforcement - Boat Design Forums | | | | | | | | | | | Internal keel reinforcement - Boat Design Forums There was a post a while back about a sailboat that had an internal keel that wiggled on a Gladiator 24. The Cal... | | | | On Tuesday, May 24, 2016 7:40 PM, "Jim Englert sa… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: The "newer" 27 keels were fairly fat and yes a fatter keel, is in general stiffer, but if you look at the motion, it is moving the floor because the floor is relatively thin for the load. If one were to do the shaking test I described earlier, it is easy to see the keel moves side to side because the floor is moving up and down. If the bottom of the keel move to port, the port side of the keel pushed up at the hull and the starboard side pulls down. A tiny bit of flex in the hull/floor causes a great deal of movement at the tip of the keel. Most of the conditions people sail in the water acts as a dampener and it isn't noticed much. I would like to fix mine for performance reasons. If my keel is flexing, my boat is healing a little before the keel begins to take the load up. I am certain that is wasted energy. Some day, but not worried On May 24, 2016, at 10:04 PM, Kris <cr… [at] att.net> wrote: I stand corrected. I assumed his mention of "keel boats" was an auto-correction of "keel bolts". Never having been intimate with a 2-27, wasn't familiar with the arrangement. My Cruising 35 has a very fat encapsulated keel. It is quite unlikely for it to flex. If it did, I would deem the boat unsafe to sail. The vast majority of molded keels I've looked at shared that trait of being "fatter" than a typical bolt on. Thicker sections should be inherently stiffer than thinner ones if physics apply here. Sounds as if I would still have a concern, but I'll concede to the experienced keel wagglers that it may be completely normal... Kris On May 24, 2016, at 18:28, sailor7312 . <sa… [at] gmail.com> wrote: Kris.........Completely different issue. The 2-27 has a molded keel. It flexes because the floor is a relatively thin laminate. The keel stub is not compromised, there is no need for condolences. There isn't a keel stub on these boats. Cracks are common with boats that have bolt on keels for numerous reasons. On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 9:02 PM, Kris cr… [at] att.net [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: David, Is this your boat or one you're thinking of buying? If buying, don't, you don't need that kind of headache. If it's yours, my condolences and I hope you really love this boat and have a fair bit of extra cash and/or time and/or skill because at the very least I think you have a keel removal and reinstall to do and if it doesn't seem like the bolts are moving in the hull, then I would say the keel stub is compromised and will need to be reinforced. You need to determine which of those is happening if not both. Doesn't sound right, and doesn't sound fun. On my non-Cal 28, my keel didn't waggle but it sagged when in the slings, opening a crack between the keel and stub. This closed up when the weight was back on it. My solution was to glass the keel on. Ground the paint, etc down to bare fiberglass on the stub and bare lead on the keel. Hung it and cleaned out the crack as best I could and resealed with 5200. Put the weight back on and let that cure. Sanded neat West epoxy into the keel and stub with 36 grit, then laid on two pre-saturated layers of Dynel fabric while it was all still wet. After a couple days curing, faired it all smooth and finished the bottom job. Boat got rode hard for several years after that. Many windy days, at least one hard grounding, three full gales sailing from Alaska to San Francisco and 5 years later when I sold it, during the survey haul out there was not a hint of a crack or movement in that glass. Not necessarily relevant to your situation but let you know what's possible if you want to make the effort. Kris On May 24, 2016, at 17:14, David Field fi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Can anyone tell me if it's normal for a Keel to flex back and forth a couple inches when hung from a sling so that there's no weight on the keel? I have a 2-3 inch flex on mine. A marine surveyor tapped the hull and found nothing. And two knowledgeable boat restoration fellows checked the interior, keel boats and outside of the hull and can find nothing abnormal. We're down to concluding that a small flexing is normal for this keel when hung from a sling without the mast on the boat. Also the door to the head slides easily indicating no abnormal hull issues. Any help would be greatly appreciated!DavidCal 27 Mark III

Hi Maties, I'm well familiar with keel flex on Cal 25's. I purchased an early model that had been used as a sailing trainer on a Navy base in San Diego. I'd picked it up from it's second owner, a sailor that was being transferred East, from EBay. After scraping the bottom of considerable marine sludge from a supposedly recently bottom painted boat, we set sail the 106 miles up to Marina del Rey in late February. I then slipped the boat in the same marina where I was keeping my original boat, an early Cal 24 Jensen "Kit-built" boat. I wanted to test my skills sailing a more modern design. Great boat, roomier interior-way more head room than my Cal24, but with slightly more free board, not nearly as much fun to sail. Long story short, I definitely noticed the wiggling "woop-dee-doo" the keel made when riding over a swell, and it was to me very disconcerting. So, main reason I'm posting is I remember a fellow who bought a Cal 25 in CA, sailed it down to the Panama isthmus, had it trucked over to the Atlantic side, and sailed her up thru the Gulf of Mexico to Florida. By the time he got home after a lot of hard blue water sailing, he felt the keel-hull joint was destructing (apparently there are stories of Cal 25's breaking off) and he did extensive reinforcement to the keel joint and hull using stringers. It necessitated removing the deck from the hull as I recall. He also built in a short dog house, and, like Robin Grahm and his Lapworth 24 "Dove", took off around the world, eventually meeting a woman and birthing two children en-route. Now, I don't know if the name Clark is correct or not, but, I know he wrote up his story(s) in one of the major sailing mags, and his story is pretty well know. ALSO, we have a sailor out of Santa Barbara who rebuilt his fatiguing keel to hull joint on his Cal 29 after a haul-out showed dangerous cracking along the joint. It was a major, expensive project but he so loved the boat that he but the bullet and did it any way. Interestingly, the boat sailed faster and handled better as a result. You can look it up on our Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com site. He did a photo journal of his project. He'd previously re-tabbed his bulkheads, and completely replaced his main bulkhead because of chain plate rot, and had to replace the infamous "dreaded beam", a galvanized steel hemispheric plate that takes up the downward load of the mast, upward load of the shrouds, and ties them to the hull. So, yes, there's more to Cals than loving them and ignoring what at some point could be a fatally dangerous situation. Happy and safe sailing.. Gerald Sobel, Shpritz, Cal 24 Mk-1, Marina del Rey.

In the folder of paperwork that came with my Cal25-1 there is correspondence between the original owner and Jensen factory indicating that the flex is normal. Kevin Swart Panache Oneida Lake NY On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:14 AM, so… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Hi Maties, > I'm well familiar with keel flex on Cal 25's. I purchased an early model > that had been used as a sailing trainer on a Navy base in San Diego. I'd > picked it up from it's second owner, a sailor that was being transferred > East, from EBay. After scraping the bottom of considerable marine sludge > from a supposedly recently bottom painted boat, we set sail the 106 miles > up to Marina del Rey in late February. I then slipped the boat in the same > marina where I was keeping my original boat, an early Cal 24 Jensen > "Kit-built" boat. I wanted to test my skills sailing a more modern design. > Great boat, roomier interior-way more head room than my Cal24, but with > slightly more free board, not nearly as much fun to sail. Long story short, > I definitely noticed the wiggling "woop-dee-doo" the keel made when riding > over a swell, and it was to me very disconcerting. So, main reason I'm > posting is I remember a fellow who bought a Cal 25 in CA, sailed it down to > the Panama isthmus, had it trucked over to the Atlantic side, and sailed > her up thru the Gulf of Mexico to Florida. By the time he got home after a > lot of hard blue water sailing, he felt the keel-hull joint was destructing > (apparently there are stories of Cal 25's breaking off) and he did > extensive reinforcement to the keel joint and hull using stringers. It > necessitated removing the deck from the hull as I recall. He also built in > a short dog house, and, like Robin Grahm and his Lapworth 24 "Dove", took > off around the world, eventually meeting a woman and birthing two children > en-route. Now, I don't know if the name Clark is correct or not, but, I > know he wrote up his story(s) in one of the major sailing mags, and his > story is pretty well know. ALSO, we have a sailor out of Santa Barbara who > rebuilt his fatiguing keel to hull joint on his Cal 29 after a haul-out > showed dangerous cracking along the joint. It was a major, expensive > project but he so loved the boat that he but the bullet and did it any way. > Interestingly, the boat sailed faster and handled better as a result. You > can look it up on our Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com site. He did a photo > journal of his project. He'd previously re-tabbed his bulkheads, and > completely replaced his main bulkhead because of chain plate rot, and had > to replace the infamous "dreaded beam", a galvanized steel hemispheric > plate that takes up the downward load of the mast, upward load of the > shrouds, and ties them to the hull. So, yes, there's more to Cals than > loving them and ignoring what at some point could be a fatally dangerous > situation. > Happy and safe sailing.. > Gerald Sobel, Shpritz, Cal 24 Mk-1, Marina del Rey. > >

Thank you all for the responses to my inquiry about the keel flexing. We were very concerned and are much relieved!David On Thursday, June 2, 2016 11:51 PM, "Kevin Swart kg… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: In the folder of paperwork that came with my Cal25-1 there is correspondence between the original owner and Jensen factory indicating that the flex is normal. Kevin Swart Panache Oneida Lake NY On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:14 AM, so… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Hi Maties, I'm well familiar with keel flex on Cal 25's. I purchased an early model that had been used as a sailing trainer on a Navy base in San Diego. I'd picked it up from it's second owner, a sailor that was being transferred East, from EBay. After scraping the bottom of considerable marine sludge from a supposedly recently bottom painted boat, we set sail the 106 miles up to Marina del Rey in late February. I then slipped the boat in the same marina where I was keeping my original boat, an early Cal 24 Jensen "Kit-built" boat. I wanted to test my skills sailing a more modern design. Great boat, roomier interior-way more head room than my Cal24, but with slightly more free board, not nearly as much fun to sail. Long story short, I definitely noticed the wiggling "woop-dee-doo" the keel made when riding over a swell, and it was to me very disconcerting. So, main reason I'm posting is I remember a fellow who bought a Cal 25 in CA, sailed it down to the Panama isthmus, had it trucked over to the Atlantic side, and sailed her up thru the Gulf of Mexico to Florida. By the time he got home after a lot of hard blue water sailing, he felt the keel-hull joint was destructing (apparently there are stories of Cal 25's breaking off) and he did extensive reinforcement to the keel joint and hull using stringers. It necessitated removing the deck from the hull as I recall. He also built in a short dog house, and, like Robin Grahm and his Lapworth 24 "Dove", took off around the world, eventually meeting a woman and birthing two children en-route. Now, I don't know if the name Clark is correct or not, but, I know he wrote up his story(s) in one of the major sailing mags, and his story is pretty well know. ALSO, we have a sailor out of Santa Barbara who rebuilt his fatiguing keel to hull joint on his Cal 29 after a haul-out showed dangerous cracking along the joint. It was a major, expensive project but he so loved the boat that he but the bullet and did it any way. Interestingly, the boat sailed faster and handled better as a result. You can look it up on our Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com site. He did a photo journal of his project. He'd previously re-tabbed his bulkheads, and completely replaced his main bulkhead because of chain plate rot, and had to replace the infamous "dreaded beam", a galvanized steel hemispheric plate that takes up the downward load of the mast, upward load of the shrouds, and ties them to the hull. So, yes, there's more to Cals than loving them and ignoring what at some point could be a fatally dangerous situation. Happy and safe sailing.. Gerald Sobel, Shpritz, Cal 24 Mk-1, Marina del Rey.