Re: 1980 Cal 39 MK II rudder bearing or sleeve.

Travis, This "bearing" is nothing more than a fiberglass tube. It tends to wear in an oval pattern. If you want to keep the current bearing arrangement, the easiest and standard fix is to build it out with an epoxy injection. The Cal you mention has grease nipples to help with this problem. Your rudder shaft cannot be overly worn for this to work. Drop rudder. Uses wax or release agent on your shaft. Clean inside of tube, grind as necessary to achieve good bond. This is will take some time. Drill a series of holes around the tube every 2-4" of height Insert shaft, and block it up Mix thickened resin, many people use graphite as a thickening agent (acts as a lubricant) Inject into holes to fill the gap using a small syringe. Let harden Strap a long piece of lumber to your rudder, and twist to break free. Check for binding Drop rudder and grind for greater clearance, if necessary. A drum sander welded to a rod is best. Drill and tap for grease nipples. Use stainless ones. Reinstall rudder. There are several ball bearing products out there as well. Retrofitting them is no small task and they are expensive. However, they provide the lowest friction possible. All the best, Tom Cal 39 Serendipity Crane Island, WA

Thanks Tom The rudder is by no means in poor shape, I think I was seeing about maybe 1/4 '' or less of forward to Aft movement so I figured since I had to drop it I may as well repair or replace the bearing. I will have to look a bit closer at this when I get back to the boat so see what would be involved in repairing. Thank you again for the help. Travis

Travis - I had this done on my boat a couple years ago and if memory serves me (which it is getting more hesitant to do these days) they filled the whole tube with some plastic and then re-bored the hole. It wasn't cheap as the yard had to call in a special contractor to get it the hole bored in the correct alignment. I'm not 100% sure they filled the whole tube but I will find out if you'd like me too. The good news is that it is smooth as silk now and doesn't wobble at all. This was done at Generation III in Cambridge, MD by the way. Paul West Adventure Kwest '80 Cal 39 MK III From: sw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Cal_Boats <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Mon, Aug 22, 2016 12:17 am Subject: [Cal_Boats] Re: 1980 Cal 39 MK II rudder bearing or sleeve. Thanks Tom The rudder is by no means in poor shape, I think I was seeing about maybe 1/4 '' or less of forward to Aft movement so I figured since I had to drop it I may as well repair or replace the bearing. I will have to look a bit closer at this when I get back to the boat so see what would be involved in repairing. Thank you again for the help. Travis

Thanks Paul I think once I get back to the boat I will look into either replacing the tub or fill the void with resin. I also remember there was no grease on the main shaft when I pulled the rudder so there might have been a little play do to lack of graphite grease. Thank you for your input. Travis

I did a full tube replacement since my tube was crap. Tides Marine sold me a new tube and two custom machined UHMWPE tophat shaped bearing sleeves that slipped into the ends of the tube and inside they matched the diameter of the shaft. I "line-bored" the two holes through the boat with hole saws attached to all-thread. I used stacks of round wood plywood discs (cut with the appropriate hole saw) to match the diameter of the existing holes on the all-thread to keep it all centered as I cut. Glue it in with thickened Epoxy and then wrapped multiple "V's" of 6 inch 1708 around the tube and out onto the hull. Wish I'd documented it, would've made a great photo essay. My tube passed all the way through the hull and had a tiller head on top. A larger boat like yours will probably have a partial tube with a bearing attached under the deck. Simpler (and harder) at the same time. Kris From: "sw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: 1980 Cal 39 MK II rudder bearing or sleeve. Thanks Paul I think once I get back to the boat I will look into either replacing the tub or fill the void with resin. I also remember there was no grease on the main shaft when I pulled the rudder so there might have been a little play do to lack of graphite grease. Thank you for your input. Travis

WOW!! You are way more ambitious than I am! Yes, that would have been a great photo essay and valuable to all of us having to deal with it. Paul Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com On Monday, August 22, 2016 Kris Jensen criswak <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: I did a full tube replacement since my tube was crap. Tides Marine sold me a new tube and two custom machined UHMWPE tophat shaped bearing sleeves that slipped into the ends of the tube and inside they matched the diameter of the shaft. I "line-bored" the two holes through the boat with hole saws attached to all-thread. I used stacks of round wood plywood discs (cut with the appropriate hole saw) to match the diameter of the existing holes on the all-thread to keep it all centered as I cut. Glue it in with thickened Epoxy and then wrapped multiple "V's" of 6 inch 1708 around the tube and out onto the hull. Wish I'd documented it, would've made a great photo essay. My tube passed all the way through the hull and had a tiller head on top. A larger boat like yours will probably have a partial tube with a bearing attached under the deck. Simpler (and harder) at the same time. Kris From: "sweepint@y ahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: 1980 Cal 39 MK II rudder bearing or sleeve. Thanks Paul I think once I get back to the boat I will look into either replacing the tub or fill the void with resin. I also remember there was no grease on the main shaft when I pulled the rudder so there might have been a little play do to lack of graphite grease. Thank you for your input. Travis { } hr { } #hd { color: #628c2a; font-weight: 700; } #ads { margin-bottom: 10px;} .ad { } .ad p { } .ad a { color: #0000ff; text-decoration: none;} { } #hd { font-weight: 700; } .ad { margin-bottom: 10px; } #actions { } #activity { background-color: #e0ecee; float: left; } #activity span { font-weight: 700; } #activity span:first-child { text-transform: uppercase; } #activity span a { color: #5085b6; text-decoration: none; } #activity span span { color: #ff7900; } #activity span .underline { text-decoration: underline; } .attach { clear: both; display: table; } .attach div a { text-decoration: none; } .attach img { padding-right: 5px; } .attach label { display: block; margin-bottom: 5px; } .attach label a { text-decoration: none; } blockquote { } .bold { font-weight: 700; } .bold a { text-decoration: none; } dd.last p a { font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span { margin-right: 10px; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span.yshortcuts { margin-right: 0; } div.attach-table div div a { text-decoration: none; } div.attach-table { } div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div p a span.yshortcuts { font-weight: normal; } .green { color: #628c2a; } .MsoNormal { } o { } #photos div { float: left; } #photos div div { height: 62px; } #photos div label { color: #666666; } #reco-category { } #reco-desc { } .replbq { } div a:first-child { margin-right: 2px; padding-right: 5px; } { *font-size: small; *font: x-small; } table { font: 100%; } select, input, textarea { font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif; } pre, code { font:115% monospace; *font-size:100%; } * { } #logo { padding-bottom: 10px; } p a { } p#attach-count span { color: #1E66AE; font-weight: 700; } #reco-head { color: #ff7900; font-weight: 700; } { margin-bottom: 20px; } #ov li a { text-decoration: none; } #ov li { list-style-type: square; } #ov ul { } { } p { } tt { } ul li:last-child { border-right: none !important; }

It wasn't so much ambition as necessity. I was in a small town in Alaska and there wasn't anybody to hire to do the job. I wanted to use my boat so I had to make it up as I went along. It's amazing how useful All-thread is. I had previously replaced/moved all but one of my through-hulls and they were all set with 5200 by PO/Factory. I used the all-thread, chunks of 2X4 and some fender washers to just crank them out with a nut on the all-thread. Lickety split, no problem. The "line-bore" thingy was all-thread the same diameter as the hole saw centering drill. File a little flat spot for the set screw in the hole saw so it spins with the all-thread reliably. Use nuts to position the stacks of plywood circles appropriately in front of or behind the hole saw (depending on if cutting deck or hull) I ground three flats on the end so I could get the drill to clamp very securely on the end. Then stand comfortably in the cockpit while sawing holes in your boat. Can't have more fun than that... Kris From: "pw… [at] aol.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: 1980 Cal 39 MK II rudder bearing or sleeve. WOW!! You are way more ambitious than I am! Yes, that would have been a great photo essay and valuable to all of us having to deal with it. PaulSent from AOL Mobile Mail Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.comOn Monday, August 22, 2016 Kris Jensen criswak <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: I did a full tube replacement since my tube was crap. Tides Marine sold me a new tube and two custom machined UHMWPE tophat shaped bearing sleeves that slipped into the ends of the tube and inside they matched the diameter of the shaft. I "line-bored" the two holes through the boat with hole saws attached to all-thread. I used stacks of round wood plywood discs (cut with the appropriate hole saw) to match the diameter of the existing holes on the all-thread to keep it all centered as I cut. Glue it in with thickened Epoxy and then wrapped multiple "V's" of 6 inch 1708 around the tube and out onto the hull. Wish I'd documented it, would've made a great photo essay. My tube passed all the way through the hull and had a tiller head on top. A larger boat like yours will probably have a partial tube with a bearing attached under the deck. Simpler (and harder) at the same time. Kris From: "sweepint@y ahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: 1980 Cal 39 MK II rudder bearing or sleeve. Thanks Paul I think once I get back to the boat I will look into either replacing the tub or fill the void with resin. I also remember there was no grease on the main shaft when I pulled the rudder so there might have been a little play do to lack of graphite grease. Thank you for your input. Travis

Hi, All. A word of warning on the epoxy fill of the rudder shaft. If the rudder post is in the least dinged, oval-ed, or bent, the epoxy fill could freeze the rudder in place. Had a Cal 25 buddy who did the epoxy thing. Rudder seized up. No sideways, no up, no down. It took us the better part of a day to pound the rudder out of the column. Had to be careful, of course. Someone mentioned putting graphite lube in the shaft. Probably would flatten out too much to fill much of a gap. Someone mentioned that there was no grease in the tube. This could have caused the excessive wear in the shaft. Definitely want some lube. The graphite or maybe lithium grease is good for that. I use sheets of hard plastic (from soda bottles) that wrap almost all the way around the rudder post, and feed them up into the shaft as I reinstall the rudder on my Cal 25. Works quite well, as home grown solutions go. Helps to have a couple extra non-greasy hands to do the feed. The ideal and expensive way to go is to rebuild the shaft with hard iolite bearings at top and bottom. This was done on my Cal 40 before I owned it. A lot of work (as I believe someone in this thread described), but gives a great result. Take Care Charlie From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 9:46 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: 1980 Cal 39 MK II rudder bearing or sleeve. Thanks Paul I think once I get back to the boat I will look into either replacing the tub or fill the void with resin. I also remember there was no grease on the main shaft when I pulled the rudder so there might have been a little play do to lack of graphite grease. Thank you for your input. Travis

I did this on Mariposa many years ago. First step was to polish the rudder post smooth and glossy. Didn’t have the proper tool to check for perfectly round, but it looked unworn to me. Then numerous thick coats of paste wax on the post. Then I drilled holes through the rudder tubes, re-inserted the rudder with the top of the rudder protected by plastic sheeting and inject epoxy with graphite powder mixed in. The next day I was horrified that I couldn’t move the rudder. I had a really scary time getting the rudder pounded out of the boat. Once done, a properly sized and very fine flapper wheel on a cordless drill made the fit perfect. I had to buy a little extension to get the flapper deep enough. No big deal. Has worked like a charm for 16 years with no sign or feel of wear. Back to my dungeon now….. Wilkie > On Aug 22, 2016, at 5:05 PM, 'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > Hi, All. A word of warning on the epoxy fill of the rudder shaft. If the rudder post is in the least dinged, oval-ed, or bent, the epoxy fill could freeze the rudder in place. Had a Cal 25 buddy who did the epoxy thing. Rudder seized up. No sideways, no up, no down. It took us the better part of a day to pound the rudder out of the column. Had to be careful, of course. > > Someone mentioned putting graphite lube in the shaft. Probably would flatten out too much to fill much of a gap. > > Someone mentioned that there was no grease in the tube. This could have caused the excessive wear in the shaft. Definitely want some lube. The graphite or maybe lithium grease is good for that. > > I use sheets of hard plastic (from soda bottles) that wrap almost all the way around the rudder post, and feed them up into the shaft as I reinstall the rudder on my Cal 25. Works quite well, as home grown solutions go. Helps to have a couple extra non-greasy hands to do the feed. > > The ideal and expensive way to go is to rebuild the shaft with hard iolite bearings at top and bottom. This was done on my Cal 40 before I owned it. A lot of work (as I believe someone in this thread described), but gives a great result. > > Take Care > Charlie > > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 9:46 AM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: 1980 Cal 39 MK II rudder bearing or sleeve. > > > > > Thanks Paul > > I think once I get back to the boat I will look into either replacing the tub or fill the void with resin. I also remember there was no grease on the main shaft when I pulled the rudder so there might have been a little play do to lack of graphite grease. > > Thank you for your input. > > Travis > > > > > > > > <image001.jpg><image002.jpg>

Wilkie Just how much movement did you have in the rudder when you decided to do the repair? I am starting to think that I am being a bit overzealous on my decision to get deeper in this than needed. What is the except able amount of play in the Cal 39 rudder? I have not seen more than maybe a 1/8 and less than 1/4 at the very most of movement forward to aft and non from beam to beam. Regards

Hmmm, Lots of thoughts presented here. If no grease you know why the problem is as extensive as it is. 1/4" is a lot. If your shaft is bent/damaged replace the shaft or get a new rudder built. If it has minor pits, this should not be a problem with the epoxy fill method. Use emery paper on any raised minor imperfections and lots of release agent. You can use a long straight edge to check it (and a micrometer for out of round if you want too). I seriously doubt the fiberglass tube has damaged it if it is stainless (without grounding damage) as I have repaired a different boat with a soft Aluminum one with epoxy fill method, which had wear around a couple of hundredths. It still made a fine enough mold for the repair. You use powdered graphite or the powdered white silica for thickening agent, or a combination. This is covered in the West System epoxy book. It is a good way to go. It makes a non-compressible bearing surface. Another method is to line bore your tube and put in a HDPE tube. This tube will probably have to be machined to fit and the line bore tool will probably be custom made. As a result, I won't go into the details of how to fabricate all this. But it is a standard fix in boat yards all over. Shims can work for small issues, but for the size of the issue I think you will be better off fixing it a better way. PET is pretty good stuff for this application. Think about how your grease is going to get in between all the layers. Larger boats, larger forces and bigger wear problems. That is why on smaller boats the issue is much less. Either ball bearings or HDPE tube would be an upgrade on the ordinal friction tube. All the best, Tom Cal 39