Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33 - exhaust submerging

Thanks for the response. I sail in the Gulf and ICW around Port Aransas, TX. I have observed the same "squatting" under sail only (she seems to approach hull speed much more quickly than my former Catalina 30). Being on port tack lessens my anxiety. No leaks evident around the exhaust port. My big concern was salt water being siphoned back up the exhaust hose. Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone From: "Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: 11/14/16 10:02 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33 - exhaust submerging Claude, welcome to the group! Yes, this is typical of this model. The only negative I am aware of is the possible leak at the exhaust fitting at the hull. Leakage would drain into the engine bilge area. Solution? Slow down. Motoring at hull speed burns more fuel. Motor sail. With the main up (reeled as prudent) the added drive force helps lessen the squat. Heeling will lift that side on a port tack. Down wind with the headsail will keep the bow up and prevent plowing in to the back of waves. Sails will add a knot or two with less engine thrust. We changed to a three blade prop several years ago. Better thrust in heavy seas, better response in reverse, and I do not notice the squat when motoring. Where do you sail? John RaxterCal 33Oriental NC On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: New member of the group. Purchased a 1988 Cal 33 last year (hull #788) and still getting to know her. I have noticed that as she approaches hull speed, the stern really "squats" as the bow climbs the bow wave and the exhaust goes partially below the water. I have moved as much weight as I can out of the port lazarette and aft berth, but not easy since I live aboard. My questions: 1) is this typical for Cal 33's and inconsequential or do I need to continue trying to shift weight toward the bow? 2) what might be the adverse consequences of submerging the exhaust relative to the heat exchanger, mixing elbow, etc.? Thanks in advance for your insight. Claude

Oh, under sail. Well, if you have crawled back into the stern area you will notice the exhaust hose goes up high and then down to form a goose neck as I remember. Don't think siphoning is a worry. I was back there after purchasing our boat and also noticed a grease fitting on the rudder shaft housing. Went ahead and hit that with some grease with my grease gun. And adjusted the wheel cabling. Things I figured someone didn't inspect very often. Leslie On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 3:56 PM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Thanks for the response. I sail in the Gulf and ICW around Port Aransas, > TX. I have observed the same "squatting" under sail only (she seems to > approach hull speed much more quickly than my former Catalina 30). Being on > port tack lessens my anxiety. No leaks evident around the exhaust port. My > big concern was salt water being siphoned back up the exhaust hose. > > > > Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats]" < > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Date: 11/14/16 10:02 AM (GMT-06:00) > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33 - exhaust submerging > > > > Claude, welcome to the group! > > Yes, this is typical of this model. > The only negative I am aware of is the possible leak at the exhaust > fitting at the hull. Leakage would drain into the engine bilge area. > > Solution? > Slow down. Motoring at hull speed burns more fuel. > > Motor sail. With the main up (reeled as prudent) the added drive force > helps lessen the squat. Heeling will lift that side on a port tack. Down > wind with the headsail will keep the bow up and prevent plowing in to the > back of waves. Sails will add a knot or two with less engine thrust. > > We changed to a three blade prop several years ago. Better thrust in heavy > seas, better response in reverse, and I do not notice the squat when > motoring. > > Where do you sail? > > John Raxter > Cal 33 > Oriental NC > > On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] > <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > New member of the group. Purchased a 1988 Cal 33 last year (hull #788) and > still getting to know her. I have noticed that as she approaches hull > speed, the stern really "squats" as the bow climbs the bow wave and the > exhaust goes partially below the water. I have moved as much weight as I > can out of the port lazarette and aft berth, but not easy since I live > aboard. > My questions: > 1) is this typical for Cal 33's and inconsequential or do I need to > continue trying to shift weight toward the bow? > 2) what might be the adverse consequences of submerging the exhaust > relative to the heat exchanger, mixing elbow, etc.? > > Thanks in advance for your insight. > > Claude > > >

Thanks, Leslie. I do have some curve in the exhaust hose, but it was basically lying horizontal on the hull. Have jammed a fender under the loop temporarily to elevate it above waterline until I can figure out a more permanent way to hold the loop vertical. Did not notice the grease fitting on rudder post, will look for it - thanks for the heads up on that. -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 11/14/16, NEWMAN d2… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33 - exhaust submerging To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, "Claude Roberts" <uw… [at] yahoo.com> Cc: "Jraxter" <jr… [at] triad.rr.com> Date: Monday, November 14, 2016, 3:12 PM Oh, under sail. Well, if you have crawled back into the stern area you will notice the exhaust hose goes up high and then down to form a goose neck as I remember. Don't think siphoning is a worry. I was back there after purchasing our boat and also noticed a grease fitting on the rudder shaft housing. Went ahead and hit that with some grease with my grease gun. And adjusted the wheel cabling. Things I figured someone didn't inspect very often.Leslie On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 3:56 PM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Thanks for the response. I sail in the Gulf and ICW around Port Aransas, TX. I have observed the same "squatting" under sail only (she seems to approach hull speed much more quickly than my former Catalina 30). Being on port tack lessens my anxiety. No leaks evident around the exhaust port. My big concern was salt water being siphoned back up the exhaust hose. Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: "Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: 11/14/16 10:02 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33 - exhaust submerging Claude, welcome to the group! Yes, this is typical of this model. The only negative I am aware of is the possible leak at the exhaust fitting at the hull. Leakage would drain into the engine bilge area. Solution? Slow down. Motoring at hull speed burns more fuel. Motor sail. With the main up (reeled as prudent) the added drive force helps lessen the squat. Heeling will lift that side on a port tack. Down wind with the headsail will keep the bow up and prevent plowing in to the back of waves. Sails will add a knot or two with less engine thrust. We changed to a three blade prop several years ago. Better thrust in heavy seas, better response in reverse, and I do not notice the squat when motoring. Where do you sail? John RaxterCal 33Oriental NC On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: New member of the group. Purchased a 1988 Cal 33 last year (hull #788) and still getting to know her. I have noticed that as she approaches hull speed, the stern really "squats" as the bow climbs the bow wave and the exhaust goes partially below the water. I have moved as much weight as I can out of the port lazarette and aft berth, but not easy since I live aboard. My questions: 1) is this typical for Cal 33's and inconsequential or do I need to continue trying to shift weight toward the bow? 2) what might be the adverse consequences of submerging the exhaust relative to the heat exchanger, mixing elbow, etc.? Thanks in advance for your insight. Claude

ABYC says this - The exhaust thru hull must not be submerged during the normal operation of the boat. When we repower old boats, we strive to update the exhaust system to the latest standards. This is to ensure that raw water can NEVER flow towards the engine, and enter the cylinders. Obviously, this situation would lead to a VERY EXPENSIVE engine repair. We recently sold a new generator that was installed in a 40' raceboat. The installer never bothered to investigate the correct exhaust system design. 2 months later, the engine's cylinder was discovered to be full of raw water. The boat owner is now faced with a major engine rebuild, or engine replacement. *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * On 11/14/16 3:56 PM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > Thanks for the response. I sail in the Gulf and ICW around Port > Aransas, TX. I have observed the same "squatting" under sail only (she > seems to approach hull speed much more quickly than my former > Catalina 30). Being on port tack lessens my anxiety. No leaks evident > around the exhaust port. My big concern was salt water being siphoned > back up the exhaust hose. > > > > Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats]" > <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Date: 11/14/16 10:02 AM (GMT-06:00) > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33 - exhaust submerging > > Claude, welcome to the group! > > Yes, this is typical of this model. > The only negative I am aware of is the possible leak at the exhaust > fitting at the hull. Leakage would drain into the engine bilge area. > > Solution? > Slow down. Motoring at hull speed burns more fuel. > > Motor sail. With the main up (reeled as prudent) the added drive force > helps lessen the squat. Heeling will lift that side on a port tack. > Down wind with the headsail will keep the bow up and prevent plowing > in to the back of waves. Sails will add a knot or two with less engine > thrust. > > We changed to a three blade prop several years ago. Better thrust in > heavy seas, better response in reverse, and I do not notice the squat > when motoring. > > Where do you sail? > > John Raxter > Cal 33 > Oriental NC > > On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com > <mailto:uw… [at] yahoo.com> [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> wrote: > > New member of the group. Purchased a 1988 Cal 33 last year (hull #788) > and still getting to know her. I have noticed that as she approaches > hull speed, the stern really "squats" as the bow climbs the bow wave > and the exhaust goes partially below the water. I have moved as much > weight as I can out of the port lazarette and aft berth, but not easy > since I live aboard. > My questions: > 1) is this typical for Cal 33's and inconsequential or do I need to > continue trying to shift weight toward the bow? > 2) what might be the adverse consequences of submerging the exhaust > relative to the heat exchanger, mixing elbow, etc.? > > Thanks in advance for your insight. > > Claude > > > > -- *Joe DeMers - owner* Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & fax (860) 666-2184*

To provide an informed response, we really need to know what the entire system looks like from the Exhaust Manifold to the through-hull, and where all of that is in relation to the waterline (flat, heeled, and squatting) On my Cruising 35 with the bass-ackwards engine, the previous owner redesigned the exhaust with a real belt and suspenders arrangement. Half of that occurs inside the engine space so is not visible from the lazzerette area. I could run the exhaust straight out the transom from the waterlock and theoretically have no trouble. Anyone familiar with boat exhausts would panic at the sight of that if they weren't aware of the arrangement on the front (back?) of the engine. Under the bridge-deck, there is an 18" dry riser with the injection elbow at the top. It's close to two feet above the water line at all times. Also the water injection tap for the dripless shaft seal is up there as well and provides a path for water to drain back to the waterline from the injection elbow. If the OP has such an arrangement there is virtually no way that water will come back through the waterlock to the engine or rise to the level of the injection elbow. Adding a riser aft of the waterlock, while it can help provide peace of mind with respect to water backing up, can cause problems if it's higher than the injection port on the engine. We all know that in an over-crank situation (no-start, bleeding injectors, etc) that the raw water pump is busy filling our exhaust system with water but the lack of actual exhaust is not pushing it out the transom effectively. If it fills up to the level of the injection elbow, it can flow back into the engine. However this cannot occur if everything in the exhaust after the injection elbow is lower. The excess water will just flow out the transom. Whatever point the water would drain (out the transom) if you're filling from the injection elbow is important. I'll call this the Spill-Over point. If I knew there was a foot of vertical drop between my injection elbow and the Spill-Over point then I'd crank to my hearts content and never worry about water filling up my engine. If there wasn't much distance or the Spill-Over was above the injection elbow, then you have to be very watchful of over-crank situations because the injection elbow can become the Spill-Over point. Mine has an additional goose-neck riser after the waterlock and its spill-over is higher than the injection elbow. It goes up into the aft cockpit coaming so there is no possibility of a following sea pushing in. Theoretically the tap for the dripless shaft seal should drain any water to below the level of the tap in an over-crank situation but I don't know if the flow of the raw water pump during cranking can exceed the tap's ability to drain it away, so if I'm cranking for a while, I close the raw water valve until the engine fires. If the OP's boat has sufficient risers, etc before the waterlock, then poking a fender under the exhaust hose just raises the spill-over point and does almost nothing to lessen the chances of a suction issue pulling water back from a submerged exhaust. Of course, raising the exhaust port on the transom can help but also raises the spill-over point so must be done mindfully. There is virtually no possibility of water backing up when the engine is running. (think of walking Up the Down escalator) Also very low probability while you are sailing. It's the shutdown where folks can run into problems. A friends C & C 33 with an Atomic 4 had just a constantly sloping muffler and hose to the transom. Exhaust was generally above the waterline while motoring and sailing however he went through three head gaskets after he started Club Racing before he figured out what was going on. Typical day-sailing only used a few lines, minimal crew, etc. Club Racing meant there were multiple sheets, guys, twings, and 7 extra two hundred pound dudes on board. All of whom would end up standing in the vicinity of the cockpit coiling lines at the end of the day. After docking, the skipper would let the engine cool down for a bit, then shut it down. With 7 dudes plus him in the aft end of the boat, the exhaust was below the waterline and when the engine spun down, it would bounce off the compression and spin backwards just enough to hiccup a bit of water back into the engine. Paying attention to whether the exhaust was submerged when he shut it off solved that for him without changing his spill-over characteristics. Exhaust port submerging while at speed is really fairly common and in most cases shouldn't cause a problem (as long as you are mindful of your exhaust characteristics and the ramifications of those) but as I said before, we'd really need to know what the whole arrangement is to give you usable opinions on yours. I suppose what this "Book" points out is that exhaust system design (or re-design) requires careful thought, an understanding of basic physics, ability to comprehend and visualize spatial relationships, (what is this going to look like heeled 30 degrees to starboard? Now Port?), cause and effect analysis, (if I make a change to solve one problem, what new potential problem am I introducing?) tempered with the experience of dealing with the results of failures to get it right the first time. So I guess what I'm saying in closing, is if you think it might not be right, ask somebody like Joe, or Tom, they'll know if it's an issue or not... Kris From: "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 6:33 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] engine distruction - was Cal 33 - exhaust submerging ABYC says this - The exhaust thru hull must not be submerged during the normal operation of the boat. When we repower old boats, we strive to update the exhaust system to the latest standards. This is to ensure that raw water can NEVER flow towards the engine, and enter the cylinders. Obviously, this situation would lead to a VERY EXPENSIVE engine repair. We recently sold a new generator that was installed in a 40' raceboat. The installer never bothered to investigate the correct exhaust system design. 2 months later, the engine's cylinder was discovered to be full of raw water. The boat owner is now faced with a major engine rebuild, or engine replacement. Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 11/14/16 3:56 PM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: Thanks for the response. I sail in the Gulf and ICW around Port Aransas, TX. I have observed the same "squatting" under sail only (she seems to approach hull speed much more quickly than my former Catalina 30). Being on port tack lessens my anxiety. No leaks evident around the exhaust port. My big concern was salt water being siphoned back up the exhaust hose. Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: "Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: 11/14/16 10:02 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33 - exhaust submerging Claude, welcome to the group! Yes, this is typical of this model. The only negative I am aware of is the possible leak at the exhaust fitting at the hull. Leakage would drain into the engine bilge area. Solution? Slow down. Motoring at hull speed burns more fuel. Motor sail. With the main up (reeled as prudent) the added drive force helps lessen the squat. Heeling will lift that side on a port tack. Down wind with the headsail will keep the bow up and prevent plowing in to the back of waves. Sails will add a knot or two with less engine thrust. We changed to a three blade prop several years ago. Better thrust in heavy seas, better response in reverse, and I do not notice the squat when motoring. Where do you sail? John Raxter Cal 33 Oriental NC On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: New member of the group. Purchased a 1988 Cal 33 last year (hull #788) and still getting to know her. I have noticed that as she approaches hull speed, the stern really "squats" as the bow climbs the bow wave and the exhaust goes partially below the water. I have moved as much weight as I can out of the port lazarette and aft berth, but not easy since I live aboard. My questions: 1) is this typical for Cal 33's and inconsequential or do I need to continue trying to shift weight toward the bow? 2) what might be the adverse consequences of submerging the exhaust relative to the heat exchanger, mixing elbow, etc.? Thanks in advance for your insight. Claude -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.comphone & fax (860) 666-2184 -- {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} {margin-bottom:10px;} .yiv7647501853ad {padding:0 0;} .yiv7647501853ad p {margin:0;} .yiv7647501853ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} {font-family:Arial;} {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} .yiv7647501853ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;} {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;} span {font-weight:700;} span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;} span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;} span span {color:#ff7900;} span .yiv7647501853underline {text-decoration:underline;} .yiv7647501853attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;} .yiv7647501853attach div a {text-decoration:none;} .yiv7647501853attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;} .yiv7647501853attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;} .yiv7647501853attach label a {text-decoration:none;} blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;} .yiv7647501853bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;} .yiv7647501853bold a {text-decoration:none;} dd.yiv7647501853last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} dd.yiv7647501853last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;} dd.yiv7647501853last p span.yiv7647501853yshortcuts {margin-right:0;} div.yiv7647501853attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;} div.yiv7647501853attach-table {width:400px;} div.yiv7647501853file-title a, div.yiv7647501853file-title a:active, div.yiv7647501853file-title a:hover, div.yiv7647501853file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;} div.yiv7647501853photo-title a, div.yiv7647501853photo-title a:active, div.yiv7647501853photo-title a:hover, div.yiv7647501853photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;} div p a span.yiv7647501853yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;} .yiv7647501853green {color:#628c2a;} .yiv7647501853MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;} o {font-size:0;} div {float:left;width:72px;} div div {border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;} div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;} {font-size:77%;} {font-size:77%;} .yiv7647501853replbq {margin:4px;} div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;} {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} select, input, textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} pre, code {font:115% monospace;} * {line-height:1.22em;} {padding-bottom:10px;} p a {font-family:Verdana;} p span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;} {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;} {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;} li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;} li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;} ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;} {font-family:Georgia;} p {margin:0 0 1em 0;} tt {font-size:120%;} ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}

All I know is my Cal 33 is 30 years old and the engine functions flawlessly. I have motored and sailed many hours without issue. I remember when I was very young an old mechanic telling me something after I had mucked around with something and screwed it up..."If it ain't broke, don't fix it!". So mine stays like it is. Leslie Puffin On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Kris Jensen cr… [at] att.net [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > To provide an informed response, we really need to know what the entire > system looks like from the Exhaust Manifold to the through-hull, and where > all of that is in relation to the waterline (flat, heeled, and squatting) > > On my Cruising 35 with the bass-ackwards engine, the previous owner > redesigned the exhaust with a real belt and suspenders arrangement. Half > of that occurs inside the engine space so is not visible from the > lazzerette area. I could run the exhaust straight out the transom from the > waterlock and theoretically have no trouble. Anyone familiar with boat > exhausts would panic at the sight of that if they weren't aware of the > arrangement on the front (back?) of the engine. Under the bridge-deck, > there is an 18" dry riser with the injection elbow at the top. It's close > to two feet above the water line at all times. Also the water injection > tap for the dripless shaft seal is up there as well and provides a path for > water to drain back to the waterline from the injection elbow. > > If the OP has such an arrangement there is virtually no way that water > will come back through the waterlock to the engine or rise to the level of > the injection elbow. Adding a riser aft of the waterlock, while it can > help provide peace of mind with respect to water backing up, can cause > problems if it's higher than the injection port on the engine. > > We all know that in an over-crank situation (no-start, bleeding injectors, > etc) that the raw water pump is busy filling our exhaust system with water > but the lack of actual exhaust is not pushing it out the transom > effectively. If it fills up to the level of the injection elbow, it can > flow back into the engine. However this cannot occur if everything in the > exhaust after the injection elbow is lower. The excess water will just > flow out the transom. Whatever point the water would drain (out the > transom) if you're filling from the injection elbow is important. I'll > call this the Spill-Over point. If I knew there was a foot of vertical > drop between my injection elbow and the Spill-Over point then I'd crank to > my hearts content and never worry about water filling up my engine. If > there wasn't much distance or the Spill-Over was above the injection elbow, > then you have to be very watchful of over-crank situations because the > injection elbow can become the Spill-Over point. > > Mine has an additional goose-neck riser after the waterlock and its > spill-over is higher than the injection elbow. It goes up into the aft > cockpit coaming so there is no possibility of a following sea pushing in. > Theoretically the tap for the dripless shaft seal should drain any water to > below the level of the tap in an over-crank situation but I don't know if > the flow of the raw water pump during cranking can exceed the tap's ability > to drain it away, so if I'm cranking for a while, I close the raw water > valve until the engine fires. > > If the OP's boat has sufficient risers, etc before the waterlock, then > poking a fender under the exhaust hose just raises the spill-over point and > does almost nothing to lessen the chances of a suction issue pulling water > back from a submerged exhaust. Of course, raising the exhaust port on the > transom can help but also raises the spill-over point so must be done > mindfully. > > There is virtually no possibility of water backing up when the engine is > running. (think of walking Up the Down escalator) Also very low > probability while you are sailing. It's the shutdown where folks can run > into problems. A friends C & C 33 with an Atomic 4 had just a constantly > sloping muffler and hose to the transom. Exhaust was generally above the > waterline while motoring and sailing however he went through three head > gaskets after he started Club Racing before he figured out what was going > on. Typical day-sailing only used a few lines, minimal crew, etc. Club > Racing meant there were multiple sheets, guys, twings, and 7 extra two > hundred pound dudes on board. All of whom would end up standing in the > vicinity of the cockpit coiling lines at the end of the day. After > docking, the skipper would let the engine cool down for a bit, then shut it > down. With 7 dudes plus him in the aft end of the boat, the exhaust was > below the waterline and when the engine spun down, it would bounce off the > compression and spin backwards just enough to hiccup a bit of water back > into the engine. Paying attention to whether the exhaust was submerged > when he shut it off solved that for him without changing his spill-over > characteristics. > > Exhaust port submerging while at speed is really fairly common and in most > cases shouldn't cause a problem (as long as you are mindful of your exhaust > characteristics and the ramifications of those) but as I said before, we'd > really need to know what the whole arrangement is to give you usable > opinions on yours. > > I suppose what this "Book" points out is that exhaust system design (or > re-design) requires careful thought, an understanding of basic physics, > ability to comprehend and visualize spatial relationships, (what is this > going to look like heeled 30 degrees to starboard? Now Port?), cause and > effect analysis, (if I make a change to solve one problem, what new > potential problem am I introducing?) tempered with the experience of > dealing with the results of failures to get it right the first time. > > So I guess what I'm saying in closing, is if you think it might not be > right, ask somebody like Joe, or Tom, they'll know if it's an issue or > not... > > Kris > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com [Cal_Boats]" < > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2016 6:33 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] engine distruction - was Cal 33 - exhaust > submerging > > > ABYC says this - The exhaust thru hull must not be submerged during the > normal operation of the boat. > When we repower old boats, we strive to update the exhaust system to the > latest standards. This is to ensure that raw water can NEVER flow towards > the engine, and enter the cylinders. Obviously, this situation would lead > to a VERY EXPENSIVE engine repair. > We recently sold a new generator that was installed in a 40' raceboat. > The installer never bothered to investigate the correct exhaust system > design. 2 months later, the engine's cylinder was discovered to be full of > raw water. The boat owner is now faced with a major engine rebuild, or > engine replacement. > *Joe DeMers - owner* > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 <%28860%29%20666-2184> * > On 11/14/16 3:56 PM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > Thanks for the response. I sail in the Gulf and ICW around Port Aransas, > TX. I have observed the same "squatting" under sail only (she seems to > approach hull speed much more quickly than my former Catalina 30). Being on > port tack lessens my anxiety. No leaks evident around the exhaust port. My > big concern was salt water being siphoned back up the exhaust hose. > > > > Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats]" > <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Date: 11/14/16 10:02 AM (GMT-06:00) > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> > <uw… [at] yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33 - exhaust submerging > > > Claude, welcome to the group! > > Yes, this is typical of this model. > The only negative I am aware of is the possible leak at the exhaust > fitting at the hull. Leakage would drain into the engine bilge area. > > Solution? > Slow down. Motoring at hull speed burns more fuel. > > Motor sail. With the main up (reeled as prudent) the added drive force > helps lessen the squat. Heeling will lift that side on a port tack. Down > wind with the headsail will keep the bow up and prevent plowing in to the > back of waves. Sails will add a knot or two with less engine thrust. > > We changed to a three blade prop several years ago. Better thrust in heavy > seas, better response in reverse, and I do not notice the squat when > motoring. > > Where do you sail? > > John Raxter > Cal 33 > Oriental NC > > On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] > <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > New member of the group. Purchased a 1988 Cal 33 last year (hull #788) and > still getting to know her. I have noticed that as she approaches hull > speed, the stern really "squats" as the bow climbs the bow wave and the > exhaust goes partially below the water. I have moved as much weight as I > can out of the port lazarette and aft berth, but not easy since I live > aboard. > My questions: > 1) is this typical for Cal 33's and inconsequential or do I need to > continue trying to shift weight toward the bow? > 2) what might be the adverse consequences of submerging the exhaust > relative to the heat exchanger, mixing elbow, etc.? > > Thanks in advance for your insight. > > Claude > > > -- > *Joe DeMers - owner* > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & fax > (860) 666-2184 <%28860%29%20666-2184>* > > > >

I hear ya. I have enough to do on my own boat without fixing everybody else's too. My engine is 43 years old and has a newer head, injector pump and has had several alternators, starters, and lift pumps. Everything in the blocks is original. No one knows how many hours are on this engine. It is on it's 6th or 7th exhaust system. It is generally one the most abused, least robust portion of the engine installation. Most everything else is made of iron, steel, or aluminum and is bolted together. The exhaust is rubber, plastic, and hose clamps... I sincerely hope your exhaust isn't 30 years old! I would have to predict that your engine has COPD and would be running on borrowed time if that were the case. My last one made it 9 years (well actually it didn't, it was toast at about 7 but I didn't figure it out until 9) The previous owner ran his first one for 8 years and had a failure due to corrosion. After that, he changed everything from the manifold back (with the exception of the waterlock) to the transom every 5 years. When he pulled the set at 5 years he said they were still very usable but certainly he would never consider putting them back on. I ran his last set for 9 and when I pulled it apart I discovered why the engine was over heating. (in addition to the partly clogged heat exchanger) the hard portion of the pipe below the exhaust elbow was coked up so bad there was only about a 7/8's inch hole to get the exhaust (and cooling water) out into the 2 inch hose! At cruise RPM the engine was probably using 10-15 hp just trying to stuff its own exhaust out through that tiny hole. No problem at 1800 RPM, but try running at 2400 and the temp just slowly crept up and up. Now with a clean heat exchanger, and fresh exhaust, I made several 5-7 hour runs at 2500 RPM with the temp gauge sitting on 196 all day. My 9 year old wire reinforced hose had cracking in the outer surface and in spots had broken through from the inside to the wire and began to rust it. It was definitely time. Vetus waterlock had about an inch of rust flakes and other sediment in it. Nothing wrong with it otherwise. Exhaust needs attention just like the rest of the boat. The point I'd like to make with your "if it ain't broke don't fix it" comment tho is, it's fairly likely that the guy who designed/built these boats all those years ago was sharp enough to build a safe and trouble free exhaust system. However unless you are the original owner, you have no idea how many fools have worked on it between then and now. Again I'll refer you back to Joe and Tom if you want to know how many and how often fools do "professional" work on boats. ( i bet you guys have some stories...) That reminds me, do we have a boat work "there I was..." thread? Those stories should be captured for posterity. Good Luck, Kris From: NEWMAN <d2… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; Kris Jensen <cr… [at] att.net> Cc: Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] engine distruction - was Cal 33 - exhaust submerging All I know is my Cal 33 is 30 years old and the engine functions flawlessly. I have motored and sailed many hours without issue. I remember when I was very young an old mechanic telling me something after I had mucked around with something and screwed it up..."If it ain't broke, don't fix it!". So mine stays like it is. LesliePuffin On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Kris Jensen cr… [at] att.net [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: To provide an informed response, we really need to know what the entire system looks like from the Exhaust Manifold to the through-hull, and where all of that is in relation to the waterline (flat, heeled, and squatting) On my Cruising 35 with the bass-ackwards engine, the previous owner redesigned the exhaust with a real belt and suspenders arrangement. Half of that occurs inside the engine space so is not visible from the lazzerette area. I could run the exhaust straight out the transom from the waterlock and theoretically have no trouble. Anyone familiar with boat exhausts would panic at the sight of that if they weren't aware of the arrangement on the front (back?) of the engine. Under the bridge-deck, there is an 18" dry riser with the injection elbow at the top. It's close to two feet above the water line at all times. Also the water injection tap for the dripless shaft seal is up there as well and provides a path for water to drain back to the waterline from the injection elbow. If the OP has such an arrangement there is virtually no way that water will come back through the waterlock to the engine or rise to the level of the injection elbow. Adding a riser aft of the waterlock, while it can help provide peace of mind with respect to water backing up, can cause problems if it's higher than the injection port on the engine. We all know that in an over-crank situation (no-start, bleeding injectors, etc) that the raw water pump is busy filling our exhaust system with water but the lack of actual exhaust is not pushing it out the transom effectively. If it fills up to the level of the injection elbow, it can flow back into the engine. However this cannot occur if everything in the exhaust after the injection elbow is lower. The excess water will just flow out the transom. Whatever point the water would drain (out the transom) if you're filling from the injection elbow is important. I'll call this the Spill-Over point. If I knew there was a foot of vertical drop between my injection elbow and the Spill-Over point then I'd crank to my hearts content and never worry about water filling up my engine. If there wasn't much distance or the Spill-Over was above the injection elbow, then you have to be very watchful of over-crank situations because the injection elbow can become the Spill-Over point. Mine has an additional goose-neck riser after the waterlock and its spill-over is higher than the injection elbow. It goes up into the aft cockpit coaming so there is no possibility of a following sea pushing in. Theoretically the tap for the dripless shaft seal should drain any water to below the level of the tap in an over-crank situation but I don't know if the flow of the raw water pump during cranking can exceed the tap's ability to drain it away, so if I'm cranking for a while, I close the raw water valve until the engine fires. If the OP's boat has sufficient risers, etc before the waterlock, then poking a fender under the exhaust hose just raises the spill-over point and does almost nothing to lessen the chances of a suction issue pulling water back from a submerged exhaust. Of course, raising the exhaust port on the transom can help but also raises the spill-over point so must be done mindfully. There is virtually no possibility of water backing up when the engine is running. (think of walking Up the Down escalator) Also very low probability while you are sailing. It's the shutdown where folks can run into problems. A friends C & C 33 with an Atomic 4 had just a constantly sloping muffler and hose to the transom. Exhaust was generally above the waterline while motoring and sailing however he went through three head gaskets after he started Club Racing before he figured out what was going on. Typical day-sailing only used a few lines, minimal crew, etc. Club Racing meant there were multiple sheets, guys, twings, and 7 extra two hundred pound dudes on board. All of whom would end up standing in the vicinity of the cockpit coiling lines at the end of the day. After docking, the skipper would let the engine cool down for a bit, then shut it down. With 7 dudes plus him in the aft end of the boat, the exhaust was below the waterline and when the engine spun down, it would bounce off the compression and spin backwards just enough to hiccup a bit of water back into the engine. Paying attention to whether the exhaust was submerged when he shut it off solved that for him without changing his spill-over characteristics. Exhaust port submerging while at speed is really fairly common and in most cases shouldn't cause a problem (as long as you are mindful of your exhaust characteristics and the ramifications of those) but as I said before, we'd really need to know what the whole arrangement is to give you usable opinions on yours. I suppose what this "Book" points out is that exhaust system design (or re-design) requires careful thought, an understanding of basic physics, ability to comprehend and visualize spatial relationships, (what is this going to look like heeled 30 degrees to starboard? Now Port?), cause and effect analysis, (if I make a change to solve one problem, what new potential problem am I introducing?) tempered with the experience of dealing with the results of failures to get it right the first time. So I guess what I'm saying in closing, is if you think it might not be right, ask somebody like Joe, or Tom, they'll know if it's an issue or not... Kris From: "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 6:33 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] engine distruction - was Cal 33 - exhaust submerging ABYC says this - The exhaust thru hull must not be submerged during the normal operation of the boat. When we repower old boats, we strive to update the exhaust system to the latest standards. This is to ensure that raw water can NEVER flow towards the engine, and enter the cylinders. Obviously, this situation would lead to a VERY EXPENSIVE engine repair. We recently sold a new generator that was installed in a 40' raceboat. The installer never bothered to investigate the correct exhaust system design. 2 months later, the engine's cylinder was discovered to be full of raw water. The boat owner is now faced with a major engine rebuild, or engine replacement. Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 11/14/16 3:56 PM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: Thanks for the response. I sail in the Gulf and ICW around Port Aransas, TX. I have observed the same "squatting" under sail only (she seems to approach hull speed much more quickly than my former Catalina 30). Being on port tack lessens my anxiety. No leaks evident around the exhaust port. My big concern was salt water being siphoned back up the exhaust hose. Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: "Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: 11/14/16 10:02 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33 - exhaust submerging Claude, welcome to the group! Yes, this is typical of this model. The only negative I am aware of is the possible leak at the exhaust fitting at the hull. Leakage would drain into the engine bilge area. Solution? Slow down. Motoring at hull speed burns more fuel. Motor sail. With the main up (reeled as prudent) the added drive force helps lessen the squat. Heeling will lift that side on a port tack. Down wind with the headsail will keep the bow up and prevent plowing in to the back of waves. Sails will add a knot or two with less engine thrust. We changed to a three blade prop several years ago. Better thrust in heavy seas, better response in reverse, and I do not notice the squat when motoring. Where do you sail? John Raxter Cal 33 Oriental NC On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: New member of the group. Purchased a 1988 Cal 33 last year (hull #788) and still getting to know her. I have noticed that as she approaches hull speed, the stern really "squats" as the bow climbs the bow wave and the exhaust goes partially below the water. I have moved as much weight as I can out of the port lazarette and aft berth, but not easy since I live aboard. My questions: 1) is this typical for Cal 33's and inconsequential or do I need to continue trying to shift weight toward the bow? 2) what might be the adverse consequences of submerging the exhaust relative to the heat exchanger, mixing elbow, etc.? Thanks in advance for your insight. Claude -- Joe DeMers - owner Sound Marine Diesel LLC SoundMarineDiesel.comphone & fax (860) 666-2184

Kris, TMI. I just meant I am not changing my exhaust design. It works fine. The components are not all original. I monitor all of my equipment and maintain them. My 1949 caterpillar D2, 1955 D2, 1977 FJ40, 1973 Ford Bronco, 1939 Ford 9N, 1953 Farmall Super A, and my 1986 Yanmar diesel. Leslie On Tuesday, November 15, 2016, Kris Jensen <cr… [at] att.net> wrote: > I hear ya. I have enough to do on my own boat without fixing everybody > else's too. > > My engine is 43 years old and has a newer head, injector pump and has had > several alternators, starters, and lift pumps. Everything in the blocks is > original. No one knows how many hours are on this engine. It is on it's > 6th or 7th exhaust system. It is generally one the most abused, least > robust portion of the engine installation. Most everything else is made of > iron, steel, or aluminum and is bolted together. The exhaust is rubber, > plastic, and hose clamps... > > I sincerely hope your exhaust isn't 30 years old! I would have to predict > that your engine has COPD and would be running on borrowed time if that > were the case. > > My last one made it 9 years (well actually it didn't, it was toast at > about 7 but I didn't figure it out until 9) The previous owner ran his > first one for 8 years and had a failure due to corrosion. After that, he > changed everything from the manifold back (with the exception of the > waterlock) to the transom every 5 years. When he pulled the set at 5 years > he said they were still very usable but certainly he would never consider > putting them back on. I ran his last set for 9 and when I pulled it apart > I discovered why the engine was over heating. (in addition to the partly > clogged heat exchanger) the hard portion of the pipe below the exhaust > elbow was coked up so bad there was only about a 7/8's inch hole to get the > exhaust (and cooling water) out into the 2 inch hose! At cruise RPM the > engine was probably using 10-15 hp just trying to stuff its own exhaust out > through that tiny hole. No problem at 1800 RPM, but try running at 2400 > and the temp just slowly crept up and up. Now with a clean heat exchanger, > and fresh exhaust, I made several 5-7 hour runs at 2500 RPM with the temp > gauge sitting on 196 all day. > > My 9 year old wire reinforced hose had cracking in the outer surface and > in spots had broken through from the inside to the wire and began to rust > it. It was definitely time. Vetus waterlock had about an inch of rust > flakes and other sediment in it. Nothing wrong with it otherwise. > > Exhaust needs attention just like the rest of the boat. > > The point I'd like to make with your "if it ain't broke don't fix it" > comment tho is, it's fairly likely that the guy who designed/built these > boats all those years ago was sharp enough to build a safe and trouble free > exhaust system. However unless you are the original owner, you have no > idea how many fools have worked on it between then and now. > > Again I'll refer you back to Joe and Tom if you want to know how many and > how often fools do "professional" work on boats. ( i bet you guys have > some stories...) > > That reminds me, do we have a boat work "there I was..." thread? Those > stories should be captured for posterity. > > Good Luck, > > Kris > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* NEWMAN <d2… [at] gmail.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','d2… [at] gmail.com');>> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com');>; Kris Jensen < > cr… [at] att.net <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cr… [at] att.net');>> > *Cc:* Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','je… [at] mindspring.com');>> > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2016 1:53 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] engine distruction - was Cal 33 - exhaust > submerging > > All I know is my Cal 33 is 30 years old and the engine functions > flawlessly. I have motored and sailed many hours without issue. I remember > when I was very young an old mechanic telling me something after I had > mucked around with something and screwed it up..."If it ain't broke, don't > fix it!". So mine stays like it is. > > Leslie > Puffin > > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Kris Jensen cr… [at] att.net > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cr… [at] att.net');> [Cal_Boats] < > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com');>> wrote: > > > To provide an informed response, we really need to know what the entire > system looks like from the Exhaust Manifold to the through-hull, and where > all of that is in relation to the waterline (flat, heeled, and squatting) > > On my Cruising 35 with the bass-ackwards engine, the previous owner > redesigned the exhaust with a real belt and suspenders arrangement. Half > of that occurs inside the engine space so is not visible from the > lazzerette area. I could run the exhaust straight out the transom from the > waterlock and theoretically have no trouble. Anyone familiar with boat > exhausts would panic at the sight of that if they weren't aware of the > arrangement on the front (back?) of the engine. Under the bridge-deck, > there is an 18" dry riser with the injection elbow at the top. It's close > to two feet above the water line at all times. Also the water injection > tap for the dripless shaft seal is up there as well and provides a path for > water to drain back to the waterline from the injection elbow. > > If the OP has such an arrangement there is virtually no way that water > will come back through the waterlock to the engine or rise to the level of > the injection elbow. Adding a riser aft of the waterlock, while it can > help provide peace of mind with respect to water backing up, can cause > problems if it's higher than the injection port on the engine. > > We all know that in an over-crank situation (no-start, bleeding injectors, > etc) that the raw water pump is busy filling our exhaust system with water > but the lack of actual exhaust is not pushing it out the transom > effectively. If it fills up to the level of the injection elbow, it can > flow back into the engine. However this cannot occur if everything in the > exhaust after the injection elbow is lower. The excess water will just > flow out the transom. Whatever point the water would drain (out the > transom) if you're filling from the injection elbow is important. I'll > call this the Spill-Over point. If I knew there was a foot of vertical > drop between my injection elbow and the Spill-Over point then I'd crank to > my hearts content and never worry about water filling up my engine. If > there wasn't much distance or the Spill-Over was above the injection elbow, > then you have to be very watchful of over-crank situations because the > injection elbow can become the Spill-Over point. > > Mine has an additional goose-neck riser after the waterlock and its > spill-over is higher than the injection elbow. It goes up into the aft > cockpit coaming so there is no possibility of a following sea pushing in. > Theoretically the tap for the dripless shaft seal should drain any water to > below the level of the tap in an over-crank situation but I don't know if > the flow of the raw water pump during cranking can exceed the tap's ability > to drain it away, so if I'm cranking for a while, I close the raw water > valve until the engine fires. > > If the OP's boat has sufficient risers, etc before the waterlock, then > poking a fender under the exhaust hose just raises the spill-over point and > does almost nothing to lessen the chances of a suction issue pulling water > back from a submerged exhaust. Of course, raising the exhaust port on the > transom can help but also raises the spill-over point so must be done > mindfully. > > There is virtually no possibility of water backing up when the engine is > running. (think of walking Up the Down escalator) Also very low > probability while you are sailing. It's the shutdown where folks can run > into problems. A friends C & C 33 with an Atomic 4 had just a constantly > sloping muffler and hose to the transom. Exhaust was generally above the > waterline while motoring and sailing however he went through three head > gaskets after he started Club Racing before he figured out what was going > on. Typical day-sailing only used a few lines, minimal crew, etc. Club > Racing meant there were multiple sheets, guys, twings, and 7 extra two > hundred pound dudes on board. All of whom would end up standing in the > vicinity of the cockpit coiling lines at the end of the day. After > docking, the skipper would let the engine cool down for a bit, then shut it > down. With 7 dudes plus him in the aft end of the boat, the exhaust was > below the waterline and when the engine spun down, it would bounce off the > compression and spin backwards just enough to hiccup a bit of water back > into the engine. Paying attention to whether the exhaust was submerged > when he shut it off solved that for him without changing his spill-over > characteristics. > > Exhaust port submerging while at speed is really fairly common and in most > cases shouldn't cause a problem (as long as you are mindful of your exhaust > characteristics and the ramifications of those) but as I said before, we'd > really need to know what the whole arrangement is to give you usable > opinions on yours. > > I suppose what this "Book" points out is that exhaust system design (or > re-design) requires careful thought, an understanding of basic physics, > ability to comprehend and visualize spatial relationships, (what is this > going to look like heeled 30 degrees to starboard? Now Port?), cause and > effect analysis, (if I make a change to solve one problem, what new > potential problem am I introducing?) tempered with the experience of > dealing with the results of failures to get it right the first time. > > So I guess what I'm saying in closing, is if you think it might not be > right, ask somebody like Joe, or Tom, they'll know if it's an issue or > not... > > Kris > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','je… [at] mindspring.com');> [Cal_Boats]" < > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com');>> > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com');>; Claude > Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','uw… [at] yahoo.com');>> > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2016 6:33 AM > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] engine distruction - was Cal 33 - exhaust > submerging > > > ABYC says this - The exhaust thru hull must not be submerged during the > normal operation of the boat. > When we repower old boats, we strive to update the exhaust system to the > latest standards. This is to ensure that raw water can NEVER flow towards > the engine, and enter the cylinders. Obviously, this situation would lead > to a VERY EXPENSIVE engine repair. > We recently sold a new generator that was installed in a 40' raceboat. > The installer never bothered to investigate the correct exhaust system > design. 2 months later, the engine's cylinder was discovered to be full of > raw water. The boat owner is now faced with a major engine rebuild, or > engine replacement. > *Joe DeMers - owner* > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/> > > > > *phone & fax (860) 666-2184 * > On 11/14/16 3:56 PM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','uw… [at] yahoo.com');> [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > Thanks for the response. I sail in the Gulf and ICW around Port Aransas, > TX. I have observed the same "squatting" under sail only (she seems to > approach hull speed much more quickly than my former Catalina 30). Being on > port tack lessens my anxiety. No leaks evident around the exhaust port. My > big concern was salt water being siphoned back up the exhaust hose. > > > > Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jr… [at] triad.rr.com');> [Cal_Boats]" > <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com');> > Date: 11/14/16 10:02 AM (GMT-06:00) > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com');>, Claude > Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','uw… [at] yahoo.com');> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33 - exhaust submerging > > > Claude, welcome to the group! > > Yes, this is typical of this model. > The only negative I am aware of is the possible leak at the exhaust > fitting at the hull. Leakage would drain into the engine bilge area. > > Solution? > Slow down. Motoring at hull speed burns more fuel. > > Motor sail. With the main up (reeled as prudent) the added drive force > helps lessen the squat. Heeling will lift that side on a port tack. Down > wind with the headsail will keep the bow up and prevent plowing in to the > back of waves. Sails will add a knot or two with less engine thrust. > > We changed to a three blade prop several years ago. Better thrust in heavy > seas, better response in reverse, and I do not notice the squat when > motoring. > > Where do you sail? > > John Raxter > Cal 33 > Oriental NC > > On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','uw… [at] yahoo.com');> [Cal_Boats] < > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com');>> wrote: > > > New member of the group. Purchased a 1988 Cal 33 last year (hull #788) and > still getting to know her. I have noticed that as she approaches hull > speed, the stern really "squats" as the bow climbs the bow wave and the > exhaust goes partially below the water. I have moved as much weight as I > can out of the port lazarette and aft berth, but not easy since I live > aboard. > My questions: > 1) is this typical for Cal 33's and inconsequential or do I need to > continue trying to shift weight toward the bow? > 2) what might be the adverse consequences of submerging the exhaust > relative to the heat exchanger, mixing elbow, etc.? > > Thanks in advance for your insight. > > Claude > > > -- > *Joe DeMers - owner* > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>*phone & fax > (860) 666-2184* > > > > > > > >

I have sailed my Cal 33 (1986) through 36 foot seas that broke over the boat at least six times. I have buried the stern while motoring in D-waves that were 8 feet tall on the Chesapeake and on Galveston Bay. I have never, not once, had water enter the boat through the engine exhaust. Don Dutton 1986 Cal 33-2, Quantum Evolution Hayden Island, Oregon > On Nov 15, 2016, at 5:04 PM, NEWMAN d2… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Kris, TMI. I just meant I am not changing my exhaust design. It works fine. The components are not all original. I monitor all of my equipment and maintain them. My 1949 caterpillar D2, 1955 D2, 1977 FJ40, 1973 Ford Bronco, 1939 Ford 9N, 1953 Farmall Super A, and my 1986 Yanmar diesel. > > Leslie > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2016, Kris Jensen <cr… [at] att.net <mailto:cr… [at] att.net>> wrote: > I hear ya. I have enough to do on my own boat without fixing everybody else's too. > > My engine is 43 years old and has a newer head, injector pump and has had several alternators, starters, and lift pumps. Everything in the blocks is original. No one knows how many hours are on this engine. It is on it's 6th or 7th exhaust system. It is generally one the most abused, least robust portion of the engine installation. Most everything else is made of iron, steel, or aluminum and is bolted together. The exhaust is rubber, plastic, and hose clamps... > > I sincerely hope your exhaust isn't 30 years old! I would have to predict that your engine has COPD and would be running on borrowed time if that were the case. > > My last one made it 9 years (well actually it didn't, it was toast at about 7 but I didn't figure it out until 9) The previous owner ran his first one for 8 years and had a failure due to corrosion. After that, he changed everything from the manifold back (with the exception of the waterlock) to the transom every 5 years. When he pulled the set at 5 years he said they were still very usable but certainly he would never consider putting them back on. I ran his last set for 9 and when I pulled it apart I discovered why the engine was over heating. (in addition to the partly clogged heat exchanger) the hard portion of the pipe below the exhaust elbow was coked up so bad there was only about a 7/8's inch hole to get the exhaust (and cooling water) out into the 2 inch hose! At cruise RPM the engine was probably using 10-15 hp just trying to stuff its own exhaust out through that tiny hole. No problem at 1800 RPM, but try running at 2400 and the temp just slowly crept up and up. Now with a clean heat exchanger, and fresh exhaust, I made several 5-7 hour runs at 2500 RPM with the temp gauge sitting on 196 all day. > > My 9 year old wire reinforced hose had cracking in the outer surface and in spots had broken through from the inside to the wire and began to rust it. It was definitely time. Vetus waterlock had about an inch of rust flakes and other sediment in it. Nothing wrong with it otherwise. > > Exhaust needs attention just like the rest of the boat. > > The point I'd like to make with your "if it ain't broke don't fix it" comment tho is, it's fairly likely that the guy who designed/built these boats all those years ago was sharp enough to build a safe and trouble free exhaust system. However unless you are the original owner, you have no idea how many fools have worked on it between then and now. > > Again I'll refer you back to Joe and Tom if you want to know how many and how often fools do "professional" work on boats. ( i bet you guys have some stories...) > > That reminds me, do we have a boat work "there I was..." thread? Those stories should be captured for posterity. > > Good Luck, > > Kris > > > From: NEWMAN <d2… [at] gmail.com <>> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <>; Kris Jensen <cr… [at] att.net <>> > Cc: Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com <>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 1:53 PM > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] engine distruction - was Cal 33 - exhaust submerging > > All I know is my Cal 33 is 30 years old and the engine functions flawlessly. I have motored and sailed many hours without issue. I remember when I was very young an old mechanic telling me something after I had mucked around with something and screwed it up..."If it ain't broke, don't fix it!". So mine stays like it is. > > Leslie > Puffin > > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Kris Jensen cr… [at] att.net <> [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <>> wrote: > > To provide an informed response, we really need to know what the entire system looks like from the Exhaust Manifold to the through-hull, and where all of that is in relation to the waterline (flat, heeled, and squatting) > > On my Cruising 35 with the bass-ackwards engine, the previous owner redesigned the exhaust with a real belt and suspenders arrangement. Half of that occurs inside the engine space so is not visible from the lazzerette area. I could run the exhaust straight out the transom from the waterlock and theoretically have no trouble. Anyone familiar with boat exhausts would panic at the sight of that if they weren't aware of the arrangement on the front (back?) of the engine. Under the bridge-deck, there is an 18" dry riser with the injection elbow at the top. It's close to two feet above the water line at all times. Also the water injection tap for the dripless shaft seal is up there as well and provides a path for water to drain back to the waterline from the injection elbow. > > If the OP has such an arrangement there is virtually no way that water will come back through the waterlock to the engine or rise to the level of the injection elbow. Adding a riser aft of the waterlock, while it can help provide peace of mind with respect to water backing up, can cause problems if it's higher than the injection port on the engine. > > We all know that in an over-crank situation (no-start, bleeding injectors, etc) that the raw water pump is busy filling our exhaust system with water but the lack of actual exhaust is not pushing it out the transom effectively. If it fills up to the level of the injection elbow, it can flow back into the engine. However this cannot occur if everything in the exhaust after the injection elbow is lower. The excess water will just flow out the transom. Whatever point the water would drain (out the transom) if you're filling from the injection elbow is important. I'll call this the Spill-Over point. If I knew there was a foot of vertical drop between my injection elbow and the Spill-Over point then I'd crank to my hearts content and never worry about water filling up my engine. If there wasn't much distance or the Spill-Over was above the injection elbow, then you have to be very watchful of over-crank situations because the injection elbow can become the Spill-Over point. > > Mine has an additional goose-neck riser after the waterlock and its spill-over is higher than the injection elbow. It goes up into the aft cockpit coaming so there is no possibility of a following sea pushing in. Theoretically the tap for the dripless shaft seal should drain any water to below the level of the tap in an over-crank situation but I don't know if the flow of the raw water pump during cranking can exceed the tap's ability to drain it away, so if I'm cranking for a while, I close the raw water valve until the engine fires. > > If the OP's boat has sufficient risers, etc before the waterlock, then poking a fender under the exhaust hose just raises the spill-over point and does almost nothing to lessen the chances of a suction issue pulling water back from a submerged exhaust. Of course, raising the exhaust port on the transom can help but also raises the spill-over point so must be done mindfully. > > There is virtually no possibility of water backing up when the engine is running. (think of walking Up the Down escalator) Also very low probability while you are sailing. It's the shutdown where folks can run into problems. A friends C & C 33 with an Atomic 4 had just a constantly sloping muffler and hose to the transom. Exhaust was generally above the waterline while motoring and sailing however he went through three head gaskets after he started Club Racing before he figured out what was going on. Typical day-sailing only used a few lines, minimal crew, etc. Club Racing meant there were multiple sheets, guys, twings, and 7 extra two hundred pound dudes on board. All of whom would end up standing in the vicinity of the cockpit coiling lines at the end of the day. After docking, the skipper would let the engine cool down for a bit, then shut it down. With 7 dudes plus him in the aft end of the boat, the exhaust was below the waterline and when the engine spun down, it would bounce off the compression and spin backwards just enough to hiccup a bit of water back into the engine. Paying attention to whether the exhaust was submerged when he shut it off solved that for him without changing his spill-over characteristics. > > Exhaust port submerging while at speed is really fairly common and in most cases shouldn't cause a problem (as long as you are mindful of your exhaust characteristics and the ramifications of those) but as I said before, we'd really need to know what the whole arrangement is to give you usable opinions on yours. > > I suppose what this "Book" points out is that exhaust system design (or re-design) requires careful thought, an understanding of basic physics, ability to comprehend and visualize spatial relationships, (what is this going to look like heeled 30 degrees to starboard? Now Port?), cause and effect analysis, (if I make a change to solve one problem, what new potential problem am I introducing?) tempered with the experience of dealing with the results of failures to get it right the first time. > > So I guess what I'm saying in closing, is if you think it might not be right, ask somebody like Joe, or Tom, they'll know if it's an issue or not... > > Kris > > > From: "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com <> [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <>> > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <>; Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com <>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 6:33 AM > Subject: [Cal_Boats] engine distruction - was Cal 33 - exhaust submerging > > > ABYC says this - The exhaust thru hull must not be submerged during the normal operation of the boat. > When we repower old boats, we strive to update the exhaust system to the latest standards. This is to ensure that raw water can NEVER flow towards the engine, and enter the cylinders. Obviously, this situation would lead to a VERY EXPENSIVE engine repair. > We recently sold a new generator that was installed in a 40' raceboat. The installer never bothered to investigate the correct exhaust system design. 2 months later, the engine's cylinder was discovered to be full of raw water. The boat owner is now faced with a major engine rebuild, or engine replacement. > Joe DeMers - owner > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 <> > > > > On 11/14/16 3:56 PM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com <> [Cal_Boats] wrote: >> Thanks for the response. I sail in the Gulf and ICW around Port Aransas, TX. I have observed the same "squatting" under sail only (she seems to approach hull speed much more quickly than my former Catalina 30). Being on port tack lessens my anxiety. No leaks evident around the exhaust port. My big concern was salt water being siphoned back up the exhaust hose. >> >> >> >> Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: "Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com <> [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> <> >> Date: 11/14/16 10:02 AM (GMT-06:00) >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <>, Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> <> >> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33 - exhaust submerging >> >> >> Claude, welcome to the group! >> >> Yes, this is typical of this model. >> The only negative I am aware of is the possible leak at the exhaust fitting at the hull. Leakage would drain into the engine bilge area. >> >> Solution? >> Slow down. Motoring at hull speed burns more fuel. >> >> Motor sail. With the main up (reeled as prudent) the added drive force helps lessen the squat. Heeling will lift that side on a port tack. Down wind with the headsail will keep the bow up and prevent plowing in to the back of waves. Sails will add a knot or two with less engine thrust. >> >> We changed to a three blade prop several years ago. Better thrust in heavy seas, better response in reverse, and I do not notice the squat when motoring. >> >> Where do you sail? >> >> John Raxter >> Cal 33 >> Oriental NC >> >> On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com <> [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <>> wrote: >> >> >> New member of the group. Purchased a 1988 Cal 33 last year (hull #788) and still getting to know her. I have noticed that as she approaches hull speed, the stern really "squats" as the bow climbs the bow wave and the exhaust goes partially below the water. I have moved as much weight as I can out of the port lazarette and aft berth, but not easy since I live aboard. >> My questions: >> 1) is this typical for Cal 33's and inconsequential or do I need to continue trying to shift weight toward the bow? >> 2) what might be the adverse consequences of submerging the exhaust relative to the heat exchanger, mixing elbow, etc.? >> >> Thanks in advance for your insight. >> >> Claude > > -- > Joe DeMers - owner > Sound Marine Diesel LLC > SoundMarineDiesel.com <http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/>phone & fax (860) 666-2184 <> > > > > > > >

Don.. I want to sail with you, man! Chris O.Cal-29, BreezinVentura, CA From: "Donald C Dutton dn… [at] comcast.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; NEWMAN <d2… [at] gmail.com> Cc: Donald C Dutton <dn… [at] comcast.net> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] engine distruction - was Cal 33 - exhaust submerging I have sailed my Cal 33 (1986) through 36 foot seas that broke over the boat at least six times. I have buried the stern while motoring in D-waves that were 8 feet tall on the Chesapeake and on Galveston Bay. I have never, not once, had water enter the boat through the engine exhaust. Don Dutton1986 Cal 33-2, Quantum EvolutionHayden Island, Oregon On Nov 15, 2016, at 5:04 PM, NEWMAN d2… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Kris, TMI. I just meant I am not changing my exhaust design. It works fine. The components are not all original. I monitor all of my equipment and maintain them. My 1949 caterpillar D2, 1955 D2, 1977 FJ40, 1973 Ford Bronco, 1939 Ford 9N, 1953 Farmall Super A, and my 1986 Yanmar diesel. Leslie On Tuesday, November 15, 2016, Kris Jensen <cr… [at] att.net> wrote: I hear ya. I have enough to do on my own boat without fixing everybody else's too. My engine is 43 years old and has a newer head, injector pump and has had several alternators, starters, and lift pumps. Everything in the blocks is original. No one knows how many hours are on this engine. It is on it's 6th or 7th exhaust system. It is generally one the most abused, least robust portion of the engine installation. Most everything else is made of iron, steel, or aluminum and is bolted together. The exhaust is rubber, plastic, and hose clamps... I sincerely hope your exhaust isn't 30 years old! I would have to predict that your engine has COPD and would be running on borrowed time if that were the case. My last one made it 9 years (well actually it didn't, it was toast at about 7 but I didn't figure it out until 9) The previous owner ran his first one for 8 years and had a failure due to corrosion. After that, he changed everything from the manifold back (with the exception of the waterlock) to the transom every 5 years. When he pulled the set at 5 years he said they were still very usable but certainly he would never consider putting them back on. I ran his last set for 9 and when I pulled it apart I discovered why the engine was over heating. (in addition to the partly clogged heat exchanger) the hard portion of the pipe below the exhaust elbow was coked up so bad there was only about a 7/8's inch hole to get the exhaust (and cooling water) out into the 2 inch hose! At cruise RPM the engine was probably using 10-15 hp just trying to stuff its own exhaust out through that tiny hole. No problem at 1800 RPM, but try running at 2400 and the temp just slowly crept up and up. Now with a clean heat exchanger, and fresh exhaust, I made several 5-7 hour runs at 2500 RPM with the temp gauge sitting on 196 all day. My 9 year old wire reinforced hose had cracking in the outer surface and in spots had broken through from the inside to the wire and began to rust it. It was definitely time. Vetus waterlock had about an inch of rust flakes and other sediment in it. Nothing wrong with it otherwise. Exhaust needs attention just like the rest of the boat. The point I'd like to make with your "if it ain't broke don't fix it" comment tho is, it's fairly likely that the guy who designed/built these boats all those years ago was sharp enough to build a safe and trouble free exhaust system. However unless you are the original owner, you have no idea how many fools have worked on it between then and now. Again I'll refer you back to Joe and Tom if you want to know how many and how often fools do "professional" work on boats. ( i bet you guys have some stories...) That reminds me, do we have a boat work "there I was..." thread? Those stories should be captured for posterity. Good Luck, Kris From: NEWMAN <d2… [at] gmail.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; Kris Jensen <cr… [at] att.net> Cc: Joe DeMers <je… [at] mindspring.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] engine distruction - was Cal 33 - exhaust submerging All I know is my Cal 33 is 30 years old and the engine functions flawlessly. I have motored and sailed many hours without issue. I remember when I was very young an old mechanic telling me something after I had mucked around with something and screwed it up..."If it ain't broke, don't fix it!". So mine stays like it is. LesliePuffin On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Kris Jensen cr… [at] att.net [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: To provide an informed response, we really need to know what the entire system looks like from the Exhaust Manifold to the through-hull, and where all of that is in relation to the waterline (flat, heeled, and squatting) On my Cruising 35 with the bass-ackwards engine, the previous owner redesigned the exhaust with a real belt and suspenders arrangement. Half of that occurs inside the engine space so is not visible from the lazzerette area. I could run the exhaust straight out the transom from the waterlock and theoretically have no trouble. Anyone familiar with boat exhausts would panic at the sight of that if they weren't aware of the arrangement on the front (back?) of the engine. Under the bridge-deck, there is an 18" dry riser with the injection elbow at the top. It's close to two feet above the water line at all times. Also the water injection tap for the dripless shaft seal is up there as well and provides a path for water to drain back to the waterline from the injection elbow. If the OP has such an arrangement there is virtually no way that water will come back through the waterlock to the engine or rise to the level of the injection elbow. Adding a riser aft of the waterlock, while it can help provide peace of mind with respect to water backing up, can cause problems if it's higher than the injection port on the engine. We all know that in an over-crank situation (no-start, bleeding injectors, etc) that the raw water pump is busy filling our exhaust system with water but the lack of actual exhaust is not pushing it out the transom effectively. If it fills up to the level of the injection elbow, it can flow back into the engine. However this cannot occur if everything in the exhaust after the injection elbow is lower. The excess water will just flow out the transom. Whatever point the water would drain (out the transom) if you're filling from the injection elbow is important. I'll call this the Spill-Over point. If I knew there was a foot of vertical drop between my injection elbow and the Spill-Over point then I'd crank to my hearts content and never worry about water filling up my engine. If there wasn't much distance or the Spill-Over was above the injection elbow, then you have to be very watchful of over-crank situations because the injection elbow can become the Spill-Over point. Mine has an additional goose-neck riser after the waterlock and its spill-over is higher than the injection elbow. It goes up into the aft cockpit coaming so there is no possibility of a following sea pushing in. Theoretically the tap for the dripless shaft seal should drain any water to below the level of the tap in an over-crank situation but I don't know if the flow of the raw water pump during cranking can exceed the tap's ability to drain it away, so if I'm cranking for a while, I close the raw water valve until the engine fires. If the OP's boat has sufficient risers, etc before the waterlock, then poking a fender under the exhaust hose just raises the spill-over point and does almost nothing to lessen the chances of a suction issue pulling water back from a submerged exhaust. Of course, raising the exhaust port on the transom can help but also raises the spill-over point so must be done mindfully. There is virtually no possibility of water backing up when the engine is running. (think of walking Up the Down escalator) Also very low probability while you are sailing. It's the shutdown where folks can run into problems. A friends C & C 33 with an Atomic 4 had just a constantly sloping muffler and hose to the transom. Exhaust was generally above the waterline while motoring and sailing however he went through three head gaskets after he started Club Racing before he figured out what was going on. Typical day-sailing only used a few lines, minimal crew, etc. Club Racing meant there were multiple sheets, guys, twings, and 7 extra two hundred pound dudes on board. All of whom would end up standing in the vicinity of the cockpit coiling lines at the end of the day. After docking, the skipper would let the engine cool down for a bit, then shut it down. With 7 dudes plus him in the aft end of the boat, the exhaust was below the waterline and when the engine spun down, it would bounce off the compression and spin backwards just enough to hiccup a bit of water back into the engine. Paying attention to whether the exhaust was submerged when he shut it off solved that for him without changing his spill-over characteristics. Exhaust port submerging while at speed is really fairly common and in most cases shouldn't cause a problem (as long as you are mindful of your exhaust characteristics and the ramifications of those) but as I said before, we'd really need to know what the whole arrangement is to give you usable opinions on yours. I suppose what this "Book" points out is that exhaust system design (or re-design) requires careful thought, an understanding of basic physics, ability to comprehend and visualize spatial relationships, (what is this going to look like heeled 30 degrees to starboard? Now Port?), cause and effect analysis, (if I make a change to solve one problem, what new potential problem am I introducing?) tempered with the experience of dealing with the results of failures to get it right the first time. So I guess what I'm saying in closing, is if you think it might not be right, ask somebody like Joe, or Tom, they'll know if it's an issue or not... Kris From: "Joe DeMers je… [at] mindspring.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 6:33 AM Subject: [Cal_Boats] engine distruction - was Cal 33 - exhaust submerging ABYC says this - The exhaust thru hull must not be submerged during the normal operation of the boat.When we repower old boats, we strive to update the exhaust system to the latest standards. This is to ensure that raw water can NEVER flow towards the engine, and enter the cylinders. Obviously, this situation would lead to a VERY EXPENSIVE engine repair. We recently sold a new generator that was installed in a 40' raceboat. The installer never bothered to investigate the correct exhaust system design. 2 months later, the engine's cylinder was discovered to be full of raw water. The boat owner is now faced with a major engine rebuild, or engine replacement. Joe DeMers - ownerSound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.com phone & fax (860) 666-2184 On 11/14/16 3:56 PM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: Thanks for the response. I sail in the Gulf and ICW around Port Aransas, TX. I have observed the same "squatting" under sail only (she seems to approach hull speed much more quickly than my former Catalina 30). Being on port tack lessens my anxiety. No leaks evident around the exhaust port. My big concern was salt water being siphoned back up the exhaust hose. Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone From: "Jraxter jr… [at] triad.rr.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: 11/14/16 10:02 AM (GMT-06:00) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, Claude Roberts <uw… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 33 - exhaust submerging Claude, welcome to the group! Yes, this is typical of this model. The only negative I am aware of is the possible leak at the exhaust fitting at the hull. Leakage would drain into the engine bilge area. Solution? Slow down. Motoring at hull speed burns more fuel. Motor sail. With the main up (reeled as prudent) the added drive force helps lessen the squat. Heeling will lift that side on a port tack. Down wind with the headsail will keep the bow up and prevent plowing in to the back of waves. Sails will add a knot or two with less engine thrust. We changed to a three blade prop several years ago. Better thrust in heavy seas, better response in reverse, and I do not notice the squat when motoring. Where do you sail? John RaxterCal 33Oriental NC On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:20 AM, Claude Roberts uw… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: New member of the group. Purchased a 1988 Cal 33 last year (hull #788) and still getting to know her. I have noticed that as she approaches hull speed, the stern really "squats" as the bow climbs the bow wave and the exhaust goes partially below the water. I have moved as much weight as I can out of the port lazarette and aft berth, but not easy since I live aboard. My questions: 1) is this typical for Cal 33's and inconsequential or do I need to continue trying to shift weight toward the bow? 2) what might be the adverse consequences of submerging the exhaust relative to the heat exchanger, mixing elbow, etc.? Thanks in advance for your insight. Claude -- Joe DeMers - ownerSound Marine Diesel LLCSoundMarineDiesel.comphone & fax (860) 666-2184