Life lines

I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond tightening. I see my options are: -replace with Dyneema -replace with wire -tighten up existing, or I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. Best, Mike Casillo Cal 2-25, Invincible Summer Annapolis

Actually, Mike, racing boats without lifelines (like Cal 25s in Annapolis) are rare. I’m the one who will get the ire. That much stretch (or whatever caused the elongation) seems strange. I’ll be interested to see the answers. Cheers Charlie Annapolis Cal 25 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 4:59 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; cr… [at] att.net Subject: [Cal_Boats] Life lines I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond tightening. I see my options are: -replace with Dyneema -replace with wire -tighten up existing, or I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. Best, Mike Casillo Cal 2-25, Invincible Summer Annapolis

Mike,Racers are some of the most safety conscious sailors on the water. But to your question, if you doubt the state of your lifelines replace them. I'm not up on the newer stuff, replaced those on my 1972 CAL29 a year after I bought her with traditional wire. The best thing is to NOT have to rely on the lifelines. Keep one hand firmly on a non-moving part of the boat if possible. I crewed on a racing boat, did many port-to port races that were overnights or multiple days and our boat rule was lifejackets and harnesses after dark on deck, clipped to jacklines. Never lost anybody. We won our share.David Dobbs CAL29 411 On Thursday, January 26, 2017 4:03 PM, "'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Actually, Mike, racing boats without lifelines (like Cal 25s in Annapolis) are rare. I’m the one who will get the ire. That much stretch (or whatever caused the elongation) seems strange. I’ll be interested to see the answers. CheersCharlieAnnapolisCal 25 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 4:59 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; cr… [at] att.net Subject: [Cal_Boats] Life lines I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond tightening. I see my options are: -replace with Dyneema -replace with wire-tighten up existing, or I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. Best, Mike CasilloCal 2-25, Invincible SummerAnnapolis

somebody in your area has a rotary swag device, ask your sail maker. shorten and swag a new clevis end up front.

You did not say what kind of lifeline you have. If they are vinyl coated, get rid of them. Don't even think of keeping them. They can completely break inside and you won't know it until you need them. Mine were that way. 100% of strands were broken and they only held together because the breaks were spread out. Racers won't use them because they cannot be inspected. I replaced mine with Rigging Only stainless wire. They were uncoated. They were very helpful and the lifelines came and fit perfectly.... until I had to replace my stern pulpit because of the ass hole that ran me down in his 84 foot steel (I digress...). I had two choices, shorten the old ones, or use Amsteel and make new ones. I decided to make some Amsteel ones to at least get me to the boat yard for the new mast and maybe have the rigger who will put up my mast shorten them. Or maybe keep the Amsteel. If you make Amsteel ones let me offer two pieces of advice. 1) Make them short. And even before you make them, tie one end somewhere and crank like hell with a winch on the other end. Get them tight enough so they ping a nice note like a guitar string. The line should be somewhat stiff when you are done. Then use lashit and aim for about 6 inches of lashing on the end. The point is that there is a lot of construction stretch and creep in Amsteel but it is much cheaper than the stuff people use for rigging. But the easiest thing is to get new ones from Rigging Only. Allen On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 2:29 PM, david dobbs tm… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Mike, > Racers are some of the most safety conscious sailors on the water. But to > your question, if you doubt the state of your lifelines replace them. I'm > not up on the newer stuff, replaced those on my 1972 CAL29 a year after I > bought her with traditional wire. The best thing is to NOT have to rely on > the lifelines. Keep one hand firmly on a non-moving part of the boat if > possible. I crewed on a racing boat, did many port-to port races that were > overnights or multiple days and our boat rule was lifejackets and harnesses > after dark on deck, clipped to jacklines. Never lost anybody. We won our > share. > David Dobbs CAL29 411 > > > > On Thursday, January 26, 2017 4:03 PM, "'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com > [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > Actually, Mike, racing boats without lifelines (like Cal 25s in Annapolis) > are rare. I’m the one who will get the ire. > > That much stretch (or whatever caused the elongation) seems strange. I’ll > be interested to see the answers. > > Cheers > Charlie > Annapolis > Cal 25 > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, January 26, 2017 4:59 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; cr… [at] att.net > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Life lines > > > > > I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, > but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a > five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines > recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond > tightening. I see my options are: > -replace with Dyneema > -replace with wire > -tighten up existing, or > > I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension > in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). > Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. > > Best, > > Mike Casillo > Cal 2-25, *Invincible Summer* > Annapolis > > > > > > >

Isn't there some kind of fitting that you can attach, nico or nicro or something, which is kinda expensive but you can do it yourself, especially one-off, but might be easier than removing the life line and taking it to a rigging shop?I love dyneema, use it on my halyards, but make sure you get a version with minimal creep. The stuff is slippery and will stretch out if kept under constant tension like on standing rigging. This might not be the case with life lines.On my Cal 24 I only use life lines when required. Otherwise they get in the way and are more of a hazard than a help. When I flipped my executive officer off the boat and he went overboard, the fact I didn't have life lines probably saved his life, the life line would have cut him into two, besides ripping out the stachion. He fell ass over tea kettle from the windward side of the boat to the leeward when he was climbing over the cabin trunk, and the boat hit a wave and flipped him into the air. He fell 8 feet vertically, the width of the boat, and the lifeline would have caught him square in his back, which is bad to begin with. We spun around and had him back aboard so fast only one boat in the fleet saw it happen-we only lost one place. Sorta like retrieving a guy after he fell off a horse in those old Western movies.Jerry of Shpritz. On Thursday, January 26, 2017 2:30 PM, "david dobbs tm… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Mike,Racers are some of the most safety conscious sailors on the water. But to your question, if you doubt the state of your lifelines replace them. I'm not up on the newer stuff, replaced those on my 1972 CAL29 a year after I bought her with traditional wire. The best thing is to NOT have to rely on the lifelines. Keep one hand firmly on a non-moving part of the boat if possible. I crewed on a racing boat, did many port-to port races that were overnights or multiple days and our boat rule was lifejackets and harnesses after dark on deck, clipped to jacklines. Never lost anybody. We won our share.David Dobbs CAL29 411 On Thursday, January 26, 2017 4:03 PM, "'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Actually, Mike, racing boats without lifelines (like Cal 25s in Annapolis) are rare. I’m the one who will get the ire. That much stretch (or whatever caused the elongation) seems strange. I’ll be interested to see the answers. CheersCharlieAnnapolisCal 25 From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 4:59 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; cr… [at] att.net Subject: [Cal_Boats] Life lines I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond tightening. I see my options are: -replace with Dyneema -replace with wire-tighten up existing, or I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. Best, Mike CasilloCal 2-25, Invincible SummerAnnapolis

The lifelines haven't stretched, on my boat I found that the stantions had been bent by the stress from the Genoa or spinnaker sheets. Straightening the stantions significantly tightened the life lines. John B Cal 227 Gotcha Again On Jan 26, 2017 6:34 PM, "Gerald Sobel so… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Isn't there some kind of fitting that you can attach, nico or nicro or > something, which is kinda expensive but you can do it yourself, especially > one-off, but might be easier than removing the life line and taking it to a > rigging shop? > I love dyneema, use it on my halyards, but make sure you get a version > with minimal creep. The stuff is slippery and will stretch out if kept > under constant tension like on standing rigging. This might not be the case > with life lines. > On my Cal 24 I only use life lines when required. Otherwise they get in > the way and are more of a hazard than a help. When I flipped my executive > officer off the boat and he went overboard, the fact I didn't have life > lines probably saved his life, the life line would have cut him into two, > besides ripping out the stachion. He fell ass over tea kettle from the > windward side of the boat to the leeward when he was climbing over the > cabin trunk, and the boat hit a wave and flipped him into the air. He fell > 8 feet vertically, the width of the boat, and the lifeline would have > caught him square in his back, which is bad to begin with. We spun around > and had him back aboard so fast only one boat in the fleet saw it happen-we > only lost one place. Sorta like retrieving a guy after he fell off a horse > in those old Western movies. > Jerry of Shpritz. > > > On Thursday, January 26, 2017 2:30 PM, "david dobbs tm… [at] yahoo.com > [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > Mike, > Racers are some of the most safety conscious sailors on the water. But to > your question, if you doubt the state of your lifelines replace them. I'm > not up on the newer stuff, replaced those on my 1972 CAL29 a year after I > bought her with traditional wire. The best thing is to NOT have to rely on > the lifelines. Keep one hand firmly on a non-moving part of the boat if > possible. I crewed on a racing boat, did many port-to port races that were > overnights or multiple days and our boat rule was lifejackets and harnesses > after dark on deck, clipped to jacklines. Never lost anybody. We won our > share. > David Dobbs CAL29 411 > > > > On Thursday, January 26, 2017 4:03 PM, "'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com > [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > Actually, Mike, racing boats without lifelines (like Cal 25s in Annapolis) > are rare. I’m the one who will get the ire. > > That much stretch (or whatever caused the elongation) seems strange. I’ll > be interested to see the answers. > > Cheers > Charlie > Annapolis > Cal 25 > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, January 26, 2017 4:59 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; cr… [at] att.net > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Life lines > > > > > I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, > but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a > five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines > recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond > tightening. I see my options are: > -replace with Dyneema > -replace with wire > -tighten up existing, or > > I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension > in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). > Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. > > Best, > > Mike Casillo > Cal 2-25, *Invincible Summer* > Annapolis > > > > > > > > >

Guys, Dyneema will stretch and you need to worry about UV rays - heard folks having to replace in 4 years. Go with wire - - not coated - - you need to see the kinks and rust forming. Nick From: "Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: "Cal Boats" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>, cr… [at] att.net I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond tightening. I see my options are: -replace with Dyneema -replace with wire -tighten up existing, or I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. Best, Mike Casillo Cal 2-25, Invincible Summer Annapolis

Looks like I goofed and only replied straight to Mike... I want to toss my lifeline replacement concept into the fray. Both NER and Samson make a Lifeline replacement rope. I haven't fondled the NER stuff specifically but the both claim to be Dyneema. Which as many of you know is slippery stuff and I'm not sure I'd want that for an off-balance grab. I looked at the breaking strengths and properties of things and the miracle ropes now have wire pretty much beat in everything except UV and some types of physical abuse. Instead of straight single braid Dyneema which if you're under 35 feet long will be strong enough to pick up the whole boat, go with a miracle fiber double braid with a polyester cover. 1/4 inch Warpspeed II, Endura Braid, or similar with Dyneema, Vectran, or Technora core has a breaking strength of 4500-5000 lbs (vinyl coated 3/6ths wire is 3700 and bare 3/6ths 1X19 is 4250) and is much more fun to grab onto and comes in fun colors too. The polyester cover will protect the core from most insults for around a decade with no worries. Cost is within a few bucks either way and if you do your own splicing, I don't think you can buy wire cheaper. (even imported crap wire) If you want 10 years out of them put the shiny stainless thimbles in each end and wrap them with something at the stanchions or other possible wear points. Make then about 6-8 inches short and use lashing to do the tension. Of course having a thimble in both ends means you will probably have to splice them on the boat. (at least one end) So you'll still be able to thread them through the stanchions. You could also do a bare "luggage tag" eyesplice then attach that to a stainless ring, shackle or one of those Johnson Rope Lifeline turnbuckle ends after you thread it through. The bare luggage tag loop will thread OK and after you connect it you can wrap or cover it with something for UV protection. I used Samson UltraTech cuz I got a smoking deal on it. (check the remnants bin at your local sailors chandlery) Love my bitchin Maroon/Blue flecked lifelines! Think I paid less than $50 for my 23 foot racer. Kris From: "Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; cr… [at] att.net Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 1:58 PM Subject: [Cal_Boats] Life lines I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond tightening. I see my options are: -replace with Dyneema -replace with wire-tighten up existing, or I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. Best, Mike CasilloCal 2-25, Invincible SummerAnnapolis

I did a combination of ss tubing around cockpit (nice to grab when rolling) and Dyneema for remainder. Very nice stuff to work with, light AND inexpensive compared to ss cable. I figured Pardeys and other old cruisers used low tech rope for life lines so this miracle rope should do the job. Trade off: watch for wear. Mike Robinson S/V Eleanor May (916) 705-3200 our blog: http://www.sailblogs.com/member/eleanormay/ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:58 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; cr… [at] att.net Subject: [Cal_Boats] Life lines I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond tightening. I see my options are: -replace with Dyneema -replace with wire -tighten up existing, or I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. Best, Mike Casillo Cal 2-25, Invincible Summer Annapolis

I just want to repeat for emphasis a point about Amsteel. It is cheap but it will stretch, not like a rubber band but more like silly putty. Probably a poor analogy but what I mean is that for any given load, it will stretch but if you put a load less that than on it again, it won't stretch and it won't return to its former length. The expensive stuff is the same material but it has been pre stretched. What my sail maker does when he is making a sail with an Amsteel luff rope is he ties the Amsteel to a tree and the other end to his truck and tries to drive away (not really) but he stretches it. I have had pretty good luck using 40 power winches. If you pull hard enough, the stuff will stand proud if you hold it out. So get the cheap stuff and find a way to pull it really hard. The other thing you can do is pull it really tight then stand on the middle. Or you can put it on your lifelines and test it, tighten it more, test it, etc until it quits elongating. It isn't elastic stretch but more construction stretch although I don't think it is called that either but the point is, once you put a load on it, it won't stretch with a load up to that value. Second thing, where the line goes through the stanchions, make damn sure there are no sharp edges or out a piece of nylon tubing to protect it. It is strong as steel but a knife or sharp edge will cut it. Finally, if you want to make soft shackles, go to my web page and look up "improved soft shackle". It tells you how to make them for any size you might want. Allen L-36.com On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 8:34 PM, Michael Robinson mi… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > [Attachment(s) <#m_8683138985954069048_TopText> from Michael Robinson > included below] > > I did a combination of ss tubing around cockpit (nice to grab when > rolling) and Dyneema for remainder. Very nice stuff to work with, light AND > inexpensive compared to ss cable. I figured Pardeys and other old cruisers > used low tech rope for life lines so this miracle rope should do the job. > Trade off: watch for wear. > > > *Mike Robinson* > *S/V Eleanor May* > *(916) 705-3200 <(916)%20705-3200>* > > *our blog:* > http://www.sailblogs.com/member/eleanormay/ > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> on behalf > of Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] < > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:58 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; cr… [at] att.net > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Life lines > > > > I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, > but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a > five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines > recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond > tightening. I see my options are: > -replace with Dyneema > -replace with wire > -tighten up existing, or > > I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension > in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). > Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. > > Best, > > Mike Casillo > Cal 2-25, *Invincible Summer* > Annapolis > > > > >

Allen,Yes, dyneema will creep. I tried using it for my jumper stays, and twice, after tightening it up with a turnbuckle, I'd come back several days later and find it had slackened. So I went to stainless. But with lifelines, when you open the Pelican hooks, don't you take the stress off of it? The stuff I just bought for my new halyards is the next size up from 1/8" and is probably strong enough to pick up a full size car.Allen, how's your L36 now; back up and sailing it again?Jerry On Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:02 PM, "Allen Edwards al… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: I just want to repeat for emphasis a point about Amsteel. It is cheap but it will stretch, not like a rubber band but more like silly putty. Probably a poor analogy but what I mean is that for any given load, it will stretch but if you put a load less that than on it again, it won't stretch and it won't return to its former length. The expensive stuff is the same material but it has been pre stretched. What my sail maker does when he is making a sail with an Amsteel luff rope is he ties the Amsteel to a tree and the other end to his truck and tries to drive away (not really) but he stretches it. I have had pretty good luck using 40 power winches. If you pull hard enough, the stuff will stand proud if you hold it out. So get the cheap stuff and find a way to pull it really hard. The other thing you can do is pull it really tight then stand on the middle. Or you can put it on your lifelines and test it, tighten it more, test it, etc until it quits elongating. It isn't elastic stretch but more construction stretch although I don't think it is called that either but the point is, once you put a load on it, it won't stretch with a load up to that value. Second thing, where the line goes through the stanchions, make damn sure there are no sharp edges or out a piece of nylon tubing to protect it. It is strong as steel but a knife or sharp edge will cut it. Finally, if you want to make soft shackles, go to my web page and look up "improved soft shackle". It tells you how to make them for any size you might want. AllenL-36.com On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 8:34 PM, Michael Robinson mi… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Michael Robinson included below] I did a combination of ss tubing around cockpit (nice to grab when rolling) and Dyneema for remainder. Very nice stuff to work with, light AND inexpensive compared to ss cable. I figured Pardeys and other old cruisers used low tech rope for life lines so this miracle rope should do the job. Trade off: watch for wear. Mike RobinsonS/V Eleanor May(916) 705-3200 our blog:http://www.sailblogs.com/ member/eleanormay/ From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:58 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; cr… [at] att.net Subject: [Cal_Boats] Life lines I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond tightening. I see my options are: -replace with Dyneema -replace with wire-tighten up existing, or I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. Best, Mike CasilloCal 2-25, Invincible SummerAnnapolis

I hope to get the mast next month. Bunch of delays at every step of the process. So far I have the stern pulpit replaced and it looks beautiful. I had a new mast collar and mast base plate fabricated. Garhauer did a fantastic job at 1/2 the price of any local shop. The new mast is aluminum in case I have not mentioned that. After I get the mast and check for hidden structural damage, I will need to get new sails cut so it is a long road ahead and it pisses me off every time I think about it. I am grateful I was found to have broken no rule in my protest hearing and that I got an acceptable insurance settlement without having to file with my own insurer. I didn't file with my own insurance because what I got was more than my own coverage limit. The guy who hit me's version of what happened is an "alternate reality" which pisses me off as much as anything else. Thanks for asking. On the Amsteel, I think the trick is to load it up with more than the working load you intend before you install it. That should help with the creep problem. A good example of that is in making soft shackles. When you first tie the knot, you have a nice soft fabric like knot. After you lock it, it is as hard as a marble and when you bang it on the desk, it clunks. Pre loading it like that really changes its characteristics. If you buy some of the other variations that have been pre loaded, they are stiff and a little hard to bend. That is what you should aim for with the tree and your truck. Allen On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 12:58 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: > Allen, > Yes, dyneema will creep. I tried using it for my jumper stays, and twice, > after tightening it up with a turnbuckle, I'd come back several days later > and find it had slackened. So I went to stainless. But with lifelines, when > you open the Pelican hooks, don't you take the stress off of it? The stuff > I just bought for my new halyards is the next size up from 1/8" and is > probably strong enough to pick up a full size car. > Allen, how's your L36 now; back up and sailing it again? > Jerry > > > On Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:02 PM, "Allen Edwards > al… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > I just want to repeat for emphasis a point about Amsteel. It is cheap but > it will stretch, not like a rubber band but more like silly putty. > Probably a poor analogy but what I mean is that for any given load, it will > stretch but if you put a load less that than on it again, it won't stretch > and it won't return to its former length. The expensive stuff is the same > material but it has been pre stretched. What my sail maker does when he is > making a sail with an Amsteel luff rope is he ties the Amsteel to a tree > and the other end to his truck and tries to drive away (not really) but he > stretches it. I have had pretty good luck using 40 power winches. If you > pull hard enough, the stuff will stand proud if you hold it out. So get > the cheap stuff and find a way to pull it really hard. The other thing you > can do is pull it really tight then stand on the middle. Or you can put it > on your lifelines and test it, tighten it more, test it, etc until it quits > elongating. It isn't elastic stretch but more construction stretch > although I don't think it is called that either but the point is, once you > put a load on it, it won't stretch with a load up to that value. > > Second thing, where the line goes through the stanchions, make damn sure > there are no sharp edges or out a piece of nylon tubing to protect it. It > is strong as steel but a knife or sharp edge will cut it. > > Finally, if you want to make soft shackles, go to my web page and look up > "improved soft shackle". It tells you how to make them for any size you > might want. > > Allen > L-36.com > > On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 8:34 PM, Michael Robinson > mi… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > [Attachment(s) > <https://mg.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?#m_8683138985954069048_TopText> > from Michael Robinson included below] > I did a combination of ss tubing around cockpit (nice to grab when > rolling) and Dyneema for remainder. Very nice stuff to work with, light AND > inexpensive compared to ss cable. I figured Pardeys and other old cruisers > used low tech rope for life lines so this miracle rope should do the job. > Trade off: watch for wear. > > *Mike Robinson* > *S/V Eleanor May* > *(916) 705-3200* > > *our blog:* > http://www.sailblogs.com/ member/eleanormay/ > <http://www.sailblogs.com/member/eleanormay/> > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> on behalf > of Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] < > Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:58 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; cr… [at] att.net > *Subject:* [Cal_Boats] Life lines > > > > I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, > but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a > five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines > recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond > tightening. I see my options are: > -replace with Dyneema > -replace with wire > -tighten up existing, or > > I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension > in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). > Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. > > Best, > > Mike Casillo > Cal 2-25, *Invincible Summer* > Annapolis > > > > > > > >

I appreciate all the input on my lifeline replace project. The existing ones are the vinyl coated stainless type and as several suggested, have to go. I'm ultimately going to go with the cheaper of stainless or dyneema. I was initially leaning towards the stainless (Rigging Online) because I thought I could use some of the existing hardware and the cost of the replacement dyneema hardware adds up fast. The configuration I'm going with is two sets of lines from the first stantion from the bow aft to the stern pulpit with 2 gates (one on each side) between the first stantion and bow pulpit. The gates are going to be separate (e.g double eye gate) from the rest of the line so that the lifelines don't go slack when the gate is opened. I talked to APS in Annapolis and they say they have a dyneema method with minimalist hardware. It involves splicing a "luggage tag" on one end and unfinished on the other and lashing the line at one end to eliminate slack. I will check it out and make sure it is the pre-stretched variety. So, in short, I'm looking into Dyneema with minimalist hardware. Best, Mike Cal 2-25 Annapolis > On Jan 27, 2017, at 10:45 AM, Allen Edwards al… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > I hope to get the mast next month. Bunch of delays at every step of the process. So far I have the stern pulpit replaced and it looks beautiful. I had a new mast collar and mast base plate fabricated. Garhauer did a fantastic job at 1/2 the price of any local shop. The new mast is aluminum in case I have not mentioned that. After I get the mast and check for hidden structural damage, I will need to get new sails cut so it is a long road ahead and it pisses me off every time I think about it. I am grateful I was found to have broken no rule in my protest hearing and that I got an acceptable insurance settlement without having to file with my own insurer. I didn't file with my own insurance because what I got was more than my own coverage limit. The guy who hit me's version of what happened is an "alternate reality" which pisses me off as much as anything else. Thanks for asking. > > On the Amsteel, I think the trick is to load it up with more than the working load you intend before you install it. That should help with the creep problem. A good example of that is in making soft shackles. When you first tie the knot, you have a nice soft fabric like knot. After you lock it, it is as hard as a marble and when you bang it on the desk, it clunks. Pre loading it like that really changes its characteristics. If you buy some of the other variations that have been pre loaded, they are stiff and a little hard to bend. That is what you should aim for with the tree and your truck. > > Allen > >> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 12:58 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: >> Allen, >> Yes, dyneema will creep. I tried using it for my jumper stays, and twice, after tightening it up with a turnbuckle, I'd come back several days later and find it had slackened. So I went to stainless. But with lifelines, when you open the Pelican hooks, don't you take the stress off of it? The stuff I just bought for my new halyards is the next size up from 1/8" and is probably strong enough to pick up a full size car. >> Allen, how's your L36 now; back up and sailing it again? >> Jerry >> >> >> On Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:02 PM, "Allen Edwards al… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> I just want to repeat for emphasis a point about Amsteel. It is cheap but it will stretch, not like a rubber band but more like silly putty. Probably a poor analogy but what I mean is that for any given load, it will stretch but if you put a load less that than on it again, it won't stretch and it won't return to its former length. The expensive stuff is the same material but it has been pre stretched. What my sail maker does when he is making a sail with an Amsteel luff rope is he ties the Amsteel to a tree and the other end to his truck and tries to drive away (not really) but he stretches it. I have had pretty good luck using 40 power winches. If you pull hard enough, the stuff will stand proud if you hold it out. So get the cheap stuff and find a way to pull it really hard. The other thing you can do is pull it really tight then stand on the middle. Or you can put it on your lifelines and test it, tighten it more, test it, etc until it quits elongating. It isn't elastic stretch but more construction stretch although I don't think it is called that either but the point is, once you put a load on it, it won't stretch with a load up to that value. >> >> Second thing, where the line goes through the stanchions, make damn sure there are no sharp edges or out a piece of nylon tubing to protect it. It is strong as steel but a knife or sharp edge will cut it. >> >> Finally, if you want to make soft shackles, go to my web page and look up "improved soft shackle". It tells you how to make them for any size you might want. >> >> Allen >> L-36.com >> >> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 8:34 PM, Michael Robinson mi… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> [Attachment(s) from Michael Robinson included below] >> I did a combination of ss tubing around cockpit (nice to grab when rolling) and Dyneema for remainder. Very nice stuff to work with, light AND inexpensive compared to ss cable. I figured Pardeys and other old cruisers used low tech rope for life lines so this miracle rope should do the job. Trade off: watch for wear. >> >> Mike Robinson >> S/V Eleanor May >> (916) 705-3200 >> >> our blog: >> http://www.sailblogs.com/ member/eleanormay/ >> >> >> >> From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:58 PM >> To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; cr… [at] att.net >> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Life lines >> >> >> >> I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond tightening. I see my options are: >> -replace with Dyneema >> -replace with wire >> -tighten up existing, or >> >> I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. >> >> Best, >> >> Mike Casillo >> Cal 2-25, Invincible Summer >> Annapolis >> >> >> >> >> > >

don't forget, the lifespan of the two different materials will determine, in the long run, which is "cheaper" to purchase... Best Regards, George Macon From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 5:58 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; Allen Edwards Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Life lines I appreciate all the input on my lifeline replace project. The existing ones are the vinyl coated stainless type and as several suggested, have to go. I'm ultimately going to go with the cheaper of stainless or dyneema. I was initially leaning towards the stainless (Rigging Online) because I thought I could use some of the existing hardware and the cost of the replacement dyneema hardware adds up fast. The configuration I'm going with is two sets of lines from the first stantion from the bow aft to the stern pulpit with 2 gates (one on each side) between the first stantion and bow pulpit. The gates are going to be separate (e.g double eye gate) from the rest of the line so that the lifelines don't go slack when the gate is opened. I talked to APS in Annapolis and they say they have a dyneema method with minimalist hardware. It involves splicing a "luggage tag" on one end and unfinished on the other and lashing the line at one end to eliminate slack. I will check it out and make sure it is the pre-stretched variety. So, in short, I'm looking into Dyneema with minimalist hardware. Best, Mike Cal 2-25 Annapolis On Jan 27, 2017, at 10:45 AM, Allen Edwards al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com> [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> wrote: I hope to get the mast next month. Bunch of delays at every step of the process. So far I have the stern pulpit replaced and it looks beautiful. I had a new mast collar and mast base plate fabricated. Garhauer did a fantastic job at 1/2 the price of any local shop. The new mast is aluminum in case I have not mentioned that. After I get the mast and check for hidden structural damage, I will need to get new sails cut so it is a long road ahead and it pisses me off every time I think about it. I am grateful I was found to have broken no rule in my protest hearing and that I got an acceptable insurance settlement without having to file with my own insurer. I didn't file with my own insurance because what I got was more than my own coverage limit. The guy who hit me's version of what happened is an "alternate reality" which pisses me off as much as anything else. Thanks for asking. On the Amsteel, I think the trick is to load it up with more than the working load you intend before you install it. That should help with the creep problem. A good example of that is in making soft shackles. When you first tie the knot, you have a nice soft fabric like knot. After you lock it, it is as hard as a marble and when you bang it on the desk, it clunks. Pre loading it like that really changes its characteristics. If you buy some of the other variations that have been pre loaded, they are stiff and a little hard to bend. That is what you should aim for with the tree and your truck. Allen On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 12:58 AM, Gerald Sobel <so… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:so… [at] yahoo.com>> wrote: Allen, Yes, dyneema will creep. I tried using it for my jumper stays, and twice, after tightening it up with a turnbuckle, I'd come back several days later and find it had slackened. So I went to stainless. But with lifelines, when you open the Pelican hooks, don't you take the stress off of it? The stuff I just bought for my new halyards is the next size up from 1/8" and is probably strong enough to pick up a full size car. Allen, how's your L36 now; back up and sailing it again? Jerry On Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:02 PM, "Allen Edwards al… [at] gmail.com<mailto:al… [at] gmail.com> [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> wrote: I just want to repeat for emphasis a point about Amsteel. It is cheap but it will stretch, not like a rubber band but more like silly putty. Probably a poor analogy but what I mean is that for any given load, it will stretch but if you put a load less that than on it again, it won't stretch and it won't return to its former length. The expensive stuff is the same material but it has been pre stretched. What my sail maker does when he is making a sail with an Amsteel luff rope is he ties the Amsteel to a tree and the other end to his truck and tries to drive away (not really) but he stretches it. I have had pretty good luck using 40 power winches. If you pull hard enough, the stuff will stand proud if you hold it out. So get the cheap stuff and find a way to pull it really hard. The other thing you can do is pull it really tight then stand on the middle. Or you can put it on your lifelines and test it, tighten it more, test it, etc until it quits elongating. It isn't elastic stretch but more construction stretch although I don't think it is called that either but the point is, once you put a load on it, it won't stretch with a load up to that value. Second thing, where the line goes through the stanchions, make damn sure there are no sharp edges or out a piece of nylon tubing to protect it. It is strong as steel but a knife or sharp edge will cut it. Finally, if you want to make soft shackles, go to my web page and look up "improved soft shackle". It tells you how to make them for any size you might want. Allen L-36.com<http://L-36.com> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 8:34 PM, Michael Robinson mi… [at] hotmail.com<mailto:mi… [at] hotmail.com> [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> wrote: [Attachment(s)<https://mg.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?#m_8683138985954069048_TopText> from Michael Robinson included below] I did a combination of ss tubing around cockpit (nice to grab when rolling) and Dyneema for remainder. Very nice stuff to work with, light AND inexpensive compared to ss cable. I figured Pardeys and other old cruisers used low tech rope for life lines so this miracle rope should do the job. Trade off: watch for wear. Mike Robinson S/V Eleanor May (916) 705-3200 our blog: http://www.sailblogs.com/ member/eleanormay/<http://www.sailblogs.com/member/eleanormay/> From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> on behalf of Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com<mailto:mi… [at] yahoo.com> [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:58 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com<mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>; cr… [at] att.net<mailto:cr… [at] att.net> Subject: [Cal_Boats] Life lines I know that this question is likely going to elicit some ire from racers, but please understand mine is a cruising boat and I have an infant and a five year old...Has anyone replaced or tightened up their lifelines recently? The life lines on my boat are sagging seemingly beyond tightening. I see my options are: -replace with Dyneema -replace with wire -tighten up existing, or I'd prefer the third option, but I'm at a loss at how to gain more tension in the existing lines (they are as tight as the fastener screw allows). Any thoughts on this issue (other than reproach) is appreciated. Best, Mike Casillo Cal 2-25, Invincible Summer Annapolis