Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel wobble

Hi Ken and Joe, The wobble is normal in older Cals. The 28 and 29 seems to be the worst, at least I don't remember the 34s complaining about it. My Cal 29 has it and I race her very hard.I can sometimes feel it in a light swell or if I come off a big wave heeled over., I get and weird feel to it. I check it at every haul out and it seems the same. I look for cracks and so far so good. One of the Cal 25s I raced against developed a crack in a race blowing over 35 knots, we were singlehanding. I changed to a #3 and he left his #1 up.. he reinforced the keel by tabbing in bulkheads/partitions in the keel. Some owners just add more glass over the turn of the bilge. Randy Cal 2-29Out Patient Channel Islands Ca -------- Original message --------From: "Ken Gawry kw… [at] sbcglobal.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: 5/27/17 12:32 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, jo… [at] yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel wobble Hi Joe Here's my situation. I have a 1970 Cal29 that I bought in Aug. of 2015. Last summer, I attempted to motor through an opening in a break wall and ended up on some rocks. Assessing the damage afterward, the only thing we could see was, inside the engine/ battery compartment, the tabbing where the side plywood panels met the front panel slightly separated. No leaks, no other visible damage. Upon lifting out for the winter, the yardman says," hey, you have a little swing in your keel". Sure enough, you could move it from side to side maybe any inch to an inch and a quarter to each side. I don't remember it doing that before although I am not positive that it didn't. I called the previous owner and they did not remember whether or not there was any movement there. I assumed that it might have been a result of the rocks. Looking at the keel, the damage from the collision was about 4-5 inches up from the bottom and a little scraping on the bottom. I thoroughly inspected the exterior and the interior with a fine tooth comb. I mean every bulk head, every panel, everywhere two sections met and found not even a hairline crack. Not only I, but I also had the insurance adjuster spent two hours going over it , I had a marine engineer spend three hours looking at it, the marine repair shop, MarineWorx, looked at it at least five times and he has a friend that worked for Tartan Marine that is right next door to us in Fairport Harbor look at it twice and nobody could see any issue that might be causing the swing. The marine engineer recommended putting three bulk heads in the bilge area from where the bilge floor up to the cabin floor. Kevin, from MarineWorx and his friend from Tartan decided that putting cross bracing in the bilge would work. The final decision is that we aren't going to touch it. Kevin was honest enough to come forward and say that he and his friend hashed this over quite a few times and what I kind of felt all along. The intended repairs might not make any difference and he wouldn't want to see me spend $3,000.00 for nothing. After the incident, we kept on sailing. I didn't notice any difference in performance or any thing else that might have been related to it. So we intend to just continue to sail it, keeping a close eye on the condition of the boat as we do. I feel that if something does start to go wrong, it would be in the form of maybe a crack developing and get worse over time. At that point we could actually see a prioblem and address it. I am not worried that I will be out in the middle of Lake Erie and the keel is going to fall off. When it first happened, I posted the issue on this forum. One or two responded that they had seen this kind of thing before and it wasn't a problem. I hope this has been of some help and comfort to you and I wish you many safe and happy years sailing a great, well constructed vessel. If you have any questions, please call me at 216-392-2220. Bon Voyage, Ken On Saturday, May 27, 2017 2:35 PM, "jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: [Attachment(s) from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] included below] I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP!

The truth is no one really knows. The issue is the hull is a thin skin, which will flex and the laminate gets weaker w time. Some estimates I have read suggest the laminate strength is 60% of what it was when it was new because the water is breaking down the polyester resin. That said these boats were overbuilt. So they very well could have another 50 years left in them. Looking at my cal 29, if I ever get around to stuffing my keel, It is obvious to me that the hull skin needs to be stiffened, probably by adding some type of core. Any stiffening needs to taper out to the rest of the hull so you don't create a hard spot that could create a crack next to where you stiffened. It's not an easy problem to solve from what I have seen in my 29. East coast cal29 sailor Jim Englert Hi-Tech Engraving 757-873-3639 > On May 27, 2017, at 4:47 PM, saylorran sa… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Hi Ken and Joe, > > The wobble is normal in older Cals. The 28 and 29 seems to be the worst, at least I don't remember the 34s complaining about it. > > My Cal 29 has it and I race her very hard.I can sometimes feel it in a light swell or if I come off a big wave heeled over., I get and weird feel to it. I check it at every haul out and it seems the same. I look for cracks and so far so good. > > One of the Cal 25s I raced against developed a crack in a race blowing over 35 knots, we were singlehanding. I changed to a #3 and he left his #1 up.. he reinforced the keel by tabbing in bulkheads/partitions in the keel. > > Some owners just add more glass over the turn of the bilge. > > Randy > Cal 2-29 > Out Patient > Channel Islands Ca > > > > Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S7 edge. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "Ken Gawry kw… [at] sbcglobal.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Date: 5/27/17 12:32 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, jo… [at] yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel wobble > > > Hi Joe > Here's my situation. I have a 1970 Cal29 that I bought in Aug. of 2015. Last summer, I attempted to motor through an opening in a break wall and ended up on some rocks. Assessing the damage afterward, the only thing we could see was, inside the engine/ battery compartment, the tabbing where the side plywood panels met the front panel slightly separated. No leaks, no other visible damage. Upon lifting out for the winter, the yardman says," hey, you have a little swing in your keel". Sure enough, you could move it from side to side maybe any inch to an inch and a quarter to each side. I don't remember it doing that before although I am not positive that it didn't. I called the previous owner and they did not remember whether or not there was any movement there. I assumed that it might have been a result of the rocks. Looking at the keel, the damage from the collision was about 4-5 inches up from the bottom and a little scraping on the bottom. > I thoroughly inspected the exterior and the interior with a fine tooth comb. I mean every bulk head, every panel, everywhere two sections met and found not even a hairline crack. Not only I, but I also had the insurance adjuster spent two hours going over it , I had a marine engineer spend three hours looking at it, the marine repair shop, MarineWorx, looked at it at least five times and he has a friend that worked for Tartan Marine that is right next door to us in Fairport Harbor look at it twice and nobody could see any issue that might be causing the swing. > The marine engineer recommended putting three bulk heads in the bilge area from where the bilge floor up to the cabin floor. Kevin, from MarineWorx and his friend from Tartan decided that putting cross bracing in the bilge would work. The final decision is that we aren't going to touch it. Kevin was honest enough to come forward and say that he and his friend hashed this over quite a few times and what I kind of felt all along. The intended repairs might not make any difference and he wouldn't want to see me spend $3,000.00 for nothing. > After the incident, we kept on sailing. I didn't notice any difference in performance or any thing else that might have been related to it. So we intend to just continue to sail it, keeping a close eye on the condition of the boat as we do. I feel that if something does start to go wrong, it would be in the form of maybe a crack developing and get worse over time. At that point we could actually see a prioblem and address it. I am not worried that I will be out in the middle of Lake Erie and the keel is going to fall off. When it first happened, I posted the issue on this forum. One or two responded that they had seen this kind of thing before and it wasn't a problem. > I hope this has been of some help and comfort to you and I wish you many safe and happy years sailing a great, well constructed vessel. If you have any questions, please call me at 216-392-2220. > > Bon Voyage, Ken > > > On Saturday, May 27, 2017 2:35 PM, "jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > [Attachment(s) from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] included below] > I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP! > > > > >

Thanks, Jim. There's an old retired Navy officer and sailboater who lives near me and says almost the same thing you did when he came and looked at the inside of my keel and didn't see any issues and said it sounded rock solid. Yes, he said they overbuilt them at the time because no one really knew just how strong glass was, resin is a petroleum byproduct and was dirt cheap at the time and so they builders of these things just went crazy laying up the glass. Ken mentioned that some owners just lay in some more glass at the turn of the keel. I don't know if I can reach along the entire turn of the keel from fore to aft without removing a portion of the floor though. Going from amidships to aft is easily reachable through the keel access hatch in the salon but going all the way forward along the turn might be difficult. I have long arms but not sure I can reach that far or not. If it's possible to do, it seems to me a better idea of putting in stiffeners/bulkheads because I can see that not turning out well if it's not done just right. What do you think about the notion of just layering in some more glass over the turn of the keel? On Saturday, May 27, 2017 8:57 PM, "Jim Englert sa… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: The truth is no one really knows. The issue is the hull is a thin skin, which will flex and the laminate gets weaker w time. Some estimates I have read suggest the laminate strength is 60% of what it was when it was new because the water is breaking down the polyester resin. That said these boats were overbuilt. So they very well could have another 50 years left in them. Looking at my cal 29, if I ever get around to stuffing my keel, It is obvious to me that the hull skin needs to be stiffened, probably by adding some type of core. Any stiffening needs to taper out to the rest of the hull so you don't create a hard spot that could create a crack next to where you stiffened. It's not an easy problem to solve from what I have seen in my 29. East coast cal29 sailor Jim EnglertHi-Tech Engraving757-873-3639 On May 27, 2017, at 4:47 PM, saylorran sa… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Hi Ken and Joe, The wobble is normal in older Cals. The 28 and 29 seems to be the worst, at least I don't remember the 34s complaining about it. My Cal 29 has it and I race her very hard.I can sometimes feel it in a light swell or if I come off a big wave heeled over., I get and weird feel to it. I check it at every haul out and it seems the same. I look for cracks and so far so good. One of the Cal 25s I raced against developed a crack in a race blowing over 35 knots, we were singlehanding. I changed to a #3 and he left his #1 up.. he reinforced the keel by tabbing in bulkheads/partitions in the keel. Some owners just add more glass over the turn of the bilge. Randy Cal 2-29Out Patient Channel Islands Ca -------- Original message --------From: "Ken Gawry kw… [at] sbcglobal.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Date: 5/27/17 12:32 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com, jo… [at] yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel wobble Hi Joe Here's my situation. I have a 1970 Cal29 that I bought in Aug. of 2015. Last summer, I attempted to motor through an opening in a break wall and ended up on some rocks. Assessing the damage afterward, the only thing we could see was, inside the engine/ battery compartment, the tabbing where the side plywood panels met the front panel slightly separated. No leaks, no other visible damage. Upon lifting out for the winter, the yardman says," hey, you have a little swing in your keel". Sure enough, you could move it from side to side maybe any inch to an inch and a quarter to each side. I don't remember it doing that before although I am not positive that it didn't. I called the previous owner and they did not remember whether or not there was any movement there. I assumed that it might have been a result of the rocks. Looking at the keel, the damage from the collision was about 4-5 inches up from the bottom and a little scraping on the bottom. I thoroughly inspected the exterior and the interior with a fine tooth comb. I mean every bulk head, every panel, everywhere two sections met and found not even a hairline crack. Not only I, but I also had the insurance adjuster spent two hours going over it , I had a marine engineer spend three hours looking at it, the marine repair shop, MarineWorx, looked at it at least five times and he has a friend that worked for Tartan Marine that is right next door to us in Fairport Harbor look at it twice and nobody could see any issue that might be causing the swing. The marine engineer recommended putting three bulk heads in the bilge area from where the bilge floor up to the cabin floor. Kevin, from MarineWorx and his friend from Tartan decided that putting cross bracing in the bilge would work. The final decision is that we aren't going to touch it. Kevin was honest enough to come forward and say that he and his friend hashed this over quite a few times and what I kind of felt all along. The intended repairs might not make any difference and he wouldn't want to see me spend $3,000.00 for nothing. After the incident, we kept on sailing. I didn't notice any difference in performance or any thing else that might have been related to it. So we intend to just continue to sail it, keeping a close eye on the condition of the boat as we do. I feel that if something does start to go wrong, it would be in the form of maybe a crack developing and get worse over time. At that point we could actually see a prioblem and address it. I am not worried that I will be out in the middle of Lake Erie and the keel is going to fall off. When it first happened, I posted the issue on this forum. One or two responded that they had seen this kind of thing before and it wasn't a problem. I hope this has been of some help and comfort to you and I wish you many safe and happy years sailing a great, well constructed vessel. If you have any questions, please call me at 216-392-2220. Bon Voyage, Ken On Saturday, May 27, 2017 2:35 PM, "jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: [Attachment(s) from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] included below] I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP!