keel wobble

Hi Y'all, I'm rebuilding my Cal and have checked out the keel wobble thing. My original mini-keel bulkheads are gone but I have replaced them. Although this lessens the support, to see where the keel wobble is at, it is best to not have the sole in place. Straddling the keel and applying pressure alternatively from side to side makes the keel swing wildly in the water or in the sling. One tends to look as far down the keel as possible to see how badly it is swinging. This is not where the flexing is. About where the beginning of the settee is on each side, or dinette, is where the flexing begins. It continues further up through the thinner layers of glass under the settees. In my Cal, the mini-bulkheads, glassed in sole, and settee bottoms and mini-bulkheads with-in them give the keel it's bit of wobblefreeness. I'm building floors on the new mini-bulkheads of my keel, attatching a new sole to them and the hull, and extending the floors up under the settees to form mini-bulkheads there. This raises the sole which is unfortunate as there's not much head room in a 25 to start with. But it is the only way I see to strengthen the keel support throughout the hull to try to get her offshore. The Cal25 was not built with stringers and the such. Instead, the furniture is also the support for the boat. If the furniture's glass tape becomes loose, so does the hull and keel. Every part does a support job to decrease weight in the boat. Anyway, my 2 cents. Any aggreements or disagreements? Matt Collins "Lost Sailor" 1965 Cal 25 #104 Marathon, Fl lo… [at] yahoo.com

Wow, Wow! An empirical, and therefore scientific analysis of where the keel wobble flex is occurring. Who'dah thunk it was actually flexing in the floor of the hull? It might be worth studying what one famous, but whose name escapes me, young man did with his Cal 25, before taking off on a singlehanded circumnavigation. On a trip from the west coast to the east coast via the panama canal, and transiting the Carribean, he encountered quite a bit of hull flexure that made him rethink taking a stock Cal on any further blue water expedition. My recollection is he gutted the interior and beefed up the hull with longitudinal stringers beside doing ??? Jerry Sobel Cal 24 Oldie #71 --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Jerry Garcia <lo… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: From: Jerry Garcia <lo… [at] yahoo.com> Subject: [Cal_Boats] keel wobble To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 9:42 PM Hi Y'all,   I'm rebuilding my Cal and have checked out the keel wobble thing.  My original mini-keel bulkheads are gone but I have replaced them.   Although this lessens the support, to see where the keel wobble is at, it is best to not have the sole in place.  Straddling the keel and applying pressure alternatively from side to side makes the keel swing wildly in the water or in the sling.  One tends to look as far down the keel as possible to see how badly it is swinging.  This is not where the flexing is.   About where the beginning of the settee is on each side, or dinette, is where the flexing begins.  It continues further up through the thinner layers of glass under the settees.  In my Cal, the mini-bulkheads, glassed in sole, and settee bottoms and mini-bulkheads with-in them give the keel it's bit of wobblefreeness.   I'm building floors on the new mini-bulkheads of my keel, attatching a new sole to them and the hull, and extending the floors up under the settees to form mini-bulkheads there.  This raises the sole which is unfortunate as there's not much head room in a 25 to start with.  But it is the only way I see to strengthen the keel support throughout the hull to try to get her offshore.   The Cal25 was not built with stringers and the such.  Instead, the furniture is also the support for the boat.  If the furniture's glass tape becomes loose, so does the hull and keel.  Every part does a support job to decrease weight in the boat.   Anyway, my 2 cents.  Any aggreements or disagreements?   Matt Collins "Lost Sailor" 1965 Cal 25 #104 Marathon, Fl lostsailorinthekeys @yahoo.com

> It might be worth studying what one famous, but whose name escapes me, young man did with his Cal 25, before taking off on a singlehanded circumnavigation. On a trip from the west coast to the east coast via the panama canal, and transiting the Carribean, he encountered quite a bit of hull flexure that made him rethink taking a stock Cal on any further blue water expedition. > Link:http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/martin/martin133.html Here's what his web site says: " The hull of the Cal-25 flexed so much, that the builders engineered very few bulkheads for fear of creating hard spots. The bottom third portion of the main bulkheads, for example, are not even glassed to the hull. In 1984 I sailed DIRECTION (then a stock Cal-25 with few modifications) from Seattle to New England via the Panama Canal. By the journey's end I had pounded loose all of the v-berth bulkheading, and cracked the hull--all due to the effects of "oil canning". For DIRECTION to make it around the world, I realized the hull would need some attention. I began by cutting out the cockpit and removing every bulkhead from the interior. I sanded the hull back to clean glass. Basically, I started reconstruction from a bare hull. To begin, I fiberglassed 3 longitudinal stringers on each side of the hull's inner surface. One acted as a sheer clamp, one followed water line to stiffen the flatter sections, and the last one lay a couple feet off the center line. To prevent keel movement I added four, box-section keel floors, which tied into the lower stringers. I then added a thwart bulkhead five feet forward of the transom, and I added a ring bulkhead five feet aft of the bow. That phase of construction represented 500 hours of labor and, 45 gallons of polyester resin, and hundreds of yards of chop strand and woven roving. The new cockpit I built resembled a J-24 cockpit with a shallow floor and wide gunwales. I made a water tight stern locker between the transom and the new aft bulkhead. The gaping hole in the deck created by the pop-top was covered by a solid dog house. The new companionway measured 18 inches by 24. It was a nuisance getting in and out of the cabin, but it gave breaking waves very little opportunity for entry. I replaced the molded fiberglass deck hatch with an alloy hatch made by Bomar. I rebuilt the mast using heavier tangs, bolts, and spreaders. I used 1/4 inch rigging wire and large turnbuckles. I added new chain plates so that the mast could have split lower shrouds. I built a new cabin interior with settees instead of the traditional Cal-25 dinette and galley arrangement. The new settees, which were amidships, and below the waterline, were able to contain a three month supply of food (for two persons), and a multitude of spare parts and liquids. For water storage I had 25 gallons in built-in tanks, 20 gallons in Jerry jugs (stowed below the waterline in the stern locker), and 15 gallons of water placed randomly under the settees in one gallon-sized, plastic apple juice bottles. At the end of the DIRECTION project I had poured 8,000 dollars and 1200 hours into her. The final product was a sea going ocean machine costing less than 15,000 dollars, all told. Sure, 25 feet is small, but size is a mental game. If the dream is to sail around the world, you can get used to anything."

I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP!

Hi Joe Here's my situation. I have a 1970 Cal29 that I bought in Aug. of 2015. Last summer, I attempted to motor through an opening in a break wall and ended up on some rocks. Assessing the damage afterward, the only thing we could see was, inside the engine/ battery compartment, the tabbing where the side plywood panels met the front panel slightly separated. No leaks, no other visible damage. Upon lifting out for the winter, the yardman says," hey, you have a little swing in your keel". Sure enough, you could move it from side to side maybe any inch to an inch and a quarter to each side. I don't remember it doing that before although I am not positive that it didn't. I called the previous owner and they did not remember whether or not there was any movement there. I assumed that it might have been a result of the rocks. Looking at the keel, the damage from the collision was about 4-5 inches up from the bottom and a little scraping on the bottom. I thoroughly inspected the exterior and the interior with a fine tooth comb. I mean every bulk head, every panel, everywhere two sections met and found not even a hairline crack. Not only I, but I also had the insurance adjuster spent two hours going over it , I had a marine engineer spend three hours looking at it, the marine repair shop, MarineWorx, looked at it at least five times and he has a friend that worked for Tartan Marine that is right next door to us in Fairport Harbor look at it twice and nobody could see any issue that might be causing the swing. The marine engineer recommended putting three bulk heads in the bilge area from where the bilge floor up to the cabin floor. Kevin, from MarineWorx and his friend from Tartan decided that putting cross bracing in the bilge would work. The final decision is that we aren't going to touch it. Kevin was honest enough to come forward and say that he and his friend hashed this over quite a few times and what I kind of felt all along. The intended repairs might not make any difference and he wouldn't want to see me spend $3,000.00 for nothing. After the incident, we kept on sailing. I didn't notice any difference in performance or any thing else that might have been related to it. So we intend to just continue to sail it, keeping a close eye on the condition of the boat as we do. I feel that if something does start to go wrong, it would be in the form of maybe a crack developing and get worse over time. At that point we could actually see a prioblem and address it. I am not worried that I will be out in the middle of Lake Erie and the keel is going to fall off. When it first happened, I posted the issue on this forum. One or two responded that they had seen this kind of thing before and it wasn't a problem. I hope this has been of some help and comfort to you and I wish you many safe and happy years sailing a great, well constructed vessel. If you have any questions, please call me at 216-392-2220. Bon Voyage, Ken On Saturday, May 27, 2017 2:35 PM, "jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: [Attachment(s) from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] included below] I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP!

Ken, thank you so much for your response. The only thing I've ever hit is a couple of sandbars and all that damages is your pride. I haven't had a marine engineer look at mine although the yard where I'm going next week to change out my halyards and have a sheave inspected says they have an engineer who comes in on a consulting basis is there's a question of a problem. I explained this issue to a marina and boatyard owner who is also a surveyor in a nearby town and he doesn't think it's a problem based on what I told him. He said he'd ne leery of stiffeners or stringers of any kind because they might cause stress in areas not meant to be stressed. There's a Cal Boats facebook page and one of the owners there mentioned doing the keel partitions like you described but, as you said, it's a lot of work and expense and is it worth it? This afternoon an older fellow, ex navy, captain's licenses galore, many years of sailing and sailboat knowledge came over and looked at my boat. His first comment was how jealous he was of me for having such a grand old boat that's been so well restored and maintained. Then he got down on his arthritic knees, took a flashlight and began inspecting the keel space. After minutes of searching and tapping, he said he didn't think there was anything to be worried about as there was no sign of anything inside on the glass that might point to trouble. The only thing he noted was that the layer of fiberglass that covers the top of the ballast plug is cracked in a couple of places but that wouldn't have anything to do with the issue I've been concerned about and that maybe the only thing I might do there is just sand it and put another layer of glass over it. A fiberglass guy here who's a whiz at every aspect of boat construction says leave it alone, as does a young man who works in the boat repair shop across the street from my marina. He's a Canadian fellow who's had and raced boats all his life and tells me to stop obsessing. It's my nature. But I'm starting to get the feeling that it truly is no big deal after all. I see that another poster has chimed in on this so I'm going to move along. Thanks again for your help. I'm in Florida and will post some photos of my boat. On Saturday, May 27, 2017 3:32 PM, "Ken Gawry kw… [at] sbcglobal.net [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Hi Joe Here's my situation. I have a 1970 Cal29 that I bought in Aug. of 2015. Last summer, I attempted to motor through an opening in a break wall and ended up on some rocks. Assessing the damage afterward, the only thing we could see was, inside the engine/ battery compartment, the tabbing where the side plywood panels met the front panel slightly separated. No leaks, no other visible damage. Upon lifting out for the winter, the yardman says," hey, you have a little swing in your keel". Sure enough, you could move it from side to side maybe any inch to an inch and a quarter to each side. I don't remember it doing that before although I am not positive that it didn't. I called the previous owner and they did not remember whether or not there was any movement there. I assumed that it might have been a result of the rocks. Looking at the keel, the damage from the collision was about 4-5 inches up from the bottom and a little scraping on the bottom. I thoroughly inspected the exterior and the interior with a fine tooth comb. I mean every bulk head, every panel, everywhere two sections met and found not even a hairline crack. Not only I, but I also had the insurance adjuster spent two hours going over it , I had a marine engineer spend three hours looking at it, the marine repair shop, MarineWorx, looked at it at least five times and he has a friend that worked for Tartan Marine that is right next door to us in Fairport Harbor look at it twice and nobody could see any issue that might be causing the swing. The marine engineer recommended putting three bulk heads in the bilge area from where the bilge floor up to the cabin floor. Kevin, from MarineWorx and his friend from Tartan decided that putting cross bracing in the bilge would work. The final decision is that we aren't going to touch it. Kevin was honest enough to come forward and say that he and his friend hashed this over quite a few times and what I kind of felt all along. The intended repairs might not make any difference and he wouldn't want to see me spend $3,000.00 for nothing. After the incident, we kept on sailing. I didn't notice any difference in performance or any thing else that might have been related to it. So we intend to just continue to sail it, keeping a close eye on the condition of the boat as we do. I feel that if something does start to go wrong, it would be in the form of maybe a crack developing and get worse over time. At that point we could actually see a prioblem and address it. I am not worried that I will be out in the middle of Lake Erie and the keel is going to fall off. When it first happened, I posted the issue on this forum. One or two responded that they had seen this kind of thing before and it wasn't a problem. I hope this has been of some help and comfort to you and I wish you many safe and happy years sailing a great, well constructed vessel. If you have any questions, please call me at 216-392-2220. Bon Voyage, Ken On Saturday, May 27, 2017 2:35 PM, "jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: [Attachment(s) from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] included below] I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP!

To my understanding, excessive keel wiggle in old Cals can be a problem. I briefly owned a very early Cal 25 which had been a Navy training vessel in San Diego and didn't like the feel of way the boat's keel did the "hoochy-koo" while cresting a swell. There's an interesting series on Youtube about a Cal 40 being gutted and having the floor of it's hull reinforced with layers of Fiberglas to address this problem. And our sites own Wilke did something like this to his Cal 29, to great expense, but was very please with the results. My Cal 24-1 doesn't have this problem because it has a full length cut-away forefoot keel. I guess having a flat bottom is the price you pay for having a boat that can surf and skedaddle pretty well on a broad reach. Now, whether the keel will snap off and sink the boat anytime soon is debatable, but I understand it has happened to at least one boat, according to one late Cal Boat factory engineer and Fiberglas laminate expert. How lucky do you feel, and how much do you love your boat, and maybe, how rough are the seas you sail in? The foam between the hull and lower deck idea sounds interesting, but I'd fershure want something that didn't readily absorb water. Jerry of Shpritz On Saturday, May 27, 2017 11:34 AM, "jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: [Attachment(s) from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] included below] I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP!

Thanks, Gerald. In order to reinforce the rounding of the keel inside my Cal 28 I'd have to removed a big section of the floor in the salon. I don't know if I have the guts to do that and then try to replace the floor. There are so many different answers to this question that it gets mind boggling. My wife and I love our boat and don't want to part with it but I'm limited as to how much more money I can afford to sink into it. On the other hand, I don't want to go sailing in a boat that could do something disastrous. Our sailing has mostly been limited to the sounds and intracoastal waterway in our area with some sailing just offshore. We've not made any substantial trips in it because my wife only retired recently. We've been thinking about maybe sailing to the Florida Keys or Bahamas but this situation has me nervous and my discomfort now has my wife unsettled. It troubles me to know that at least one Cal has indeed suffered a keel failure. I have a friend who's a fiberglass expert who said we can sand down to bare fiberglass somewhere outside the boat at the rounding of the keel and check for resin starvation as someone here, I think it was Jim, has suggested and check for resin starvation. My friend tells me that if we discover that, it might be wise to go down to bare glass all the way around and lay in a layer or two of biaxial cloth between keel and hull. But he also says because the glass at the rounding of the keel inside the boat, at least that which is readily visible and accessible, is sound and doesn't show cracking o crazing or other signs of distress, that it's probably nothing to be concerned about. Thanks for you input. It gives me more to consider. When I haul it later this week it'll be examined by an expert who I'm told will be able to access it and give me a solid opinion. Guess I'll have to wait and see. On Monday, May 29, 2017 5:56 PM, "Gerald Sobel so… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: To my understanding, excessive keel wiggle in old Cals can be a problem. I briefly owned a very early Cal 25 which had been a Navy training vessel in San Diego and didn't like the feel of way the boat's keel did the "hoochy-koo" while cresting a swell. There's an interesting series on Youtube about a Cal 40 being gutted and having the floor of it's hull reinforced with layers of Fiberglas to address this problem. And our sites own Wilke did something like this to his Cal 29, to great expense, but was very please with the results. My Cal 24-1 doesn't have this problem because it has a full length cut-away forefoot keel. I guess having a flat bottom is the price you pay for having a boat that can surf and skedaddle pretty well on a broad reach. Now, whether the keel will snap off and sink the boat anytime soon is debatable, but I understand it has happened to at least one boat, according to one late Cal Boat factory engineer and Fiberglas laminate expert. How lucky do you feel, and how much do you love your boat, and maybe, how rough are the seas you sail in? The foam between the hull and lower deck idea sounds interesting, but I'd fershure want something that didn't readily absorb water. Jerry of Shpritz On Saturday, May 27, 2017 11:34 AM, "jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: [Attachment(s) from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] included below] I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP!

Hey Joe, I have a 1968 Cal 28 which I keep on Lake Erie in Monroe Michigan. There are a lot of bits that wobble on my old boat but I am almost 100% certain that there is zero wobble in my keel. Good Luck! Bill

Thanks, Bill. Yeah, this situation is really starting to get worrisome. Coincidentally, the former owner of my boat, an older fellow named Roger Brown, had this boat on Lake Michigan before trucking it down here to Florida about 15 years ago where he raced it all the time. Other than this keel issue, it's a great boat and we love it. I'm hearing from lots of different owners and people familiar with these boats who tell me it's a common issue with them. The question is what exactly to do to address it. Some say it's no big deal, leave it alone and others say it needs fixing, with varying degrees of suggestions as to how best to go about it. I have a lot of thinking to do in the next few days. Thanks again for your response. joe

On 5/27/2017 2:34 PM, jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] > included below] > > I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a > problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush > deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard > manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side > to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a > little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they > tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the > other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass > is supposed to flex. > What the heck, I'll toss in some advice. Seems like there are two issues. One is whether the keel flex is OK. The other is whether it drives you nuts with worry. As to the first, that has been a subject of discussion from time to time on this list and nobody has ever reported a keel breaking off. But I also saw the advice about possible weakening of laminates over time, which makes some sense. In metals you have issues like work hardening and fatigue. It makes sense that glass/plastic laminates would have similar effects. You could address that issue and also solve the second problem--the gnawing worry--by adding laminations inside at the turn of the bilge. In wooden boats, that was the garboard, and it was subject to stresses that made it a leak-prone area. So lift up your sole (the part you walk on--in boats, floors are athwartships structural members above the keel) and clean things up and epoxy in some layers of glass, tapering them as you do. Flex in itself isn't evil. The general mantra is that rigid structures fail and flexible ones survive. But too much flex can lead to eventual materials failure and to mental anguish. So solve the problem at the cost of some epoxy and glass and your labor. The first two are expensive and the last one is rewarding. Nothing pays you back quite as much as finishing a job you've done well and that you can stand back to admire. Chris Campbell

All solid glass hulls wobble. Cored hulls not so much. If its dropped onto the ground or falls over while on stands and it cracks, thats another story. As long as the boats tabbed together and as your friend noticed, no visible cracks you have nothing to worry about. Best Regards, George Macon From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> on behalf of jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2017 6:34 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Keel wobble [1 Attachment] [Attachment(s) from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] included below] I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP!

Thanks to all for your helpful responses and suggestions about my keel issue. There is one other question unrelated that comes to mind about the Cal 28. The specs for the original boats say it weighs 6,000 lb. When mine was hauled last summer, the lift operator said it weighed a little more than 9,000 lb. I looked at the scale and he was correct. Since then, some former employees of that yard have told me that travel lift hasn't been properly maintained so who knows if that was a correct weight. What should one weigh all loaded up with gear and extras? Mine no longer has the Atomic 4 engine because I removed it and replaced it with an outboard.

I had a 1974 Cal-25 with keel wiggle, which I noticed several years after I bought it. I was concerned about it and spoke to several Cal-25 owners and actually went aboard another boat to test it. Some owners were unaware of any wiggle on their boats, but had never particularly looked for it. One person whose much older boat had been sailed hard said his keel wiggled when crossing wakes or coming off large waves. Mine didn’t do that, but if, while in the slings being hauled, I stood on the hull at the companionway, about a foot or so forward of where the keel opening taper comes back together and shifted my weight from one foot to the other the keel would wiggle. The other boat I examined had some wiggle, but not as much as mine, but this test was conducted while the boat was in the water which, I suspect, would significantly damp side-to-side motion of the keel. IIRC I estimated my keel was moving about ½” - ¾” at the bottom. I made some measurements and constructed a single line model of the hull cross section. I assumed that the keel was rigid and the only thing that was allowed to move was the attachment points where the keel attached to the hull. I did this many years ago so I don’t remember the exact results, but my analysis concluded that to get the observed amount of wiggle in the bottom of the keel the hull at the point where the keel is attached would have to move a very small distance vertically on each side. I convinced myself that the hull could easily flex that amount while supporting the 1200# ballast, and that the ballast, hanging on the end of a roughly 3 foot lever arm, could easily distort the hull by the amount I was seeing. I quit worrying about it. YMMV. Al Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 2:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; jo… [at] yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel wobble On 5/27/2017 2:34 PM, jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. What the heck, I'll toss in some advice. Seems like there are two issues. One is whether the keel flex is OK. The other is whether it drives you nuts with worry. As to the first, that has been a subject of discussion from time to time on this list and nobody has ever reported a keel breaking off. But I also saw the advice about possible weakening of laminates over time, which makes some sense. In metals you have issues like work hardening and fatigue. It makes sense that glass/plastic laminates would have similar effects. You could address that issue and also solve the second problem--the gnawing worry--by adding laminations inside at the turn of the bilge. In wooden boats, that was the garboard, and it was subject to stresses that made it a leak-prone area. So lift up your sole (the part you walk on--in boats, floors are athwartships structural members above the keel) and clean things up and epoxy in some layers of glass, tapering them as you do. Flex in itself isn't evil. The general mantra is that rigid structures fail and flexible ones survive. But too much flex can lead to eventual materials failure and to mental anguish. So solve the problem at the cost of some epoxy and glass and your labor. The first two are expensive and the last one is rewarding. Nothing pays you back quite as much as finishing a job you've done well and that you can stand back to admire. Chris Campbell

On 5/30/2017 5:00 PM, jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > Thanks to all for your helpful responses and suggestions about my keel > issue. There is one other question unrelated that comes to mind about > the Cal 28. The specs for the original boats say it weighs 6,000 lb. > When mine was hauled last summer, the lift operator said it weighed a > little more than 9,000 lb. I looked at the scale and he was correct. > Since then, some former employees of that yard have told me that > travel lift hasn't been properly maintained so who knows if that was a > correct weight. What should one weigh all loaded up with gear and > extras? Mine no longer has the Atomic 4 engine because I removed it > and replaced it with an outboard. I asked the lift operator how much my other boat weighed last fall. He said 4,500 lbs. That's right on-spec but it's a boat that's 56 years old and with all the usual stuff added inside--sails, equipment, goodies, junk. I was pleased that it was on-spec but also skeptical that the weight read-out was accurate. Ballpark range, maybe. Chris Campbell > > >

Thanks, Al. I might arrive at the same conclusion and just let it go. I'll wait to hear what the expert has to say when I haul it Friday and I'm able to see again for myself whether or not it's gotten any worse.

George, thanks for the information. It really isn't the keel that wobbles although it gives that impression. What really happens is the hull flexes at the turn of the keel. Some say it's to be expected when you have a 2,300lb ballasted keel hanging from a hull 1/4 inch thick. One question I do have for you and please forgive my ignorance. You said "as long as the boat's tabbed together and as your friend noticed, no visible cracks you have nothing to worry about." I'm not sure what you mean by the boat being tabbed together. To my knowledge, the only thing tabbing the boat together is the floor inside because there are no stringers or athwartship bulkheads or stiffeners. Can you clarify? Thanks.joe On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 3:23 PM, "george macon ge… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: All solid glass hulls wobble. Cored hulls not so much. If its dropped onto the ground or falls over while on stands and it cracks, thats another story. As long as the boats tabbed together and as your friend noticed, no visible cracks you have nothing to worry about. Best Regards,George Macon From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> on behalf of jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2017 6:34 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Keel wobble [1 Attachment] [Attachment(s) from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] included below]I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP!

For those concerned with the Cal keel "wiggle," the following may put your minds at ease: I purchased a Cal 27 Mark III ten years ago and have sailed it every winter on Charlotte Harbor in Florida. Loved the boat so much that my wife and I purchased a second Cal 27 Mark III for our summer home on Catawba Island in Lake Erie. I bought it last year and when it was delivered from its previous home in Minnesota, the marina crew noticed the keel's movement while in the sling moving from the truck to its cradle. We were shocked! I had the boat surveyed on the hard in Minnesota prior to purchase and, because it was on the hard sitting on its keel, the movement wasn't apparent. We suspected that the boat may have been damaged in transit and had it surveyed second time. The surveyor went over the boat thoroughly and pronounced it quite sea worthy. I raised my concern on this list and received numerous responses. Some felt sorry for me, but many others responded that their Cal's exhibited the same wiggle. We proceeded to sail the boat all summer, but kept a wary eye for any possible problem. Now for the interesting part: this past winter I took my Florida boat in for a bottom job and, you guessed it... its keel has an identical wiggle! I feel very comfortable and safe sailing both...David On Wednesday, May 31, 2017, 3:25:44 PM EDT, Joe Palmer jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: George, thanks for the information. It really isn't the keel that wobbles although it gives that impression. What really happens is the hull flexes at the turn of the keel. Some say it's to be expected when you have a 2,300lb ballasted keel hanging from a hull 1/4 inch thick. One question I do have for you and please forgive my ignorance. You said "as long as the boat's tabbed together and as your friend noticed, no visible cracks you have nothing to worry about." I'm not sure what you mean by the boat being tabbed together. To my knowledge, the only thing tabbing the boat together is the floor inside because there are no stringers or athwartship bulkheads or stiffeners. Can you clarify? Thanks.joe On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 3:23 PM, "george macon ge… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: All solid glass hulls wobble. Cored hulls not so much. If its dropped onto the ground or falls over while on stands and it cracks, thats another story. As long as the boats tabbed together and as your friend noticed, no visible cracks you have nothing to worry about. Best Regards,George Macon From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> on behalf of jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2017 6:34 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Keel wobble [1 Attachment] [Attachment(s) from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] included below]I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP!

Joe – I have owned my ’73 Cal 29 over 40 years. After seeing the keel swaying while in the Travelift I tried to do some analysis to decide what my level of concern should be. I bought a cheap laser pointer at Home Depot and attached it to the upper surface of the keel pointing to the overhead. I was amazed (and somewhat appalled) at what small rocking movements of the boat caused the laser to move wildly across the overhead. My next step was to go sailing and take some data. I rigged a 2 x 4 across the width of the cabin just below the sheer line with a scale and a simple inclinometer. I found the deflection was pretty much linear with heel angle with a deflection of about 1.2 degrees at a heel angle of 30 degrees. I also obtained a single data point with the laser attached to the cabin deck which inidicated that the deflection angle from that point was not much different than from the top of the keel. I also tried to do some simple finite element analysis of a 1 foot cross section of the boat. Without knowing the thickness of the hull (which varies from place to place) I knew the analysis would not be particularly accurate, but thought it might offer some insight into the structure and possible ways to stiffen the hull / keel interface. (Finite element analysis is also full of potential pitfalls regarding proper boundary conditions, interpretation of stresses, etc.). This was all three years ago before I got distracted with other obligations, so I didn’t get as far as I wanted in the analysis. My conclusions at this point are 1) I’m not particularly concerned with the magnitude of the deflection as it seems to be spread throughout the hull and not entirely concentrated at one location; 2) High stress areas are the fillet between the keel and hull (not surprising) and the flat surface just outboard of this fillet (a little more surprising); 3) I should periodically repeat the deflection measurements – I will be much more concerned it they are increasing with time; and 4) if I was to decide to do some reinforcement I would be inclined to add foam between the hull and the bottom of the cabin deck, in an attempt to create a sandwich construction in that area (as with any core the challenge is to get good adherence between the skin structure and the core). I would be interested in knowing if any other Cal owners (particularly of 29s) have measured their keel deflections and how they compare with my measurements. I will attempt to add an attachment – have not posted here before and not sure how attachments are handled.

I agree w your idea of foam csetters. If I did mine on my 29, I was going to grind out the floor tray down to the hull to about 8" of the side of the tray and use epoxy, colloidal silica and some high density foam, maybe thermo form it to get it to make the curve from the hull to the keel and glass it all in, possibly using carbon fiber right at the highest stress areas. I think the key is to create a very stiff corner, but taper that stiffness out to the rest of the hull. I don't plan on doing it till A) I have a year to commit to it and B) my boat gets delivered to my house, either by truck or trailer. :) East coast cal 29 sailor > On May 31, 2017, at 7:08 PM, cs… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > [Attachment(s) from cs… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats] included below] > Joe – I have owned my ’73 Cal 29 over 40 years. After seeing the keel swaying while in the Travelift I tried to do some analysis to decide what my level of concern should be. I bought a cheap laser pointer at Home Depot and attached it to the upper surface of the keel pointing to the overhead. I was amazed (and somewhat appalled) at what small rocking movements of the boat caused the laser to move wildly across the overhead. My next step was to go sailing and take some data. I rigged a 2 x 4 across the width of the cabin just below the sheer line with a scale and a simple inclinometer. I found the deflection was pretty much linear with heel angle with a deflection of about 1.2 degrees at a heel angle of 30 degrees. I also obtained a single data point with the laser attached to the cabin deck which inidicated that the deflection angle from that point was not much different than from the top of the keel. > > > > > > > > I also tried to do some simple finite element analysis of a 1 foot cross section of the boat. Without knowing the thickness of the hull (which varies from place to place) I knew the analysis would not be particularly accurate, but thought it might offer some insight into the structure and possible ways to stiffen the hull / keel interface. (Finite element analysis is also full of potential pitfalls regarding proper boundary conditions, interpretation of stresses, etc.). This was all three years ago before I got distracted with other obligations, so I didn’t get as far as I wanted in the analysis. > > > > My conclusions at this point are 1) I’m not particularly concerned with the magnitude of the deflection as it seems to be spread throughout the hull and not entirely concentrated at one location; 2) High stress areas are the fillet between the keel and hull (not surprising) and the flat surface just outboard of this fillet (a little more surprising); 3) I should periodically repeat the deflection measurements – I will be much more concerned it they are increasing with time; and 4) if I was to decide to do some reinforcement I would be inclined to add foam between the hull and the bottom of the cabin deck, in an attempt to create a sandwich construction in that area (as with any core the challenge is to get good adherence between the skin structure and the core). > > > > I would be interested in knowing if any other Cal owners (particularly of 29s) have measured their keel deflections and how they compare with my measurements. I will attempt to add an attachment – have not posted here before and not sure how attachments are handled. > > > >

Cal Buddies, I love this list and have been on it for over 20 years. I follow the list, scanning topics and noting what’s going on, but I don’t make time to be involved. My life has moved me in different directions. Mariposa sits neglected and I will most likely sell her to somebody that wants to carry the torch... The discussion of keel wobble got me interested enough to take a little time and I dug up this post in the archives. If you go to the Cal Group home page you can search topics back for years. I posted this one in 2008 after totally rebuilding my keep and bilge area. It was a total success - and a rediculous amount of work and expense for a boat approaching 40 years old, but I love her so. Fin Bevin hooked me up with a couple of very famous SoCal boat builders, and I also relied on the advise of the late Roger Jones, who many of you know worked with Jack Jensen and Bill Lapworth back in the day, and also the advise of Mike Pyzell, a very experienced Central Coast surveyor, in the design and implementation of a keel stiffening effort. My keel wobble sounds like it was quite a bit worse than the current discussion. Here is just one of many posts that I put out back in 2008 that kind of sums up what I did: My Cal 29 had an alarming amount of wiggle when the boat came out of the water a few years ago. I consulted with many, including the late Roger Jones, who said it was not normal and the horizontal surface cracks were a sign of looming dangerous problems. I am pretty sure that the main fault was broken tabbing and a compromised floor pan and engine stringer construction. It looked like somebody hacked out the original fiberglass engine stringers to replace the faryman diesel with a BMW D12, but judging by photos I've seen online, it may be that the vertical wooden engine stringers were glassed in by the factory when they decided to add the diesel option. My opinion is that this, along with really light weight and crummy tabbing caused the keel to flex more than it was designed to, thus weakening the layup. My cure was to cut out the salon sole from the pan, grind out all of the oily, soggy matt that was loosely glued under the sole, reinforce the keel box, redesign the floors, replace the cabin sole with plywood and re-tab everything. It was a huge job, and I should have just thrown poor old Mariposa away instead of spending the money, but I've gone too far with her for that. I had two helpers when it was time to lay the tri-ax panels in and through the bilge. One saturated the cloth in a special pan in the cockpit, and the other took the cloth and handed it down, while I rolled and squeegied it in. We used release cloth at the end of the day, but mostly applied layers to green layers to avoid sanding and created a cross-linked chemical bond. After the keel and hull were reinforced, I epoxied in 2 layers of 1/4 marine plywood, followed by a 1/4 plywood teak and holly veneer. It worked out beautifully, and she sails very stiff. She accelerates into the puffs instead of yawing. I am sorry to say that I lost all of the photos that I had taken to document this process -- my hard drive crashed and my backup disc had failed me as well. Wilkie

On 5/31/2017 7:08 PM, cs… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from cs… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats] > included below] > > Joe – I have owned my ’73 Cal 29 over 40 years.After seeing the keel > swaying while in the Travelift I tried to do some analysis to decide > what my level of concern should be.I bought a cheap laser pointer at > Home Depot and attached it to the upper surface of the keel pointing > to the overhead.I was amazed (and somewhat appalled) at what small > rocking movements of the boat caused the laser to move wildly across > the overhead.My next step was to go sailing and take some data. > It's always interesting to see observed data after we've all been flinging opinions. The good news is that the data seem to match our guesses. The flex is at the garboard area and it's not (at least as you measured it on your boat) too severe. Change over time would seem to be the big issue. Thanks for sharing your information and for taking the time to gather it. Chris Campbell

Wilkie,Thanks for your post. I believe Roger Jones mentioned the story of the Cal that had lost it's keel, going down and taking hundreds of lives with it, in a disaster that rivals the sinking of the Titanic; all the more tragic because the story didn't get the media coverage of that famous sinking in 1912. OK, so..... maybe they weren't human lives, but the lives of little bugs and mites and spiders and bacteria that live under the cabin decks of all our boats. But I'm sure their lives meant everything to them even if their family members living ashore or on other Cal boats might have been oblivious to their demise. Jerry of Shpritz On Thursday, June 1, 2017 9:45 AM, "ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: On 5/31/2017 7:08 PM, cs… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: Joe – I have owned my ’73 Cal 29 over 40 years. After seeing the keel swaying while in the Travelift I tried to do some analysis to decide what my level of concern should be. I bought a cheap laser pointer at Home Depot and attached it to the upper surface of the keel pointing to the overhead. I was amazed (and somewhat appalled) at what small rocking movements of the boat caused the laser to move wildly across the overhead. My next step was to go sailing and take some data. It's always interesting to see observed data after we've all been flinging opinions. The good news is that the data seem to match our guesses. The flex is at the garboard area and it's not (at least as you measured it on your boat) too severe. Change over time would seem to be the big issue. Thanks for sharing your information and for taking the time to gather it. Chris Campbell

I note my 1974 Cal 27 T/2 came with bilge bulkheads factory installed. Evidently this was a design addition to combat wobble? Reggie Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook> From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> on behalf of David Owen dw… [at] mac.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 9:00 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; Jim Englert Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Re: Keel wobble Cal Buddies, I love this list and have been on it for over 20 years. I follow the list, scanning topics and noting what’s going on, but I don’t make time to be involved. My life has moved me in different directions. Mariposa sits neglected and I will most likely sell her to somebody that wants to carry the torch... The discussion of keel wobble got me interested enough to take a little time and I dug up this post in the archives. If you go to the Cal Group home page you can search topics back for years. I posted this one in 2008 after totally rebuilding my keep and bilge area. It was a total success - and a rediculous amount of work and expense for a boat approaching 40 years old, but I love her so. Fin Bevin hooked me up with a couple of very famous SoCal boat builders, and I also relied on the advise of the late Roger Jones, who many of you know worked with Jack Jensen and Bill Lapworth back in the day, and also the advise of Mike Pyzell, a very experienced Central Coast surveyor, in the design and implementation of a keel stiffening effort. My keel wobble sounds like it was quite a bit worse than the current discussion. Here is just one of many posts that I put out back in 2008 that kind of sums up what I did: My Cal 29 had an alarming amount of wiggle when the boat came out of the water a few years ago. I consulted with many, including the late Roger Jones, who said it was not normal and the horizontal surface cracks were a sign of looming dangerous problems. I am pretty sure that the main fault was broken tabbing and a compromised floor pan and engine stringer construction. It looked like somebody hacked out the original fiberglass engine stringers to replace the faryman diesel with a BMW D12, but judging by photos I've seen online, it may be that the vertical wooden engine stringers were glassed in by the factory when they decided to add the diesel option. My opinion is that this, along with really light weight and crummy tabbing caused the keel to flex more than it was designed to, thus weakening the layup. My cure was to cut out the salon sole from the pan, grind out all of the oily, soggy matt that was loosely glued under the sole, reinforce the keel box, redesign the floors, replace the cabin sole with plywood and re-tab everything. It was a huge job, and I should have just thrown poor old Mariposa away instead of spending the money, but I've gone too far with her for that. I had two helpers when it was time to lay the tri-ax panels in and through the bilge. One saturated the cloth in a special pan in the cockpit, and the other took the cloth and handed it down, while I rolled and squeegied it in. We used release cloth at the end of the day, but mostly applied layers to green layers to avoid sanding and created a cross-linked chemical bond. After the keel and hull were reinforced, I epoxied in 2 layers of 1/4 marine plywood, followed by a 1/4 plywood teak and holly veneer. It worked out beautifully, and she sails very stiff. She accelerates into the puffs instead of yawing. I am sorry to say that I lost all of the photos that I had taken to document this process -- my hard drive crashed and my backup disc had failed me as well. Wilkie

I am no boat designer, but I would think that something should not be wiggling. Wiggling will cause fatigue and at some point something is going to give. You bend a nail back and forth and at some point it breaks. I had some experience with something similar back in the 80's. My wife and my first boat was an older Catalina 22. The rudder can flip up and get pushed all the way down, pivoting in a bracket. I being very knew to sailing anything other than a sailing skiff and been given no instruction on operation, sometimes I would not push the rudder all the way down, so that is was totally straight down. So, we are sailing back from Tangier and all of a sudden the rudder snapped off and we started spinning around. I dropped the sail motored back to port. I talked to the dealer that sold me the used boat. Explained what happened, rudder snapped off. He asked if I had the rudder all the way down. I honestly said no. He said that would cause the rudder to flex and over time it was bound to break, which it did. New rudder was $275. I always kept it straight down from then on. Leslie Puffin Cal 33-2 On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:32 PM, Ken Gawry kw… [at] sbcglobal.net [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Hi Joe > Here's my situation. I have a 1970 Cal29 that I bought in Aug. of > 2015. Last summer, I attempted to motor through an opening in a break wall > and ended up on some rocks. Assessing the damage afterward, the only thing > we could see was, inside the engine/ battery compartment, the tabbing where > the side plywood panels met the front panel slightly separated. No leaks, > no other visible damage. Upon lifting out for the winter, the yardman > says," hey, you have a little swing in your keel". Sure enough, you could > move it from side to side maybe any inch to an inch and a quarter to each > side. I don't remember it doing that before although I am not positive > that it didn't. I called the previous owner and they did not remember > whether or not there was any movement there. I assumed that it might have > been a result of the rocks. Looking at the keel, the damage from the > collision was about 4-5 inches up from the bottom and a little scraping on > the bottom. > *I thoroughly inspected the exterior and the interior with a fine > tooth comb. I mean every bulk head, every panel, everywhere two sections > met and found not even a hairline crack. Not only I, but I also had the > insurance adjuster spent two hours going over it , I had a marine engineer > spend three hours looking at it, the marine repair shop, MarineWorx, looked > at it at least five times and he has a friend that worked for Tartan Marine > that is right next door to us in Fairport Harbor look at it twice and > nobody could see any issue that might be causing the swing.* > > * The marine engineer recommended putting three bulk heads in the > bilge area from where the bilge floor up to the cabin floor. Kevin, from > MarineWorx and his friend from Tartan decided that putting cross bracing in > the bilge would work. The final decision is that we aren't going to touch > it. Kevin was honest enough to come forward and say that he and his friend > hashed this over quite a few times and what I kind of felt all along. The > intended repairs might not make any difference and he wouldn't want to see > me spend $3,000.00 for nothing. * > > * After the incident, we kept on sailing. I didn't notice any > difference in performance or any thing else that might have been related to > it. So we intend to just continue to sail it, keeping a close eye on the > condition of the boat as we do. I feel that if something does start to go > wrong, it would be in the form of maybe a crack developing and get worse > over time. At that point we could actually see a prioblem and address it. > I am not worried that I will be out in the middle of Lake Erie and the keel > is going to fall off. When it first happened, I posted the issue on this > forum. One or two responded that they had seen this kind of thing before > and it wasn't a problem. * > * I hope this has been of some help and comfort to you and I wish you > many safe and happy years sailing a great, well constructed vessel. If you > have any questions, please call me at 216-392-2220 <(216)%20392-2220>.* > > *Bon Voyage, Ken* > > > On Saturday, May 27, 2017 2:35 PM, "jo… [at] yahoo.com > [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > [Attachment(s) > <https://mg.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.partner=sbc&.rand=a070duv3ge7rn#TopText> > from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] included below] > I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a > problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. > When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked > out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the > slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to > side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the > keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at > it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't > the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done > a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal > 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with > Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say > add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up > stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the > keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's > a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for > something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it > could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there > consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do > is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this > beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't > need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be > told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP! > > > > > >

There is an extensive video article about a Cal 40 in the California East Bay that is being torn down and rebuilt to better than new. There is a discussion of what they did to the hull to deal stiffen up and reinforce the keel against wobble fatigue, which I understand is also due to the flexing of the relatively flat bottom areas of the boat on both sides of the fin keel. It's a treasure trove of information on anyone who wants to dig deeply into the ultimate rejuvenation of an old Cal.Jerry of Shpritz, the oldest actively raced Cal on this here list (??). On Monday, June 12, 2017 1:16 PM, "NEWMAN d2… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: I am no boat designer, but I would think that something should not be wiggling. Wiggling will cause fatigue and at some point something is going to give. You bend a nail back and forth and at some point it breaks. I had some experience with something similar back in the 80's. My wife and my first boat was an older Catalina 22. The rudder can flip up and get pushed all the way down, pivoting in a bracket. I being very knew to sailing anything other than a sailing skiff and been given no instruction on operation, sometimes I would not push the rudder all the way down, so that is was totally straight down. So, we are sailing back from Tangier and all of a sudden the rudder snapped off and we started spinning around. I dropped the sail motored back to port. I talked to the dealer that sold me the used boat. Explained what happened, rudder snapped off. He asked if I had the rudder all the way down. I honestly said no. He said that would cause the rudder to flex and over time it was bound to break, which it did. New rudder was $275. I always kept it straight down from then on.LesliePuffin Cal 33-2 On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:32 PM, Ken Gawry kw… [at] sbcglobal.net [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Hi Joe Here's my situation. I have a 1970 Cal29 that I bought in Aug. of 2015. Last summer, I attempted to motor through an opening in a break wall and ended up on some rocks. Assessing the damage afterward, the only thing we could see was, inside the engine/ battery compartment, the tabbing where the side plywood panels met the front panel slightly separated. No leaks, no other visible damage. Upon lifting out for the winter, the yardman says," hey, you have a little swing in your keel". Sure enough, you could move it from side to side maybe any inch to an inch and a quarter to each side. I don't remember it doing that before although I am not positive that it didn't. I called the previous owner and they did not remember whether or not there was any movement there. I assumed that it might have been a result of the rocks. Looking at the keel, the damage from the collision was about 4-5 inches up from the bottom and a little scraping on the bottom. I thoroughly inspected the exterior and the interior with a fine tooth comb. I mean every bulk head, every panel, everywhere two sections met and found not even a hairline crack. Not only I, but I also had the insurance adjuster spent two hours going over it , I had a marine engineer spend three hours looking at it, the marine repair shop, MarineWorx, looked at it at least five times and he has a friend that worked for Tartan Marine that is right next door to us in Fairport Harbor look at it twice and nobody could see any issue that might be causing the swing. The marine engineer recommended putting three bulk heads in the bilge area from where the bilge floor up to the cabin floor. Kevin, from MarineWorx and his friend from Tartan decided that putting cross bracing in the bilge would work. The final decision is that we aren't going to touch it. Kevin was honest enough to come forward and say that he and his friend hashed this over quite a few times and what I kind of felt all along. The intended repairs might not make any difference and he wouldn't want to see me spend $3,000.00 for nothing. After the incident, we kept on sailing. I didn't notice any difference in performance or any thing else that might have been related to it. So we intend to just continue to sail it, keeping a close eye on the condition of the boat as we do. I feel that if something does start to go wrong, it would be in the form of maybe a crack developing and get worse over time. At that point we could actually see a prioblem and address it. I am not worried that I will be out in the middle of Lake Erie and the keel is going to fall off. When it first happened, I posted the issue on this forum. One or two responded that they had seen this kind of thing before and it wasn't a problem. I hope this has been of some help and comfort to you and I wish you many safe and happy years sailing a great, well constructed vessel. If you have any questions, please call me at 216-392-2220. Bon Voyage, Ken On Saturday, May 27, 2017 2:35 PM, "jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: [Attachment(s) from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] included below] I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP!

For those concerned with the Cal keel "wiggle," the following may put your minds at ease: I purchased a Cal 27 Mark III ten years ago and have sailed it every winter on Charlotte Harbor in Florida. Loved the boat so much that my wife and I purchased a second Cal 27 Mark III for our summer home on Catawba Island in Lake Erie. I bought it last year and when it was delivered from its previous home in Minnesota, the marina crew noticed the keel's movement while in the sling moving from the truck to its cradle. We were shocked! I had the boat surveyed on the hard in Minnesota prior to purchase and, because it was on the hard sitting on its keel, the movement wasn't apparent. We suspected that the boat may have been damaged in transit and had it surveyed second time. The surveyor went over the boat thoroughly and pronounced it quite sea worthy. I raised my concern on this list and received numerous responses. Some felt sorry for me, but many others responded that their Cal's exhibited the same wiggle. We proceeded to sail the boat all summer, but kept a wary eye for any possible problem. Now for the interesting part: this past winter I took my Florida boat in for a bottom job and, you guessed it... its keel has an identical wiggle! I feel very comfortable and safe sailing both...DavidOn Wednesday, May 31, 2017, 6:42:23 PM EDT, David Field <fi… [at] yahoo.com> wrote: For those concerned with the Cal keel "wiggle," the following may put your minds at ease: I purchased a Cal 27 Mark III ten years ago and have sailed it every winter on Charlotte Harbor in Florida. Loved the boat so much that my wife and I purchased a second Cal 27 Mark III for our summer home on Catawba Island in Lake Erie. I bought it last year and when it was delivered from its previous home in Minnesota, the marina crew noticed the keel's movement while in the sling moving from the truck to its cradle. We were shocked! I had the boat surveyed on the hard in Minnesota prior to purchase and, because it was on the hard sitting on its keel, the movement wasn't apparent. We suspected that the boat may have been damaged in transit and had it surveyed second time. The surveyor went over the boat thoroughly and pronounced it quite sea worthy. I raised my concern on this list and received numerous responses. Some felt sorry for me, but many others responded that their Cal's exhibited the same wiggle. We proceeded to sail the boat all summer, but kept a wary eye for any possible problem. Now for the interesting part: this past winter I took my Florida boat in for a bottom job and, you guessed it... its keel has an identical wiggle! I feel very comfortable and safe sailing both...David On Wednesday, May 31, 2017, 3:25:44 PM EDT, Joe Palmer jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: George, thanks for the information. It really isn't the keel that wobbles although it gives that impression. What really happens is the hull flexes at the turn of the keel. Some say it's to be expected when you have a 2,300lb ballasted keel hanging from a hull 1/4 inch thick. One question I do have for you and please forgive my ignorance. You said "as long as the boat's tabbed together and as your friend noticed, no visible cracks you have nothing to worry about." I'm not sure what you mean by the boat being tabbed together. To my knowledge, the only thing tabbing the boat together is the floor inside because there are no stringers or athwartship bulkheads or stiffeners. Can you clarify? Thanks.joe On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 3:23 PM, "george macon ge… [at] hotmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: All solid glass hulls wobble. Cored hulls not so much. If its dropped onto the ground or falls over while on stands and it cracks, thats another story. As long as the boats tabbed together and as your friend noticed, no visible cracks you have nothing to worry about. Best Regards,George Macon From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> on behalf of jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2017 6:34 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Cal_Boats] Keel wobble [1 Attachment] [Attachment(s) from jo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] included below]I'm looking for some solid information about what might or might be a problem as relates to "keel wobble" on my restored 1969 Cal 28 flush deck. When I hauled it for a project, the lift operator and yard manager freaked out because they could see the keel swaying from side to side in the slings. I looked at it and could actually move it a little from side to side with my hands. They told me that when they tried to block it that the keel wanted to tweak to one side or the other. My fiberglass guy looked at it and announced no big deal, glass is supposed to flex. Actually, it isn't the keel itself but the actual glass at the rounding of the keel. I've done a lot of research on this and I'm trying to get some answers from other Cal 28 owners. I've done a bit of research and apparently this is a thing with Cal boats and many say it's no big deal and to leave it alone. Others say add keel stiffeners and others say it's a bad idea because it sets up stress points that aren't supposed to be there. Two suggested filling the keel space under the sole with liquid closed cell foam and others say it's a waste of time. I'm scheduled to go into the yard next Friday for something else and when I mentioned this to the yard manager he said it could be a problem that needs addressing or it might be and that there consulting expert could tell by looking at it. The last thing I want to do is get into an unnecessary project. I've spent three years bringing this beauty back to life and all I want to do is sail, not fix things that don't need it. But if it does need addressing I will do it but I don't want to be told it's something I need to do if I don't. HELLLLLLPPPP!

I couldn't figure out where the question was in this string of posts (it helps to delete portions that you're not replying to), but maybe it was "what is tabbing." If so, tabbing is the use of fiberglass, often tape, and resin to bond together the hull and various internal structural members such as bulkheads, stringers, floors, and internal furniture. Internal parts of the boat often have multiple purposes, a secondary one being to add structural rigidity or strength to the hull. By fastening together the hull and internal components that are there anyway, greater structural strength is attained. My Cal 20 has a bunch of fiberglass and wooden internals that are bonded to the hull. So does my other boat,a 1961 Seafarer, that uses shelf and berth supports as longitudinal stringers to stiffen things. The builders were sometimes optimistic about the forces involved and the strength of their resin-and-glass tabbing, and as a result sometimes the connections broke loose. Chris Campbell

i bought sea wench, a cal 28 in 1977. a couple of years later a marina asked about the keel movement when in slings. i called bill lapworth and he answered (a different world :) ) i described the marina's comments and he asked if i'd ever observed a plane wing. he went on to describe how they flex. it's now 40 years later and i've never seen any distress. the 28 and 40 are very similar. BTW, https://easternshore.craigslist.org/boa/6168333737.html https://easternshore.craigslist.org/boa/6168333737.html

David, That is the most rational answer yet. If it was ok for Bill Lapworth it's fine with it. My Cal 20 "Selene" is 50 + years old and still sailing just fine! 1966,1967,1968 overall winner of the annual Cal 20 Fleet 13 regatta. Bill Lapworth knew how to design & build boats! Martin Cal 20 Victoia BC > On Jun 26, 2017, at 11:26 AM, da… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > i bought sea wench, a cal 28 in 1977. a couple of years later a marina asked about the keel movement when in slings. i called bill lapworth and he answered (a different world :) ) i described the marina's comments and he asked if i'd ever observed a plane wing. he went on to describe how they flex. > > it's now 40 years later and i've never seen any distress. the 28 and 40 are very similar. > > BTW, > https://easternshore.craigslist.org/boa/6168333737.html > >