Cal 20 jacklines

Hi all, I singlehand my Cal 20 regularly, and I'm looking for a good safety system to prevent falling overboard. Right now I have a length of webbing that runs from one midship cleat to the other, with an overhand knot tied in the middle, which I clip my tether into. It's long enough to allow me to reach the bow, but that means it's also long enough that I could fall over the side and be dragged. I'm thinking of installing jacklines, but I don't have deck hardware in the appropriate places to run them down the center of the boat. I also want to make sure they don't interfere with the control lines on the bridge, or make it difficult to move around the cockpit. Would be interested to hear thoughts on the following: Where should I install deck hardware? I'm thinking of two padeyes on the foredeck near the centerline, and two more installed vertically at the rear of the cockpit, which I would run webbing between. How can I make the jacklines tight enough that they won't allow me to go over the side, but keep them from getting in the way when moving from one side of the cockpit to the other? Also would be interested to hear if anyone uses a different system that works well. Thanks! Tom

Tom- Great question. I think your configuration of the pad eyes sounds good. I remember seeing an article in Sail or Boat Us recently on this topic. For my 2 cents, I would consider different clip lengths sets of jack lines for the different areas of the boat (either different clips on same line or multiple jack lines). For the cockpit, if you want to 'clip in' maybe consider to a pad eye in the center of the cockpit and mess around on a light air day to figure out the length through trial and error with spare line. As for forward of the mast, I like your idea of running webbing between pad eyes, and again maybe trial and error might decide the sweet spot for length of jackline. Best, Mike Casillo Cal 2-25 Annapolis > On Aug 31, 2017, at 1:16 AM, to… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Hi all, > > I singlehand my Cal 20 regularly, and I'm looking for a good safety system to prevent falling overboard. Right now I have a length of webbing that runs from one midship cleat to the other, with an overhand knot tied in the middle, which I clip my tether into. It's long enough to allow me to reach the bow, but that means it's also long enough that I could fall over the side and be dragged. > > > > I'm thinking of installing jacklines, but I don't have deck hardware in the appropriate places to run them down the center of the boat. I also want to make sure they don't interfere with the control lines on the bridge, or make it difficult to move around the cockpit. > > > > Would be interested to hear thoughts on the following: > > Where should I install deck hardware? I'm thinking of two padeyes on the foredeck near the centerline, and two more installed vertically at the rear of the cockpit, which I would run webbing between. > How can I make the jacklines tight enough that they won't allow me to go over the side, but keep them from getting in the way when moving from one side of the cockpit to the other? > Also would be interested to hear if anyone uses a different system that works well. > > Thanks! > Tom >

On 8/31/2017 11:32 AM, Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > Tom- > > Great question. I think your configuration of the pad eyes sounds > good. I remember seeing an article in Sail or Boat Us recently on > this topic. For my 2 cents, I would consider different clip lengths > sets of jack lines for the different areas of the boat (either > different clips on same line or multiple jack lines). > > For the cockpit, if you want to 'clip in' maybe consider to a pad eye > in the center of the cockpit and mess around on a light air day to > figure out the length through trial and error with spare line. > > As for forward of the mast, I like your idea of running webbing > between pad eyes, and again maybe trial and error might decide the > sweet spot for length of jackline. I'm looking forward to this discussion because I single-hand my Cal 20 a lot (well, almost always), and occasionally the boat rolls in an unexpected way and reminds me that staying aboard is not guaranteed. I'm lucky to sail mostly in warm-ish water and usually not far from a shoreline. One part of the original question concerned not going over, even if tethered, because you can't get back aboard. I've been thinking about that part. One option would be to rig some sort of rope ladder, either trailed overboard or that could be pulled over by a trailing line. Has anybody experimented with something like that? One problem with my boat is that I have a Davis Tiller-Tamer, a wonderful device. If I'm overboard, the boat will sail away happily without me. Having some sort of floating trailing line might be a good thing. Chris Campbell Cal 20 #1220, Martha C

This is on the creepy side, but I have heard of two issues with jacklines, one was about a version of the clip that couldn't be undone while overboard and boat moving kept pulling tension too tight and drowned the sailor. That was on a boat where the onboard crew couldn't hear the guy yelling to cut the line. I think that clip has since been improved but no way I could tell if I was shopping for gear. The other was the man overboard near beam managed to climb back on board but not through the hole he left the deck. I believe he survived because he told this story but the struggle required to crawl back out and on again was horrible. If it was possible to wear a second secured line from your d-ring, in like an elastic pocket, that you could use to rehook, for these instances , with ability to cut or breakaway, I would feel safer moving about from line or eye bolts. We had a boat in our early sailing days that sailed itself, tacking merrily, with no tiller tamer. My life flashed before my eyes when I observed that. Helen Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:58 AM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats]<Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: On 8/31/2017 11:32 AM, Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: Tom- Great question. I think your configuration of the pad eyes sounds good. I remember seeing an article in Sail or Boat Us recently on this topic. For my 2 cents, I would consider different clip lengths sets of jack lines for the different areas of the boat (either different clips on same line or multiple jack lines). For the cockpit, if you want to 'clip in' maybe consider to a pad eye in the center of the cockpit and mess around on a light air day to figure out the length through trial and error with spare line. As for forward of the mast, I like your idea of running webbing between pad eyes, and again maybe trial and error might decide the sweet spot for length of jackline. I'm looking forward to this discussion because I single-hand my Cal 20 a lot (well, almost always), and occasionally the boat rolls in an unexpected way and reminds me that staying aboard is not guaranteed. I'm lucky to sail mostly in warm-ish water and usually not far from a shoreline. One part of the original question concerned not going over, even if tethered, because you can't get back aboard. I've been thinking about that part. One option would be to rig some sort of rope ladder, either trailed overboard or that could be pulled over by a trailing line. Has anybody experimented with something like that? One problem with my boat is that I have a Davis Tiller-Tamer, a wonderful device. If I'm overboard, the boat will sail away happily without me. Having some sort of floating trailing line might be a good thing. Chris Campbell Cal 20 #1220, Martha C

Old life harnesses tied on at the sailor end. No clip. If you couldn’t reach the other end, and the boat sank, it was all over. Modern harness straps have clips at both ends. Not sure how well they operate under high tension. Is the engine mount on a Cal 20 strong enough that one could climb up using the wings above the prop on the engine (assuming you can get the engine down)? Take Care Charlie Annapolis From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:38 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 20 jacklines This is on the creepy side, but I have heard of two issues with jacklines, one was about a version of the clip that couldn't be undone while overboard and boat moving kept pulling tension too tight and drowned the sailor. That was on a boat where the onboard crew couldn't hear the guy yelling to cut the line. I think that clip has since been improved but no way I could tell if I was shopping for gear. The other was the man overboard near beam managed to climb back on board but not through the hole he left the deck. I believe he survived because he told this story but the struggle required to crawl back out and on again was horrible. If it was possible to wear a second secured line from your d-ring, in like an elastic pocket, that you could use to rehook, for these instances , with ability to cut or breakaway, I would feel safer moving about from line or eye bolts. We had a boat in our early sailing days that sailed itself, tacking merrily, with no tiller tamer. My life flashed before my eyes when I observed that. Helen Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:58 AM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: On 8/31/2017 11:32 AM, Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com <mailto:mi… [at] yahoo.com> [Cal_Boats] wrote: Tom- Great question. I think your configuration of the pad eyes sounds good. I remember seeing an article in Sail or Boat Us recently on this topic. For my 2 cents, I would consider different clip lengths sets of jack lines for the different areas of the boat (either different clips on same line or multiple jack lines). For the cockpit, if you want to 'clip in' maybe consider to a pad eye in the center of the cockpit and mess around on a light air day to figure out the length through trial and error with spare line. As for forward of the mast, I like your idea of running webbing between pad eyes, and again maybe trial and error might decide the sweet spot for length of jackline. I'm looking forward to this discussion because I single-hand my Cal 20 a lot (well, almost always), and occasionally the boat rolls in an unexpected way and reminds me that staying aboard is not guaranteed. I'm lucky to sail mostly in warm-ish water and usually not far from a shoreline. One part of the original question concerned not going over, even if tethered, because you can't get back aboard. I've been thinking about that part. One option would be to rig some sort of rope ladder, either trailed overboard or that could be pulled over by a trailing line. Has anybody experimented with something like that? One problem with my boat is that I have a Davis Tiller-Tamer, a wonderful device. If I'm overboard, the boat will sail away happily without me. Having some sort of floating trailing line might be a good thing. Chris Campbell Cal 20 #1220, Martha C

Interesting discussion, which has been going through mind recently also, as I'm mostly singlehanding. I've also beenthinking about rigging a rope ladder that stacks on the edge of the deck, with a drop line that extends to the waterline which could be pulled from below to extend it. The harbor where I keep my boat recently installed similar ladders at many points along the docks, to enable people to climb back up if they were to fall off. A welcome addition, after my own experience falling off my slip one day while docking in a crosswind after a nice day sail with my lady friend, before they were installed. Besides the other embarrassing aspects of that incident, the biggest impact on me was the experience of how hard it was to climb back up onto even the relatively low dock, even being in decent shape and with a helping hand. Wonder if that drowning accident was the one that happened some years ago while they were crossing the Gulf of Alaska to Sitka? AJ S/V Wing Song 1966 Cal 36 Homer, AK On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Helen Horn he… [at] sbcglobal.net [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > This is on the creepy side, but I have heard of two issues with jacklines, > one was about a version of the clip that couldn't be undone while overboard > and boat moving kept pulling tension too tight and drowned the sailor. That > was on a boat where the onboard crew couldn't hear the guy yelling to cut > the line. I think that clip has since been improved but no way I could tell > if I was shopping for gear. The other was the man overboard near beam > managed to climb back on board but not through the hole he left the deck. I > believe he survived because he told this story but the struggle required to > crawl back out and on again was horrible. If it was possible to wear a > second secured line from your d-ring, in like an elastic pocket, that you > could use to rehook, for these instances , with ability to cut or > breakaway, I would feel safer moving about from line or eye bolts. We had > a boat in our early sailing days that sailed itself, tacking merrily, with > no tiller tamer. My life flashed before my eyes when I observed that. Helen >

On my trip across the Gulf of Mexico I tied a knot in my harness so that the furthest I could go was to the top of the lifelines, but I could untie the knot if I needed to reach further during calmer times. I also have never been sailing without a very sharp knife in my pocket tied to a lanyard that was tied to a belt loop on my pants. I used this one time when docking in Cheesequake Creek when a dock line became wrapped around the prop shaft leaving the boat hanging out in 4 knot current outside the slip. I announced “Going in” to everyone, jumped in the water and cut the line with the knife and then helped put another line around a piling so the boat could be safely pulled back into the slip. Without that knife at the ready this would not have ended well. I started to carry a knife that way after hearing of the death of a Flying Scot sailor who was held under water by the mainsheet of an overturned boat. Had he had a knife he would possibly be alive today. Don Dutton 1986 Cal 33, “Quantum Evolution” > On Aug 31, 2017, at 10:59 AM, 'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Old life harnesses tied on at the sailor end. No clip. If you couldn’t reach the other end, and the boat sank, it was all over. Modern harness straps have clips at both ends. Not sure how well they operate under high tension. > > > > Is the engine mount on a Cal 20 strong enough that one could climb up using the wings above the prop on the engine (assuming you can get the engine down)? > > > > Take Care > > Charlie > > Annapolis > > > > From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com>] > Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:38 PM > To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 20 jacklines > > > > > > This is on the creepy side, but I have heard of two issues with jacklines, one was about a version of the clip that couldn't be undone while overboard and boat moving kept pulling tension too tight and drowned the sailor. That was on a boat where the onboard crew couldn't hear the guy yelling to cut the line. I think that clip has since been improved but no way I could tell if I was shopping for gear. The other was the man overboard near beam managed to climb back on board but not through the hole he left the deck. I believe he survived because he told this story but the struggle required to crawl back out and on again was horrible. If it was possible to wear a second secured line from your d-ring, in like an elastic pocket, that you could use to rehook, for these instances , with ability to cut or breakaway, I would feel safer moving about from line or eye bolts. We had a boat in our early sailing days that sailed itself, tacking merrily, with no tiller tamer. My life flashed before my eyes when I observed that. Helen > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android> > > >> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:58 AM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] >> >> <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 8/31/2017 11:32 AM, Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com <mailto:mi… [at] yahoo.com> [Cal_Boats] wrote: >> >>> Tom- >>> >>> >>> >>> Great question. I think your configuration of the pad eyes sounds good. I remember seeing an article in Sail or Boat Us recently on this topic. For my 2 cents, I would consider different clip lengths sets of jack lines for the different areas of the boat (either different clips on same line or multiple jack lines). >>> >>> >>> >>> For the cockpit, if you want to 'clip in' maybe consider to a pad eye in the center of the cockpit and mess around on a light air day to figure out the length through trial and error with spare line. >>> >>> >>> >>> As for forward of the mast, I like your idea of running webbing between pad eyes, and again maybe trial and error might decide the sweet spot for length of jackline. >>> >> >> I'm looking forward to this discussion because I single-hand my Cal 20 a lot (well, almost always), and occasionally the boat rolls in an unexpected way and reminds me that staying aboard is not guaranteed. I'm lucky to sail mostly in warm-ish water and usually not far from a shoreline. >> >> One part of the original question concerned not going over, even if tethered, because you can't get back aboard. I've been thinking about that part. One option would be to rig some sort of rope ladder, either trailed overboard or that could be pulled over by a trailing line. Has anybody experimented with something like that? >> >> One problem with my boat is that I have a Davis Tiller-Tamer, a wonderful device. If I'm overboard, the boat will sail away happily without me. Having some sort of floating trailing line might be a good thing. >> >> Chris Campbell >> Cal 20 #1220, Martha C >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > <image001.jpg><image002.jpg>

On 8/31/2017 1:59 PM, 'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > Old life harnesses tied on at the sailor end. No clip. If you > couldn’t reach the other end, and the boat sank, it was all over. > Modern harness straps have clips at both ends. Not sure how well they > operate under high tension. > > Is the engine mount on a Cal 20 strong enough that one could climb up > using the wings above the prop on the engine (assuming you can get the > engine down)? > I'm old-school and don't want to deface my boat with a transom engine mount. The motor sits in the well, except when it is uncooperative and sitting in my shop. It's needed often enough to get back on the mooring when there's no wind or too much wind from the wrong direction and I can't maneuver safely under sail in the mooring field. I tolerate the drag. But when this discussion came up I thought about maybe a step or two on the outboard rudder. Chris Campbell > >

Chris, I have a similar setup. I've got a Wavefront Tiller Clutch, and if it was locked the boat would happily sail away without me if I went overboard. I've thought about systems for getting back on board as well. One idea I had was a custom tether with loops in it, kind of like the aiders that climbers use <https://www.metoliusclimbing.com/aiders.html>. The idea is that when you fall in, you would use the tether itself as a ladder to get back on board. The pro to this idea is that it will always be in the right place to get back onboard (ie. it will be wherever you are). But the idea has some downsides. For one, you'd have lots of loops that could catch on things as you move around on the boat. Another is that you might have to make the tether very long to be able to stand up with your foot in one of the loops. But I may experiment with it. Charlie, Cal 20's didn't actually come from the factory with an engine mount on the transom. They have a motor well instead. Lots of people have added transom mounts, so the strength depends on how well they did it, particularly if they put in a good backing plate. I experimented with getting back on the boat from the water (had a swim ladder as a backup). Like everybody says, it was harder than I expected. Climbing up by stepping on the motor fin might work (I didn't try that), but my take is that it would be difficult. I was able to get back in by climbing over the rail. I'm a rock climber and I used a heel hook, but if I didn't know that move, coming up over the rail would probably have been impossible. Keep in mind also that the boat wasn't moving when I tried this. Tom On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 10:59 AM, 'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Old life harnesses tied on at the sailor end. No clip. If you couldn’t > reach the other end, and the boat sank, it was all over. Modern harness > straps have clips at both ends. Not sure how well they operate under high > tension. > > > > Is the engine mount on a Cal 20 strong enough that one could climb up > using the wings above the prop on the engine (assuming you can get the > engine down)? > > > > Take Care > > Charlie > > Annapolis > > > > *From:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:38 PM > *To:* Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 20 jacklines > > > > > > This is on the creepy side, but I have heard of two issues with jacklines, > one was about a version of the clip that couldn't be undone while overboard > and boat moving kept pulling tension too tight and drowned the sailor. That > was on a boat where the onboard crew couldn't hear the guy yelling to cut > the line. I think that clip has since been improved but no way I could tell > if I was shopping for gear. The other was the man overboard near beam > managed to climb back on board but not through the hole he left the deck. I > believe he survived because he told this story but the struggle required to > crawl back out and on again was horrible. If it was possible to wear a > second secured line from your d-ring, in like an elastic pocket, that you > could use to rehook, for these instances , with ability to cut or > breakaway, I would feel safer moving about from line or eye bolts. We had > a boat in our early sailing days that sailed itself, tacking merrily, with > no tiller tamer. My life flashed before my eyes when I observed that. Helen > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android> > > > > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:58 AM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] > > <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 8/31/2017 11:32 AM, Mike's Yahoo mi… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] > wrote: > > Tom- > > > > Great question. I think your configuration of the pad eyes sounds good. I > remember seeing an article in Sail or Boat Us recently on this topic. For > my 2 cents, I would consider different clip lengths sets of jack lines for > the different areas of the boat (either different clips on same line or > multiple jack lines). > > > > For the cockpit, if you want to 'clip in' maybe consider to a pad eye in > the center of the cockpit and mess around on a light air day to figure out > the length through trial and error with spare line. > > > > As for forward of the mast, I like your idea of running webbing between > pad eyes, and again maybe trial and error might decide the sweet spot for > length of jackline. > > > I'm looking forward to this discussion because I single-hand my Cal 20 a > lot (well, almost always), and occasionally the boat rolls in an unexpected > way and reminds me that staying aboard is not guaranteed. I'm lucky to > sail mostly in warm-ish water and usually not far from a shoreline. > > One part of the original question concerned not going over, even if > tethered, because you can't get back aboard. I've been thinking about that > part. One option would be to rig some sort of rope ladder, either trailed > overboard or that could be pulled over by a trailing line. Has anybody > experimented with something like that? > > One problem with my boat is that I have a Davis Tiller-Tamer, a wonderful > device. If I'm overboard, the boat will sail away happily without me. > Having some sort of floating trailing line might be a good thing. > > Chris Campbell > Cal 20 #1220, Martha C > > > > > >

On 8/31/2017 3:49 PM, Tom Russo to… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > I'm a rock climber and I used a heel hook, but if I didn't know that > move, coming up over the rail would probably have been impossible. > Keep in mind also that the boat wasn't moving when I tried this. OK, Tom, teach us a heel hook. Our schooner crew had a safety seminar in the water (a pool) a long time ago. The instructor brought an inflatable dinghy and had us try to climb into it. Sounds easy, right? It's a low boat with nice rounded sides, piece of cake! But wait, there's nothing to grab onto....@#$%&**!!!. One of the first accessories I bought for the Cal 20 was a boarding ladder. It works fine, and if there's crew aboard, it solves the problem for a conscious COB. But 99% of my sails are without crew. Chris Campbell > >

On 8/31/2017 2:03 PM, aJ ak… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > Interesting discussion, which has been going through mind recently > also, as I'm mostly singlehanding. > > I've also beenthinking about rigging a rope ladder that stacks on the > edge of the deck, with a drop line that extends to the waterline which > could be pulled from below to extend it. The harbor where I keep my > boat recently installed similar ladders at many points along the > docks, to enable people to climb back up if they were to fall off. A > welcome addition, after my own experience falling off my slip one day > while docking in a crosswind after a nice day sail with my lady > friend, before they were installed. Besides the other embarrassing > aspects of that incident, the biggest impact on me was the experience > of how hard it was to climb back up onto even the relatively low dock, > even being in decent shape and with a helping hand. The only involuntary swim from my boat that I've had was the time the dinghy took off on its own while I was on the mooring. It ended up right where it stayed ashore, like a dog going home. I swam ashore and then walked. Problem was, this was after the arrival of the zebra mussels. When they are alive they are viciously sharp, like little knives, and I sliced up my feet. I just did that 2 weeks ago at my brother's place on Lake Champlain. Fewer cuts but they are painful. And these were probably quagga mussels, the successors to their cousins the zebras, but equally sharp. Chris Campbell > >

> OK, Tom, teach us a heel hook. Sure :) Basically you reach up with your foot, and grab the hold (or in this case the rail) with the back of your heel. Then you engage your core and bend your knee to lift yourself. Easier shown than explained. <https://vimeo.com/64651668> On the boat, I basically slung my foot up over the rail, grabbed it with my heel and hauled myself up that way. Definitely not graceful, and I wouldn't want to rely on it in an emergency. Thus I'm in search of a better way :) Anyway, great discussion, thanks everybody. Tom On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 2:02 PM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] < Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > On 8/31/2017 2:03 PM, aJ ak… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > Interesting discussion, which has been going through mind recently also, > as I'm mostly singlehanding. > > I've also beenthinking about rigging a rope ladder that stacks on the edge > of the deck, with a drop line that extends to the waterline which could be > pulled from below to extend it. The harbor where I keep my boat recently > installed similar ladders at many points along the docks, to enable people > to climb back up if they were to fall off. A welcome addition, after my > own experience falling off my slip one day while docking in a crosswind > after a nice day sail with my lady friend, before they were installed. > Besides the other embarrassing aspects of that incident, the biggest impact > on me was the experience of how hard it was to climb back up onto even the > relatively low dock, even being in decent shape and with a helping hand. > > > The only involuntary swim from my boat that I've had was the time the > dinghy took off on its own while I was on the mooring. It ended up right > where it stayed ashore, like a dog going home. I swam ashore and then > walked. Problem was, this was after the arrival of the zebra mussels. > When they are alive they are viciously sharp, like little knives, and I > sliced up my feet. I just did that 2 weeks ago at my brother's place on > Lake Champlain. Fewer cuts but they are painful. And these were probably > quagga mussels, the successors to their cousins the zebras, but equally > sharp. > > Chris Campbell > > > > > >