Re: [Cal_Boats] Cal 31 Keel and Rudder Questions - New Owner

Sounds like the Ranger 26 keel is attached the same way as the CAL 20? A series of bolts around a flange on a cast-iron keel. Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY DS II #10201 Previously co-owned "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 #285 On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 06:35:37 +0000 (UTC) "Gerald Sobel so… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: Nothing like asking Google. Sailing Anarchy had the answer. Apparently the Ranger's keel is different from other boats in that it has a flange. It sounds like you remove the nut, or cut off the nut (I think I'd try one of those vibrating saws with a diamond/carbide blade before using a...Skillsaw??) and hammer out the bolt down from inside the hull. Does that sound right? readyabout82 Anarchist Members 1 328 posts Report post #4 Posted August 19, 2012 Not a real easy way to inspect without taking them out. My '72 ranger had removable plywood boards on the cabin sole, with the nuts/washers exposed from a recess about 2-3 inches below. Let's just say that if the nuts are so corroded that it is difficult to recognize what they are, it's probably time for a change-out. When I changed mine on a 1972 Ranger 26 the nuts actually had to be cut off with a skill-saw they were so bad. Thankfully, the keel is held on with a flange. While the boat is on the hard it's handy to have a friend in the cabin to remove the nut, and another guy to take out the bolt from the outside. Pop in the new one, (with a bead of 5200), and move on to the next. The actual fasteners if I remember correctly are 7/8" x 5" flat head, standard imperial thread, use nylock nuts, and fender washers. Not that hard to get, and easy to order. Done! I had a problem with my ranger 28 that involved the bolts being waaay too loose. Half the damn nuts were literally finger tight, the other half I got off with a normal open end wrench. Torqued them down to 80ft/lbs IIRC. Solved the water seeping up the bolts problem. Oh, and why oh why do people insist on re-bedding keels and shit with 5200? Or any kind of adhesive? Someone is gonna be cursing your name 20 years down the line when it's time to do it all again. The bolt's hold the keel on, a little 5200 isn't going to do shit except give someone else a headache. boomer Posted August 23, 2012 When we replaced our keelbolts on the Ranger 26,we put her on the hard on poppet stands and braced the keel as well.The nuts,washers and bolts were removed and then we separated the keel from hull.Then we scraped all the old caulking from the keel flange and the hull,and finished by cleaning the surfaces with acetone.Then we liberally applied Boatlife Polysulfide caulk to both surfaces.Then lowered the boat on to the flange of the keel.Then new 316 stanless steel keelbolts,nuts and washers were installed,with a coating of polysulfide caulk on the shoulder of the bolt,to limit the actual contact with the steel flange.We let this all set for about a week to let the Polysulfide caulk set up.Finally we torqued the keelbolts to the recommended specs.I don't remember the torque specs,but torque spec charts 316 for stainless steel bolts can be found online.IIRC we torqued them to within five lbs. of maximum,the online torque charts will show a minimum and a maximum torque I agree with Memo,don't rebed the keel with 5200...use Boatlife Polysulfide caulk On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 9:35 PM, "Gerald Sobel so… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: While we are on the subject of surveying, I looked at a Ranger 26 today. Looks good except for a couple of things concerning me. One is a slight sag in the overhead under the mast, which is deck, or, dog house stepped. I understand that this is endemic to Ranger 26's and one I looked at two years ago was a lot worse. The second thing is more serious, and it concerns the keel bolts, which attach a cast iron keel to the bottom of the hull. The starboard side of the keel's bolts have all, or nearly all been replaced with new stainless steel bolts and nuts, but not on the port side, and some of them look terrible. The at the aft port side, there is a slight bulge in the hull adjacent to the aft-most bolt. The two foremost bolts are almost gone, feel moist and some rubbery caulking around them can be lifted away with your fingernail. The other bolts are rusted but still recognizable as bolts with nuts on them. Is this pretty bad, a sign of leaking between the hull and keel, in need of sooner vs. later surgery, and is that a major and expensive work at a boatyard (separating keel from hull, sand blasting keel and rejoining)? The boat's a bit weathered looking with regards to the teak trim, the outboard is newish and the price is cheap, $1500. I imagine I could probably get away with racing it for a season and selling it for more than what I paid without doing the surgery, or, am I taking a big risk? Just your opinion. Oh, the new owner said the PO hauled and repainted the bottom within this last year. Maybe that's when the new bolts were installed. I am just guessing. A Ranger is about as close to a Cal as you can get without being designed by the master himself, as Gary Mull was a member of Bill's design team, as was Schumacher. May they all Rest in Peace. Of course, she's not as cute as Shpritz. Few boats are. Jerry of Shpritz On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:55 PM, "mo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: I'm a longtime daysailor and just bought a 1979 Cal-31. I took a chance and surveyed the boat myself. This is my first boat with an encapsulated lead keel. Everything above waterline looked OK. While the boat was short-hauled and I tapped on the keel and rudder. To my untrained ear it seemed like there were some voids in the keel/ballast cavity. (FWIW, there was a nick in the keel's bottom.) The rudder also sounded hollow in a few places. Just looking for general guidance. Many thanks in advance 1 Simple Trick Removes Eye Bags & Lip Lines in Seconds Fit Mom Daily http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5a0468bce00c068bc3ee6st02duc

Rod,Thanks for your reply. The short answer is yes, the keel is flanged and held onto the hull by two rows of bolts. I did find a bunch of Ranger 26 owners that replaced their keel bolts. It involves hauling the boat, supporting the keel, removing the nut by whatever means is necessary, and punching it down and out from the inside of the boat. If there is any question about the keel to hull joint, the hull is lifted off the keel, rust removed, epoxied, then re-mated with various compounds. I guess poly-sulfide caulk if you plan on repeating the exercise or possibly a polyurethane type if you don't, and installing new galvanized steel bolts (or stainless steel ones if you don't believe in catastrophic crevice erosion will take out a 7/8" bolt that quickly, which frankly, I tend to disbelieve. I'll have to Google that subject since I frankly don't understand it that well. If stainless steel was so well preserved by air, why do we see wire rigging rust and fail over time? And what about using Boshield #9 to prevent crevice erosion? Next question, should the new looking SS bolts in the starboard side of the keel be removed if and when the port side keel bolts are replaced? There's a Ranger 26 owner here who loves his boat so much he's thinking of getting a second one. Maybe I should see if he wants this one?Jerry of Shpritz On Thursday, November 9, 2017 6:47 AM, "rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: Sounds like the Ranger 26 keel is attached the same way as the CAL 20?A series of bolts around a flange on a cast-iron keel. Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD"1979 O'DAY DS II #10201Previously co-owned "NODROG"1970 CAL 21 #285 On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 06:35:37 +0000 (UTC) "Gerald Sobel so… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: Nothing like asking Google. Sailing Anarchy had the answer. Apparently the Ranger's keel is different from other boats in that it has a flange. It sounds like you remove the nut, or cut off the nut (I think I'd try one of those vibrating saws with a diamond/carbide blade before using a...Skillsaw??) and hammer out the bolt down from inside the hull. Does that sound right? readyabout82 - Anarchist - - - Members - 1 - 328 posts - Report post - - #4 Posted August 19, 2012 Not a real easy way to inspect without taking them out. My '72 ranger had removable plywood boards on the cabin sole, with the nuts/washers exposed from a recess about 2-3 inches below. Let's just say that if the nuts are so corroded that it is difficult to recognize what they are, it's probably time for a change-out. When I changed mine on a 1972 Ranger 26 the nuts actually had to be cut off with a skill-saw they were so bad. Thankfully, the keel is held on with a flange. While the boat is on the hard it's handy to have a friend in the cabin to remove the nut, and another guy to take out the bolt from the outside. Pop in the new one, (with a bead of 5200), and move on to the next. The actual fasteners if I remember correctly are 7/8" x 5" flat head, standard imperial thread, use nylock nuts, and fender washers. Not that hard to get, and easy to order. Done! I had a problem with my ranger 28 that involved the bolts being waaay too loose. Half the damn nuts were literally finger tight, the other half I got off with a normal open end wrench. Torqued them down to 80ft/lbs IIRC. Solved the water seeping up the bolts problem. Oh, and why oh why do people insist on re-bedding keels and shit with 5200? Or any kind of adhesive? Someone is gonna be cursing your name 20 years down the line when it's time to do it all again. The bolt's hold the keel on, a little 5200 isn't going to do shit except give someone else a headache. boomer Posted August 23, 2012 When we replaced our keelbolts on the Ranger 26,we put her on the hard on poppet stands and braced the keel as well.The nuts,washers and bolts were removed and then we separated the keel from hull.Then we scraped all the old caulking from the keel flange and the hull,and finished by cleaning the surfaces with acetone.Then we liberally applied Boatlife Polysulfide caulk to both surfaces.Then lowered the boat on to the flange of the keel.Then new 316 stanless steel keelbolts,nuts and washers were installed,with a coating of polysulfide caulk on the shoulder of the bolt,to limit the actual contact with the steel flange.We let this all set for about a week to let the Polysulfide caulk set up.Finally we torqued the keelbolts to the recommended specs.I don't remember the torque specs,but torque spec charts 316 for stainless steel bolts can be found online.IIRC we torqued them to within five lbs. of maximum,the online torque charts will show a minimum and a maximum torque I agree with Memo,don't rebed the keel with 5200...use Boatlife Polysulfide caulk On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 9:35 PM, "Gerald Sobel so… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: While we are on the subject of surveying, I looked at a Ranger 26 today. Looks good except for a couple of things concerning me. One is a slight sag in the overhead under the mast, which is deck, or, dog house stepped. I understand that this is endemic to Ranger 26's and one I looked at two years ago was a lot worse. The second thing is more serious, and it concerns the keel bolts, which attach a cast iron keel to the bottom of the hull. The starboard side of the keel's bolts have all, or nearly all been replaced with new stainless steel bolts and nuts, but not on the port side, and some of them look terrible. The at the aft port side, there is a slight bulge in the hull adjacent to the aft-most bolt. The two foremost bolts are almost gone, feel moist and some rubbery caulking around them can be lifted away with your fingernail. The other bolts are rusted but still recognizable as bolts with nuts on them. Is this pretty bad, a sign of leaking between the hull and keel, in need of sooner vs. later surgery, and is that a major and expensive work at a boatyard (separating keel from hull, sand blasting keel and rejoining)? The boat's a bit weathered looking with regards to the teak trim, the outboard is newish and the price is cheap, $1500. I imagine I could probably get away with racing it for a season and selling it for more than what I paid without doing the surgery, or, am I taking a big risk? Just your opinion. Oh, the new owner said the PO hauled and repainted the bottom within this last year. Maybe that's when the new bolts were installed. I am just guessing. A Ranger is about as close to a Cal as you can get without being designed by the master himself, as Gary Mull was a member of Bill's design team, as was Schumacher. May they all Rest in Peace. Of course, she's not as cute as Shpritz. Few boats are. Jerry of Shpritz On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:55 PM, "mo… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: I'm a longtime daysailor and just bought a 1979 Cal-31. I took a chance and surveyed the boat myself. This is my first boat with an encapsulated lead keel. Everything above waterline looked OK. While the boat was short-hauled and I tapped on the keel and rudder. To my untrained ear it seemed like there were some voids in the keel/ballast cavity. (FWIW, there was a nick in the keel's bottom.) The rudder also sounded hollow in a few places. Just looking for general guidance. Many thanks in advance 1 Simple Trick Removes Eye Bags Lip Lines in Seconds Fit Mom Daily http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/5a0468bce00c068bc3ee6st02duc

On 11/9/2017 8:57 PM, Gerald Sobel so… [at] yahoo.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: > > > Rod, > Thanks for your reply. The short answer is yes, the keel is flanged > and held onto the hull by two rows of bolts. I did find a bunch of > Ranger 26 owners that replaced their keel bolts. It involves hauling > the boat, supporting the keel, removing the nut by whatever means is > necessary, and punching it down and out from the inside of the boat. > If there is any question about the keel to hull joint, the hull is > lifted off the keel, rust removed, epoxied, then re-mated with various > compounds. I guess poly-sulfide caulk if you plan on repeating the > exercise or possibly a polyurethane type if you don't, and installing > new galvanized steel bolts (or stainless steel ones if you don't > believe in catastrophic crevice erosion will take out a 7/8" bolt that > quickly, which frankly, I tend to disbelieve. I'll have to Google that > subject since I frankly don't understand it that well. If stainless > steel was so well preserved by air, why do we see wire rigging rust > and fail over time? And what about using Boshield #9 to prevent > crevice erosion? Next question, should the new looking SS bolts in the > starboard side of the keel be removed if and when the port side keel > bolts are replaced? There's a Ranger 26 owner here who loves his boat > so much he's thinking of getting a second one. Maybe I should see if > he wants this one? > Jerry of Shpritz Jerry: Isn't the issue one of stainless steel needing oxygen exposure to main an oxidized surface? Surfaces that are kept wet but with un-oxygenated water (e.g., the stale water inside a rudder shell) can corrode and fail. Same with a keel bolt. And as to standing rigging, another failure mode is from repeated cycles of loading/unloading ("ready about!"). I've read often enough about keel bolt failure and rudder innard failure and chainplate failure where it passes through a deck to be at least a bit attentive to the issue. My only stainless steel failure has been from submitting it to the indignity of high voltage electricity. Yup, that worked. Chris Campbell > > >