Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel/rudder configurations (was 1966 Cal 30 Rudder Post)

Charlie; None of the 24' CALs had the typical "CAL" trapezoid fin-keel and spade rudder of the CAL 25, 28, 2-30, 34, and 40. The Original CAL 24 had a shallow "full-Keel" that housed an arc-shaped centerboard with a rudder attached to the trailing edge of the keel. The CAL 2-24 had a bolt-on cast-iron fin-keel, that swept aft with a ballast bulb at the bottom, sort-of like the CAL 21 keel, or the ones on a 110 or 210, with a spade rudder similar to the 25. The CAL T/4 had a swept back lead fin-keel, also bolted-on with an outboard rudder. The later (1983-85) CR Hunt Associates-Designed CAL 24 has a bolt-on lead fin-keel (either shoal or deep) and a spade rudder not that much different from the 2-24 or original 25. Minor correction to your posting. Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY Day Sailer formerly co-owner of "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 15:57:09 -0400 "'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: It can be a tough call, Allen. The Cal 25 (flat deck, yes I know that some call it a raised deck) has a fin keel that is integral to the hull and has a deep bilge. A one ton (+/-) lead slug was dropped into the keel mold. Rudder is spade (detached from the keel). I believe this is the same arrangement as the original Cals 24, 28, 34, and 40. Early on, many said that Lapworth�s Cal 40 spade rudder design was not seaworthy and would fall apart. That was before the Cal 40 became famous as the king (queen?) of the TransPac. Take Care Charlie Annapolis (MD) From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 3:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; he… [at] sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel/rudder configurations (was 1966 Cal 30 Rudder Post) I was confused about the definitions of full keel and fin keel. A full keel boat has the hull going down into the keel and probably has a very deep bilge. My L-36 has a canoe hull and a fin keel which is attached to the bottom of the boat with bolts. My bilge is very shallow. My rudder is attached to the fin keel and the keel is fairly long, not like modern fin keel boats which is why I was confused. I have no idea which kind of keel the Cal boats have. Allen L-36..com Lapworth 36 #5 On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM 'he… [at] sbcglobal.net' he… [at] sbcglobal.net [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: We owned a cal 30, with that "barndoor" rudder, at the same time as our 29 and our 36. The 30 needs 30 acres just to "turn that rig around" the 29 and 36 feel like turning on a dime comparatively speaking. The 30 is a lovely sturdy comfortable boat. Not too good in a tight fairway for maneuvers. Helen Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 8:52 AM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: On 8/10/2019 12:46 AM, 'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: In the Annapolis Good Old Boat Regatta, we have racing classes called Fin Keel and Full Keel. Albeit there are many hybrid designs, the basic difference we use is whether the rudder is attached to the keel (full keel) or not (fin keel). I never knew that the Cal 30-1 was a full keel. Thanks for the info. The photo made me wonder about fin keel vs "full keel" and the functional differences. I usually think of traditional full keel vessels as having a greater wetted surface. Charlie mentions "hybrid" designs and the Cal 30 photo suggests that--a smaller full keel than we normally see associated with that term. The wetted surface is reduced. \ Fin keel/spade rudder vessels have some steering advantage, don't they, based on the fin as a pivot point and the rudder being farther aft for a sort of lever effect. But I don't know enough about hydrodynamics and steering effectiveness of attached rudder and spade rudder. It also occurs to me that a full keel, attached rudder vessel might get a bit more lift when the helm is to weather a bit as it usually is. I've got one of each. The Cal 20 has its transom hung rudder, about as far aft of the fin as possible. She turns on a dime. My other boat, the old Seafarer, has a full keel with a literal barn-door rudder--a big rectangular thing hung on the after end of the keel, and the whole of keel and rudder making an elongated foil shape with rudder in neutral position. So I'm curious if anybody can illuminate the extent of the differences and whether that Cal 30 configuration captures the best of each concept or maybe the worst.... Chris Campbell Cal 20 # 1220; Seafarer Polaris #13 Meghan Markle Confirms Unfortunate News track.volutrk.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5d523c873d3633c874d90st02duc

Rod, I was thinking about the Cal that looked like a 25, but missing a window. I only ever saw a single one on one of my West Coast business trips. Was that the 24-2? I assumed it was like a 25 in other respects. Apparently not. Thanks for the correction. Take Care Charlie Annapolis From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 12:24 AM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; hu… [at] gmail.com Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel/rudder configurations (was 1966 Cal 30 Rudder Post) Charlie; None of the 24' CALs had the typical "CAL" trapezoid fin-keel and spade rudder of the CAL 25, 28, 2-30, 34, and 40. The Original CAL 24 had a shallow "full-Keel" that housed an arc-shaped centerboard with a rudder attached to the trailing edge of the keel. The CAL 2-24 had a bolt-on cast-iron fin-keel, that swept aft with a ballast bulb at the bottom, sort-of like the CAL 21 keel, or the ones on a 110 or 210, with a spade rudder similar to the 25. The CAL T/4 had a swept back lead fin-keel, also bolted-on with an outboard rudder. The later (1983-85) CR Hunt Associates-Designed CAL 24 has a bolt-on lead fin-keel (either shoal or deep) and a spade rudder not that much different from the 2-24 or original 25. Minor correction to your posting. Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" 1979 O'DAY Day Sailer formerly co-owner of "NODROG" 1970 CAL 21 On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 15:57:09 -0400 "'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com <mailto:hu… [at] gmail.com> [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > writes: It can be a tough call, Allen. The Cal 25 (flat deck, yes I know that some call it a raised deck) has a fin keel that is integral to the hull and has a deep bilge. A one ton (+/-) lead slug was dropped into the keel mold. Rudder is spade (detached from the keel). I believe this is the same arrangement as the original Cals 24, 28, 34, and 40. Early on, many said that Lapworth’s Cal 40 spade rudder design was not seaworthy and would fall apart. That was before the Cal 40 became famous as the king (queen?) of the TransPac. Take Care Charlie Annapolis (MD) From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 3:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> ; he… [at] sbcglobal.net <mailto:he… [at] sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel/rudder configurations (was 1966 Cal 30 Rudder Post) I was confused about the definitions of full keel and fin keel. A full keel boat has the hull going down into the keel and probably has a very deep bilge. My L-36 has a canoe hull and a fin keel which is attached to the bottom of the boat with bolts. My bilge is very shallow. My rudder is attached to the fin keel and the keel is fairly long, not like modern fin keel boats which is why I was confused. I have no idea which kind of keel the Cal boats have. Allen L-36..com Lapworth 36 #5 On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM 'he… [at] sbcglobal.net <mailto:he… [at] sbcglobal.net> ' he… [at] sbcglobal.net <mailto:he… [at] sbcglobal.net> [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > wrote: We owned a cal 30, with that "barndoor" rudder, at the same time as our 29 and our 36. The 30 needs 30 acres just to "turn that rig around" the 29 and 36 feel like turning on a dime comparatively speaking. The 30 is a lovely sturdy comfortable boat. Not too good in a tight fairway for maneuvers. Helen Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature> On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 8:52 AM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org <mailto:cc… [at] lsnm.org> [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> > wrote: On 8/10/2019 12:46 AM, 'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com <mailto:hu… [at] gmail.com> [Cal_Boats] wrote: In the Annapolis Good Old Boat Regatta, we have racing classes called Fin Keel and Full Keel. Albeit there are many hybrid designs, the basic difference we use is whether the rudder is attached to the keel (full keel) or not (fin keel). I never knew that the Cal 30-1 was a full keel. Thanks for the info. The photo made me wonder about fin keel vs "full keel" and the functional differences. I usually think of traditional full keel vessels as having a greater wetted surface. Charlie mentions "hybrid" designs and the Cal 30 photo suggests that--a smaller full keel than we normally see associated with that term. The wetted surface is reduced. \ Fin keel/spade rudder vessels have some steering advantage, don't they, based on the fin as a pivot point and the rudder being farther aft for a sort of lever effect. But I don't know enough about hydrodynamics and steering effectiveness of attached rudder and spade rudder. It also occurs to me that a full keel, attached rudder vessel might get a bit more lift when the helm is to weather a bit as it usually is. I've got one of each. The Cal 20 has its transom hung rudder, about as far aft of the fin as possible. She turns on a dime. My other boat, the old Seafarer, has a full keel with a literal barn-door rudder--a big rectangular thing hung on the after end of the keel, and the whole of keel and rudder making an elongated foil shape with rudder in neutral position. So I'm curious if anybody can illuminate the extent of the differences and whether that Cal 30 configuration captures the best of each concept or maybe the worst.... Chris Campbell Cal 20 # 1220; Seafarer Polaris #13 <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/5d523c873d3633c874d90st02duc> Meghan Markle Confirms Unfortunate News track.volutrk.com <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/5d523c873d3633c874d90st02duc> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/5d523c873d3633c874d90st02duc <https://d32oduq093hvot.cloudfront.net/icons/sponsoredlinksby.png>

There was some variability in manufacturing techniques during the earlier years. My brother's 1963 Cal 28 had a bolt on keel. My 1967 Cal 28 had the encapsulated lead keel. Randy and Sharon Van Esselstyn :Cal 25 Island Sun X 5 years, Cal 28 Emerald Pelican X 29 years, Cal 2 29 Emerald Flash X 6 years.

Allen, et al, The early Cal 30, like my 1966, has a cutaway forefoot keel, which is half-way between a full keel and a fin keel. It was designed for speed while ensuring a strong steering system. If there is one drawback, it's the tendency to sail back and forth at anchor because all the lateral resistance is aft. When my wife and I spent a few days anchored at Fatu Hiva in the southern Marquesas, strong gusts pouring down through the mountain pass had us sailing back and forth all night, and we were helpless to solve the problem. I keep saying I'm going to make an anchor sail for the backstay, but the rum bottle keeps getting in the way. On Monday, August 12, 2019, 09:29:30 PM PDT, rj… [at] juno.com [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote:  Charlie;None of the 24' CALs had the typical "CAL" trapezoid fin-keel and spade rudder of the CAL 25, 28, 2-30, 34, and 40.The Original CAL 24 had a shallow "full-Keel" that housed an arc-shaped centerboard with a rudder attached to the trailing edge of the keel.The CAL 2-24 had a bolt-on cast-iron fin-keel, that swept aft with a ballast bulb at the bottom, sort-of like the CAL 21 keel, or the ones on a 110 or 210, with a spade rudder similar to the 25.The CAL T/4 had a swept back lead fin-keel, also bolted-on with an outboard rudder.The later (1983-85) CR Hunt Associates-Designed CAL 24 has a bolt-on lead fin-keel (either shoal or deep) and a spade rudder not that much different from the 2-24 or original 25. Minor correction to your posting. Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD"1979 O'DAY Day Sailerformerly co-owner of "NODROG"1970 CAL 21 On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 15:57:09 -0400 "'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats]" <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> writes: It can be a tough call, Allen. The Cal 25 (flat deck, yes I know that some call it a raised deck) has a fin keel that is integral to the hull and has a deep bilge. A one ton (+/-) lead slug was dropped into the keel mold.. Rudder is spade (detached from the keel). I believe this is the same arrangement as the original Cals 24, 28, 34, and 40. Early on, many said that Lapworth’s Cal 40 spade rudder design was not seaworthy and would fall apart. That was before the Cal 40 became famous as the king (queen?) of the TransPac. Take Care Charlie Annapolis (MD) From: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 3:08 PM To: Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com; he… [at] sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [Cal_Boats] Keel/rudder configurations (was 1966 Cal 30 Rudder Post) I was confused about the definitions of full keel and fin keel. A full keel boat has the hull going down into the keel and probably has a very deep bilge. My L-36 has a canoe hull and a fin keel which is attached to the bottom of the boat with bolts. My bilge is very shallow. My rudder is attached to the fin keel and the keel is fairly long, not like modern fin keel boats which is why I was confused. I have no idea which kind of keel the Cal boats have. Allen L-36..com Lapworth 36 #5 On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM 'he… [at] sbcglobal.net' he… [at] sbcglobal.net [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: We owned a cal 30, with that "barndoor" rudder, at the same time as our 29 and our 36. The 30 needs 30 acres just to "turn that rig around" the 29 and 36 feel like turning on a dime comparatively speaking. The 30 is a lovely sturdy comfortable boat. Not too good in a tight fairway for maneuvers. Helen Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 8:52 AM, ccampbell cc… [at] lsnm.org [Cal_Boats] <Ca… [at] yahoogroups.com> wrote: On 8/10/2019 12:46 AM, 'Charlie Husar' hu… [at] gmail.com [Cal_Boats] wrote: In the Annapolis Good Old Boat Regatta, we have racing classes called Fin Keel and Full Keel. Albeit there are many hybrid designs, the basic difference we use is whether the rudder is attached to the keel (full keel) or not (fin keel). I never knew that the Cal 30-1 was a full keel. Thanks for the info. The photo made me wonder about fin keel vs "full keel" and the functional differences. I usually think of traditional full keel vessels as having a greater wetted surface. Charlie mentions "hybrid" designs and the Cal 30 photo suggests that--a smaller full keel than we normally see associated with that term. The wetted surface is reduced. \ Fin keel/spade rudder vessels have some steering advantage, don't they, based on the fin as a pivot point and the rudder being farther aft for a sort of lever effect. But I don't know enough about hydrodynamics and steering effectiveness of attached rudder and spade rudder. It also occurs to me that a full keel, attached rudder vessel might get a bit more lift when the helm is to weather a bit as it usually is. I've got one of each. The Cal 20 has its transom hung rudder, about as far aft of the fin as possible. She turns on a dime. My other boat, the old Seafarer, has a full keel with a literal barn-door rudder--a big rectangular thing hung on the after end of the keel, and the whole of keel and rudder making an elongated foil shape with rudder in neutral position. So I'm curious if anybody can illuminate the extent of the differences and whether that Cal 30 configuration captures the best of each concept or maybe the worst.... Chris Campbell Cal 20 # 1220; Seafarer Polaris #13 Meghan Markle Confirms Unfortunate News track.volutrk.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3142/5d523c873d3633c874d90st02duc